Alticor Media Blog

Alticor Media Blog is the official news weblog from the Alticor family of companies.

February 8th, 2008 @ 11:24 pm ET…

Nitro: Case dismissed

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Happy to report to you that the Nitro case in Missouri has been dismissed by a federal judge.

The ruling itself is under seal at this point, so we can’t discuss or quote the specific findings and conclusions — at least, not yet.

But the fact that the case has been dismissed is a matter of public record. So we decided to share the news because this was one of those cases where the trial lawyers on the other side made sliming us publicly part of their legal strategy. It’s a terribly cynical approach, designed to intimidate the company and shake the confidence of our business owners.

No surprise that the losing trial lawyers were from Shughart Thomson & Kilroy — the same people who launched last year’s failed TEAM California lawsuit with a barrage of press releases and bluster, and then watched a judge dismiss that case as well. At this point, the firm’s credibility in speaking about our company matches their record of success in court.

We’re angry at the way they attempted to rattle our friends who are out there every night building Quixtar businesses. We’re pleased that the judge saw their case had no merit.

There was also a ruling this week in a separate case, known as Morrison, where an appeals court reversed and remanded an earlier lower court ruling. It’s the latest step in a long, long fight that we remain confident of winning. The ruling does not say that Morrison is right about any of his claims. It only says that he gets a do-over of the arbitration he lost in 2004.

And another important point: Contrary to some of the spinners out there, the ruling hinges on the fact that the dispute is so very old—beginning before 1998, before we even had an arbitration program. Therefore, the effect of this ruling on our current arbitration program and current cases (a shrinking list, given the Nitro dismissal) is virtually zero. If someone’s telling you otherwise, don’t buy the hype.

Filed by: Corporate Communications

Posted in: Alticor, Amway, Quixtar, Transformation

165 Responses to “Nitro: Case dismissed”

Marnie Says:
February 9th, 2008 at 1:02 am
Keep spinnin’ folks.

BTW, I just saw the movie “Michael Clayton.” It reminded me WAAAYYY too much of another company–one in Western Michigan.
Tex Says:
February 9th, 2008 at 1:30 am
My reading of the court decision indicated it hinged on the Davidson case, in which the arbitration process could be changed unilaterally, and was deemed unfair. I believe this is how the Quixtar rules/arbitration process are still worded, which seems to cancel the legality of the current arbitration process as well. This agrees with the “unconscionable” Judge Dorr decision, although the reasons may not be identical.

Also, I don’t see it as a do-over of arbitration, rather that arbitration does not apply, because the events happened before arbitration was put into place. So the next step is a jury court case, right?

Spinning is one thing, counter spinning is another.
john Says:
February 9th, 2008 at 3:14 am
Great spin to only mention Nitro. What about Netco, Brig Hart, the Missouri judge who also said that Alticor’s arbitration is “unconcsionable and unenforcable”. And in this case it has nothing to do with how old the suit is. It has to do with the fact that Amway hand trained, hand picked and had the ability to dismiss the socalled “neutral” arbitrators from JAMS. It is heartbreaking that you continue to spin the tools problems when BWW, WWDB, etc continue to deceive innocent young people. You well know of their lies, deceptions and tools empires. FOr goodness sakes, how many more young prople will you allow to be indoctrinated into their cult like tactics? Relationships are destroyed in great numbers because you continue to allow this. I hope you will stop with the “pretend” accreditation and transformation measures, and just put a stop to the Britts and Puryears destroying peoples lives. I am not a part of TEAM or a disgruntled former IBO. I am am man who has watched this first hand.
Eric (AEM) Says:
February 9th, 2008 at 3:33 am
If you were looking for people to work with in business, say you were looking for a MLM business to join. You found Alticor somehow, checked out their website, clicked on the blog and read this entry, or the “just go, team” entry. Would the tone and lanuage attract you to working with Alticor or make you cross them off your list?
Tex Says:
February 9th, 2008 at 10:03 am
The Nitro case also focused on non-IBO’s, as only IBO’s are subject to arbitration in the first place. So the implications on IBO’s are much less than if Nitro was about IBO’s/former IBO’s.

It should also be noted both the Nitro and Morrison cases are based on the tool scam, and the unopposed claims in these lawsuits pointed to MA$$IVE profits being made via the tool scam.

Fix the tool scam and there is no need for court cases, arbitration proceedings, terminations, resignations, etc. Most other court cases over the years are also based on the tool scam.

Rich DeVos got it right in 1983 with his “Directly Speaking” recordings. The current A/Q view thinks the tool scam is “free enterprise at work”, thinks tools are optional, etc., but ignores the FACTS:

1. Most IBO’s do not have a business background,

2. Are sponsored by friends/relatives where a preexisting relationship and therefore a high level of trust exists,

3. Are encouraged not to read the rules, as the upline has the interest of the IBO in mind,

4. Are told the upline doesn’t make money until the IBO does (an obvious crock, as most money is made on tools),

5. Are told (and it’s true) the rules are confusing, just listen to the upline,

6. Many upline earned their pin at one time, and depend on the tool scam profit for their lifestyle, which in many cases exceeds the pin they wear, let alone their current Quixtar income.

A/Q has statements regarding tool profit that are so general they have no practical meaning. Quixtar may be covering themselves legally, but they are morally and ethically bankrupt, in my opinion.
Scott Larsen Says:
February 9th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
The Fifth Circuit noted that the dispute at issue arose from conduct that occurred before there was an arbitration agreement, but importantly, this was not the reason why the arbitration agreement was unenforceable against Morrison. Rather, because Amway continued to have the right to revoke or modify it at will, the entire arbitration agreement was unenforceable under Texas law. The court concluded:

“There is nothing in any of the relevant documents which precludes amendment to the arbitration program – made under Amway’s unilateral authority to amend its Rules of Conduct – from eliminating the entire arbitration program or its applicability to certain claims or disputes so that once notice of such an amendment was published mandatory arbitration would no longer be available even as to disputes which had arisen and of which Amway had notice prior to the publication.”

I guess I read the court document different than the Blog master here does…..
sak Says:
February 9th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
WOW, that is calling the kettle black, like the legal team at Amway/Alticor are way above spinning the “truth” that is all they have been doing for the past 6 months. Give me a break get rid of the holier than thou attitude.
G Says:
February 9th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Tex -

We may have traveled different roads to arrive - but your destination (as described at end of post #5 here) is the same as mine.
G Says:
February 9th, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Oh Scott -

The blogmaster here is not allowed to read or interpret anything independently - we’re talking about Corp Legal/damage control here - these are the same folks who are out to “protect” IBOs - balderdash … the ONLY thing they’re looking to protect is their bosses gravy train and their own retainers/paychecks.

I’d be concerned about the former - I’d say the latter should be no problem for awhile …
Tex Says:
February 9th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
john #3,

There have been changes made to the arbitration process since these cases. Whether the changes go far enough to cross the line from unconscionable to neutral is another question. The only way to settle this question is obviously in a court of law.

Eric #4,

I wouldn’t make a decision based on 2 isolated blog entries.

Scott #6,

I agree, I think admin should correct their error.
JimZ Says:
February 9th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Given the incredible ill will, ongoing litigation, governmental crackdowns, etc - at what point does Alticor concede (at least internally, if not publically) that the “tool business” is a cancer that is killing this business. And realize that it must be shut down at all costs.

With each passing month it becomes clear that the free flow of information on the Internet is devastating the reputation of Quixtar. It truly is only “insiders” who buy their uplines explanation that the Internet is like a bathroom wall.

THIS bathroom wall has posted legal documents, outcomes, and an overwhelming body of anti-Quixtar stories that, taken as a whole, paint an unsavory view of this business. There simply CANNOT be THAT many liars who are spending their time fabricating the consistent stories you can google in less than ten minutes.

Rich Devos caved in 1983 after Britt and other system owners dropped their sales by a few hundred million dollars. Now the sins of the father are being visited on their sons. I am sure continued flat growth in US (you may have hit a Billion, but you are losing ground) will make the losses of 1983 look like a bargain.

Shut down these parasites. The vast majority of people who sign up in Quixtar in these systems absolutely lose money. I spent over $5,000 annual (in one year about $10,000) on “system” costs. Now that I see how much of that went into the pockets of these leaders who “only make money if I make money” the only words I can use to describe this busines are “unethical” “misleading” “barely legal” “manipulative” and “dream pimps- prostituting people who are willing to trust because they hope the American dream is true”

You CANNOT stop the truth from spreading. It’s time to “grow a pair” and eliminate the tool scam.
Eric (AEM) Says:
February 9th, 2008 at 5:01 pm
tex,
Those are the first two that came to mind. Really you could pick any two, all the blogs have basically the same adolescent tone.
Tex Says:
February 10th, 2008 at 12:10 am
G #8,

The difference is I haven’t arrived at my destination. I will “arrive” at my first stop when the tool scam is history, and will then continue on my ongoing journey to build my A/Q business.
hartazo Says:
February 10th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
ALTICOR IS SUCH A HYPOCRITE!!!!!!
In the article above, you state, “So we decided to share the news because this was one of those cases where the trial lawyers on the other side made sliming us publicly part of their legal strategy. It’s a terribly cynical approach, designed to intimidate the company and shake the confidence of our business owners.”

