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October 24th, 2007 @ 8:45 pm ET…

Why we fight, part 1

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After being on the defensive for 20 straight legal attacks, we filed suit yesterday against the corporation that owns TEAM.

We filed suit because the single legal case we brought (and won) in this matter listed Orrin Woodward as a defendant—but Woodward then claimed to have magically disappeared as the manager of TEAM before the case was heard. (A legal trick like that is like pretending Rich and Jay have nothing to do with our company—but never mind. We’ll straighten it out.)

We filed suit because TEAM has had multiple chances to play by the rules in this dispute, but have gambled that they do not have to play by them. They have interfered with non-compete agreements. They have interfered with non-solicitation agreements. They refuse to arbitrate.

But most of all, we are filing suit because TEAM has taken proprietary business information from Quixtar that IBOs could be using right now to build Quixtar businesses.

If you leave your place of work today, you would leave behind your tools and information so that those who remain can carry on the business. You can’t help yourself to your computer, the stapler, the coffeemaker—or the company’s customer list.

That is ethically and morally wrong. It is also legally wrong. And that’s why we filed suit.

Filed by: Corporate Communications

Posted in: Alticor, Amway, Quixtar, Transformation

959 Responses to “Why we fight, part 1” (501 - 600 shown)

Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 10 » Show All

Negative Nancy Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 1:35 pm
Happy Halloween everyone! Enjoy your day/night with your kids…I have been having a blast with the kids and their school parities. Love you all, especially Tex!:)
Tex Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 1:43 pm
cmon.people.think #452,

I just return fire. Your pea-shooters against my 16″ battleship guns. I have offered to not insult, as long as you push back on the other offenders. So far, no takers, so the barrage continues….

Thunderdunce #453,

I like your posts and how you think. If you look at the whole picture and think that achieving the diamond level is the only success, you miss the point about the training system. See, what we have learned transcends this opportunity. I previously listed (among others) the benefits I have received as a result of applying what the tools teach. I am not a diamond, but I am more successful now than ever. On the other hand, if NOBODY has reached diamond without a training system, and even if a few have done it with a system,
I like my odds with rather than without. —- You have just described something that has other side benefits, but does not deliver on its main purpose.

I agree these are good books, but this is no excuse to pad the tool scam with more MA$$IVE profit.

Although your friend had a very good story, that is still not an excuse for the tool scam. If the tools had cost less, would he have not had a similar benefit?

The Quixtar numbers are “sad”, and they could be much better than the numbers with high prices. that produce MA$$IVE profits.
Tex Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 1:50 pm
Courious #454,

Can someone tell me what a “Quixtar Independant Business Operator” is? —- I don’t know, but I can tell what a Quixtar Independent Business Owner is. Would you like to know?

Jerad #455,

That sounds about right. I wonder how much of that Quixtar can extract from Orrin and Co.?

John #456,

I agree 100%. With no markup.
Tex Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 2:00 pm
Chuck #458,

Thanks for the examples of not just Diamonds, but CROWNS that didn’t rely on the tool scam.

Also for suggesting they give the money back, which I think will happen when they get to arbitration, and then some.

John #464,

My response is “waiting moderation”. There have apparently been some technical issues with the blog. I try to leave no error uncorrected.

Jerad #465,

You made no sense, please explain yourself.
Thunderstruck Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 2:38 pm
John #463

Unfortunantly I am not familiar with your program. Orrin and Chris talk of a 2-5 plan, but I never recall them stating what to “expect”. That to me seems out of line. In fact, we always stress that nothing is guaranteed, but we do use examples of people who have achieved financial independence with our system, and you too CAN achieve the same results. We used to list some expected pay scales once you built your team to certain levels, (we would state the basic earnings of the platinum level), but we never told anyone to expect to hit the level itself, only how to get to that level.

The great thing about a system is that it doesn’t matter where you started or your background, the system is the same for all, and everyone has equal OPPORTUNITY. To “expect” results I would think could get you in trouble.

Tex #502

Your response to me is meaningless since my post was not for you. Since you cannot carry on a resposible and dignified exchange I will no longer answer your posts (until you decide to change). John appears to be looking for truth, you are just looking for a fight and I refuse to go there.
Tex Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 2:43 pm
Mary Ann #467,

It was an observation, but an inaccurate one. But who cares, the facts don’t matter in your “universe”, right?

Pa $468/9,

You just asked someone a question, then answered it yourself. Is your answer accurate?

AEM #470,

The question is more the incentive created for upline via the MA$$IVE tool profits, not whether the tools are a “good deal” compared to other tools or are used. How many more people could/would use the tools if they were less expensive?

Whether people follow the pattern also depends if they can AFFORD the system.
Tex Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 2:55 pm
Mark #471,

Bingo, that is precisely what Rich DeVos said in 1983, using different words. It is still true to this day.

Pa #472,

Those poor Crowns and Diamonds, I feel real sorry for them….NOT.

rdknyvr #473,

I agree. When Rich identified the tool scam in 1983 and made the “Directly Speaking” recordings, a much higher percentage of the Amway business was in the U.S./Canada. The decrease from the TEAM fiasco will be a bargain compared to the continuation of the tool scam in the long run.

AEM #474,

This isn’t the 60’s, that’s why. I’m glad you agree we need tool profit transparency.

Qless #475,

You make good points, but this still doesn’t explain the tool scam, which has been in place for several decades.
john Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 2:56 pm
Tex (499),

So are you saying that only 1 in 55,555 IBOs have the diamond mentality and effort. It doesn’t say much for the “proven systems of success” that provide motivation. It is interesting that only 1 in 55,555 get there when all I hear from IBOs is “I am all fired up”.
Tex Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 2:59 pm
amazed #476,

How do you know the IBOAI didn’t give their input for the new rules? In fact, some of the Orrinites have APPLIED the new rules against other IBO’s in the past.

The contract protects IBO’s, not IBO’s who no longer want to be IBO’s. That is how it should be. The IBOAI took the side of following the rules. Just because others in the IBOAI broke the rules doesn’t mean they should side with those IBO’s.
Thunderstruck Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 3:01 pm
John #483

I got in Quixtar in 2001, and got “on system” the night I signed up, didn’t want to, thought it was stupid. Until I listened to some CD’s and I was hooked. I love the system and couldn’t imagine being without it, and lately I was really able to pin it down to “why”. I recently read a book entitled “What to Say When You Talk To Yourself” by Shad Helmstetter. Instead of me explaining in long and boring dialog, get the book and read it, then you’ll understand.

Was is told to me that our system would help my Quixtar business….YES, early and often. Our entire concept is based on bettering yourself and guiding others to do the same. While Quixtar hates the concept of being a “supplier” I think “so what”, introducing others to Quixtar while being part of a development program was a great one,two punch. I know it’s more complicated than this but I don’t want to rant all day. So not only was I TOLD it would help my Quixtar business, it did.
I will not divulge my income but I will tell you I was doing well over $40,000 a year. Last year was the best I had.

In addition to TEAM, I have been a business owner starting in 1992(not competing with Quixtar I swear) and since TEAM not only did I continually increase my profits, but was able to reduce my hours to less than half than before “system”! Prior to TEAM, my other business flatlined three straight years. I can only say that I applied what I learned and got results here too, and this is why I am such a believer, I applied what I studied, and it worked in many areas of my life. I hope this helps.
Jerad Smith Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 3:06 pm
rdknyvr#473,

Remember, these are losses in just one quarter. Times them by 4 to get an estimated annual loss. $500,000,000? That’s almost half of Q’s 1.2B annual North American gross. Will future growth compansate? I doubt it as their “growth” has been flat in North America for 20 YEARS!

