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Alticor Media Blog is the official news weblog from the Alticor family of companies.
October 24th, 2007 @ 8:45 pm ET…
Why we fight, part 1
You can post a comment or trackback from your own site.
After being on the defensive for 20 straight legal attacks, we filed suit yesterday against the corporation that owns TEAM.
We filed suit because the single legal case we brought (and won) in this matter listed Orrin Woodward as a defendant—but Woodward then claimed to have magically disappeared as the manager of TEAM before the case was heard. (A legal trick like that is like pretending Rich and Jay have nothing to do with our company—but never mind. We’ll straighten it out.)
We filed suit because TEAM has had multiple chances to play by the rules in this dispute, but have gambled that they do not have to play by them. They have interfered with non-compete agreements. They have interfered with non-solicitation agreements. They refuse to arbitrate.
But most of all, we are filing suit because TEAM has taken proprietary business information from Quixtar that IBOs could be using right now to build Quixtar businesses.
If you leave your place of work today, you would leave behind your tools and information so that those who remain can carry on the business. You can’t help yourself to your computer, the stapler, the coffeemaker—or the company’s customer list.
That is ethically and morally wrong. It is also legally wrong. And that’s why we filed suit.
Filed by: Corporate Communications
Posted in: Alticor, Amway, Quixtar, Transformation
November 2nd, 2007 at 3:46 pm
Jerad #594,
If that is the only difference then everybody but you understands that the two plans are very very similar. —- That isn’t the only difference, but it is a major one.
Understand that Q is responsible for the hiding of tool profit. Suddenly the blame for the only difference between the two compensation plans rests on Q. —- Actually, Quixtar’s position is the upline can hide tool profits if they want to, but they also have to ensure the income/lifestyle those tools create cannot be revealed, either. I don’t agree with this position, but Orrin’s wanting to reveal tool profits has not made the “laundry list” of charges against him that caused his termination.
Remember, we want to make TEAM profits part of our plan and part of our overnight materials. This is one of the “anticipatory infractions” that TEAM was terminated for. Even tho’ we rewrote our book [i]Leading the Consumer Rebellion[/i] and adjusted out plan to meet Q’s goal of hiding tool profits. —- I haven’t seen the term “anticipatory infractions” in any Orrin related documents. Sounds like an excuse to me. I also have a copy of the “Leading the Consumer Rebellion”, First Edition 2004, and while it mentions profit sharing, secondary businesses, etc., it does NOT state the tool scam profits dwarf the Quixtar profit. Therefore, Orrin is (was) STILL a lying cowardly “kingpin”.
But rest assured, the two compasation plans are so simular that you can’t say that one is moral and one isn’t. —- I can, and they are.
Not if you are honest. —- Because I am honest, while you are lying between your teeth.
November 2nd, 2007 at 3:49 pm
john #596/7,
I agree with you that most lose money, but the reason is because of the tool scam, not Quixtar.
Quixtar doesn’t have to open the books, Doug DeVos stated about a year ago the growth has been flat for the past decade.
November 2nd, 2007 at 4:08 pm
boo!
November 2nd, 2007 at 4:08 pm
fuddman #600,
The system isn’t promoted as a way to improve yourself, but to enable you to make your business more profitable. The personal improvements are supposed to be a side dish, not the main entree. Especially from a profit perspective.
How many more people could have improved themselves from using the system if it didn’t cost so much?
Good luck promoting your “leadership” system without the cover Quixtar provided, you’ll need lots of it.
November 2nd, 2007 at 4:36 pm
tax #599
Bingo. I was also ignored by the upline after going off standing order tools.
I think there may be a couple of other reasons why they ignored you…
November 2nd, 2007 at 4:44 pm
who cares about what happened between 1976 and 2003 the truth of the matter is in 1999 quixtar came into play numbers are not the same what matters is what is happening between Aug. 9th and Now…lets see Thousands of IBO’s have left, many more will leave, I would imagine there are a lot of IBO’s out there that chose not to “stir the pot” so they will just leave quietly on Jan. 1 when they have not renewed their IBOship. Lets compare BV in July and BV in Oct.
November 2nd, 2007 at 5:10 pm
Tex (602),
If Doug Devos knew that growth has been flat for a decade, why did he “knowingly” allow the kingpins to continue to mislead hundreds of thousands of downline to believe this has been the best and fastest growing company in the world? If it has been flat for a decade, why did he allow the kingpins to continutally say things like you can “expect” $57,000 in your first year? And yes the WWDB private franchising review that is presented to potential IBOs makes that declaration. If Devos knew the thousands were being deceived and mislead, why did’nt he put a stop to it?
November 2nd, 2007 at 5:15 pm
fuddman 600.
I want to thank you for helping make my point. Your response is typical of what happens when one criticizes the system. The person leveling the criticism is instantly attacked, and accused of not being open to the learning that the system provides.
Since you want to talk about success let’s do that. I was counseled by my upline diamond not to take any promotions or changes in my job - - now doesn’t that go against all you TEAM folks claiming that the system is meant for growth in all aspects of life? Anyway, back to my point. I was being told that I was spending too much time working on a vehicle that could achieve the level of financal freedom I wanted, so i should focus on my business. You know what I did that for a bout year. I passed up a couple of great promotions, I left the corporation i was working for and took a job with less responsiblity so I could focus on my buisness and went all out. For a year I dedicated my life to the system and to the business. You know what happend in that year??? My business actually shrank in volume and IBO’s. I’m gald you posted fuddman because now I know it wasn’t the systems fault… I was just too stupid to make it happen.
Then a miracle happend, I got off the system, re-engaged in my career, and I got a new job, one that paid almost double what my old one did. I achived a high level of success with out the use of system…. I know that’s impossible right??? I mean who ever thought of succeeding on one’s own merits….
November 2nd, 2007 at 5:48 pm
#606 Chris:
Let’s keep things in perspective.
Of course BV is down. But also understand that team was only a small fraction of Q’s business. Don’t forget, there are plenty of groups/IBOs who have never even hard of team. You’re not as significant as you think you are.
November 2nd, 2007 at 5:49 pm
That lost post should have said “heard of team” instead of hard of team.
Darn typos.
November 2nd, 2007 at 6:10 pm
I think we should let this blog go up to 666 posts and then stop. I think that would be the appropriate number for this subject.
November 2nd, 2007 at 6:33 pm
Jerry Harteis resigned yesterday.
Read the letter at www.amquix.info
under new pages
November 2nd, 2007 at 6:34 pm
jthompson #603,
You’re two days late.
benjamin #605,
There are two reasons they ignored me, they are liars and cowards.
chris #606,
I agree with you when it comes to the business growth (or lack thereof), what is important is just the last few years, and the future.
November 2nd, 2007 at 6:41 pm
#599 Tex
The numbers of IBOs will increase, but not right away, b/c of what I said in my earlier comment. To elaborate,
First we have to weed out current IBOs. Weed out for various reasons like 1) not really on board and never have been with the *QUIXTAR* Comp Plan; and 2) those IBOs who are solely consumers of the products with no intention of ever selling a product or sponsoring people.
Those that are weeded out will be replaced by “true” IBOs. So the net effect for awhile will be a negative (-), then will even out, and then will be a positive (+).
We have to go two steps back to go three steps forward.
I think the First Circle is addressing the tool issue, because LOAs need to transform as well. If an LOA doesn’t support the philosophy of the First Circle, then their true motives will be exposed. Those who don’t transform will either be kicked out, will fall apart, or go away. I think they go hand-in-hand.
November 2nd, 2007 at 6:50 pm
Tex#601,
“That isn’t the only difference, but it is a major one.”
Yes sir, I believe that it is the only major difference. If there are others please tell me what they are.
“Actually, Quixtar’s position is the upline can hide tool profits if they want to, but they also have to ensure the income/lifestyle those tools create cannot be revealed, either. I don’t agree with this position, but Orrin’s wanting to reveal tool profits has not made the “laundry list” of charges against him that caused his termination.”
So you are saying that Q doesn’t want us to hide the tool profits, just the cool stuff we buy with it? Please explain.
“I haven’t seen the term “anticipatory infractions” in any Orrin related documents.”
Look harder.