Alticor has done exactly that in the Team case. If anyone doesn’t believe me, just read the blog, entry on this site, “Just Go, Team.” That was just the first of many smear attempts by Alticor.
Former IBO Says:
February 10th, 2008 at 6:45 pm
I must say…I am truly amazed at how unprofessional you people really are. You continue to ignore my posts and delete those you do not like, do not agree with, or can’t answer. Truly amazing. Is there something you are trying to hide here? If you have something to say or complain about..speak up right here on your own forum. Don’t delete posts and hide. Come out with it…even if it is “We will respond later”. At least that is an acknowledgement.

Incase you need it again and you accidentally deleted it…here it is again.

From what I see…you guys still have several Federal cases pending against you. Seems as though that you also have more than one Nitro case against you.

Niro vs Alticor in NC 10/29/2007.
Niro vs Alticor in GA 10/04/2007.
*Looks like you have more to do.
**Of course it should be noted to all here that you (Quixtar) are suing Brig & Lita Hart (Nitro) down in Florida in Federal court, 01/29/2008. As well as Merritt (12/28/07), Revell (12/26/07), and Kalb (12/21/07). All these are of course in Florida.

Anyway..continuing..

I see Kalb vs Quixtar in FL 11/16/07.
Young vs Quixtar in GA 09/21/2007.
Anderson vs Amway/Quixtar in FL 09/05/07.
Robinson vs Quixtar in AZ 08/30/07.
Walker vs Quixtar in TX 08/27/07.
Lawrence vs Quixtar in PA 08/27/07.
Fish vs Quixtar in NH 08/21/07.
Crooks vs Quixtar in SC 08/20/07.
Stewart(*) vs Quixtar in MO 07/13/07.
(*)that being Kenny Stewart one of your bigger Crowns and Brig and Lita Hart, one of your biggest Double Diamonds I believe.

I guess that is enough for now. Please do tell us something about the above cases and how it is going there.

Remember..silence on the issues/questions put before you is not becoming of you. Not that your silence admits guilt…it just does not show innocence either.

By the way..speaking of your silence..I am still waiting for you at:

(#35)
http://media.alticorblogs.com/2008/02/06/bigger-and-better/#comments

and

(#48)
http://media.alticorblogs.com/2008/01/25/while-we-were-out/#comments

I will continue to await for your responses.

Former IBO
Tex Says:
February 10th, 2008 at 8:19 pm
Admin,

Speaking of lawsuits and arbitration, I have a cassette tape made in 2002 by Orrin where he clearly states most of the products available from Quixtar are competitively priced. Let me know if you are interested. You have my e-mail.
hartazo Says:
February 10th, 2008 at 10:02 pm
#16 Tex,
Apparently, you have not read the entire claim by Woodward and the other 8 that resigned from Quixtar on August 9th, 2007. (Yes, they resigned first. Q just spun it to look like they were terminated.) In the claim, they stated that Q’s prices are NO LONGER competitively priced. This is now 2008, you state the tape was made in 2002. Q has chosen to not lower their prices to get competitive in those 6 years.
Alticor Media Blog Administrator Says:
February 10th, 2008 at 10:07 pm
Former IBO: For the record, it’s rare that we ‘accidentally’ delete comments on this blog. We are more than happy to post your comments and have so above.

As for your direct questions to us, it is up to Corporate Communications to respond. You ask good questions, and other people that post to this blog may provide you with additional insight.

Tex: I’ll pass your offer onto Legal. I’m sure we have an old cassette deck somewhere around WHQ.

Scott: G is correct—as Admin, I can’t speak to the issues so much as I can respond to technical concerns with the blog itself. However, the blog team here did receive the following from Legal:

Many are reading the Rules and the Opinion incorrectly. There is an exception for the arbitration clause in Rule 11 (the IBOAI quotes the Rule correctly in their post). Amway cannot change the arbitration clause without consent and has negotiated with the IBOAI in when it wanted to amend the arbitration provisions to improve them. The Court missed this provision of Rule 11. We hope they will ultimately recognize this. Otherwise a “do-over” could involve another arbitration or a trial.

Tex, again: What do you mean by ‘error’ exactly?
john Says:
February 10th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
Please? I don’t know how else I can ask. Will you please risk losing some income for a season to do what is right? The number one black eye Alticor has is the abusive greeedy tools kingpins. I am certain you know it. You are well aware that thousands upon thousands of people are being told from stages that they can “have financial freedom in 2-5 years, make over 50,000 in their first year, become diamond & live in mansions and drive luxury cars” if they follow the “PROVEN” system. You know that the videod mansions come mostly from tools money. You know it. And young people, single moms, and struggling families are fed this diet of deceit on a very regular basis by Puryear, Britt, etc. You know it and you continue to bless it by your willingness to allow it to go on even now. Yes there are Dream nights, Spring Leaderships, FEDs, regional rallies, Family Reunions and the list goes on and on. The kingpins keep deceiving and you keep posting how a case here or there is dismissed or whatever. Your business could grow like wildfire if you would shut down the deception of the so called IBOAI and the kingpins it represents. From someone whose life was devestated by WWDB deception.
G Says:
February 11th, 2008 at 12:06 am
ABMA -

Would legal be telling you about the SAME IBOAI that voted 100% against the name change back to Amway that they’re now touting as the “check and balance” for arbitration?

Those the same barristers who explain that IBOAI has a strictly advisory role with no real decision-making authority?

Mark Twain once expounded one of the advantages of telling the truth was you never had to remember what “your “story” was.

Can’t wait to see the fallout as these distortions turn into a pile of ca ca in their hands (at their own hands, I might add).
G Says:
February 11th, 2008 at 12:14 am
Hey Tex -

As long as they’re listening to your offer of Orin pre-IBOAI enlightenment - why not send along a copy of Rich’s ‘83 talk(s) so they can use for comedic relief.
Justice Says:
February 11th, 2008 at 10:21 am
I am disappointed at seeing so much crap and hate spewed by the people negative of Quixtar.
No, the “bidnezz” as they like to call it, doesn’t work and they try to prove as to why it can’t. Once they run out of arguments to prove it, they focus on the educational system they call “brainwashing cult”, and try to prove why it’s a pyramid on top of being a cult.
Once they run out of arguments to prove it, they refocus on proving why the “pyramid bidnezz don’t work” again and so on.
These people truly are idiots. Instead of focusing on their own daily lives, they focus on a business opportunity that they call “a guarantee of easy money and fake dreams” and are not even part of; they became experts overnight in as much as per statement of this business being “an easy guarantee”. This business is not a guarantee but an opportunity and thus so is being becoming an expert in something.
When will Alticor start to seriously crack down on these “experts” and teach them a long term lesson?
Utah Says:
February 11th, 2008 at 10:38 am
So, If I am reading correctly, for the last several years, The Arbitration Agreement couldn’t be changed without the mutual agreement of the IBOAI.

That statement misses the point. The Rules of Conduct as a whole, are not to be changed without the IBOAI. There is an exception for changes required by law. That exception appears to be abused.

The perception is that changes have been to the Rules and the Plan without the approval of the IBOAI and the proper notification of the IBOs.

Even IF the perception is not true, and I haven’t seen anything to change it, 2007 is the year that anyone involved with Q/A learned the IBOAI could be ran over by the corporation. That there was little or no protection against changing the rules.

It is my contention, that the rules, which are part of the contract with IBOs, should not be able to be changed without proper notice. Even credit card companies have to mail you changes to the agreement, with an opt-out if you don’t agree. Just posting the current version online, which might be allowed per contract, may not be allowed by US or state laws. If this contention is true, than much of the current agreement with IBOs would be thrown out by any reasonable judge.
DLSChicago Says:
February 11th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
XS was competetively priced 2 years ago. It no longer is.
Tom in Atlanta Says:
February 11th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
I hear the same people over and over again complaining about tool issues. Don’t you ever get tired of all your own whinning?!

On this page, you will see the following address to that subject.

https://www.quixtar.com/about/content.aspx?pid=9897&ctg=16306

“The IBO organization you may become involved in also provides training and motivation in the field. You may be offered Business Support Materials (BSMs) that are independent of Quixtar, including DVDs, CDs, books, websites, seminars and business conventions. Many IBOs find these BSMs useful as they build their businesses, but they are completely optional, so it’s your decision. Just so you know, some IBOs earn income from the sale of these BSMs apart from their earnings through the Quixtar IBO Compensation Plan.

No one may pressure you to buy or use BSMs. Whether or not you purchase these materials, your sponsoring IBO is still obliged to provide you with training and support. Your own good judgment should guide you in deciding what is best for your independent business, considering among other things the cost, benefit, and time commitment associated with the purchase and use of BSMs.”

So, you want to end your tool misery? Stop buying them!!! Stop whinning and build your business.

Can’t you see that the corp. is already addressing the issue with the development of Quixtar University, Achieve magazine, opportunity brochures, blogs and websites? I’ve also read that the corp. is going to start doing more conventions of thier own all around the country.

Those are all great ways to share your business with others and train them how to build the business without participating in your upline’s tool business.

Instead of focusing all your attention on what isn’t working for you, why don’t you just find some things that you can work with and build your business that way?

At the end of the tool business mess, you are still going to have to get off your butt and go talk to someone. Sitting here blogging about all the reasons why you can’t build your business and what everyone else is doing isn’t going to build your business. You are not helping yourself nor anyone else by complaining.