Tex#504,

I made perfect sense. Reread the post.
Tex Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 3:06 pm
janedoe #478,

I attended several Opens, NEVER was the tool profits mentioned. During either the first or second part of the Open.

What do you mean by “The people attending the meeting just had to really listen to what was said.”? They had to read between the lines, or the tool profit was truly transparent?

Thunderdunce #479,

Great post, this proves my hypothesis that you quit learning years ago.

Thunderdunce #480,

The question isn’t whether people are wasting money in other areas, the question is whether your upline is made up of cowards and liars.

DLSChicago #481,

Which one?
john Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 3:14 pm
Monette (488),
Growing mentally dies not equate to blindly trusting some system or system leaders. If a platinum stands up & declares he makes $50,000 net profit per year, what is wrong with asking him to verify that with financial records or tax return? I have honestly tried to ask upline to verify their claims. The answer I get is to “trust” my upline. If what you are doing is blindly trusting everything you are told, that is not growing mentally. That is submitting mentally to whatever your “leaders” want you to believe. What would be wrong with Orrin Woodward or Ron Puryear or Bill Britt or your diamond or emerald publically showing two documents: How much they NET from Quixtar and how much they NET from tools? You can say it is a private matter, but the truth is that they publically brag about Quixtar income (so let them show it) and they publically admit income from tools (so let them show it). I think the tools systems equate growing mentally with growing materiallly. That is why they always are showing off big houses, hummers, rolexes and lavish lifestyles. I do not equate growing mentally with growing materially. Look at most IBOs so called dream wall. It is not filled with hopes of aquiring knowledge, wisdom and understanding. Instead, dream walls have pictures of mansions, mercedes, diamonds and rolexes. This is not mental growth, this is material bondage.
formerly #4321841 Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 3:27 pm
Quixtar, or Amway,I would like to know how to proceed: I resigned my IBO# around the beginning of october. as far as your proprietary corporate secrets that I may have are concerned, I need to know what i should be looking for. Is the LOS info the only thing or is there other information that I should be aware of? Don’t you have a copy, or do i need to email you what I have? and as far as getting rid of it do i just delete my spreadsheets that i made while an IBO, or do i need to delete my phone lists, christmas card lists and clear out my phone memory and request that my cell phone company delete my cal logs for the past 3 years? also for verification are you going to have someone come out so they can search our place and make sure we get everything out that you own, or do you want a third party verification that we have done so? By the way who is responsible for the costs of the verification?
The second thing I would like to know is how am I limited in my communication with my mother in law? the reason i ask is we sponsered her and placed (stacked is the term you now use) below someone else in our team. i just want to know if it’ ok that we let her know we resigned, as long as we don’t tell her to, or are we to cut off all contact with her for the two years stipulated in the rules and regs. if that is the case are we allowed to tell her why we can’t talk to her or would that also be a breach of contract? i know this question is family specific, but i have similar situations with friends and church members who i knew before becoming an IBO, and even some who I met (neighbors etc.) after being an IBO but before contacting them about Quixtar, who I would like to still associate with. please let me know where to draw the line, can they still talk to me, can i respond , can I initiate conversation, what can i say and do so as not to incur legal reprisals. These questions may seem facetious, but there are many including me who I’m sure would like to know how we need to behave wile in the limbo created by our contracts. By the way you might want to add an attorney fee when people sign up to cover the cost of explaining the contract perameters for those like myself who had no idea what was obfuscated therein. I did learn something though: I carefully read the contract of another multilevel my sister in law insisted we look at (primerica) no I didn’d get involved, but you (amway could learn alot from their contract even though it is short. a few key points I’ll list here:
1- either party may for any reason or no reason at all terminate the contract. this would save you having to come up with reasons to terminate someone.
2- the (IBO’s) have to arbitrate disputes(they use a third party arbitrator agreed on by both parties, but you could stick with yours)
3- the company does not need to arbitrate, and may use any legal means available for their disputes.
there are other points that you could use, but i thought these might be the most useful.

Please let me know though on the other questions so i can stay in line until i am truely free. Formerly IBO#4321841 you may contact me personally or later on in this blog.

-Chris Y.
BK Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 3:29 pm
marc #484
Come on. How can you claim with a stright face that Team filed the CA lawsuit to address pricing and bring it out in the open for the good of all IBO’s? They did so for one reason - to escape the terms of their contracts with Quixtar. They took no risk as they had already been terminated from Quixtar. Let’s not make it sound like they were doing anything noble.
Tex Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 3:32 pm
DLSChicago #482,

I think Quixtar can drag them into arbitration, particularly considering the damage they have done.

marc #484,

If you had been paying attention, the corp announced a “transformation” several months ago, and the developments in the UK are also going to put pressure on reducing prices. The name change back to Amway alone would require prices to be reduced. I think Orrin saw this as his last opportunity to do what he has wanted to do for years, split with the corp and do his own thing. Problem is, he waited too long, and it backfired.
Tex Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 3:37 pm
marc #484 (continued),

What were you told about tool profits, exactly?

The CD prices are only one part of the issue, there are many other tool scam sources of profit.

I don’t owe you any thanks for the “illegal pyramid” lawsuit, but I do thank TEAM for further exposing and bringing attention to the tool scam.

So Tex, what have YOU done lately to help contribute to the lowering of AmQuix prices? —- I am attacking the biggest problem first, the tool scam. We’ll see how big of a problem the Quixtar prices are after the REALLY BIG tool scam problem is cleaned up. First things first.
Tex Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 3:41 pm
Monette #488,

This does not make the tool scam legitimate, sorry.
Tex Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 4:14 pm
Thunderdunce #505,

Okay, ignore me at the cost of your own ignorance. My post was much milder than past posts, but if you don’t want to respond, I don’t mind getting in the last word.

john #508,

No, I’m saying that because of the tool scam, it is very difficult to reach these levels. Here’s a question for you: Tell us what you think the percentage should be for a Platinum. No Founders, no Emerald or Diamond, let’s keep it simple. Just Platinum. What’s your estimate?
john Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 4:20 pm
Thunderstruck (510),

I appreciate your dialiogue and willingness to respond to my questions. I do want to ask you to clarify if you will. You joined TEAM in 2001 & joined Quixtar at the same time. You state that you made $40,000 last year. My question is, was that gross or net and did it come from Quixtar? If it was from a bsuiness you have been in since 1992 that is not Quixtar, it doesn’t address the question of the systems and their relationship to Quixtar. In WWDB, you are specifically told “in writing” that you can “expect” to earn $57,000 in one year. I believe this is fraudulent. Thanks.
Tex Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 4:21 pm
Jerad #511,

You assumed the volume loss is per quarter and will stay down. Those are two very poor assumptions. I reread it, it still doesn’t make sense.

John #513,

Bingo.

formerly #4321841 #514,

Either get a clue or call the corp with your stupid questions. Post the answers here.
Conan_78 Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 4:34 pm
Tex #509

IBOAI should have been all over Q about the threatening e-mail they sent to Platmuns and above about the loyalty letter. All the IBOAI members with a back bone resigned. The others sat “Q”uietly “Q”uivering in a corner.