“Sounds like an excuse to me. I also have a copy of the “Leading the Consumer Rebellion”, First Edition 2004, and while it mentions profit sharing, secondary businesses, etc., it does NOT state the tool scam profits dwarf the Quixtar profit. Therefore, Orrin is (was) STILL a lying cowardly “kingpin”.”
Wrong again. The fact remains that we has info in the book about tool profits. We were forced to remove said info.
“Because I am honest, while you are lying between your teeth.”
So you believe that I don’t have an honest dissagreement with you? Do you think that anybody who disagees with you is a liar? I ask because I can see nothing in any of my posts that would make me seem like a liar.
November 2nd, 2007 at 7:26 pm
To all TEAM members and non-TEAM members that have decided to leave or to not renew:
I do not use the word “problem” because it denotes something that is there to stop you, however, I will use it in this post as it is appropriate for the meaning.
It is totally useless to argue with with a number of the people on here such as Tex, jthompson and several others that y’all are well aware of. It does not matter what you say or even if you showed them irrefutable proof that what you say is true, then they will still deny and argue against it. These people are one of two types of people. They are either Quixtar employees or bigwigs that if they are successful will get BIG raises or bonuses or they are IBO’s that because of their participation in defence of the indefensible stance that Alticor/Quixtar has taken, it is probably a sure bet that if they are not already, they will be some of the new Diamond/Ambassadors “success” stories in their revamp of the Quixtar business. If you try to sway them or pull them away from their (possibly) “promised” gains then they will turn on you like a mother bear will defend their cubs.
November 2nd, 2007 at 8:18 pm
sad and confused #578
I am sorry that no one in your upline taught you how to use your tools.
I was on system for more than a year before I figured out how to leverage the system. It wasn’t until I heard an old brady tape where he talked about and gave a list of how to use the cds an which ones fit particular situations. I thought I was just supposed to listen and read the info for myself and my own personal growth and posture. What I realized was that the system wasn’t made to keep people in, rather to get people in. I found that once I made a friend and found a need, which is the first thing to do because people dont join your business they join YOU, I was able review cds or books that I knew they would relate to. then I would pick out a few and give them the info they needed to make a decision. It wasn’t until then that I started to sponsor people. You can’t just browbeat someone into your business and just expect the system to hold them in. I had to build relationships with people based on friendship and leveraging the system. As soon as I learned how to leverage the system Everything became a breeze.
I wish I would have figured it out sooner though…
November 2nd, 2007 at 8:19 pm
#566 AEM
I scanned over the thread you referred to. I didn’t see questions from you. Just thinly veiled insults mentioning my daddy.
Were you asking if I’m a Diamond Kid? I’m not. My parents have never built the Amway or Quixtar business.
I’m not here to engage you AEM. See my comment #173 from this thread.
November 2nd, 2007 at 9:15 pm
I know people who have been ignored by their upline for getting off system as well and I must say that while i dont agree with that kind of treatment of people I do understand that usually but not always, If someone drops off system it usually means that they have stopped focusing on their business for one reason or another and said upline is going to start focusing on the ppl who are. There are alot of ppl who an upline needs to focus on and help out. Too many sometimes and there are only so many hours in a day, so if someone decides the dont want to invest in the training system to learn for themselves then why spend all of your time trying to do it for them. Now I know that this isnt always the case and some ppls upline just figure why waste my time. I dont agree with them, I would call that a character flaw, a very big one indeed!
sometimes new ppl just cant afford it for one reason or another, but you should never stop communicating with the friends that you have made no matter what they are going through or what choices they make in life. I have plenty of friends who didn’t join or joined and then quit who are still dear friends of mine and always will be. I have given them books and cd that have enriched their lives and they encourage me in my business, and I do them in what ever it is they do. Fortunately insincerity always shows through in the end.
November 2nd, 2007 at 11:11 pm
Jerad #544, Vince #548
I agree that at a certain level it serves no purpose to treat people as less than adults on this blog, and probably no one has been perfect, in the heat of the moment. Passion is fine, wit is also fine, if one is up to it.
I’m very happy with prior management (Jim Payne) and new management (Steve L) at Quixtar, not to mention Doug DV and Steve VanA. You definitely wouldn’t want me in management at Q, or perhaps from a Team perspective you would (LOL!!!). There is never a better time to be a part of a company than when it’s in turn-around and renewal mode — I’ve been with several in that situation and the potential is always immense and exciting, and the rewards unbelievable!!! That’s where Quixtar is right now!!!
I’m sure you know that the PR dept at Alticor is a completely different and separate dept. from the Quixtar PR dept, even in different buildings. Quixtar PR shows its face over at the Opportunity Zone and that’s what you have to judge when you say ‘Quixtar PR.’ You have to admit, they are pretty decent over there.
I think I do understand where Team is coming from and I would respectfully say that it is an inconsistent position, all evidence — yours and Alticor’s — thoughtfully considered. As the saying goes, you don’t get both sweet and bitter water from the same spring.
In the end, I’m looking forward to all the changes at Quixtar that you and your colleagues say you can’t abide. I wasn’t thrilled with the name issue, but I can deal with it. I’m affiliated with INA, using the Team building approach (with modifications) and it IS possible to create a retail customer base, and it’s getting easier to do so with the new products. One can still drive as much depth as they want, but in a balanced way. And the 15-20 benchmark products (and more) are in the pipeline.
Am also enjoying reading Chris and Orrin’s leadership book again, both its strengths and weaknesses (it has both). In some ways they’ve made some great contributions to understanding this business, but they’ve made some irreversable mistakes too. I just think that in the heat of the moment, you guys have leaned your ladders against the wrong wall. We’ll see how it all turns out a few years hence.
November 3rd, 2007 at 12:23 am
Would you be a con if…
… you knew for years your team was peddling a pyramid scheme (Quixtar)
… and you continued to recruit in spite of this knowledge
… and your team even sued its sister organization for being illegal
… and yet you still continued to sell it as a legitimate business ?
Would any legitimate organization sell business
opportunities with a near 99 % failure rate ?
Would they expand to Third World Countries
to hurt the poorest and most naive among us ?
November 3rd, 2007 at 12:30 am
Consider… one MLM - one of the largest in the world - sends 84% of all commissions to the top 1% of its distributor chain. What chance would the newest recruits - at the bottom - have to earn a profit?
All claims, promises, and testimonials about these MLMs as “income opportunities” are false, misleading and harmful. People lose in these schemes because they were lured into a money trap, not because they “failed” or “quit.”Any scheme in which less than 1% make a net profit is not an “opportunity.” People are also hesitant to blow the whistle because often - by the time they realize it’s a scam - they realized that they too have duped their family and friends. Thus they awkwardly back out.
The massive loss rates in MLM would be the same even if every participant had the talents and ambitions of Donald Trump and Warren Buffet! The loss rates are pre-determined by the scheme’s design and operation. The recruiters at the top know all this even as they falsely hype the scheme as the “greatest opportunity in the world.”
MLM’s make promises - they do not deliver on them
Like Enron’s fraud, MLM’s business practices are not a matter of a corruption of an otherwise legitimate business. The fraud is inherent, pervasive and fundamental. Both Enron’s and MLM’s scams are based not saying who they really are - on a false identity, a bogus business model, and claims of uniqueness. Its chairman, Ken Lay who later was convicted of fraud but died before serving his sentence, served as the company’s prophet and evangelist. These priestly roles served the company well since Enron’s real product was faith, not energy. MLM’s business is selling false hope, not products. In the end, they are both confidence schemes.
November 3rd, 2007 at 1:13 am
Sad & Confused
Tex answered my question perfectly in 586. ”
Take the retail option away and what do you have left? —- TEAM and most of the other tool systems”.
You’re totally right, product pricing probably had nothing to with your upline not working with you after you dropped system. I do agree on that. Business is about making money, the focus goes where the money is. The money is not in product flow, it’s in system flow.
November 3rd, 2007 at 1:24 am
Tex #575
“Orrin and Co. have landed in arbitration and in court, and will be bled dry of money and probably have the normal 6 month/2 year time periods extended.”
In the end it really doesn’t matter. They have exposed AltiQuixWay’s pricing scam and they will still get to start their own business that’s better for everyone.