This business has never been better than is right now, today! With all the other things that are involved in ‘the transformation’, our business is only going to get better…with or without you.

With kindest regards,

Tom in Atlanta

.
Justice Says:
February 11th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Tom, you are right. People should make their own choices and live by the ensuing consequences. Whinnying like wet sissies not only doesn’t help one but deedifies others around too. Yet, these people say that they just express their opinions and don’t even remotely intend to convince others to quit. Yet, I once met one such individual online who said that regardless of what Quixtar does “we will turn up like bad coins do”.
Josh Says:
February 11th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Want to see the reputation really go down the crapper?

Here is how, eliminate all BSMs (good and bad)

Let several IBOs who are not using a system, sponsor several IBOs who are not on a system. Have them try to run this business with no experience and the snowball effect happens.

You will have far more frustrated angry people than what you do now.
JimZ Says:
February 11th, 2008 at 6:02 pm
To: #22 Justice:

Instead of demonizing the critics you just might want to look at the merits of their arguments.

You said:

“These people truly are idiots. Instead of focusing on their own daily lives, they focus on a business opportunity that they call “a guarantee of easy money and fake dreams” and are not even part of; they became experts overnight in as much as per statement of this business being “an easy guarantee”. This business is not a guarantee but an opportunity and thus so is being becoming an expert in something.”

In fact, many of us HAVE BEEN a part of this business - in many cases, like mine, for a VERY VERY long time.

I originallty signed up in John Crowe/Bill Britts business in 1980 and remained signed up year after year until 1997, having risen as high as 4000 pv. During this time the big pins repeatedly claimed that the tool business was operated “at cost”, that they “didn’t make a dime” off of the tool business, and that they didn’t make money unless we made money first.

When I finally quit, I assumed it was my fault and that everything they said was true.

I joined again in 2003, was active for two years and finally resigned end of last year (a little over one month ago.

In March of 2006 I had an epiphany. My upline repeatedly warned us to never read the “negative” on the Internet - and now I can understand why. I read “Merchants of Deception” and chills ran down my spine. From more than 20 years of personal experience in this “bidnezz” it rang true - and from this starting point, I was able to quickly piece together the reality of this business.

The “Internet revolution”, according to the big pins, was supposed to usher in a “Power Wave” of growth. Instead, it ushered in an unmasking of the deceptions that the big pins have been able to keep under wraps with some potent control mechanisms, such as not fraternizing cross-line, not speaking negative, “edifying” even when the truth simply didn’t match up to the editification.

The REAL internet revolution is the free flow of REAL FACTS that indict this business over and over again. From actual documents we learn the truth - that the tool business is the REAL business of Quixtar.

For more than TWENTY years I saw family after family religiously re-up annually, spend thousands of dollars each year on books, tapes and fuinctions, and year after year they never progressed with their business.

If you want to say that the “real winners” make it in this business, and the rest are “losers” then I question your math aptitude. Out of literally hundreds of thousands of north american distributors, a pitiful few achieve Emerald, let alone Diamond.

If there seems to be a lot of people willing to invest time to write long missives like this, then perhaps you may want to consider what motivates such passion? The fact is there are thousands upon thousands of people who are incredibly PISSED OFF at having been misled, lied to, and taken advantage of.

You insinuate that anyone can make it if they really try. The “critics” arguments is that there must be SOME demonstrable proof that what you are claiming is true some reasonable percentage of the time in order for your claims to be ethical.

1. Two to five years, ten to fifteen hours a week, and a six figure income from achieving the Diamond level. This claim is repeated NIGHT AFTER NIGHT, year after year, in living rooms and meeting halls throughout North America - since AT LEAST 1980 (when I joined).

NOT ONE PERSON IN NORTH AMERICA HAS EVER GONE DIAMOND WORKING THIS BUSINESS 40-60 hours a month WITHIN FIVE YEARS. NOT ONE - NEVER - EVER. Just listen to the tapes - ANYONE who went Diamond put in four times that amount of work OR MORE - and those who made it STILL often took ten or more years. Think about this. There are, I believe, at least a half million US distributors. Attrition rate is far in excess of 50%. Since just 1980 there must be over TEN MILLION people who have been exposed to this business. NOT ONE HAS ACHIEVED what the 2-5 year/ 10-15 hr per week plan claims.

THAT is not a “hypothetical example” - it is a BALDFACED LIE.

As is the claim (which big pins constantly said at LEAST through the late 1980’s that they don’t make any money off the tools.

Critics are pissed off because so many good and ethical people get into this business and choose to BELIEVE the people who are leading them. They don’t intend to be unethical and liars - but they are made to be by the big pins who hide the truth and use classic manipulation techniques to prevent people from seeing the reality of the business.

I have said it before and will do so again. The big pins claim to be the saviors of this business - when in reality they are a cancer.

Rich Devos intended this business to provide a reasonable income for people willing to work. The big pins came in and, based on the promise of riches, they have FINANCIALLY RAPED their downline and then, when people quit in exhaustion, they demonize them.

I don’t know how they sleep at night.
FormerIBO2 Says:
February 11th, 2008 at 9:52 pm
Admin: When are you going to answer Former IBO questions? Why do you avoid answering the questions that matter?
Tex Says:
February 11th, 2008 at 9:53 pm
JimZ #11,

Well written. As I have said on many occasions, the facts and logic have to produce more pain to keep the status quo than to change. When this happens, so does change. Keep applying the facts and logic regarding the tool scam.

Eric #12,

I have much less of an issue with the “Just GO, TEAM” than I do with this one. You don’t have to read more than a sentence or two of the “Just GO, TEAM” post to realize it isn’t directed towards ALL IBO’s who were on TEAM, just some of their leadership. If you make decisions based entirely on headlines, please stay away from newspapers, there are misleading headlines in those all the time. The current thread includes what I consider an error in the major reason the higher court overturned the lower court ruling.
Tex Says:
February 11th, 2008 at 10:04 pm
hartazo #14/17,

That wasn’t smearing TEAM, it was being accurate with their misbehavior.

Prices haven’t changed that much compared to the competition in the past 6 years.

Admin #18,

It isn’t the courts’ job to interpret the complex Quixtar rules, it is your lawyers job to explain the rules to the court. Having the IBOAI involved in changes is like having the fox guard the hen house. Especially now, with the IBOAI on their “best behavior” after losing many of their fellow TEAM tool scamming buddies.

Regarding the error, see my post, #2. It appears the IBOAI clause has been added to nullify the Davidson criteria, but as I said above, I consider this the fox guarding the hen house.

I think you have stated the case may go to arbitration or a jury, but I think the timing of this case and the issue of lack of IBOAI arbitration involvement in approving changes when these events occurred, will put it in front of a jury.
Tex Says:
February 11th, 2008 at 10:13 pm
john #19,

You are right. Keep up the pressure. The corp needs to hear these points over and over again from as many IBO’s as possible. I can assure you they still don’t “get it”.

G #20,

I think the issue is less about whether the IBOAI has approval authority when it comes to the narrow issue of arbitration, and more to do with whether the IBOAI represents IBO’s. The IBOAI does NOT present me, as they are far too concerned about maintaining their tool profits than any other issue.

I’ve mentioned the Rich DeVos recordings several times, and they are available online. I think A/Q is making a huge mistake by not following through on the ideas contained in those recordings, and have stated that several times as well.
Tex Says:
February 11th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
Justice #22,

Are you saying it’s okay to lie about the tool scam when the business is shown to prospects?

Utah #23,

Only the narrow issue of the arbitration process is subject to approval from the IBOAI, not the rest of the rules.

DLS #24,

You are correct, but this is only one product.

Tom #25,

The information you are referring to is completely inadequate in addressing the tool scam. It does not recognize the practical issues involved with the tool scam. Theory is not reality.
Utah Says:
February 12th, 2008 at 12:12 am
Tex, #32. No, they have to put ALL changes (unless required by law) to the IBOAI. They have recently changed this, NOT to allow posting updated Rules online to count - they have to provide to IBOs copies of the changes prior to them taking affect. That is good news.

The bad news is that for many of the past changes, including the 6 month and 2 year rules, and even this latest change, that has not happened. Right at the beginning of the Current Rules you see..

“From time to time, the contents of these documents are changed. The Corporation will, prior to final action, submit to the IBOA International Board for discussion, evaluation, and recommendation changes within these documents which may materially affect IBOs including, but not limited to, changes to the IBO Plan, IBO agreements, and modifications to the Rules of Conduct for IBOs; …(changes required by law)….Upon final notification by the Corporation with respect to those changes presented to the IBOA International Board, such changes will be communicated to all IBOs in a timely manner in official Corporation literature, and shall become effective upon publication. In order to preserve the goals and purposes of the IBO Plan, the Corporation reserves to itself the sole right to adopt, amend, modify, supplement, or rescind any or all of these Rules, as necessary with respect to cases of Rules enforcement. In the event the Corporation deprives an IBO of a substantial and material property right through such adoption, amendment, modification, supplementation, or rescission, such IBO shall have the right to bring such matter to the attention of the IBOA International Board for further discussion, evaluation, and recommendation.”