Conan
cmon.people.think Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 5:08 pm
Tex:

So sorry to burst your bubble, but you’re NOT shooting with battleship guns. Your analogy is just another illustration of your overinflated ego. YOU aren’t the “big guns”, Tex.

(By the way, did you really mean 16″ as in INCHES? I never heard of such small battleship guns… you may be confusing your metaphors here.)
Vince Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 5:08 pm
I guess all of the Amway lawyers and PR people are busy dressing up their children rather than dressing up the business.

I have been anxiously awaiting the “Why We Fight, part 2,” but I guess they don’t have any other reasons to fight.

In truth, it isn’t easy fighting when you are NOT fighting for the right reasons.

Perhaps it would help the Amway legal/pr teams to read up on the history or Amway. (Nah, if you understood the history of Amway, you would realize that you have become that which you once hated.)
cmon.people.think Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 5:24 pm
Tex Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 12:18 pm
Thunderdunce #429,

#494 Tex
This is all you got as a response to me? How childish!

“cmon.people.think #433,

freedom, why are you asking cmon.people.think how anything works? He doesn’t know. And he’s a complete loser, never even building a business of any substance. Do you really think he has anything valid to tell you? Your questions should be directed to me.”

Uh, I just typed all this about you. So you retyped it for what reason? Freedom didn’t ask me anything at all, so this is really inapplicable to anything…. are you feeling ok?

Like I said, you must have watched too much Pee Wee Herman Show: “I know you are, but what am I?”
GirlPower Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 5:25 pm
#476 amazed:

The IBOAI is not taking the side of Quixtar. They are taking the side of the IBOs that Orrin is trying to destroy w/his ludicrous claims of Q being a pyramid. They are taking the side of IBOs who wish to follow the rules and continue growing their business.

But the rest of you who want to disparage Q? Who do not listen to reason and instead disparage? You’re right, they’re not on your side. You’ve already proven that you’re against what the IBOAI stands for. So they’re not for you.
Passion4Christ Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 6:44 pm
Are we not free yet? What kind of person would fight to keep 15,000+ free spirited people against their will?

On judgment day you will be able to say, come on God we tried to hold back tens of thousands of people from pursing their dreams and freedoms as long as possible.

Think of all the families out there who are waiting for you to get out of their way. Think of all the prayers you are trying to be in the way of answering.

You care about your rules over 15,000+ people’s freedom!
MichMan Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 8:18 pm
#511 Jared Smith said “Will future growth compansate? I doubt it as their “growth” has been flat in North America for 20 YEARS!”

Jared, if Amway runs off 50 percent of their distributors and teaches the other half to double their volume, their fight with TEAM is a break even event here in the US.

The founding families have probably always been jealous that distributors would pay as much or more each month for ‘tools’ as they would for product.

Now, distributors will be ‘freed’ to spend the $200-$300 per month on product that they used to spend on tools.

And if they can retail some on top of that, the founding families are making even more.

Maybe there is a new J-factor.
rdknyvr Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 9:53 pm
And speaking of developing retail sales, great article at Fast Company this month, linked to from Fortune:
http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/120/magic-shop.html

Key graphs on why Apple stores are so effective at retail… lessons that are transferable to our business model:

“They explained to customers that they had some questions to understand their needs, got permission to fire away, and then kept digging to ascertain which products would be best. Position, permission, probe… ” (Exactly what Quixtar U teaches in the Simply Nutrilite module.)

“…workers don’t seem to be selling (or working) too hard, just hanging out and dispensing information… When employees become sharers of information, instead of sellers of products, customers respond…”

Change “workers” and “employees” to IBOs and you have a winning approach!!! Fits right in with the Paul Zane Pilser reference from someone about distribution of intellectual property!!!
rdknyvr Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 10:03 pm
[moderator, I submitted this post earlier before my above post but it didn’t seem to register. If it did, please delete this]

#511 Jerad,

You’ve put your finger on an interesting problem, whether your extrapolation out to an almost 50% decrease in 2008 holds or not, and whether the rumor you’re trying to spread actually has any merit. (Worst case scenario, still only a 7% decrease in Alticor revenue worldwide, assuming no growth elsewhere.)

The big assumption you’re making is that there have been NO CHANGES with the Transformation initiatives, new products and new training support, and that flat line sales behavior will characterize the future, with the exception of sales decreases of some sort due to your leaving. (And NA sales growth numbers have NOT been flat for 20 years as you allege… if you know the numbers for the 1990’s, you’ll know that’s not true. Ten years — yes, I’ll agree with you, and I’ll agree that hasn’t been good.)

Nothing could be futher from the truth. The Transformation process announced this past spring is just getting started. Quixtar’s product pipeline, with the hiring of Steve Lieberman, is loaded with new, very retail competitive, exciting new products that consumers want, and we are seeing price adjustments in other areas. Strategically, Quixtar is really geting its act together.

Regardless of whether a large group were to leave, as you have, there were things that needed to get cleaned up, most particularly a renewed focus on retail sales as the foundation of every IBO’s business. That is being driven and shaped by new parameters relating eligibility for certain bonus payments to developing a Personal Circle (or first circle) retail customer base.

It’s really not that hard to do, if you have the “hunger” that Orrin so well describes on p. 26-32 of the trade edition of his book. In fact, he calls it ‘Foundational Quality 1.’ And the upward vision curve of his graphic on p. 29 exactly shows the future of Quixtar’s achievements, given the “hunger” those of us with Quixtar have. (If you don’t have some kind of “hunger” you shouldn’t even be in business… not this one and not any other.)

‘Stepping up our game’ for retail sales is also being driven by new support from Quixtar University and Alison Hague’s team, which will improve and grow iteratively as we move forward. The ‘refocus issues’ on Quixtar’s part are being fixed, and the piece of the training and motivation that can best be delivered through the various Systems is also being upgraded to get better IBO business results.

Regardless of where sales come out in the short term, I’m delighted with what I see. If you’re still a Quixtar IBO, you can only be optimistic, based on careful due diligence of the overall business environment and the facts.

If you’ve made the choice to leave, professing pessimism about Quixtar is almost a required activity in order to stave off the cognitive dissonance you are feeling deep down in your subconscious, even while denying it, that perhaps Quixtar did make the necessary changes and is making more of them, and is going to exceed its medium range growth targets, whereas with your promised new venture, you’re operating on a hope and a prayer right now.

Personally, I hope you do get something else started soon… competition would be good for Quixtar, and I’m very confident that they’re up to the challenge.
John Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 11:00 pm
Tex (519),

Platinum is absolutely meaningless. It only means that every now and then you do over 7500 pv. A 7500 platinum can have 3 2500 pins beneath him and basically make about nothing. Or he can have a 4,000 pin and 3 1,000 pins. Or he can have 75 - 100 pins. Platinum is a name but gives absolutely meaning because a platinum can net absolutely zero if his downline is a 5,000 pin and a 2500 pin. And by the way, Quixtar gives the ratio and it is about 1 in 200 qualify for platinum. I know of two emeralds in WWDB who have declared bankruptcy recently. And it was not because of extensive medical bills. It was because of credit card debt and unpaid taxes and a very low income from Quixtar.
freedom Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 11:05 pm
I’m curious, does the team have a special brain programming CD? :0)

Tonight I ran into a couple I’ve known for years, but haven’t seen since I stepped away.