“The outside books are purchased for half the retail price or less, then marked up.”
Very profound. So is TEAM not allowed to make a profit at least to pay for costs? It is not free to run an organization that has the fastest growth in the industry.(which is why Orrin has been highly recognized by Quixtar). By the way, “fastest growth” means more IBO’s becoming financially free than other organizations. You gotta admit, there’s something to that. That means the TEAM system WORKS.
“The TEAM produced books are marked up even more, because they don’t have to pay the author, publisher, etc., it all goes to Orrin and Chris (except for the latest one going to charity, which is a PR stunt).”
Actually, TEAM produced books are usually CHEAPER than all the rest of the books for the very reason you mentioned that there are less middle men involved.
“How do the tools pay for themselves in the first month?”
I spend about $100 each month on tools and I get paid $100 per month just for having 15 people in my organization which I didn’t necessarily put in myself. It’s great! If you call that a scam then I don’t know what a scam is.
“I have been active on various blogs for over 2 years, reported the problems to the FTC and reported the TEAM rules violations at Opens and a Seminar to Quixtar, by telephone, e-mail, registered letters, and face to face discussions with Quixtar lawyers (the last one started after the lawsuits were started).”
I applaud your tenacity. But I can’t help but wonder if you spent as much energy on this “scam” stuff as you did on your Amway business, you would be successful enough that it wouldn’t matter to you or your organization what other people are doing. As long as people are still “independent” business owners, you will always have to deal with people starting what you call “tool scams” (although I don’t understand what your definition of “tool scam” is) so you will be spending most of your life fighting that then growing your business. Suit yourself.
November 3rd, 2007 at 1:33 am
Thanksgiving is just around the corner; what are you thankful for???
I am thankful for the gift of another wonderful year with my family!
I am thankful for the financial blessings I have received in spite of one source of income going away.
I am thankful for the fact that, someday, this mess will all be history, and people can stop badmouthing each other and passing off the blame for there failures and put their “money where their mouth is”.
Those sticking with Quixtar; you still have a six month head-start; let’s all get together in Disney after we all get beyond 1 Million lives that we bless.
As we each continue on our journey to success and wisdom; remember the saying, “The COWARDS never started. The WEAK died on the way. Only the STRONG survived.” Be STRONG! Focus on your life purpose and NEVER GIVE UP on it!
Unconditional Love is the only real answer to any question!
November 3rd, 2007 at 1:45 am
Jerad #544, Vince #548 and other ‘adults’
There is a compelling (from my point of view) post on IBOFightBack’s site tonight by ajgannon that does express the views of many of us who are happy to stay committed to our Quixtar-driven businesses. I know it’s not your point of view, and I don’t expect you’ll agree with all or much of it, but I’m pointing to it respectfully (as you have been with me) so you understand part of the non-Team perspective.
http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/component/option,com_fireboard/func,view/id,8603/catid,27/#8603
If you have something or are looking forward to something you believe is better, I wish you the best with it… within reason — I’ll be your competitor
I’m sure if we were to ever meet on the street we’d probably head to the nearest Starbuck’s and have a grand conversation. In any event, best wishes on a personal level.
November 3rd, 2007 at 2:55 am
Texdunce #571
End of year Quixtar bonuses probably twice what you make every year at your real job.
Your funny a nonachiever calling an achiever cowardly.
November 3rd, 2007 at 4:11 am
Tex,
You prove in 604 that you don’t know much about Team.
November 3rd, 2007 at 8:25 am
John #597, if you read the post and consider it “hypothetical” numbers then you’re either lying about reading it, or your comprehension isn’t the best. The numbers are factual and sourced and then have straightforward, non-hypothetical math applied. It’s only “hypothetical” if you consider 1+2=2 to by hypothetical.
November 3rd, 2007 at 12:35 pm
I check back from time to time to see if there are anymore spins posted by Quixtar. Over six hundred postings here. Someone has been busy. I don’t do more than skim a few of them.
Girl Power…Where do people get off calling people “Amish” and using it as put down? Is it necessary to make your point by disparaging those with a culture that is different than yours?
Tex — still calling people stupid and moron, and otherwise showing a lack of class. Still whining about the “tools scam” while asking others if they want cheese with their whine. Sometimes you make good points, but when you promulgate your cogitations with boorish ponderosities, you affectively obfuscate and convolute your postulations.
It’s funny to see people still trying to get 1-up Tex or convince him that he is wrong; meanwhile Tex still trying to convince “Orrinites” that they are wrong. There’s a quote that may be apropos -”Don’t try to teach a pig to sing; it irritates the pig and wastes your time.” Neither side will convince the other.
I’ll check back in a couple of weeks or so…Tex, please do me a favor and proof this for spelling and typos so you can let everyone know that you are smarter than the rest of us.
4 months to go and counting.
November 3rd, 2007 at 5:53 pm
You know Tex, you keep on and on about the “tool scam” and are blaming that for the loss of retail profit.
What you don’t seem to understand is: customers will not pay the Q* suggested retail price from an IBO when they can purchase comparable products at local stores for less money. So, we have to sell for less than Q* suggested retail price but not lower than IBO cost and HOPE that we end up with enough PV, and that we bracket the person below us, just to make a little bit of money. Even with selling at IBO cost, the prices are higher than what most people want to pay.
I stated in an earlier post, that at the open meetings, it was very clear (at least to us)that the money we would really make was from tools.
This is what we saw and why it was clear to us: Night Owl… one leg with 40 or 50 ON SYSTEM, second leg with 20 ON SYSTEM, 2K - 3K a month.
We definitly knew that having 60 or 70 different businesses in our downline, would not generate 2K-3K a month; not when most IBO’s barely do 50pv a month.
Not only that, but we are not that naive to think that there wasn’t money being made on the “system” that we were buying. We do know that we could purchase “blank” CD’s for about $0.25 each. It is the information on them that make them priceless.
Yes, we know that they all say about the same thing. So do Country Music CD’s… pick-up trucks, beer, women and dogs. Once you bought one, why buy any more? If you like country music, you do; if you don’t, you won’t.
College text books… you can pay thousands out for books and classes, in just one semester, with no guarantee that you are going to make any money from what you learned. No the college made a lot of money, the college book store made a ton on the books and the instructors are making money to teach you something that will hopefully help you make money. I don’t see a difference here, but that is my opinion, doesn’t make it right or wrong.
Q* isn’t doing what they are doing because of tools. Take a look at what lines they have accredited… all of the “old Amway family” people; MMP (MarkerMan himself, Jody Victor), eFinity (Bill Childers, Tim Foley), and ProSystem One (Giove Pici & Tom Armour…not sure who they are). I do know that MMP and eFinity are all “old Amway” people. Since the only way we are going to earn that pass-up money is for you or your platinum to be affiliated with one of them…
So Tex, where is the scam now?? To me, it appears as if Q*/A/A is making their own tool scam!
November 3rd, 2007 at 8:52 pm
Tex,
You appear to be confused…
The Team tool profit sharing program is the only fair plan. No one has a special deal, therefore all money is available to all Team members.
Alticor/Amway/Quixtar can not say that. Not all of the profit made by the company (outside of overhead) is available to the IBO. There are certain people who do have a special deal based on who they are.
You’ve said that you “stick to the facts” - those are the facts
November 3rd, 2007 at 11:12 pm
john #607,
If Doug Devos knew that growth has been flat for a decade, why did he “knowingly” allow the kingpins to continue to mislead hundreds of thousands of downline to believe this has been the best and fastest growing company in the world? —- Don’t you know the difference between reality and marketing?
If it has been flat for a decade, why did he allow the kingpins to continutally say things like you can “expect” $57,000 in your first year? And yes the WWDB private franchising review that is presented to potential IBOs makes that declaration. —- How do you know Doug knows this is said? Also, what is the context of this statement, that you do a certain amount of work, or it just comes automatically?
If Devos knew the thousands were being deceived and mislead, why did’nt he put a stop to it? —- His father and co-founder knew about the tool scam fact since the late 70’s, so he inherited a problem that goes back a lot further than just since Doug took over in the last few years. The corp’s position is it is okay to have a tool scam, as long as the lifestyle created is not on display. I disagree with this position, and now the UK DTI internet is making the facts known and forcing a change. You need to keep complaining about how things are, and also demand change.