They have posted, as you are aware, proposed changes to event sales on the Quixtar blog website. I don’t remember reading the proposed rule changes inside the Feb. magazine, but I could have missed it.
Eric (AEM) Says:
February 12th, 2008 at 1:02 am
Tex,
“You don’t have to read more than a sentence or two of the “Just GO, TEAM” post to realize it isn’t directed towards ALL IBO’s who were on TEAM, just some of their leadership”.

You’re right. But apparently the messege got lost in the delivery because I’m not the only one upset about the blog. It’s really hard to talk trash and lie about somebody to the people who respect them without pissing those people off.
If they cared about the thousands of IBO’s on Team they would not have even brought Team up. Think about it, they never had to. Of course “Just Go, Team” is a lot more dramatic and gripping. But if you’re willing to piss off thousands of your IBO’s to be dramatic and gripping in a headline you need to reconsider your priorities.

“If you make decisions based entirely on headlines, please stay away from newspapers, there are misleading headlines in those all the time”.

The aspect I’m taking issue with is the tone and the lanuage. For the third time. Not two isolated blogs and not just the headlines.
Eric (AEM) Says:
February 12th, 2008 at 1:16 am
Quixtar VS. Amazon.com

DIAPERS
Quixtar
Tumblers
Size 4
120 diapers
$40.99

Amazon.com
Pampers
Size 4
120 diapers
$27.60

Don’t worry, it’s just one (more) product.
FormerIBO2 Says:
February 12th, 2008 at 2:18 am
Tex, Just say it… “I am a blogger not a builder of the business” Just say it, come to grips with the fact that you love to complain but you have never built and never will build a business. You are an expert on why something doesn’t work for you… you have no success with Q and you never will.
William Says:
February 12th, 2008 at 2:51 am
I am a proud active IBO that IS building the business. However, Tom, while Quixtar rules say that “but they are completely optional, so it’s your decision. Just so you know, some IBOs earn income from the sale of these BSMs apart from their earnings through the Quixtar IBO Compensation Plan.

No one may pressure you to buy or use BSMs.”

In reality, they are presented to IBOs as non-optional (”winners do what it takes”, “losers are afraid of investment) and you absolutely are pressured to purchase and take part in BSMs.

As an IBO, I wish Quixtar would enforce their own rules, and help out some of us that DO want to build the business, do appreicate the support materials but could do without the pressure tactics we’re exposed too.

Keep in mind I like and use “tools”, and if some make income off of them, I don’t mind. But let me be the judge of how much money I want to invest in them.
john Says:
February 12th, 2008 at 3:07 am
Tom, Justice and Josh #25, 26, 27;
All over the northwest this week, brand new young prospects will be told in living rooms and at restaurants that here is a business opportunity that they can “EXPECT” to earn over $50,000 in thier first year and then within 2-5 years they can live a diamond lifestyle with mansions and boats. These people are being lied to from day one. They absolutel cannot expect to earn $50,000 in their first year. Then they are told the way to do is to be on the “proven” system of success. This again is a lie. The success rate of IBOs is miserable. So I certainly respect your decision to be in any system you like, but I am way too familiar with the lies and deceptions of BWW and WWDB. Their greed takes much money out of the pockets of young people who have trusting hearts that are lied to. As for me, I hope there is nothing taken personal. I am commenting on the issues.
Tex Says:
February 12th, 2008 at 3:56 am
Justice #26,

Tom is dead wrong. It isn’t whining when one is relating the facts and logic regarding the tool scam.

Josh #27,

Don’t be foolish, you don’t have to throw the baby out with the bath water. Just clean up the scam. Simple.
Tex Says:
February 12th, 2008 at 10:09 am
Admin #18,

Because of technical issues, I am unable to play this beyond about 3 minutes, but I am told Orrin mentions how great Quixtar prices are in this 2003 video.
Justice Says:
February 12th, 2008 at 12:19 pm
JimZ, that is your personal story, stick to it, live it but no one is interested in such a story that sounds like a soap opera. I don’t relate to it because none of that drama did happen. I was openly told that it’s an opportunity, that it takes work and effort and that there is money to be made in the tools at Platinum level and above. I have no problems with any of these whatsoever. Please, stop acting the drama singer. What is with this magic 4000 PV? I see nothing magic about it.

TeX, you are one obsessed individual with the “tool scam”, the living substance of the “motivational cult pyramid”. The tools have a great purpose to motivate and provide facts. Most people have no problem with that. Some do. Those who do think they know better but when their business growth is in question, the blame the tools.

Eric (AEM), if you live below your means than naturally, you do focus on the price only. How about focusing on the business? Sounds like a better deal. Then, when you have growth, you will no longer focus on the price only.

FormerIBO2, your questions are not answered because you don’t care, you only look to act like a moron.

john says that “All over the northwest this week, brand new young prospects will be told in living rooms and at restaurants that here is a business opportunity that they can “EXPECT” to earn over $50,000 in thier first year and then within 2-5 years they can live a diamond lifestyle with mansions and boats.”

You forgot to add in the end the following:

“if they are willing to follow a mentorship system so to listen, learn and do for by not putting in some work and some effort, they won’t be able to have a strong long term business and should not even remotely “EXPECT” that to happen.”

That’s not a lie. Your incomplete statement was closer to being a lie. Did you make it on purpose?

“They absolutel cannot expect to earn $50,000 in their first year. The success rate of IBOs is miserable.”

Again, just because you made an incomplete, self deceiving statement that you believe in, you get to actually live that statement. No wonder your success rate fell within the miserable level of those who like you, believed in that incomplete, self deceiving statement.
G Says:
February 12th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
“Because of technical issues, I am unable to play this beyond about 3 minutes, but I am told Orrin mentions how great Quixtar prices are in this 2003 video.”

Mommy Mommy — My best friend’s mother’s cousin’s mailman told me Orrin said Poopie - Orrin said Poopie - Orrin said Poopie

Technical issues indeed - HUB is properly categorized as a SIGHT disorder.
Brad Obert Says:
February 12th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
A bit of a joke if you ask me. I too shared the plan with alot of folks and explained about pricing. So what. When RedBull was new it was more expensive than it is now. I can buy it for 1/3 of the cost of XS at Sams. So tape recording me in 2003 you’d have the same comments. I guess you’re not interested in whole truths, just interjecting here and there to support your weak stance. Interesting that you’re adjusting pricing overseas though.

Do you think that perhaps anyone/everyone commenting here probably said something in the past that could be replayed now to their discredit? Even though when taped, could have been true and changed since? How about applying a little bit of logic here.

Peace,

Brad
Bridgett Says:
February 12th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
#24 DLSChicago
#33 Tex
#36 Eric (AEM)

XS has always been superior to anything on the market.
Now, in addition to no sugar, zero/low carbs, zero/low sugar, and 4900% of Vitamin B12:

*XS has 10 flavors
*XS has 3 caffeine-free versions
*XS offers Peach Tea with 90 mg EGCG (do the research on this powerful antioxidant and metabolism booster)–more than any other drink on the market.
*XS offers a Mixed 12-pack (SKU#74-8178)for the same price as the single-flavor boxes, even though these are hand-packed (very expenseive process)

What exactly are you comparing XS to, that it is no longer competitively priced?
Tex Says:
February 13th, 2008 at 1:49 am
JimZ #28,

JimZ for President.

FormerIBO2 #29,

That isn’t the primary purpose of this blog.

Utah #34,

What do you mean by “put all changes to the IBOAI”? There is nothing in your rule quotes that indicates the IBOAI APPROVES the changes, only they are involved on the level of “discussion, evaluation, and recommendation”. NOT approval.

The sales event change is not a proposed change. It is an actual change that will go into effect in March. The IBOAI did NOT approve this change, but they were informed of the change and were allowed to discuss, evaluate, and make recommendations to Quixtar regarding this change. But the IBOAI does NOT have the approval authority.

Eric #35,

It was an IQ test. You and many others failed. This is an indication of the general intelligence level of the TEAM IBO’s. Just GO, TEAM.

Orrin and Co. started an “illegal pyramid” lawsuit against Quixtar. They needed to hit back hard.
Tex Says:
February 13th, 2008 at 1:52 am
FormerIBO2 #37,

Why would I make all of these claims that are untrue?

William #38,

Quixtar thinks they are doing enough about the tool scam. I am with you, they are doing enough in theory, but not enough in practice. This world doesn’t operate on theory, it operates in practice.

john #39,

You’re right, that’s why it’s called the tool scam.
Josh Says:
February 13th, 2008 at 2:28 am
Eric (AEM),

First, we are not a diapers business. Second, as a parent that uses the tumblers, they are FAR superior to that of pampers, IMO. My son doesn’t wake up soaked every night like he did with pampers (and the more expensive ones at that). Give it a rest and complain elsewhere.

john #39

Well, I do take it personal. Although I am not using the systems you mention, I do know people that do. Never once have I been told what I can “EXPECT” to make in a year, or 10 years for that matter. What I have been told is that if you move volume, customers and/or other businesess, you will make money. Your argument that those systems take people’s money unknowingly is categorically false. It is your opinion, therefore it is not based on facts. I respect your opinion and/or experience but don’t say you are commenting on facts when you nothing to substantiate your claim, aside from personal experience. I guarantee for every “john” that complains he is being taken advantage of, there are just as many that see a value in the system.

Tex,

My comment was not meant to be serious, but just a thought provoking one. You know where I stand on the systems. So I will not comment further on that with you, as I have stated before.