It was almost exactly word-for-word what I heard out of my Platinum and Diamond a month ago. It was amazing.

The only thing that changed is they gave me a few more details about how the team system works (5 and 5, 10 and 10, 12 and 12 gets you in the pool, etc.) and about the St. Louis conference around February 22nd (since they are now all major conferences instead of regional, because by getting everyone together it’s harder to show LOS than with a regional conference).

That and I found out the 20,000 seat Freedom Hall and overflow arena held “over 52,000 at last count.”
Darius Z. Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 11:16 pm
I’m an IBO with Quixtar and I’m dead tired of the company whom I’ve been completely loyal to starts sending me emails instructing me to avoid any outside organizations that might solicit me. Excuse me Quixtar, but, I think I know what I’m doing. I’m not your freakin’ slave and you don’t need to treat me like a red headed step child! I was on your side for many years Quixtar, but, you’re losing my faith with every passing day. I’m embarassed to even show a business plan to anyone anymore because of the way you’ve conducted yourself. It’s bad enough that I’ve stuck up for you for the past 9 years, but, now I’ve practically got to lie to people to get them to even want to be a part of the Quixtar business anymore! The only reason I’m sticking around is because I’ve got 9 years invested in you. Other than that, you make me sick. All the ceo’s at Alticor, wake your lame butt’s up and stop acting like little children. You’re supposed to be setting a good example for us IBO’s, not showing us how childish and greedy you actually are.
rdknyvr Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 11:49 pm
Darius #533, did you forget your meds this morning? Seriously… “freakn’ slave,” “red headed child,” “make me sick,” “lame butts”? They haven’t sent me any emails at all about outside organization… maybe they don’t love me as much as they do you
amazed Says:
October 31st, 2007 at 11:57 pm
DLSChicago #481,

I must have missed that in the hundreds of legal documents I have read lately, lol.

Sorry this reply is so far down, but certain bloggers waste so much space on the page, it is difficult to sort out the legitimate posts.

Girlpower #526,

I have no desire to disparage Quixtar or Amway; I have defended both for many years and sincerely hope that all former and future IBOs are treated fairly. It is simply not right to sneak in major rule changes and not have full disclosure at the time a contract is signed.

I would like nothing more than to hear that Q/A changes their management team and decides to work with the IBOAI to make changes that create a better opportunity for you and actually have some growth over the next several years.

If you are negative toward the TEAM; remember your history…
* Nutrilite did not agree with Rich and Jay, but Alticor ownes Nutrilite today.
* Time Warner probably had some reservations about a new little ISP called AOL, until AOL bought them!
* Japan and America weren’t exactly on great terms at the beginning of the second world war; just look at our global buddies now!

We could very well all be bought out by Mary Kay and drive pink Cadillacs! I’m just kidding, kinda; but the point is, we may all end up on the same team some day; we should keep that in mind.

If you were a professional basketball player; just how much would you slam a different team? What would you do if that team was moved to the place you really want to live and made you a great offer?

We should all be considerate of each other and understand that the future could easily make your current “enemy” into your best “friend”. And yes, I am talking to myself too… I’m not claiming to be perfect here.
Tex Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 2:15 am
John #531,

Platinum is absolutely meaningless. It only means that every now and then you do over 7500 pv. A 7500 platinum can have 3 2500 pins beneath him and basically make about nothing. Or he can have a 4,000 pin and 3 1,000 pins. Or he can have 75 - 100 pins. —- I wasn’t talking about profitability, I was talking about the 1 in 200 you mentioned below.

Platinum is a name but gives absolutely meaning because a platinum can net absolutely zero if his downline is a 5,000 pin and a 2500 pin. And by the way, Quixtar gives the ratio and it is about 1 in 200 qualify for platinum. I know of two emeralds in WWDB who have declared bankruptcy recently. And it was not because of extensive medical bills. It was because of credit card debt and unpaid taxes and a very low income from Quixtar. —- It was because they were no longer qualified Platinums and tried to display a lifestyle they couldn’t afford, even with the tool scam.

Getting back to the 1 in 200, all this means is it takes about 200 IBO’s to create one Platinum. Given many IBO’s are not very active, this means about 75 IBO’s doing an average of 100 PV, or 100 IBO’s doing about 75 PV. You see, even in the “ideal” situation, the 1 in 200 number is not bad news, it merely reflects the fact that it takes many IBO’s to produce a Platinum, which is no surprise to me.

Darius #533,

Grow up, the e-mails were sent out to protect YOUR business. Get a clue.
Thunderstruck Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 8:54 am
John #520
The earnings I reported to you was from the Quixtar business. The other business I told you about was my occupation prior to me joining Quixtar. Which I still do. My income in that was not part of what I reported.

TEAM would never tell you what you can expect to earn related to a time frame, we inform you on earnings based on levels in the business. Do this type of work, and when you hit this level, this is the amount of earnings to expect. Again, I’m no expert in WWBD, but if what you say is correct, I would be suspicious. They seem to say “Just get in and in a year you’ll make great money”, the only other time I heard anything like that is when my neighbor tried to get me to do the gas pill (which I believe is a scam). I feel for your concern, but if the money being reported in WWBD is in writing, I would think Quixtar would have a problem with it. How long have you been in ?
Chris Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 9:50 am
514 formerly #4321841…

You have brought up a good point, I now have a reason not to talk to my mother-in-law for 2 years…just kidding, it seems like a crazy think Q is trying to force
jack Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 11:35 am
532 freedom

Not sure where they got thier numbers. We packed the Freedom hall at over 19,000 and the Broadband facility that holds 6,600. It could be that they are sanguine and a little bit excited for their future. 3 1/2 months

Go TEAM

freedom is awesome
G Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 11:52 am
formerly #4321841 -

Our guest moderator (Tex) says:

“Either get a clue or call the corp with your stupid questions. Post the answers here.”

Let’s see - specific instruction and oversight, … Apparently Tex has now been promoted to your supervisor -

You better comply or he may report your non-compliance as a ROC violation. If you let it happen more than a couple times, you might face (oh, no) Arby-tration (can we get a Jamocha shake with that?)

Sheeeeesh … what a dorky post!

Tex, might you take a couple steps back from k/v/m and actually LOOK at what you post from time to time? Or are you “buyin” your own self-aggrandizement?
IBO To Go Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 12:08 pm
#533 Darius Z.

Well said.
Scipio Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 12:19 pm
Jason #270, Texdunce #310

Good question Jason and worth bringing up again.
It seems to me Tex that your excuse for not building your Quixtar (”waiting for the tool scams to be over”) is lame at best. Real leaders, real business men do what they believe is right in spite of circumstances. Sounds like you’ve never been in the trenches and done the work. So it sounds to me like you may have achieved at most the coveted opal pin.
Yor not even qualified to coment on Quixtar, Amway, or tool s businesses. So get off your butt and and get to work defending what you say you believe in. Without a “tools scam”. Criticism Tex is the death gargle of a non achiever. I am very fortunate to have gone Founders Emerald. So I tell you what Tex’ do yourself a favor go build your business and achieve something.
You’ve said you don’t want to put time and effort into something you don’t think will last. So what is it Tex. Are you defending something that you don’t believe in? Until you do something with your Quixtar/Amway business you are NOT QUALIFIED to have the respect of anyone else on this or any other forum. Go earn some respect Tex I double dog dare you. IF YOU HAVE THE GUTS!
GirlPower Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 1:23 pm
I for one am glad that Q took the route that they have. I’d have less respect for them if they sat back and allowed Orrin and his cronies to walk all over them.
Jerad Smith Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 1:27 pm
Tex#521,

How can it not make sense to you? The point is this: If you believe that TEAM’s tool bonus compensation plan is a scam then how can you participate in Q’s bonus plan? I ask this because they are very nearly the same compensation plan.

rdknyvr#530,

Thank you. Thank you for answering me like we are both adults. You are usually one of the more mature bloggers.