November 3rd, 2007 at 11:17 pm
Sad & Confused #608,
Did the information you gained from the system contribute to the promotion opportunities and your subsequent better job? Then the problem may not be the INFORMATION the system provides, it is simply too expensive for many IBO’s to stay engaged in. This is the nature of the tool scam, the information is generally good, it is the expense (and resulting MA$$IVE profits for the “kingpins”) that is the problem. How much tool money did you make at Emerald?
November 3rd, 2007 at 11:23 pm
Jeffrey #611,
I think you should get a clue, this thread will blow right past your superstitious number.
Bridgett #614,
I think we are generally agreeing, we may have to go backwards a bit, then move back to the starting point, and eventually get beyond the current level. I am concerned about the “First Circle”, it seems to have been talked about for about 2 years and still hasn’t been launched. Also, if the tool scam isn’t fixed, the First Circle retail profits will simply go to upline (after all, the IBO’s can now more easily support the tool costs), and we will have accomplished very little.
November 3rd, 2007 at 11:31 pm
IBO Fightback (627),
You crack me up. Go back and read your post at (627). “You state it is only “hypothetical” if you consider 1+2=2 to be hypothetical.” Those are your words and yes I do believe that 1+1=2 would not only be hypothetical but 100% incorrect.
In your lengthy expose you try to refute the numbers that Quixtar gives. You make issue of “adjusted for inflation”. The problem with your whole scenario is that you don’t account for Amway/Quixtar price increases. Inflation over the years may average 2-3% per year. But A/Q prices increase well above 2-3% per year. Also, why should it take you so much research and so much expose to try to prove growth figures? Why doesn’t A/Q just tell us? Did you know that Doug Devos has publically admitted that growth has been flat for a decade?
By the way, I notice you trying to discredit a few of Scott Larsen’s postings. Why don’t you acknowledge the 100% provable and factual things he reports? (Like Founders Diamond David Shores having his house foreclosed on-with court document provided; Dean Kosage who still claims he retired at age 23 but just a few years ago his divorce papers show he basically didn’t have much at all).
Shall we go on: like the largest tax fraud case in Canadian history - against Amway! I do appreciate your site as it does have some good information and I do appreciate your spirited dialogue.
November 3rd, 2007 at 11:33 pm
“Ask not what your country can do for your country, but, ask what you can do for Quixtar.”
November 3rd, 2007 at 11:35 pm
Forget that last one…….. it’s like this’
“ASK NOT WHAT QUIXTAR CAN DO FOR YOU, BUT, ASK WHAT YOU CAN DO FOR QUIXTAR”…..
November 3rd, 2007 at 11:36 pm
Jerad #615,
Here’s the original issue: “How can it not make sense to you? The point is this: If you believe that TEAM’s tool bonus compensation plan is a scam then how can you participate in Q’s bonus plan? I ask this because they are very nearly the same compensation plan.” One of the major issues is one is hidden, the other is in the open. This is one major difference. Another one is there is very little retail (to non-IBO’s) available to the tool system. Another is only the high level IBO’s participate in in the tool scam profits, unlike the Quixtar plan, where the bonuses start at much lower levels. Also, you won’t be ignored if you happen to not order products, as you are if you stop using the tools.
As the most casual observer can see, there are numerous significant differences.
November 3rd, 2007 at 11:42 pm
Spartan’s!!………prepare for glory!
What are all of you “uneducated opinionators”
going to do when the big “Q” falls? You guys have all the answers……. what are you going to do? Hitch on to some MLM org. that specializes in “anti-aging” drinks that are derived by the rare “Shantoola” root which is found only in the deep swamps of Brazil?
November 3rd, 2007 at 11:54 pm
Jerad #615 (continued),
So you are saying that Q doesn’t want us to hide the tool profits, just the cool stuff we buy with it? Please explain. —- They said you can reveal the profits, but if you don’t, you can’t reveal the lifestyle (cool stuff) provided by the tool scam.
“I haven’t seen the term “anticipatory infractions” in any Orrin related documents.”
Look harder. —- No thanks, not worth my time.
“Sounds like an excuse to me. I also have a copy of the “Leading the Consumer Rebellion”, First Edition 2004, and while it mentions profit sharing, secondary businesses, etc., it does NOT state the tool scam profits dwarf the Quixtar profit. Therefore, Orrin is (was) STILL a lying cowardly “kingpin”.” Wrong again. The fact remains that we has info in the book about tool profits. We were forced to remove said info. —- Like what?
“Because I am honest, while you are lying between your teeth.” So you believe that I don’t have an honest dissagreement with you? Do you think that anybody who disagees with you is a liar? I ask because I can see nothing in any of my posts that would make me seem like a liar. —- It’s stupid posts like this that weaken your position: “Why do you keep suing us if you want us to leave? Look, if I got fired from my job I would most certainly take my tools that I bought and brought into work back home with me. Because I used them at work does not make them company property!” See my reply #102, which I believe you never responded to. That is one of many posts you throw out there, and when challenged, you simply ignore the reply. If you can’t maintain a conversation, and all you want to do is whine, why don’t you just hit the road?
November 4th, 2007 at 12:04 am
Rich #616,
The real reason you should give it up is because you are attempting to defend the lying cowardly “kingpins”, and the facts clearly show their days are numbered.
ben #617,
The tools are designed to get people in AND keep them in. You were promoting the tool scam and were not aware of it, just like the lying cowardly “kingpins” had planned.
November 4th, 2007 at 12:18 am
JaneDoe #629, et al
It’s clear that we are not working even in the same business category. Just set up a new Customer this afternoon, at full retail. He trained as a lawyer, didn’t like the courtroom and went into sales, is very successful. Has also run his own business although currently in a corporate position. Comes from a cultural background renown for financial accument, and is personally financially sharp. Loved the XS samples and added Simply Nutrilite to his order without a sample. Is paying full retail to “sample.” Thought the pricing was incredibly good.
Time will come when I’ll explore his interest in selling the products and building his own Quixtar business, and move him from Customer to IBO, when he’s ready. Will fill his Customer slot in my Personal Circle with many others.
I and thousands of others just like me are proving our point and perspective, not with blog talk but with our actions. We’ve got the heart “hunger” Chris and Orrin talked (past tense) about. That’s why we’ll win with retail as a big piece of our balanced approach to business, not with an unsustainable “tools” income approach.
November 4th, 2007 at 12:18 am
Question for Everyone,
Why would big diamonds like Brady, Woodward, Brig Hart, Bo short, Jerry Harties, etc. walk away from the “on going diamond income” income? Why would they risk losing that coveted “financial freedom for life” by not obeying Quixtars rules of conduct. I propose an answer, “Because they can make a ton more money off their downline by selling CDs, books, motivation rallies, more CDs and more books. Thier Quixtar income is totally worth giving up because it is merely a fraction of their tools income. Same is true for Mr. Puryear, Mr. Britt, Mr. Yeagar and Mr. Duncan. They make the vast majority of their income off their struggling downline through incessant motivational tape speak then they will ever make from A/Q. If they want to show otherwise, all they have to do is open their books. Not to mention that A/Q won’t mess with WWDB because WWDB diamonds own the distribution company for XS.
November 4th, 2007 at 12:19 am
ben #619,
Ignoring those who stop standing order is much more common than you imply. If you were really against it, you wouldn’t just shrug your shoulders, you would do something about it.
Fortunately insincerity always shows through in the end. —- Yes it does, see above.
AEM #621,
There is money in the product flow, just not nearly as much as in the tool scam.
November 4th, 2007 at 12:40 am
marc #622,
In the end it really does matter. They have further exposed all tool system pricing scams and they will still get to start their own business, but they will be so broke, disgraced, and virtually alone they will have to start all over. That’s better for everyone.
Very profound. So is TEAM not allowed to make a profit at least to pay for costs? It is not free to run an organization that has the fastest growth in the industry.(which is why Orrin has been highly recognized by Quixtar). By the way, “fastest growth” means more IBO’s becoming financially free than other organizations. You gotta admit, there’s something to that. That means the TEAM system WORKS. —- You need to separate the costs needed to pay for costs and MA$$IVE tool profits for the upline. He was recognized for growth, but he was also being corrected for violations for the past 6 years. There were also many more IBO’s bled for their tool money for every “success” story. You gotta admit, there’s something to that.