BTW are you jumping ship with TEAM?
Jeffrey Says:
February 13th, 2008 at 1:16 pm
I wanted to see if anything had changed with my upline Diamond (who, incidentally has not changed pins in 20 years and through a very well-known incident several years ago, lost a leg with 5 Diamonds in it) so I subscribed to his website ($6.00 a month x everyone who is on it = BIG $$$$$$$). The first thing I saw was promotion of the next big function with $110 tickets and hotel rooms for $99 a night. Also listed was a NEW function: Spring Leadership. I guess just Fall Leadership along with the three other major functions was not enough $$$ for him and his upline Triple Diamond. Those tickets are $140. Not one thing has changed. I was also told that “all the tools are now online.” Uh-huh. NOT. Just a few things to download and print like a prospect list, which A/Q now has on the Quixtar site. No CDs or DVDs. The guy just can’t force himself to tell the truth. So, nothing has changed. And when I tried to point this out on Ada-Tudes several weeks ago, they never printed it.

Hey Steve and Doug: You want renewed growth? Shut down the tool and function systems once and for all and kick out anybody that doesn’t stop, including Mr. Crown Ambassador 60 FAA Points. He’s the one that started it and he should have been the first to go.

This business is built in the living rooms and around the kitchen tables, not at major functions. It is built when the upline starts a new person and helps them get their first 20 CUSTOMERS, then shows them how to prospect and helps them sponsor their first few IBOs and then shows THEM how to get their first 20 CUSTOMERS. There is not one single meeting outside of A/Q’s conventions that need to be held anywhere other than in someone’s home. Period. It’s what got this company explosive growth from 1959 to 1964 and it is what will start explosive growth all over again. It’s the rule in Vietnam: no meetings with over 10 people in attendance. Sounds like a good rule for the United States. Another rule to bring back: The old Nutrilite rule that you HAD TO HAVE 25 customers before you could sponsor anyone. Bring it back today and watch how things would change. And the only customers that could be counted are the ones that place orders themselves. And make it so that everyone, even Diamonds and Crowns have to meet the customer rules. No customers equals no bonus money. Anything less is baloney.
deann Says:
February 13th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
Yea for us…..Yea, Yea Yea YEA FOR US !!!!!!!!
Steve Johnson Says:
February 13th, 2008 at 11:44 pm
Why are you so consumed with lawsuits and confidentiality clauses? It makes it look like you have something to hide. I am currently an IBO but am really starting to wonder. If Orrin and his group are so bad, why not just let them go? Our business should be strong enough to stand up to competition without needing to aggressively stamp out the competition.

After hearing of all these lawsuits and reading the transcripts, I’m starting to feel less and less independent. I have no current desire to leave. But what happens if my life’s goals change in the future? Will I be pursued in this same manner?
Eric (AEM) Says:
February 14th, 2008 at 2:23 am
Bridgett
You’re right, XS is a far superior drink to anything on the market. I got no problem with XS, I’m not comparing it to anything, there is no comparison

Josh,
You to are right, it’s not just about diapers. The quality argument is a good one. The quality of the products is high and does compensate somewhat for the higher prices. The central problem with the pricing is that it takes away retail as a viable option to make money.

Jeffery,
You make really good points. I like the idea of the 25 customers before registering anyone else, and holding every pin accountable for retail sales. I think it would be cool to have bonuses and founder pins be retail volume dependant not just volume dependant.

Everyone,
Can anybody name any one that was recognized at a pin greater than silver in the last 20 or so years that did not plug into a system and encourage others to do the same?
john Says:
February 14th, 2008 at 4:00 am
Josh # 48,
First,you state that you have NEVER heard of anyone being told they can “expect” to earn $50,000 in thier first year. Then you accost me for supposedly making claims that I cannot substabtiate. I am looking at an official WWDB Private Franchising Review that is used when prospecting. Page 3a “$57,000 is what you can EXPECT after one year with one third the time spent in a regular job.” You need proof trusting young people are being told this lie. Google it and see for yourself.
Second, if you look at the IBOAIs supposed “trade secrets” in their lawsuit against TEAM (which I am not a part of), you will see that what they want hidden from prospects is the horrific attrition rates and that only about 2% of IBOs ever make a profit. Now let’s see, over 98% of IBOs lose money, but these so called Kingpins have the “proven system of success”. When the Wisconsin attorney general investigated all of the directs, he discovered that the average direct was losing about $900 a year.
Personally, any school that only graduated 2% of its students; any team that only won 2% of its games can hardly be called a proven system of success.
Third, Google WWDB 2-5 year plan to achieve diamond and financial freedom. So if about 1 in 13,000 are diamond (look at Quixtar’s own numbers), how can this be a proven system of success.
Fourth, listen to some of the great WWDB diamonds over the last year proclaim, “This is the best business in the world; growing like wildfire, blah, blah, blah when Quixtar comes out now and announces that once again sales have dropped. That sound to me like the masses are being lied to.
Fifth, when trusting people are told they should get on SOT, attend functions, buy the book of the month because this is the “proven system of success” when it is not a proven system of success - then these prospects are having money taking from them through deceit.
Sorry you took it personal but that doesn’t change the truth.
john Says:
February 14th, 2008 at 4:05 am
Bridgett #45,

As the Mayo Clinic reports the human body stores a couple of years worth of Vitamin B12, I am certainly glad that each XS energy drink provides 4900% of the daily recommended allowance. So if you drink one XS a day for a month, you can have enough Vitamin B2 to last somewhere near 50,000 years. This is a great selling point. Not to mention that more than enough Vitamin B12 is found in a normal low calorie diet.
Tex Says:
February 14th, 2008 at 9:52 am
Justice #42,

JimZ’s story is much more common than you imply. Most people have “no problem” with the tool scam because they don’t know how much money is being made, and how the upline makes MUCH more from tools than Quixtar. It’s called bait and switch. It’s unethical and immoral. Your response to John You forgot to add in the end the following:

“if they are willing to follow a mentorship that will produce far more profit than the Quixtar business, a system so to listen, learn and do for by not putting in some work and some effort, they won’t be able to have a strong long term tool scam business and should not even remotely “EXPECT” that to happen.”

That is a lie. Your incomplete statement was closer to being a lie. Did you make it on purpose?

How do you know what John is being told about $50,000 income in the first year? Were you there? Again, just because you made an incomplete, self deceiving statement that you believe in, you get to actually live that statement. No wonder you mislead others with that incomplete, self deceiving statement.
Tex Says:
February 14th, 2008 at 9:59 am
G #43,

I am travelling and have a bad internet connection. Did YOU listen to the entire video? This is the SAME person who sued the corp, claiming high prices have led to an illegal pyramid. This is evidence that would be able to be used in a court. It isn’t hearsay.

Brad #44,

I’m not talking about a single product. You can easily look at the overall pricing of many products and make a judgment regarding changes over the past 5-6 years. I don’t think you’ll find much change.

Bridgett #45,

There are 3 barriers to others buying from you:

1. Changing the source of where they buy from,
2. Price
3. Understanding quality.

When you remove the price competitiveness, it makes the other 2 barriers harder to cross. This is what has happened with XS.
Tex Says:
February 14th, 2008 at 10:07 am
Josh #48,

What makes you think I’m jumping ship with TEAM?

Jeffrey #49,

Are your upline’s Opens and Seminars listed on the web site? If so, would you be willing to post the times/dates on ibonetwork.com?

I don’t agree with shutting down all the tool scams and your other suggestions, just having transparency regarding the profit level would work.
Tex Says:
February 14th, 2008 at 10:08 am
Steve #51,

All you have to do is follow the rules on your way out. Orrin didn’t.
G Says:
February 14th, 2008 at 10:24 am
Steve Johnson #51 -

Count on it …

Perhaps you’ve heard Corp pontificate “No one has EVER left our opportunity and created a successful opportunity after”.

Gives you a warm and fuzzy, huh?

Understanding one of the major impediments is A/Qs desire to “prosecute” their ever-changing RoC - it flies right in the face of Compassionate Capitalism - and is the antithesis of the roots of this very opportunity. It’s protectionism at it’s best - or worst, if you support Free Enterprise.
Eric (AEM) Says:
February 14th, 2008 at 11:20 am
Bridgett 45,
In the mixed packs are you able to pick the flavors and the quantity of each flavor you want? Could I get 1 cola and 11 rootbeer (as a example)?
DLSChicago Says:
February 14th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
XS was competetively priced with the energy drinks that were on the market at the time we began to sell it but the competetive advantage was XS tasted good and was healthier for you.

Now, XS still tastes good but so do other new energy drinks on the market, XS is still healthier for you than most, again, healthier brands are entering the marketplace every day but now XS is not price competetive. Since XS was cost competetive when it came to market, it should continue to strive to maintain it’s market share by remaining cost competetive.
JimZ Says:
February 14th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
Dear Mr. Justice,

I don’t want to distract you with the soap opera drama of my life, so we’ll just talk facts.

BWW, WWDB and other systems typically present the “6-4-2” plan to a brand new prospect as follows: 10-15 hrs per week, 2-5 years, Diamond with a six figure income.