After doing some looking around I see that the 125 million dollar figure is an estimate of the losses for the current fiscal year. That year just started.

As far as my comment about Amway’s stagnant North American growth, it does stretch back 20 years. The 80’s were a long time ago. To compare business size from the 80’s to 2007 you need to adjust for inflation. Once that adjustment is made you will see that Amway has had zero growth for the last 20 years.

Combine that flat growth with the fact that they have lost the Diamonds responsible for putting people in as fast as they are leaving the other Diamond organisations and you are going to have further losses.

Amway’s new product line doesn’t seem cheaper to me. Though I haven’t studied the line, what I’ve seen is “simply” smaller sizes and a penny or two decrease in per ounce cost. That is not near the 15% to 200% over-pricing problem you guys face on a monthly bases.

Now Amway will get to produce (and keep ALL the profit from) their own tools. They don’t know how to build this business like a diamond does.

Amway also no longer has to pretent that the IBOIA board is relavant and able to protect IBO’s from bad corporate decitions. It’s not. None of us were protected from this transformation like we were from the ‘99 transformation. The board helped to keep the company from forcing decitions on IBO’s and hurting them if they wanted out.

Why is this time different? Ask yourself.
Bridgett Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 2:20 pm
#533 Darius Z.

What’s wrong with red-headed step children?

If the emails don’t apply to you, then delete them. Not everyone receiving those mass emails are as mature, grown-up, and evolved as you.
scipio Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 4:45 pm
moderater I posted a comment 3 hours ago challanging Tex to build his Quixtar business. why wasn’t it posted
e Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 6:08 pm
There’s a little book by Seth Godin called, “The Dip”. Anyone who cares about the future of any business (Amway, Quixtar, TEAM, etc.) would do well to read it. Find out if your current path is a “DIP” that’s worth fighting through to get the reward or a “cul-de-sac” that’s telling you to quit right now and cut your losses. Quitting something is not bad if it gives you what you need to redirect your time, money and energy onto the right path of success for you.

So, are TEAM members right to quit Q? Are Q IBO’s right to stick with it? Is all this lawsuit stuff, coming from BOTH sides, worth what it costs (just don’t factor in the input from any attorneys on this one)? I don’t know; read the book for yourself and figure it out.
Vince Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 6:25 pm
rdknyvr

I appreciate your level-headed discourse. I don’t agree with everything that you mentioned in your last post, but you present your arguments without rancor, and without hyperbole.

YOU should be running Quixtar, or at least their PR and legal departments.

I worry that some TEAM members are getting frustrated with some of the remaining IBO’s over various disparaging comments about TEAM.

As for me, I understand why other IBO’s would be upset with TEAM. This conflict is bad for your business, and Quixtar’s puerile reactions have been like gas on a fire that is destroying your home.

I hope you understand TEAM’s position. For years, our leaders have been talking about driving costs down as volume increases. For years, our leaders have been talking about taking on Wal-Mart. For years, our leaders have been talking about making it a NO-Brainer to join because the prices would SAVE you money.

Our leaders realized that retail sales needed to improve or else the business would be an illegal pyramid. Some TEAM leaders were worried about their liability if the business was declared an illegal pyramid.

For these reasons, behind closed doors, TEAM leaders have been struggling with Quixtar to provide lower priced, more competitive goods. (You can read the Orrin Woodward letters for yourself. They prove what I am saying.)

Since Quixtar didn’t want to lower prices, since Quixtar wanted to become Amway again (which IS the first question most prospects ask), TEAM leaders decided that they had to leave. If they stayed they would be breaking their beliefs and their promises.

The bottom line is that the two companies were going in different directions, and they needed to break free of one another. This did NOT have to be a bad thing.

Will there be competition between the two companies in the future? I am certain that there will be…but competition is FREE ENTERPRISE…competition is GOOD for the consumer…it is the American way…even if it isn’t the Amway way anymore.
ibofightback Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 6:40 pm
john #404, re numbers of IBOs not having changed in 30 years, please review Amway/Quixtar MYTH: No growth in IBOs in 30 years

The number of IBOs roughly doubled between 1976 and 2003. Also sources and calculations are in the link.

It’s unfortunate that even IBOs believe and spread the BS on the internet.
Steve Yeager Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 7:15 pm
Amway, you’ve been outclassed.

http://freetheiboblog.typepad.com/quixtar/2007/11/team-issues-sta.html

The tone of the Team attorney’s statement is so much more professional than the garbage that’s been spewed from this blog. It was very refreshing to read. Amway, you wonder why people are quitting (more than usual)? They’re starting to see your true colors. You are not acting in the best interest of your IBOs by continuing along this path of self-destruction.
Dave Mc Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 8:23 pm
Darius,
I know where you are coming from. I’ve noticed alot more resistence to Quixtar as of late from my prospects. They are dead set against the Amway name. I don’t blame them. I’m pretty much at the end of my rope with this MLM bit. I’ve been with it hard for 3 1/2 years and I feel like my freedom has been violated by people who were supposed to be looking out for me. I too have gotten several letters warning me of outside solicitation. It’s like they don’t trust us! It’s getting old.
ibofightback Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 8:37 pm
Re the comments on “non-system” Crowns, first of all, they did have a system of sorts. When did Rich & Jay get excited about Nutrilite and began building the business? After they travelled a fair way to go to a major seminar. Later Rich & Jay developed a system of mailouts to help with training, and later still 8-tracks and tapes, and of course, their own seminars.

Later systems just got more and more sophisticated (in many cases, overly so, in my opinion).

Regarding the Crowns though - how many “non-system” Crowns have gone on to be recognized at any of the later “Founders” levels, even Founders Diamond? This should give you an idea of their “stability” and strength of their businesses. Compare this to “system” Crowns like the Yagers/Britts/Dornans/Puryears/Schwarzs/Müller-Meerkatz/Salas/Scheipflers etc etc.

If you look at the US, as far as I can tell since 1980, every single IBO that has qualifed as a Crown Ambassador has gone on to qualify as a Founders Crown Ambassador
MichMan Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 10:28 pm
ibofightback said: “since 1980, every single IBO that has qualifed as a Crown Ambassador has gone on to qualify as a Founders Crown Ambassador”

Hmmm. ibofb, have you ever heard of Crown Ambassador Kenny Stewart? I’m not sure if he went Founders Crown or not.

But I do know that he was kicked out of Amway for suing his upline Hal Gooch who was screwing him out of tool money.

Amway took the side of the ‘kingpins’ and left Stewart to fend for himself.

When Stewart sued to get the tool money he deserved, Amway aggressively sided with the ‘kingpins’ Gooch/Childers/Foley and terminated him.