Actually, TEAM produced books are usually CHEAPER than all the rest of the books for the very reason you mentioned that there are less middle men involved. —- The skinny little $12 “Leading the Consumer Rebellion” wasn’t worth the paper it was printed on.
I spend about $100 each month on tools and I get paid $100 per month just for having 15 people in my organization which I didn’t necessarily put in myself. It’s great! If you call that a scam then I don’t know what a scam is. —- How many IBO’s have 15 people in their group in the first month, and how many of those are in a single leg that wouldn’t come close to a $100 profit?
“I have been active on various blogs for over 2 years, reported the problems to the FTC and reported the TEAM rules violations at Opens and a Seminar to Quixtar, by telephone, e-mail, registered letters, and face to face discussions with Quixtar lawyers (the last one started after the lawsuits were started).”
I applaud your tenacity. But I can’t help but wonder if you spent as much energy on this “scam” stuff as you did on your Amway business, you would be successful enough that it wouldn’t matter to you or your organization what other people are doing. —- The reason it matters is because as long as most IBO’s are getting scammed, the business is threatened for its very existance. Why would I want to spend my time, money, and effort on something that could very well disappear if the tool scam isn’t fixed?
As long as people are still “independent” business owners, you will always have to deal with people starting what you call “tool scams” (although I don’t understand what your definition of “tool scam” is) so you will be spending most of your life fighting that then growing your business. Suit yourself. —- I think there will be far less “independence” allowed in the tool scam area in the future.
November 4th, 2007 at 12:54 am
amazed #623,
I’m thankful Orrin and Co. is in the dust-bin of history.
Scipio #625,
In typical lying cowardly “kingpin” fashion, you didn’t answer the question, so I have repeated it here:
When I want to take advice from a lying cowardly tool scammer, you’ll be the first to be notified, promise. What is your current qualification, and how much Quixtar versus tool scam money do you make?
November 4th, 2007 at 1:00 am
AEM #626,
What I stated was 100% consistent with what I witnessed at several Opens and a Seminar.
Rico #628,
I think GirlPower was illustrating a point, not insulting a group of people, you PC moron.
You may find that Orrin and Co.’s 6 month clock is going to “restarted” by the time Feb 08 rolls around.
November 4th, 2007 at 1:15 am
janedoe #629,
You know Tex, you keep on and on about the “tool scam” and are blaming that for the loss of retail profit. —- That’s correct, because it is true.
What you don’t seem to understand is: customers will not pay the Q* suggested retail price from an IBO when they can purchase comparable products at local stores for less money. So, we have to sell for less than Q* suggested retail price but not lower than IBO cost and HOPE that we end up with enough PV, and that we bracket the person below us, just to make a little bit of money. —- I’ve stated many times the full retail prices are too high for customers, at least in my area of the country, and that’s why I charge IBO price and forego the retail markup profit, which only affects me for my own customers anyway, so it’s not that big of a deal.
Even with selling at IBO cost, the prices are higher than what most people want to pay. —- There are many examples where this is NOT true, but focus on what you want to, and continue your whining.
I stated in an earlier post, that at the open meetings, it was very clear (at least to us)that the money we would really make was from tools. —- What did they say to make that clear? I never heard a single word that would leave that impression.
This is what we saw and why it was clear to us: Night Owl… one leg with 40 or 50 ON SYSTEM, second leg with 20 ON SYSTEM, 2K - 3K a month. —- Did they specifically say that was system money, or that system people would buy more of the products, and the profit came from the products?
We definitly knew that having 60 or 70 different businesses in our downline, would not generate 2K-3K a month; not when most IBO’s barely do 50pv a month. —- Did they say IBO’s barely do 50 PV a month?
Not only that, but we are not that naive to think that there wasn’t money being made on the “system” that we were buying. We do know that we could purchase “blank” CD’s for about $0.25 each. It is the information on them that make them priceless. —- I always thought SOME money was also being made, I just didn’t realize how MA$$IVE it was compared to the Quixtar profit.
Yes, we know that they all say about the same thing. So do Country Music CD’s… pick-up trucks, beer, women and dogs. Once you bought one, why buy any more? If you like country music, you do; if you don’t, you won’t. —- Apples and oranges.
College text books… you can pay thousands out for books and classes, in just one semester, with no guarantee that you are going to make any money from what you learned. No the college made a lot of money, the college book store made a ton on the books and the instructors are making money to teach you something that will hopefully help you make money. I don’t see a difference here, but that is my opinion, doesn’t make it right or wrong. —- The difference is the college and text book folks don’t claim to be your “business partner” and “teammate”.
Q* isn’t doing what they are doing because of tools. Take a look at what lines they have accredited… all of the “old Amway family” people; MMP (MarkerMan himself, Jody Victor), eFinity (Bill Childers, Tim Foley), and ProSystem One (Giove Pici & Tom Armour…not sure who they are). I do know that MMP and eFinity are all “old Amway” people. Since the only way we are going to earn that pass-up money is for you or your platinum to be affiliated with one of them… —- The accreditation process used to be optional, now it is optional only if you are willing to give up the QBI bonuses. The accreditation itself is seriously flawed, as it does little to expose the tool scam. It’s like getting the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval on a toy that came from China and has lead paint all over it.
So Tex, where is the scam now?? To me, it appears as if Q*/A/A is making their own tool scam!
November 4th, 2007 at 1:24 am
bogdonovich #630,
You appear to be confused…
The Team tool profit sharing program is typical of many other tool system “fair plans”. You are from the stone age if you think other tool systems still use the “good old boy” method of paying out to the favorites. How can you say these plans are fair when TEAM required the tool profits to be kept secret?
Alticor/Amway/Quixtar should not say that. Not all of the profit made by the company (outside of overhead) is available to the IBO. —- Of course not, they took the risks, they deserve the profits.
There are certain people who do have a special deal based on who they are. —- Such as?
You’ve said that you “stick to the facts” - those are the facts. —- Go for it.
November 4th, 2007 at 3:22 am
IBOFightback contends that HIS upline gets paid for both speaking at functions and making CDs that are part of the ‘professional development’ program…
…yet he implies that the amount of money made from those activities is not larger than the Amway income those leaders make.
That may be fine for Platinum and Emerald…but he can provide nothing showing that this is true for anyone higher than that.
Nor can he quantify how the ’system’ actually helps people make more money in the ‘biz.’ He can show how it creates more PV (um - because the system TELLS them to have ’so much volume’ each month - and as he has said in the past - if they don’t reach their ‘volume’, they should try to sell things to make it)…
In a REAL business, volume IS money, and profit. That’s not entirely true for Am/Quix…where the VAST majority of volume for each IBO is self-consumption. And where does the VAST majority of profit come from in that kind of system? IBO pockets. Just like the ‘tools.’
Stop trying to eat your way to financial freedom. That has never worked for anyone. IBOFightsback also knows that…but, like Tex, he’s busy defending the Corp.
November 4th, 2007 at 4:06 am
AM BACK!!!
TEX YOU STILL CRYING!!!
SAD & CONFUSED WITH THAT NAME YOU DONT NEED TOOLS TO GROW YOUR GROUP,YOU NEED TO WAKEEE UPPPPP!!!!!! #578 POST
GIRL POWER,STOP TO EAT I LOT OF SUGAR IT’S NOT GOOD FOR YOUR BRAIN!!
GUYS……….. VIVA TEAMMMMMMMM!!!!!!1
WE’RE HAVING FUN..
WHEN QUIXTAR IT’S FIGHTING
November 4th, 2007 at 4:15 am
SIT DOWN TO WATCH TEX-Y
COMING SOON……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
November 4th, 2007 at 7:51 am
bogdonovich #630 - the Team tool profit sharing program is the only fair plan? Great! So you know how all the dozens of other organizations share their profit? Fantastic! Care to enlighten us, I’m sure I’m not the only one who’d like to know.
Oh - you don’t know what all the others do? You just made that part up? How about sticking to those facts?