Question 1: Do your mentors also present this “6-4-2” plan?
Question 2: Out of the more than ten million people who have signed up in Amway/Quixtar north america in the last 49 years (my estimate is conservative based on IBOIA statistics, by the way) Please name JUST ONE PERSON OR COUPLE who signed up and, within five years, went Diamond by putting 10-15 hrs per week of effort into this business.

Just one. Just ONE OUT OF TEN MILLION….(insert sound of crickets here).

Call your mentors, ask the Alticor blog meister….(insert sound of crickets here).

No one in north america has EVER done this. Not one, nada, zilch, zero.

That’s called Lying. It is neither moral nor ethical
Chuck Says:
February 14th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Perhaps it’s time to require the tool systems to insert disclosures (similar to those in the QBOB) in all of their Business Suppport Materials showing the actual results of the IBOs on their “proven” systems, ie.: ” __ % of IBOs on CEP achieved the fully qualified Platinum level, with at least $1,500 a month in gross income (after payments to downline IBOs) from Quixtar in the year 2007″.

And how about: ” __ % of IBOs at Platinum and above in 2006 and participating in the system sponsored at least one fully qualified Platinumm leg in the year 2007.”

Along with those two disclosures perhaps there should be one regarding the income earned by system leaders on those same BSMs and functions: “The average gross income from Business Support Materials in XYZ system earned in 2007 by those at Platinum and above was $ ____ , by Emeralds and above was $ ____ , and by Diamonds and above was $ ____ .”

After all, if they offer “proven” systems of success, they ought to be able to “prove” the success that led to that claim (after all, don’t they say the system is a “proven” system of success?); and also that the system income earned by IBO leaders isn’t the tail that wags the dog.

I have a sneaking suspicion that we are going to have different ideas of what “proven” means, similar to the Rhodes Scholar politician who had trouble defining what “is” meant. “Proven system” to me will not mean that 1 in 200 or 300 achieving Platinum while on the system “proves” the system’s viability.
Ex-IBO Says:
February 14th, 2008 at 9:45 pm
The beauty about America is we live in a free country where we all have the choice to work for whomever we choose or operate any legal business we choose. If we choose to stay with A/Q, than great we should focus on building our business. If we choose to quit A/Q and go with another similiar business, than great we should focus on building our other business.

Competition is great for consumers. It keeps prices down when you don’t have a manopoly that has total control.

What is the point in each side putting the other down? Usually, if one has a great product or business one shouldn’t have to put the competition down. Doing so reflects weekness, poor business practice and lack of confidence in what they are representing. A great business welcomes the challences of competition good or bad.

I have run a successful construction company that has been in business since 1955 and I’ve seen many of our competitor’s come and go based on their own lack of good service. I just focused on maintaining and offering the same great service each year which built a well known reputation in our community based on word of mouth advertising. We never once put down our competitors to our customers.

Let’s focus on our business and our goals!

This is a free country last time I checked. Let’s all choose a side and go about our business and stop tearing down our competition.

Worry about building our own business and built it the right way. Don’t worry if your competitor is doing it the wrong way. FOCUS, FOCUS, FOCUS. Let’s put our strong opinions into practice and start running our own business.

Good luck!
Tex Says:
February 14th, 2008 at 10:09 pm
Eric #52,

I never said a system wasn’t necessary, but a tool scam (making big dollars from selling tools and lying about where your profit comes from) isn’t necessary.
Josh Says:
February 14th, 2008 at 10:22 pm
Eric (AEM)

Again you are basing things on your experience. Just because YOU were not able to retail products does not mean everyone has a problem doing it. We do average 600PV every month which close to half is retail, with retail profit. Products range from the diapers to artistry to ribbon to SA8 and yes even XS.

So again, unless you have proof that across the board, in all LOAs retailing isn’t happening, don’t post false facts.

Tex,

No basis, just a question. Haven’t talked to you awhile. How are things outside of the blogosphere?
G Says:
February 15th, 2008 at 12:26 am
Timing is everything Tex -

If you’ll kindly review the timeline of the whole affair, I believe you may find this talk precedes discoveries made once “behind the curtain” at IBOAI. and the public domain court docs also list the timeline of discovery that this talk predates.

I know you’re a straight enough shooter that this could make sense - if you choose to regard it in light of timing.

If not, maybe you feel we can use Rich’s ‘83 talks to put him on the stand now - I believe he was “behind the curtain” all along, right? …
Bridgett Says:
February 15th, 2008 at 12:30 am
#53 john
Do you have a link to the Mayo Clinic study/report that vitamin B is stored in the body for years?

My understanding is that vitamin B is it a water-soluable vitamin and therefore needs to be replenished.

A fat-soluable vitamin (like vitamin A) is what I believed is stored in the body–in the fat cells I believe.

Please point me to that Mayo study/report on the vitamin Bs, particularly B12.

Thanks!
Bridgett Says:
February 15th, 2008 at 12:44 am
#53 john (cont.)
(and #55 Tex)

Oh, and one other thing: being a vegetarian, B12 is not found in my “low calorie” diet. (what “low calorie” has anything to do with it, I have no idea).

B12 is found primarily in meat, eggs and dairy.

Also, it might me a good idea to do some research regarding what exactly B12 does in your body AND, how (and how much) stress depletes your body of nutrients such as B12.

Plus, some have issues with how well they absorb vitamin B12. So for some, the answer is to take in high doses, in order to absorb “normal” amounts.

So, for me, XS isn’t an “energy drink” using the definitions of what others call “energy drinks”, and therefore why I think it is competitively priced–if you are comparing it to the proper competitor.

Why not compare it to a B12 shot? Those run $20 (for the equivalent amount of B12 of what’s in 3 cans of XS)plus your time and effort to go to the doctor and drop your pants (or hike up your skirt).
Bridgett Says:
February 15th, 2008 at 12:55 am
#59 Eric (AEM)

It’s one each of the 10 flavors, plus one each of the caf-free versions of Cran-Grape and Tropical.

(so everything but the caf-free Rootbeer)

They are coming out with a new flavor in the spring.

And I guess the idea with the mixed pack, as they add new flavors, is to load it up with the best-selling 12.

I think the purpose of the mixed pack it to be able to introduce someone (have them buy a mixed case) to all the flavors and then they can pick their favorite 3, 4, 5, 6, etc. And then order single-flavored 12-packs of their favorites.

‘Cause what’s been happening is that people have only tried two or maybe three flavors (’cause that’s all they sampled from their IBO) and so that’s all they’ve been ordering.
Bridgett Says:
February 15th, 2008 at 1:15 am
#36 &#52 Eric(AEM)

Given the fact that in a couple of weeks, the way the catalogs are going to be done, I would not be surprised if non-retailable items (like the diapers) go bye-bye. They may not disappear right away, but I think they will just slooowly fade away (or be offered–positioned–soley for die-hard IBOs)

The new “Health & Beauty” Choices will just feature Artistry & Nutrilite (with Trim and XS and the health tech stuff like eSpring and iCook).

All other “core” lines, all “options”, and all “Store for More” stuff (except items that will become immediately extinct) will be in the “Home & More” Catalog.

All veeery interesting and very exciting.
Tex Says:
February 15th, 2008 at 1:24 am
john #53,

You are making the mistake of equating the minimum amount of a substance to prevent disease and the optimum amount to enhance a benefit, in the case of B12 to increase energy level. By the way, XS Energy is an energy drink.

G #58,

Get a clue (see #57).

Eric #59,

I doubt it.

DLS #60,

I agree.
bob Says:
February 15th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
no spin, just the facts. go to orrinwoodward.blogharbor.com

the truth shall set you free!!!!!!!

Good bless
john Says:
February 15th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
Bridgett #68,
The link is:

www.mayoclinic.com/health/vitaminB12/NS_patient-vitaminb12

You are correct that Vitamin B-12 is water soluable. This means that just about any amount over the USRDA of 100% is just wasted and passed through the system. My point is that 4900% may be some sort of “bragging point” but the truth is that 4800% of that is wasted and passed through the system. However, read the article & you will see that the body has the ability to store enough B-12 for several years.
My point about a low calorie diet is just to show that even people who are on diets almost assuredly get more than enough B-12. Dairy products have great amounts as well as meats.
Will you acknowledge that you read the link & will you acknowledge that as a water soluable vitamin, about 4,800% of what you consume from an XS is wasted? I do appreciate the debate & wish you and all others the best.

Tex #72 - Yes, XS is an energy drink. It is the same basic energy drink as most all the others on the market. Except that is priced high, you can’t just pick it up at the store, you have to wait for it to be shipped,and there are so many middle men getting a piece of the high price you pay. And yes, this is easily documented too.
G Says:
February 15th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
So -

You allude you’re having challenges yourself at this point - is it safe to assume YOU are in full compliance with 100% of “the gawdalmighty” rules? If so, we’ll have to discount your disclaimer in #57, huh?

If not, you must be suggesting any PERCEIVED breach of same entitles perceiving party to act out however they choose?

Heck, if we combined that attitude with the ability to write & modify “the rules of angagement” however, whenever I chose - I could never be in the “wrong”, eh?

Of course, we’d then come off looking like N end of southbound horse in that process … oh, wait a minute - they do!