This case has yet to be heard in open court. And IMO, this is the one that could put the stake in the heart of Amway’s ‘tool scam’ (as Tex calls it).

more here: http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/archives/2006/05/supreme_court_ruling_explained.php
John Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 10:42 pm
IBO Fightback (549),

I have read your entire misleading numbers on growth over the last 30 years. It is filled with flaws. One example is this: You state that in 1976 sales were (I am going to round off numbers) $169 million. Then you state that in 2003 (27) years later sales were $1.1 billion. Then you make a big issue of how the same number of IBOs can do 700% more in sales and you act as if they must be so much more efficient and productive.
What you fail to show is that Quixtar product costs have risen just about every year. I suggest about 7% to 8% per year. So take a price of a bottle of Nutrilite in 1976 and compare it to the cost of a bottle of Nutrilite in 2003, and guess what you get? About a 700% increase in price. Same poor efficiency; just higher prices.
GirlPower Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 10:56 pm
#550 Steve Yeager:

Sorry, bub, but there’s nothing classy about filing a bogus illegal pyramid suit.
John Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 10:56 pm
Thunderstruck (537),

Thanks for your answer. I am glad to hear that TEAM doesn’t use terms like “expect” to earn. In the WWDB Private Franchising Review, it tells the potential IBO that he can “expect” to earn $57,000 in his first year. I an not surprised that Quixtar allows this because nothing from Quixtar surprises me. You can google it online & see for yourself. Thanks.
GirlPower Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 11:08 pm
#554 John:

Take the price of just about anything from 1976 and compare it to now. That’s a weak argument. 30+ years later EVERYTHING is more. From cars to coffee. Are you Amish?
Seriously? Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 11:33 pm
#557 GirlPower…

Are you serious with that comment? You’re not the brightest crayon in the box are you?
marc Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 11:35 pm
Tex #516/517

“I think Orrin saw this as his last opportunity to do what he has wanted to do for years, split with the corp and do his own thing. Problem is, he waited too long, and it backfired.”

What backfired exactly?

“The CD prices are only one part of the issue, there are many other tool scam sources of profit.”

Okay, there are also books, most of which are from outside authors and we pay retail price for those. If they sell a TEAM produced book, it is RARELY over $15 which is well within range of other self-help books. Seminar tickets are $25. In my profession, it typically costs over $150 for a day’s seminar which only teaches about physical therapy. And if the physical therapy seminar is a whole weekend, it’s well over $500 and again, only teaches about PT. Weekend seminars for TEAM are only $90 and teach about ALL aspects of your life. My personal life has dramatically been improved on many levels through the TEAM system, not to mention the profit sharing program that becomes implemented at a very low level so that the tools pay for themselves in your first month. So I wouldn’t include ALL tools systems as scams, although I’m sure there are many out there.

“I don’t owe you any thanks for the “illegal pyramid” lawsuit, but I do thank TEAM for further exposing and bringing attention to the tool scam.”

So for the tool scams that ARE in fact out there, what have you been doing to help solve this problem BEFORE the lawsuit began?

“I am attacking the biggest problem first, the tool scam. We’ll see how big of a problem the Quixtar prices are after the REALLY BIG tool scam problem is cleaned up. First things first.”

The way I see it, Quixtar’s overpriced products are the real issue that needs to be dealt with because there is nobody else to blame but Quixtar. And QUIXTAR IS THE BUSINESS ITSELF! I mean let’s face it. Who in their right mind would pay upwards of 200% more for product if they were NOT an ABO? The business opportunity itself should be good, but for the opportunity to be good, the product prices should be good as well. Can you argue with me on that? This is what TEAM was fighting for.
freedom Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 11:39 pm
Jack #539

That’s what I was saying. It’s like every time I run into someone I knew from the team the numbers get bigger. At this pace, come February, Louisville will have been a 200,000 person event.

Of course, you can’t make the numbers too big, because the team will be almost the exact same size in St. Louis as it was in Louisville. It has to be. Because Orrin and the team have too much character, morals, and integrity to KNOW there is the 6-month rule and continue to solicit people for a business during that 6-month period right?

Which brings up another interesting point. If Louisville was roughly 25,000, and the team grows and is much bigger in St. Louis, how does the team fight a potential Quixtar lawsuit alleging the team was building a business during that 6-month period? Especially since the team has to be keeping records so they don’t get in trouble with the FTC, courts or anyone else.
Bridgett Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 11:39 pm
#554 John

Did you read the entire page that ibofightback linked you to?

http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/content/view/1367/69/lang,en/

I did. And IFB *does* adjust for inflation:

Even adjusting for inflation, and converting to year 2003 dollars, sales in 1976 would only be equivalent to approx $425,061,704.

From 1976 to 2003 there has been a more than doubling in sales volume, or inflation adjusted, growth of 143%.

1976 Amway Sales - $425,061,704 (inflation adjusted)
2003 Quixtar Sales - $1,035,000,000
steven utah soon to be former ibo Says:
November 1st, 2007 at 11:40 pm
all should read but somewhat responding to the responce of …

piet strydom post#440

if what you say is correct about all your crowns then why be afraid of stating what line of affiliation you are with and then further more also if what you say is true then how many of your crowns are still part of you system/or still in the usa (not many i bet)

the team is not promoting just a TOOL business….they fixed what was wrong with the tool aspect of the business and made it fair for all. just like quixtar is not in the product business they are….

1st of all in the people business(to which thier buricrats have forgotten)

2nd they are in the “self consumption business”(quote come form the iside of quxtar doug devos)

3rd just as the corporation doesnt come out and teach people how to move the product why?….might i add the corporation moves all the product(unless in the world wide organization)(or your trying to go back to amway pre-computer)

4th thanks for wanting to educate me but i dont need to know how to open a pop can or spead toothpaste on my toothbrush and i sure am not going to go to a product expo to learn….however if you can show me that by using your products verses someone elses that i can HAVE THE OPPERTUNITY….if i choose to LISTEN to some else who HAS THE FRUIT ON THE TREE then i can do what they did and have what they have(or what it is that i see with the same level of income)

by the way who cares how many crowns are in your los… i bet you’d come to the realization that (of those crowns that are still actively building) they dont build with showing the product then the plan, they show the plan then the product and promote a system for help(nothing wrong with that by the way). team just figured out how to keep people together and to make everyone teaching the same thing 100% of the time(duplication). which created the fastest growth in n.america period…..FACT.

of your crowns how many have explosive growth by that i am not meaning replacement but multiplication in n.america….0…… team effected more peoples lives in a shorter amount of time than any other group of diamonds/crowns in corporation history…FACT.

Dick devos lost the race to be governor main attack on him was the bad name of the amway corporation and the bad taste the public had with the reps of AMWAY!…FACT.

The corporation/families behind closed doors w/o the iboai decided to change the name back to amway with the hope to UNtarnish the company image and name…FACT.(if you remember amway tried this in the superbowl with ads in the late 90’s….FACT.)

team decided not to follow the direction of the corporation and gave a proposal to go separate ways peacefully….FACT(i will post the proposal below this post). just like every ibo was give the choice in 99 to choose to stay with amway or go to quixtar a whole new business oppertunity with amway as a partner store of quixtar…FACT.

Alticor formed, access business group formed, amway stayed the same and quixtar formed…FACT.