November 4th, 2007 at 10:24 am
Update Facts: Quixtar v Bloggers & First Amendment
“Quixtar’s complaint is a cynical; vindictive assault on the constitutions rights of private citizens to freedom of speech and freedom of association enshrined in the 1st Amendment of the US Constitution and Article 1, sections 3 & 5 of the Michigan Constitution,” states Daniel A O’Brien, attorney for the John Doe defendents.
November 4th, 2007 at 11:32 am
Thanks duckpond #612, it is great to see many other people with intregity. Jerry Harteis resigning from Quixtar/Amway is a sign of the future, they have INTREGITY.
November 4th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
Interesting, I took some time to read a few more posts than usual (which means a few). :0)
Basically, if I have it right, most of the team blames Quixtar for everything and most people staying with Quixtar blame the systems (tools, etc) and people like Orrin for everything. Not 100%, but basically. :0)
Why don’t we call it exactly what it is: Both the team and Quixtar has very rich, very successful businesses they built. Both want to keep making a lot of money off their respective businesses. Quixtar doesn’t want Orrin and the team pushing their tools 1st and Quixtar 2nd. Orrin and the team doesn’t want Quixtar to get in the way of them promoting their tools first. And both have EARNED the right to feel that way based on their activities and business building over the years. If you want Orrin money or Quixtar money than go out on your own and earn it. Also……
Both the team and Quixtar KNEW (it’s in the rules) Quixtar always had the power. Everyone also KNEW most of the lawsuits revolved around tool businesses. And for a lot of years nobody ever said anything on either side because they had a good working relationship. They mutually benefitted off each other. Quixtar needs IBO’s buying products. Orrin needed Quixtar to get the people in his system. It was his years of learning in Quixtar/Amway that helped him continue to develop his system. Do you think he would have come up with his system on a job?
It wasn’t until Quixtar decided to start regulating tools that Orrin had a problem. This is all about two organizations trying to protect their respective businesses. Nothing more, nothing less. And it’s no different than every single company that comes into existance (how many times do employees hear about profits, stockholders, etc.?).
And the only difference I see is this: Quixtar/Amway had already built their business. They were successful before Orrin. And they had rules and regulations (and, yes, they have changed throughout the years) in place. It was their business. They allowed people like Orrin in. And Orrin signed up for, and kept renewing, his business with Quixtar. But all along Orrin was a Quixtar IBO. And Orrin never had a problem with any of that until Quixtar was going to have a say in his tool business.
Again, this is business. We can throw out words like morals, integrity, character, etc. and I think you will find those characteristics on both sides. But this is about business, period. If it wasn’t, Orrin would have gone away quietly, and when he did, Quixtar would have let him.
November 4th, 2007 at 12:39 pm
Alticor: Your wish was our command:
“Just Go TEAM …” I SAY:
“Just Go ALTICOR … ” leave us alone!
We already left, TENS of THOUSANDS of us have LEFT … Now you’re fighting. You’re not dealing with the typical employee here. You had better think about the ramifications. You have the money to fight one entity. But, what if?
You didn’t say Orrin, Chris, Tim, Billy, Don, Randy, Jerry, etc… You said: “JUST GO TEAM …. ”
What did you think was going to happen? You don’t OWN me and I am not your PROPERTY or SLAVE. I left because I have lost the TRUST that I had in the American Way Corporation’s policies for over 30 years.
If I wanted another job, I would have stayed as your PROPERTY or EMPLOYEE to SELL the Amway Sales and Marketing Plan for what has become a typical American Corporation, AMWAY. I decided to LEAVE.
I’m staying with the 150,000+ leaders that I trust. My friends and family, the people that help me every day. The people I can call on the phone to just say hi. (They’re angry too, you don’t own them either!)
So, choose your fights. You will not win the war this time. According to court documents you may have had the upper hand with:
> Former Diamond: Andy Andrew’s iTEAM
> Former Crown Ambasador Kenny Stewart
> Former Diamond Charlie Schmitz
> Former Double Diamond Brigg Hart
> Former Diamond Bo Short
and
> Former Diamond Wayne Anderson, etc…
… but we have learned from their experiences.
November 4th, 2007 at 7:55 pm
janedoe #629 (continued),
So Tex, where is the scam now?? To me, it appears as if Q*/A/A is making their own tool scam! —- The tool scam is in the same place it has been for several decades, with the lying cowardly “kingpins”. Have you seen the prices on the DVD’s/CD’s Quixtar sells, they are fraction of how much the “kingpins” charge, and you’re not expected to buy several every week, either.
November 4th, 2007 at 8:52 pm
rdknyvr #620
Interesting comment regarding Orrin and Chris’s book saying “but they’ve made some irreversible mistakes too”. Seeing that this book has no direct connection to ‘this business’ but to general success principles, what did you mean by that comment?
November 4th, 2007 at 9:45 pm
Hey! Lets see if this one will get blocked like my last two blogs! I am now no longer and IBO. (hold the applause TEX) Good luck Quixtar! I hope some day you learn. I feel so bad for all your employees. So many jobs…
November 4th, 2007 at 10:41 pm
Tex (631),
The reason I know Doug Devos knows that WWDB makes this outlandish claim that one can “expect to earn $57,000 in the first year” is because it is written on the Quixtar approved WWDB Private Franchising Review! Also, there is a big difference between marketing and fraud.
By the way, have you seen how Quixtar tried to sell goofy weight loss shakes through Dr. Phil? Auixtar paid over $10 million to settle the case of the milkshakes that didn’t do what they were supposed to. I wonder why they would sell their shakes through Dr. Phil and retail stores and circumvent their IBOs.
November 4th, 2007 at 11:03 pm
Dave Mc #635,
What is this, the stupid quote contest?
Dave Mc #636,
You’re the winner. That was was even more stupid than the first.
Mitchell #638,
What makes you think Quixtar is going away? TEAM is getting crushed in the court system, and the arbitration hasn’t even started. That’s when you will hear the gnashing of Orrin’s teeth, ripping of his clothing, and putting ashes on his head. Too bad most of it will be behind the scenes and hidden from view.
John #642,
I agree with most of your post, but if you think Quixtar is going to leave Duncan alone because he is part of the XS deal, I think you are mistaken. The other “kingpins” being put in their proper place won’t allow Duncan to continue his tool scam while the rest of them can’t. XS may be a popular product, but it is only one product.
Porkchopjim #649,
You are correct to challenge ibofb on the tool scam, but you are also mistaken when it comes to Quixtar profit. Many of the products are competitively priced, so if IBO’s purchased these for their own use only (ignoring the retail requirement for illustration purposes only), then even the “bottom” IBO’s would be no worse off than buying similar products at a store, but get the bonus back the more volume they have in their organizations. If an IBO has width and depth, it only takes a couple dozen of IBO’s to earn a bonus the size that pays for their products, and any larger group results in even more profit. Adding the customers back into the mix only increases profit further. Get a clue.
November 4th, 2007 at 11:14 pm
TEAM_MEX #650/1,
You’re an idiot, but I’m sure the rest of the TEAMtesterone Orrinites love your posts.
In2Win #653,
There’s a big difference between the First Amendment and a court order deemed necessary to protect a business reputation. Grow up.
But I’m sure TEAM lawyer Daniel A O’Brien gets the TEAMtosterone Orrinites “fired up” with such ridiculous language. After all, he probably has a family to feed, clothe, and keep a roof over their head like the rest of us, so statements like this keep his billable hours as high as possible. Perhaps fellow scammers can’t recognize each other.
November 4th, 2007 at 11:23 pm
SAK #654,
Birds of a tool scam feather flock together. Good riddance, Jerry you tool scammer. Another one bites the dust, and another one gone….
freedom #655,
There is a huge difference between an above the table business and a sleazy, below the table business. The first is A/Q, the second is the various tool scams. Orrin’s termination had very little to do with his tool scam, it had much more to do with 6 years of various and repeated rules violations.
November 5th, 2007 at 12:00 am
Bruce #656,
Alticor: Your wish was our command: “Just Go TEAM …” I SAY: “Just Go ALTICOR … ” leave us alone! —- That wasn’t a wish from Quixtar, it was a command. It was in response to an “illegal pyramid” lawsuit, and you will be “left alone” after Quixtar gets their pound of flesh for that and other bonehead maneuvers.