And, at the end of the day - nothing changes in the one area you seem to be concerned with.
Eric (AEM) Says:
February 15th, 2008 at 8:54 pm
Josh,
3.4 percent of Quixtar sales are retail sales (for what year and how much that number changes year to year I’m not sure). That is a well known number by now. Take away self reported retail volume and it’s less than 3.4%.
Marnie Says:
February 15th, 2008 at 9:22 pm
Hey Amway, check out Orrin’s blog (orrinwoodward.blogharbor.com)–apparently he doesn’t have to be quiet anymore. He has posted all the dirty details–in my opinion, he was WAY, WAY too kind to you.

So how long before you slap him with another lawsuit? Unless you already filed one today. (I would not be surprised.) Let’s see, where will you file this one? Grand Rapids is out; your money’s no good here anymore. Texas? They don’t much care for you there either. Nevada, again? And what would be the justification, since you have to sue Orrin personally.

I especially love the info about the LOS becoming your property in 2004. Does that mean I get to keep everyone I sponsored before that?

Your tactics have made too clear that your business is a sewer. If it were decent, there would be no need for gag orders and desperate measures to keep “IBOs” enslaved.
Marnie Says:
February 15th, 2008 at 9:23 pm
Oh by the way, we know about your computer geeks working hard to make sure Google searches of Team people return Quixtar and Amway. Using your own bad name to bring down your enemies–now that is special.
Tex Says:
February 15th, 2008 at 10:10 pm
JimZ #61,

You are probably right, there aren’t any. However, even more sigificant to me is the fact these “Diamonds” make FAR more money on tools, fall back below the Diamond level, yet maintain a lifestyle far beyond the average Diamond income. THAT is the bigger lie.

Chuck #62,

I like your last disclosure. It is similar to the numbers Quixtar puts out for average income and makes the other disclosure unnecessary. Plus, the others are harder to measure, as you don’t know if the IBO is applying the system or just receiving the materials and/or attending the meetings.

Ex-IBO #63,

Just GO, TEAM!

Josh #65,

Great.

G #66,

Your post was very general and you didn’t reference which post you were referring to, but I think you meant to say Rich’s 1983 talk predated all the other events. This is true. Rich was also quoted later in the 80’s when questioned about the tool scam, as saying something to the effect of “We did what we did”, which is corporate talk for doing NOTHING. Rich is no angel in the tool scam, and neither are the current corporate “leaders”. However, the evidence building daily on the internet and other avenues will eventually bring honesty and transparency to the tool scam. Keep up the pressure.

Bridgett #67,

I googled Mayo and B12 and found a study which indicates what he said is true. However, there is a huge difference between lack of a nutrient causing disease and increasing energy levels.
Eric (AEM) Says:
February 15th, 2008 at 10:29 pm
Josh
“. . .don’t post false facts”.

What false facts did I post in #52?

Tex,
My apologee’s for the way I phrased that question, I wasn’t trying to make a point. I’ve always been told to make it to pins higher than silver you need to be plugged into a system. I was wondering if anybody made it without plugging into a system.
Also, I’m happy to say we finally agree, there needs to be more transparacy with tool money and how it is used.
ajgannon Says:
February 17th, 2008 at 10:54 pm
Who the heck is Nitro?

Josh,

Good comments.
Tex Says:
February 18th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
bob #72,

Now that Orrin isn’t with Quixtar, have him post how much tool profit he makes from the various parts of the tool system, as well as those at the other levels. Tell him not to lie, we already have a good idea of the total from the legal documents online.

Let’s see how truthful Orrin wants to be.

john #73,

You didn’t respond to #71. Try again.
Tex Says:
February 18th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
G #74,

Yes, I’m in full compliance.

But the discussion was about Orrin and Co. breaking rules for a half dozen years, over and over again, then wanting to get out of the 6 month waiting period at the end.

Eric #75,

The 3.4% includes self reported.
Tex Says:
February 18th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
Marnie #76,

The only dirty details on his blog are the details of where Orrin made most of his money, the TEAM tool scam.

They don’t need another lawsuit, they have arbitration, remember? But another 45 day extension seems in order. In fact, I think he should wait 6 months AFTER he apologizes openly for the mess he’s caused. Even Orrin admitted he “miscalculated” when he tried to blackmail Quixtar with the lawsuit. If Quixtar wanted to use a lawsuit, they could do it anywhere there is a competent judge.

Quixtar has ALL of your LOS, even the parts prior to 2004. There’s a valid reason for it, assuming you want to be an IBO.

Your tactics have made too clear that your mind is a sewer. If it were decent, there would be no need for “illegal pyramid” lawsuits and desperate measures to keep Orrin’s ego satisfied.
Tex Says:
February 18th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
Marnie #77,

We don’t need Quixtar’s help to link Orrin’s name to A/Q, they have done a great job of that all by themselves. Just GO, TEAM.

Eric #79,

I have advocated tool profit transparency for over 3 years. That we “finally agree” is a result of YOU changing YOUR mind. Just want to be clear on that.

ajgannon #80,

Google “Amway” and “Nitro”.
freedom Says:
February 19th, 2008 at 1:34 am
I just saw “team”, so this might not pertain, but I was out on Orrin’s blog and found out Mona Vie is the “big news” everyone was waiting for. Then I went to monavie.com, the 2nd tab over and “distributor resources” and found this:

When I look at the “average” people are making it broke down like this:
36% - $78 a year
41% - $1,066 a year
13% - $4,350 a year
6% - $9,415 a year
2% - $18,804 a year
1% - $29,303 a year
That’s 99% of all IBO’s.

Am I missing something? Is this the “great” thing Orrin has for everyone?

So Orrin says we should leave Quixtar because it’s too expensive and 6-months later we find out what we are going to be telling people is, “Keep buying at Wal Mart, but on top of that spend about $180 a month on a juice you drink 2oz twice a day and another $50 - $100 on CD/book/meetings.”

How many people did we just alienate?
Josh Says:
February 19th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
Eric AEM #79,

My comment was primarily based on your original comment. Using your opinions and experience as “facts” are not facts.

Using corporate averages are also not facts, they are averages. Now I will agree that 3.4% is not a great average, but my personal average is much higher than that. Perhaps, in my opinion (again not a fact), my experience may be a thing to come for Quixtar/Amway. Where half my personal volume comes from retail customers, paying retail prices (with a few exceptions..parents etc.).

Now let’s just ponder for a second, a person like me doing 50% customer volume(oh and BTW my personal volume is 500-700 points avg). Now, I have new couples and people getting started, they typically will buy their own stuff first (adding to my overall volume). Trying the products, liking or disliking products, getting over their fear of selling products, and actually selling products..this all takes time. It did for me. So that being said, depending on the number of IBOs in my group that are at varying levels of selling to customers I can see where, again IMO (not fact), the average number would make sense. (Total IBO volume to Total customer volume)

The overall volume running through my business is predominantly IBO personal volume, even though personally I do 50% customer volume. And lo, what happens when those IBOs achieve a decent level of personal customer volume (say 30% or more)? They have new IBOs they are helping to overcome the same steps and insecurities they had when they got started.

So you see, using corporate averages is not a fact based on proper evidence. Now if you were to take a random segment of Quixtar IBOs, active and have been in business for, say 2 years (or whatever number), then asked each independently what is your personal ratio of self use to customer use, you would be much closer to real “facts”. Instead of just repeating what other critics spout at any given time to fill their agendas.

I hope that is clear and comes across as me trying to explain to you what I meant. It is not meant to be mean, but hopefully will make you think a bit harder and further than just rattling off some random number said by critics.
nonprofit Says:
February 19th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
I’d like someone to answer the question queeried awhile back. Or better yet let me rephrase it. What is the highest level achieved in North America of an IBO not on a system, or tool scam as you put it? I personally would like to see those success stories. I don’t really care about who harmed who, or who made what on who. Show me examples of who’s succeeding now without a tool scam. Are there any? Are any of you purist bloggers successful in this endeavor minus the tools? Let’s address this issue at the core. Can this business work without the motivational tools and who has done it? Perhaps they are dependent upon each other? I’d like some FACTUAL success examples. Not tales of failures.
I’ve also noticed this blog is inhabited by the same few people complaining about the same thing. Apparently blogging about it accomplishes nothing.
I also noticed peeking on the other side of the fence that Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady asked that the tool income be made transparent. Going as far as including it in their book but removing it upon Quixtar’s threats. Those are the claims they make.
Foley,Brit,Woodward,Brady,and Marks have all defected to Mona Vie, could this be a trend? IBO’s being drawn to better managment and profit?
Mind you no business will work at all without effort. They don’t make shortcuts to success. Only opportunity is offered in any business the rest falls on the individual. So any bloggers complaining this business didn’t work (tool scam or not) didn’t take advantage of the opportunity offered. Opportunity+Effort=Income-That formula never changes. Shame on you quitters who lay blame either on the tool scam or Quixtar. The fault lies within!
ss3251 Says:
February 19th, 2008 at 8:41 pm
Any comments on Fred Harteis’ leaving for TEAM?
We said it was coming, but you were pretty strong in denying it.
Bridgett Says:
February 21st, 2008 at 3:18 am
#73 john,

Thanks for the link. The article is not from the Mayo Clinic. It’s from a third-party, Natural Standard (look at the very top of every article on the Health Tools. It will tell you the source of the “article”).

And Natural Standard is a database. And since you have to pay a membership fee to search their database (which I am not willing to do) I do not know who exactly wrote this piece.

What I do know is that this contradicts every single publication I’ve read regarding water-soluble and fat-soluble vitamins.