Access business group under new sister contract with quxtar started selling products to other entities such as stores and manf. stuff requested by other companies thusgiving them the idea of doing business WITHOUT the ibos…FACT

case and point get rid of the ibos and keep the profits all to themselves. because team was growing sooo fast and had figured out how to maximize the compensation plan and keep it going long term not just for a little bit like alot of former diamonds/crowns so call an emergency meeting right before year end bonuses were to be paid and then not pay them..fact.

pick your side carfully on this battle cause the victor will only be shown with time

thanks for reading this post, it is the sole written oppnion of me and is not paid for or written for anyone else with the intention of harm but, for education
Lucy Steadman Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:05 am
#555 GirlPower,

Two points: first, Team didn’t file the lawsuit. Second, the lawsuit wasn’t bogus. Quixtar has yet to refute the 3.4% customer sales figure. In fact, they have yet to refute ANY paragraph in that lawsuit because it’s all true. The lawsuit was dismissed because of the injunction in Grand Rapids. Quixtar is an illegal pyramid, and time will prove that right. The leaders at Quixtar are moving frantically to get into compliance. Maybe they can beat the clock. Maybe not.
Chuck Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:25 am
#552 - IBOFightback - As I am sure you are well aware, with the exception of the Janzes, the majority of the Crowns I mentioned have been retired for years, and several are deceased. As for them having some kind of system, I have personal first hand information regarding their “system” as you called it. Their “system” was very limited, came along in the very late 70s, and was not treated as a profit center, unlike today, where the system is a primary profit center in most LOS. BTW, the Krauses, Rosses, Janzes, and Markses were all part of the same line of sponsorship. I personally attended the weekend in Jan. ‘73 in Palm Springs where the Janzes spoke as new Crowns and all four Crowns were in attendance.
toomuchtex Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:36 am
Found this ‘over there’

Tex #155

My son used to repeat back to me what I’d just said changing a few words to twist the meaning. He did that when he was 6. Since then he’s grown up a bit. Shame I can’t say the same about you. You’ve shown yourself to be incapable of reasoned argument and keep You keep droning on and on about tools scams. This shows that you still haven’t got a clue why IBS were unplugged. You say it was a tools scam. To ask your favourite question, Explain this? How do you know? What evidence do you have?

If you want to know the truth behind what happened check out

http://www.jerryandmandy.co.uk

Now you can look at that and say “Well so what?” and I would ask you the same thing. I don’t care for your opinion because it is not about the real issue.

You keep bleating on about tools scams. If Amway’s objective were to close down all the tools operations, they would have dealt with people in a very different way. They would also have closed down all the tools businesses, which they haven’t. So Tex, you’re argument doesn’t hold water. By leaving some tools businesses alone, they have declared that it is not the tools businesses that are the problem. By terminating Diamonds with no warning and no explanation shows that there is no explanation to be given. It’s like when you lose an argument and resort to just repeating back what someone else just wrote and change a few words to twist the meaning. It’s childish and immature and not worthy of a blog about grown up issues like why won’t Amway respond to requests to explain why they have terminated some of their most loyal IBOs?

You also avoid the issue about the DTI court case. Have you got the message yet that the DTI didn’t close down IBS, Amway did? Do you understand that the DTI aren’t concerned about the tools businesses, they see them as legitimate businesses? Are you quite clear that the only business under investigation in the DTI case is Amway and that is for price and profitability related matters?

Facts. Facts. Facts.

I almost feel guilty about diverting your attention away from the fantasy world that you live in where everyong who dissagrees with your view of the world is either a “tools scammer” or a “cowardly, lying kingpin”. However, in the real world that is not the case and good people have been dumped because it is expeditious for the company to do so.

The stupid thing is that those of you that remain in this business think that the same thing won’t happen again. If it happened once to good and loyal people, it can happen to anyone. Even you!!
AEM Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:45 am
Bridgett,
Ever get the answers to the questions you asked me on the “Guerrillas in the mist” thread? I await to hear the answers to the questions I asked you.
Tex Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:55 am
amazed #535,

…certain bloggers waste so much space on the page, it is difficult to sort out the legitimate posts. —- Then stop posting so much.

I have no desire to disparage Quixtar or Amway; I have defended both for many years and sincerely hope that all former and future IBOs are treated fairly. —- If you really believe that and are not just blowing smoke, you would have condemned the Orrin and Co. “illegal pyramid” lawsuit.

It is simply not right to sneak in major rule changes and not have full disclosure at the time a contract is signed. —- It is simply not right to give the upline a free pass on not training their downline on the rules.

I would like nothing more than to hear that Q/A changes their management team and decides to work with the IBOAI to make changes that create a better opportunity for you and actually have some growth over the next several years. —- Get off those drugs, they are ruining your thinking processes.

If you are negative toward the TEAM; remember your history…
* Nutrilite did not agree with Rich and Jay, but Alticor ownes Nutrilite today.
* Time Warner probably had some reservations about a new little ISP called AOL, until AOL bought them!
* Japan and America weren’t exactly on great terms at the beginning of the second world war; just look at our global buddies now! —- Your examples and analogies are flawed. Orrin and Co. are made up of lying cowards who filed an “illegal pyramid” lawsuit and broke their IBOAI confidentiality contracts.

We could very well all be bought out by Mary Kay and drive pink Cadillacs! I’m just kidding, kinda; but the point is, we may all end up on the same team some day; we should keep that in mind. —- I told you to get off those drugs….

If you were a professional basketball player; just how much would you slam a different team? What would you do if that team was moved to the place you really want to live and made you a great offer? —- You should ask Orrin that question, why did he file the “illegal pyramid” lawsuit?

We should all be considerate of each other and understand that the future could easily make your current “enemy” into your best “friend”. And yes, I am talking to myself too… I’m not claiming to be perfect here. —- That makes my stomach turn just thinking about it. I’ll consider that after the “reparations” are taken care of by Orrin and Co.
Tex Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 1:08 am
Chris #538,

Are you serious?

G #540,

I’m not “buyin” anything, but you’ve “sold” me on the fact that you’re stupid. You have sold me on that idea at any price, even the so-called “overpriced” Q prices, because you are high “quality” powerfully stupid.
John Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 1:08 am
Tex (536),

So you say a good situation is a Platinum IBO with 75 in his downline doing 100 pv each. You make my point exactly. In your scenario only 1 out of 76 IBOs make any money. And surely the other 100 pv 3% IBOS are losing money after they buy their tools. Now if any of those 75 who are losing money want to be platinum, they have to find 75 more people who lose money. Thus a pathetic pyramid where less that 2% of the IBOs make money. Tex, the Quixtar model is a pyramid that has overpriced products that are not retailed (except a wopping 3.4%) and creates a few people who make money and hundreds of thousands that lose. That my friend, as you show in your post is a classic pyramid. And you actually think it is not bad.
John Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 1:15 am
Girlpower (557),

Ofcourse if you take anything and compare price from 1976 to now the price has gone up. Such is the case with Quixtar products just like any other products. If you sell one car in 1976 for $10,000 and the same basic car in 2003 for $30,000. Your sales have increased by %20,000 but you haven’t really grown. You still have only sold one car. Thus is the story of Amway/Quixtar. They show increased sales but compare their prices with 1976 and you will find they are growing in IBO numbers or sales. They are just selling about the same amount of products with the same number of IBOs. They are just charging higher prices. Remember 1976 court cases tell us up to about 370,000 IBOs in N America. Here we are in 2007 and Quixtar reports “370,000″ IBOs in N America. That = No growth!
Tex Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 1:25 am
Scipio #542,

When I want to take advice from a lying cowardly tool scammer, you’ll be the first to be notified, promise. What is your current qualification, and how much Quixtar versus tool scam money do you make?