We already left, TENS of THOUSANDS of us have LEFT … Now you’re fighting. You’re not dealing with the typical employee here. You had better think about the ramifications. You have the money to fight one entity. But, what if? —- You have left, but you have the remainder of the 6 month and 2 year waiting periods to go. Orrin and Co. may have to wait much longer. You may even end up as their upline, assuming they get back into MLM, instead of what I think Orrin will do, and follow Andy Andrews on the speaking tour, after TIF got booted.
You didn’t say Orrin, Chris, Tim, Billy, Don, Randy, Jerry, etc… You said: “JUST GO TEAM …. ” —- And if you had half a brain cell, you would have read the article and understood the headline was directed towards the “leaders” of TEAM and their methods. It was an IQ test, and you failed. Bub-bye.
What did you think was going to happen? You don’t OWN me and I am not your PROPERTY or SLAVE. I left because I have lost the TRUST that I had in the American Way Corporation’s policies for over 30 years. —- Hit the road, your IQ isn’t high enough to be an IBO.
If I wanted another job, I would have stayed as your PROPERTY or EMPLOYEE to SELL the Amway Sales and Marketing Plan for what has become a typical American Corporation, AMWAY. I decided to LEAVE. —- Made my day. Bub-bye.
I’m staying with the 150,000+ leaders that I trust. My friends and family, the people that help me every day. The people I can call on the phone to just say hi. (They’re angry too, you don’t own them either!) —- That’s a lot of leaders. Are you sure they are ALL leaders?
So, choose your fights. You will not win the war this time. According to court documents you may have had the upper hand with:
> Former Diamond: Andy Andrew’s iTEAM
> Former Crown Ambasador Kenny Stewart
> Former Diamond Charlie Schmitz
> Former Double Diamond Brigg Hart
> Former Diamond Bo Short
and
> Former Diamond Wayne Anderson, etc…
… but we have learned from their experiences. —- I know all those stories. By the way, Andy Andrews was TIF, and it’s Bruce Anderson. You haven’t learned a thing from them, or you not only would have gotten the tool system and names right, Orrin and Co. wouldn’t have submitted the “illegal pyramid” lawsuit to begin with. You’re a joke, and not the funny kind.
November 5th, 2007 at 12:09 am
Thunderstruck #658,
Sorry, I wasn’t very clear there. I didn’t mean it in relation to the book, but to the choices and events of the past few months. That’s something we’ll probably agree to disagree on, cordially, hopefully.
November 5th, 2007 at 12:14 am
Thunderdunce #658,
I think he was referring to the “illegal pyramid” lawsuit.
SPARTAN #659,
Hey! Lets see if this one will get blocked like my last two blogs! —- You must have said some amazing things, as these moderators allow virtually any post.
I am now no longer and IBO. (hold the applause TEX) Good luck Quixtar! I hope some day you learn. I feel so bad for all your employees. So many jobs… —- So what are you going to do now, become an English teacher? If so, check your first sentence. How can you be both “no longer and IBO”? No applause from me, you failed the IQ test. Bub-bye. I hope some day you learn. The Quixtar employees are delighted to work with IBO’s who don’t scam others and have some common sense. It’s a good change for them, after dealing with the TEAMtosterone filled Orrinites.
November 5th, 2007 at 12:23 am
John #660,
The reason I know Doug Devos knows that WWDB makes this outlandish claim that one can “expect to earn $57,000 in the first year” is because it is written on the Quixtar approved WWDB Private Franchising Review! —- As I asked before, what was the context of this statement? Was it a guarantee or part of “if you do this work, you can expect this kind of profit”. You dodged answering that part of the response. Besides, what makes you think Doug personally knows all the details of what is approved?
Also, there is a big difference between marketing and fraud. —- Agreed, but you haven’t shown much understanding of either.
By the way, have you seen how Quixtar tried to sell goofy weight loss shakes through Dr. Phil? Auixtar paid over $10 million to settle the case of the milkshakes that didn’t do what they were supposed to. I wonder why they would sell their shakes through Dr. Phil and retail stores and circumvent their IBOs. —- I saw how they were apparently involved in the manufacturing of some products, but were apparently NOT involved in the claims and marketing of those products. They manufacture products for many other companies, and this doesn’t “circumvent their IBO’s”, it keeps their manufacturing equipment returning profit on the investment. You’re not this clueless, are you?
November 5th, 2007 at 12:33 am
Tex,
Explain to me again where TEAM is getting “crushed” in the court system? C’mon now…bring out those amazing “facts” you’re relying on there…
I’ve already agreed that you may be right about what arbitration holds for Orrin and Chris, etc…since the process is the biggest home court advantage possible for the Amway boys. But your comment about TEAM getting crushed in the “court system” is laughable.
November 5th, 2007 at 1:22 am
Tex (667),
Google “WWDB Private Franchising Review” and read it for yourself. The context is, “you can expect $57,000 in the first year”. It doesn’t even matter what the context is because absolutely no Quixtar IBO can “expect” to earn $57,000 in their first year. Hundreds of thousands try & how many do - virtually None. Thus they cannot “expect” to do so. This is tools scam and fraud. And the buck stops with Devos and VanAndel. It is their company.
Do you think that Alticor doesn’t know what they put in their goofy weight loss shakes & the rediculous pear shaped body weight loss formula? Do you honestly think they didn’t know the claims being made about them? If they didn’t know what was in the shakes they manufactured & the claims being made, then they are worse than I thought they were. By the way, I appreciate your spirit & I can’t wait for part 2 of this blog. Maybe we’ll see who Quixtar can think of to sue next.
November 5th, 2007 at 3:37 am
#562: Steven from Utah: (Some random responses to your very long posting.)
I didn’t state my LOS, because I don’t want this to generate into a system advertising blog. All I am trying to show everybody, especially the TEAM one-eyed supporters, that they are a small fish in a big pond. Some humility would suit them well.
Surprise, surprise, contrary to what TEAM may have told you, you DID join a product business.
You obviously didn’t read De Vos’s original mail that you “quote” from. If you had, you would have seen that as part of preparing for a strategic review, he asked the respondents what the business was about, and asked “Are we in the self-consumption business?
Actually, people do need to be taught how to brush their teeth, there are some principals around that. But product training would not teach you that, it would teach you that Glister particles are much rounder than those of other toothpastes. How much do you know about Nutrilite? What are the RDI for the various vitamins and minerals? What is Saw Palmetto good for? Beta-Carotene? Omega 3? Why doesn’t Q have Omega 6? Or are YOU in a self-consumption business?
>>>the fastest growth in n.america period…..FACT
>> team effected more peoples lives in a shorter amount of time than any other group of diamonds/crowns in corporation history…FACT
November 5th, 2007 at 3:49 am
Tex #644,
“In the end it really does matter. They have further exposed all tool system pricing scams and they will still get to start their own business, but they will be so broke, disgraced, and virtually alone they will have to start all over. That’s better for everyone.”
I don’t know if you realize this but there was a major convention in KY a couple weekends ago with only 20,000 people expected to show up. But instead, 38,000 people showed and packed the overflow arena so it is still growing even without an “opportunity” in existence. I can bet my life savings (which isn’t much) that over 90% of those people in attendance will get involved in their new business when it starts. So if you consider that “alone” and “starting all over” then I guess we just have different definitions of that. I, for one, would be just fine with starting a business with 35,000 loyal people already in place.
“He was recognized for growth, but he was also being corrected for violations for the past 6 years.”
Can you give me any evidence of these “violation corrections for the past 6 years?”
“There were also many more IBO’s bled for their tool money for every ’success’ story. You gotta admit, there’s something to that.”
Many IBO’s were bled from product overpricing for every “success story” as well. And the worst part of that is that there is no one to blame for that except for AmQuix itself!
“The skinny little $12 “Leading the Consumer Rebellion” wasn’t worth the paper it was printed on.”
“The skinny little $12 book” was a tool that helped many people become financially free. So for many, it is priceless and the measly $12 is a joke. If a mere $12 tool is going to hang you up and crush your dreams of financial freedom, then you might as well quit now.