If I’m moved, I’ll contact the Mayo Clinic and inquire about their decision “print” stuff from Natural Standard.

Dubious.

Thanks for the link, though. Just goes to show ya…don’t believe everything you read.
Josh Says:
February 21st, 2008 at 12:49 pm
Nonprofit,

I personally have never heard of anyone becoming “successful” on their own. However, understand that the “tools” originally came from people that did succeed on their own. So it can be done.

DeVos said it years ago. Anyone can get started and build this business from the ground up. It is possible and I am sure some folks are attempting it. Tex is one of those people I believe who is trying it, although still using “tools” in varying degrees.

As you so eloquently put it, in either case the blame and responsibility always falls on the individual IBO.
Chuck Says:
February 21st, 2008 at 1:57 pm
#87 - Nonprofit:

The challenge with your request for information on success outside the system is that for as long as I have some knowledge of the business (which goes back to 1972, and the systems came several years after that) anyone who wanted to build the business outside the system was persona non grata in practice (regardless of the company’s or the systems’ claims to the contrary). Non-system IBOs would be quickly ostracized as non-loyal IBOs. I have personally had Diamonds say to me they would not work with anyone not on the system, despite the fact that the Rules of Conduct require them train their personally sponsored IBOs. So the opportunity to build the business outside a system has been very limited in practice.

Here’s what we can determine though: The kind of successful track record that has been achieved within the so-called proven systems. Have the systems disclose: What percentage of IBOs on the “proven” systems (using CEP, attending functions, etc.) reach Platinum in 12 months, 18 months, and 24 months? What percentage of IBOs on their system earn more than $1,500/mth? What percentage of Platinums on the proven system requalify as Platinums and also sponsor a fully qualified Platinum the next year? Which Diamonds currently speaking at functions on how to build the business sponsored a new frontline Platinum in the past year, or two years, or three years?

While there has not been an atmosphere in the business open to being NOT part of the proven systems, there has been a strong atmosphere in the business to make sure everyone is ON the system. So it seems to me those making, or even supporting, the claim that the systems are “proven” should be the first in line to validate their claim by PROVING it — or quit calling their systems “proven.”

Validating those claims should result in percentages that seem reasonable for the profit and success earned in relation to the expenses of earning same. But if those percentages show that 1 in 200 or .5% of IBOs on the system reach Platinum you are going to have a hard time convincing me that IBOs couldn’t do as well with far less financial expense without a system. Thankfully, I think we’re moving closer to a time in the business when we both might just get a solid answer to our queries.

To say that no one has built the business without a system is a non sequitor. No one has been encouraged to try. They’ve only been told that no one has built the business without being on the system, which pretty much keeps most new IBOs from considering the option of building without the system or in any other way — as they are placing their trust in the guidance of their sponsor(s).

It seems many people have forgotten the business was built for years without systems, grew far more rapidly, and had far less negative press than it does today with the systems. Don’t misunderstand me here. I do think there is a worthwhile role for systems. But that role should include full disclosure of tool profits and appropriate costs for tools that are commensurate with the potential early income possibilities of new IBOs.

Bottom line, if they want to say their systems are proven, it’s time to define what they mean by “proven” and the relative cost of that system so that new and old IBOs alike can honestly determine if investing in their LOS’s system is in their best interests.
Tex Says:
February 21st, 2008 at 11:33 pm
freedom #85,

Most of them, probably. I was alienated by Orrin and the rest of the lying cowardly “kingpins” long ago.

Josh #86,

The 3.4% number came from former IBOAI Board members, and they have been sued by the current IBOAI for disclosing confidential information. Averages are facts, and they have limitations. You make a good point it normally takes time to get comfortable and confident with the selling of products, and I have advocated an initial time period (3 months to a year) where IBO’s don’t have to meet the retail requirements (and/or have an increasing sliding scale) and still earn downline volume bonuses.
Tex Says:
February 21st, 2008 at 11:46 pm
nonprofit #87,

There were plenty of Amway distributors who made levels at and above Diamond in the ’60’s.

For as tired you are of hearing about the tool scam, you are showing you don’t understand the point. The tool scam isn’t created by the tools or their content, it is created by the prices and resulting profit the tools produce.

I have the first edition of Orrin’s book, and it does not mention the LEVEL of tool profit, only that profits are made, which doesn’t add anything that isn’t already disclosed in the rules. Have you seen the TEAM contract that requires those who profited from tools to keep the level of profit a secret?

I can assure you I do a lot more than complain on blogs, and some of the reasons for Orrin being terminated were exactly issues I pointed out to Quixtar months prior to him being terminated. If you think that is accomplishing nothing, so be it.

I wasn’t aware Foley was with MV. Do you have a source for that information? The others were terminated (or resigned prior to be terminated to try to save face). I don’t think this counts as being “drawn” to other opportunities.

There are plenty of bloggers who claim to have done the work and didn’t succeed. I don’t define succeeding as “going Diamond”, merely turning a net profit.

Why is it so wrong to place blame on a scam?
Tex Says:
February 21st, 2008 at 11:48 pm
ss3251 #88,

Where there’s smoke (the original lawsuit included his name), there’s often fire (The IBS tool scam being shut down and his brother quitting A/Q also contributed to his quitting). I guess Fred is just another loser, right?
Eric (AEM) Says:
February 22nd, 2008 at 2:36 am
Tex,
I never changed my mind about transparacy about tool income. Us agreeing is not a result of me changing my mind, or you changing your mind. And I know 3.4 % includes self reported.

Josh,
It doesn’t come off as mean. Still waiting for you to point out the things I claimed were facts from my first post. And when it comes to deciding if something is a product pyramid or not you don’t look at the person who retails the most. You look at the percentage the distributors sell to those not in the network, and the intent behind distributors purchases. And when it comes to Quixtar 96.7% of sales are made to the network. Many many IBO’s have sent in affidavits saying they have bought items to hit percentage brackets. And yes that 3.4% does include all IBO’s, those who are comfortable selling and those that are not. You’re right, I’m sure if you only looked at those IBO’s who are comfortable selling and have been given proper product education the percent they sell to people outside the network would be much higher than 3.4%. The only fact I’ll try to claim here is that if Quixtar/Amway dropped their prices so they were more in line with market prices (the market for similar quality products) that 3.4 percent number would change. If, as a IBO, you could get XS at $1 a can and sell it for $2 a can, not only would you use a lot of it, you’d sell a lot of it to. Most of the products have a wholesale that is higher than market retail. Your experience is the exception, and that 3.4% proves it.
G Says:
February 22nd, 2008 at 3:03 pm
Freedom #85 -

Did you compare that breakout with %’s of our host’s income opportunity?

I believe you’ll find $$$ to be better across the street by a significant factor … if memory serves, Platinum alone is much less than 1% of the IBOs … correct?

Either opportunity is gonna take some work to be at the top of the heap - only our friends at the Lottery will promise something for nothing.
Former IBO Says:
February 25th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
What can you tell us about the resignation of Fred Harteis?
Tex Says:
February 25th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
ss3251 #89,

Are you saying the Blog Admin should be predicting the future? I would find this totally inappropriate.

Bridgett #90,

Beyond what you found, there is a HUGE difference in the amount of B12 it takes to prevent disease and the amount of B12 that will raise your energy level.

I again googled “Mayo Clinic B12″ and got this on the top spot, which apparently IS from the Mayo Clinic: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vitamin-B12/NS_patient-vitaminb12

Josh #91,

I find it very difficult to put total blame on the IBO’s, for these reasons:

1. Many IBO’s have a pre-exising relationship with their sponsor (relative, friend, co-worker, etc.), and the upline commonly refers to their group as “business partners” and “teammates”, and encourages their downline to do the same with new prospects, so there is a built in level of trust,

2. Many IBO’s are systematically lied to regarding the level of overhead, the selling requirements, the MA$$IVE amount of profit being made on the tools, etc.

So if you want to put all the blame on those getting scammed, you are on opposite sides with the law in this regard.

Chuck #92,

Chuck for President! I have PERSONALLY experienced what happens when you go off the tool system. You are “best buddies” one day, and completely ignored the next. And if you think the corp. is going to help you, think again. I’ve tried, and I haven’t even known who my upline Platinum is since last Augest, over 6 months ago, let alone been able to find a tool system to (partially) plug into.
Tex Says:
February 25th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
Eric #96

Then why did you say this in #80, “Also, I’m happy to say we finally agree, there needs to be more transparacy with tool money and how it is used.”?

G#97,

What do you think the percentage should be for Platinums? Be careful how you answer, you may be exposing your knowledge/lack thereof with your answer.
Tex Says:
February 25th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Former IBO #98,

He quit. It’s Fred’s (former) business, ask him. Or, ask the IBOAI on their blog. I would, but I’ve been “banned” from there for asking about the tool scam. Just don’t expect an answer from them either, they will use the answer above.

I personally think it had to do with the tool scam, and not wanting to take a smaller “cut”. I expect to see either a lot more of our “heros” quit for the same reason before this is all over. Good riddance.
YankeeIBO Says:
February 25th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
nonprofit-#88,
Tim Foley has NOT gone over to MV! The man is a Founders Crown Ambassador

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February 8th, 2008 @ 11:24 pm ET…

Nitro: Case dismissed

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