“How many IBO’s have 15 people in their group in the first month, and how many of those are in a single leg that wouldn’t come close to a $100 profit?”
That is the beauty of TEAM. This kind of growth is probably unheard of to you because you are not aware of how powerful TEAM approach depth really is. That is why TEAM was undoubtedly the fastest growing organization out there, hence Orrin and Laurie’s recognition.
I applaud your tenacity. But I can’t help but wonder if you spent as much energy on this “scam” stuff as you did on your Amway business, you would be successful enough that it wouldn’t matter to you or your organization what other people are doing. —- “The reason it matters is because as long as most IBO’s are getting scammed, the business is threatened for its very existance. Why would I want to spend my time, money, and effort on something that could very well disappear if the tool scam isn’t fixed?”
Again, as long as IBO’s are independent, this will be a problem until the end of time. So you’re wasting your time, energy, breath, and you might as well save yourself from carpal tunnel syndrome.
“I think there will be far less ‘independence’ allowed in the tool scam area in the future.”
And actually, that makes sense AmQuix seems to be taking a lot more “independence” from ABO’s now aside from the whole tools issue. They’re making amendments to YOUR contracts with them, so you’re FORCED to accept those changes unless you want to lose your entire business, which essentially means that you’ve ultimately been downgraded from a “business owner” to an employee. So how does that feel?
November 5th, 2007 at 8:42 am
Tex #666 (how appropriate)
Just can’t keep your big flapper shut can you? Please butt out of dialog I have with others. Let him answer. Dang you are the insect that just wont go away.
November 5th, 2007 at 8:55 am
whatever #668,
Are you trying to “conveniently forget” about TEAM getting its head handed to it in the CA “illegal pyramid” lawsuit? You know, the one that was DISMISSED WITH PREJUDICE?
You haven’t seen anything yet, compared to what will happen behind the closed doors of arbitration, where the burden of proof and evidence rules are much more open than in a court.
Your various TRO “victories” are hollow victories. They are temporary, were based on only your side giving their slanted arguments, and you even lost some that Quixtar never attended. That’s not something to be proud of, by the way.
Those are the facts, read them and weep. I’ll take care of the laughing.
November 5th, 2007 at 9:04 am
John #642
You have a great question. Unfortunantly, your self answer is not correct. If you understood how our tool system bonus payout worked you would know that their Q bonus was not “just a fraction”. I know for a fact that our leaders sacrificed millions of dollars to stand for their principles, if they were just money hungry, as your answer suggests, then they could have waited until after Aug 31 to meet the Q and received their diamond bonuses. You see, these guys aren’t in this anymore for the money, but for the cause. What is the cause? Their cause is about educating and developing leadership to make an inpact on our culture. I’m sure you will agree that this country of ours spews negativity, lacks responsibility, and is in a downward spiral culturally. Orrin and Chris want to change this (and they will).
So the question is posed again, Why would they walk away from their diamond income? The answer, I believe, is their is something of vast significance coming in the near future. I can’t say this for a fact, but I, like thousands of others believe it. What is this significance? Don’t know for sure cause, unlike what Q is saying happened at our Convention in Kentucky, a new business has not been announced. What about after the six months I’m not positive, but I am very excited and can’t wait. See, we truly trust these guys. Why? cause they have been fair, open, and most of all…..leaders for us. Anybody who criticizes Orrin and Chris and our tool system just doesn’t understand. No, I am not following blindly, I am following because my eyes have been opened.
I know that they walked away from a diamond income because they could no longer affiliate with the business such a Quixtar/Amway/Alticor because those companies are run by people who care only for their bottom dollar. And couldn’t care less for helping others.
November 5th, 2007 at 1:14 pm
tex,
“You have left, but you have the remainder of the 6 month and 2 year waiting periods to go. Orrin and Co. may have to wait much longer”.
why?
Unless you know something I don’t they stopped being IBO’s on aug 9th 2007. Which means feb 9th 2008 they can start whatever business they want and on aug 9th 2009 they can promote it to whoever they want. The fact the case went into arbitration doesn’t effect that at all.
November 5th, 2007 at 1:34 pm
Tex 648
You appear to be confused. . my comments are in brackets.
The Team tool profit sharing program is typical of many other tool system “fair plans”.
[How can you know this? 1 seminar and a few opens and you’re ready to compare profit sharing systems huh? Plus you’ve asked so many times for the exact numbers, which makes me think you don’t have them. So 1 seminar, maybe 3 opens, you never saw the numbers for the profit sharing, that means you don’t know what you’re talking about. You simply don’t know enough to compare the way Team ran it’s tool business to the way any other organization ran theirs.]
You are from the stone age if you think other tool systems still use the “good old boy” method of paying out to the favorites. How can you say these plans are fair when TEAM required the tool profits to be kept secret?
[Team did not ask for secrecy when it came to system profits. Team asked for transparency, Quixtar asked for secrecy. Team had a diagram on their site showing how all profit from the system is set aside and is available for every IBO plugged into the Team system. They talked about it on CD’s, they talked about it from stage. My upline platinum showed me the compensation plan. It was hardly secret.]
November 5th, 2007 at 1:58 pm
Tex #664.
I know, I can’t believe I read part of your comment. Sad. I promise, I typically just skip 95% of your posts. That said:
Re: Go, Team Go..
Try reading it again. If you were associated with anyone named in the post, are you telling me you wouldn’t be offended?
http://media.alticorblogs.com/2007/08/10/just-go-team/
Also, take a look at the New IBOAI board. As near as I can tell, there is no one in my LOS, with the possibility that now Jody Victor’s parents both being gone, Jody would become upline to Dexter.
Kathy was on the board. I think she still is.
My sponsors are still in, and I think I know someone else upline that will still stay.
This is only because of the actions of Q/A, not anything else.
November 5th, 2007 at 3:04 pm
#633 Tex
I do agree that the First Circle has been talked about for a couple of years. The first I think that the leadership—Platinums—heard about it was at last year’s Achiever’s in November 2006.
Then it was talked about to everyone at Connections in June of this year.
Then the Corp did the Leader to Leader webcast in September. They first showed all the Platinums and above, and then opened it for all IBOs to see. This webcast explained the First Circle Initiative, particularly all the QBI money geared toward those who retail.
I wouldn’t say that the First Circle hasn’t been launched. I think September (two months ago) is when it started to be launched—with the new QBI money, Quixtar University, Simply Nutrilite, and Artistry Essentials.
And the name back to Amway (in June). Changing the name is forcing IBOs to acknowledge that the authentic Quixtar/Amway Business is one based on retailing, which is then duplicated.
A couple of things will result:
*The deception will end regarding what business someone is actually looking at (and got in to)
*The Corp will be forced to offer products that can stand on their own REGARDLESS of a business opportunity attached to it.
If this is going to work (retailing at the full suggested retail price), then the IBOs, particularly the major Systems, are going to have to stop teaching (and doing) the 100%-loyal-to-your-own-business insanity.
The Corp has taken advantage of our “blind” loyalty. And that game is ending slowly but surely.
Regarding your concern about retail money being then used for more System abuse: This is such a major transformation, that I think the leaders of LOAs are going to be on board or not. You cannot embrace the PHILOSOPHY, the WHY, of the First Circle Initiative, and then turn around and be abusive with the System. The System will be *overhauled* to support the First Circle Initiative or not.
I just think magnitude of this paradigm shift for everyone is so big, that no one will be able to hold on to both worlds.
Some will try. But the perversion will end. You’ve already seen it with a bunch of Diamonds resigning—some more tactfully than others.
My concern is for all the IBOs who are part of a System that is NOT going with this Transformation. What will the Corp do with all these “orphans”, those wishing to continue their Quixtar/Amway business?
It’s hard unless you have some personal support. Mentoring is really important for ANY success. And I just don’t think the Corp has what it takes (nor should it) to be that for people.
So it’s the orphaned IBOs who I’m most concerned about.
Okay. Must go follow up with a customer now.
November 5th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
Haven’t been on this site for a while, where is “Part 2″ guys….still hoping to find a judge in Nevada to rule in your favor before posting a “Part 2″ to this post?
November 5th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
Hey everyone