GirlPower #543,

I’ll second that motion.

Jerad #544,

I’ve never seen a Quixtar contract that required those who profit from the Quixtar business are not allowed to tell others about the profit levels at various pin levels. The two are not even close to being similar.

scipio #546,

Because the moderators have real jobs and it sometimes takes a while to review your lame posts.
John Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 1:27 am
Bridgett (561),

I did read it. Just because IBO Fightback says from 1976 to 2003 there was a doubling in sales volume doesn’t make it true. This is how he distorts the numbers. Quixtar/Amway does not even report sales volume. They never tell the public how many bottles of Double X or how many boxes of SA8 they sell. They only report sales revenue. IBO Fightback cannot declare a doubling in sales volume because Quixtar doesn’t report it. So a doubling in sales revenue (when looking at the years in question) basically means a doubling of prices. Do you honestly believe that you are not paying twice as much for Quixtar products as you would have pain in 1976. You might want to pull out your latest catalog and compare it to a 1976 catalog.
Tex Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 1:55 am
e #547,

Are you sure you’re not the dip? I don’t know; look in the mirror for yourself and figure it out.

Vince #548,

YOU should be running Quixtar, or at least their PR and legal departments. —- You wish he was running those departments, because life would be much easier for you and the rest of the Orrinites.

I worry that some TEAM members are getting frustrated with some of the remaining IBO’s over various disparaging comments about TEAM. —- TEAM members should be frustrated with their lying cowardly upline.

As for me, I understand why other IBO’s would be upset with TEAM. This conflict is bad for your business, and Quixtar’s puerile reactions have been like gas on a fire that is destroying your home. —- It will be great for our business over the longer term, just stay tuned.

I hope you understand TEAM’s position. For years, our leaders have been talking about driving costs down as volume increases. For years, our leaders have been talking about taking on Wal-Mart. For years, our leaders have been talking about making it a NO-Brainer to join because the prices would SAVE you money. —- TEAM’s position is trying to deflect the issue from the major issue of the tool scam to the minor issue of products prices. It didn’t work, give it up.

Our leaders realized that retail sales needed to improve or else the business would be an illegal pyramid. Some TEAM leaders were worried about their liability if the business was declared an illegal pyramid. —- Your “leaders” are liars and cowards. They know if this was an actual problem, Quixtar would be liable, not them, because they don’t set the prices. They are trying to appear as heroes, but they are merely tool scammers.

For these reasons, behind closed doors, TEAM leaders have been struggling with Quixtar to provide lower priced, more competitive goods. (You can read the Orrin Woodward letters for yourself. They prove what I am saying.) —- TEAM “leaders” have been struggling with various rule violations for over 6 years.

Since Quixtar didn’t want to lower prices, since Quixtar wanted to become Amway again (which IS the first question most prospects ask), TEAM leaders decided that they had to leave. If they stayed they would be breaking their beliefs and their promises. —- Prices are already coming down, more to come, Orrin and Co. had to make a move before it was too late and they couldn’t take many of their IBO’s with them.

The bottom line is that the two companies were going in different directions, and they needed to break free of one another. This did NOT have to be a bad thing. —- The bottom line is the two companies were going in different directions, one was made of lying cowards, and the other had announced a transformation that will shut down the tool scam.

Will there be competition between the two companies in the future? I am certain that there will be…but competition is FREE ENTERPRISE…competition is GOOD for the consumer…it is the American way…even if it isn’t the Amway way anymore. —- Hit the road, dirtbag.
Tex Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 2:05 am
ibofb #549,

You like to go back 30 years because there MAY have been growth since then, but you love to dodge/ignore the fact the North American market has been flat for over a decade. This is NOT good news.

Steve #550,

You call the “illegal pyramid” lawsuit professional and refreshing? I don’t.

Dave #551,

Maybe you’re not man enough to be an “Amway guy”. Why don’t you just admit you’re a sissy and quit?
Tex Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 2:20 am
MichMan #553,

I am looking forward to the Stewart case moving forward, and haven’t heard much about it. However, I think you are overestimating A/Q’s involvement in that lawsuit, although his termination is VERY suspect.

marc #559,

What backfired exactly? —- Orrin and Co. have landed in arbitration and in court, and will be bled dry of money and probably have the normal 6 month/2 year time periods extended.

Okay, there are also books, most of which are from outside authors and we pay retail price for those. If they sell a TEAM produced book, it is RARELY over $15 which is well within range of other self-help books. —- The outside books are purchased for half the retail price or less, then marked up. The TEAM produced books are marked up even more, because they don’t have to pay the author, publisher, etc., it all goes to Orrin and Chris (except for the latest one going to charity, which is a PR stunt).

…the profit sharing program that becomes implemented at a very low level so that the tools pay for themselves in your first month. So I wouldn’t include ALL tools systems as scams, although I’m sure there are many out there. —- The question isn’t how much the seminars cost, the question is how much profit is realized compared to the Quixtar profit, and how they position their “success”. How do the tools pay for themselves in the first month?

So for the tool scams that ARE in fact out there, what have you been doing to help solve this problem BEFORE the lawsuit began? —- I have been active on various blogs for over 2 years, reported the problems to the FTC and reported the TEAM rules violations at Opens and a Seminar to Quixtar, by telephone, e-mail, registered letters, and face to face discussions with Quixtar lawyers (the last one started after the lawsuits were started).

The way I see it, Quixtar’s overpriced products are the real issue that needs to be dealt with because there is nobody else to blame but Quixtar. —- I blame the IBOAI Board for being more interested in their tool scams than product prices.

And QUIXTAR IS THE BUSINESS ITSELF! I mean let’s face it. Who in their right mind would pay upwards of 200% more for product if they were NOT an ABO? The business opportunity itself should be good, but for the opportunity to be good, the product prices should be good as well. Can you argue with me on that? This is what TEAM was fighting for. —- Quixtar is not the real business for the upline, it is a minor side business compared to their tool scams. A/Q never promoted 100% product loyalty, the upline does. I tell IBO’s not to buy products that are too expensive, and Quixtar will be foreced to drop the product or the price. TEAM was trying to create a tool scam diversion by complaining about product pricing.
Tex Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 2:25 am
freedom #560,

That assumes St. Louis will occur at all.

Steven #562,

Your “facts” are garbage.
ben Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 3:20 am
steven utah 562

well said brother well said!

No struggle, No victory!!!
Sad & Confused Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 10:25 am
I want to talk about my issues with the system. The problem with the “system” is that it doesn’t work. I know because I’ve tried.

I have few hundred CD’s, DVD’s, a bookshelf full of “leadership” books and a trunk full of materials for prospects. I’ve read/viewed every second, every page of it. I wanted to sit at the feet of and learn from the “great leaders” in our business. I was a master student. I did everything the CD’s told me. I went to every open, seminar, and conference. I focused soley on my building my business. I tuned out all other sources of “negative” input. I STP’d at least 5 times a week. I sponsered many, and achieved a very high pin level.

However, the business flattened and began to drop off. I listened more, I read more, I counseled upline more. I continued to STP, however things weren’t working like all my upline and the BSM’s said they would. Eventually, I committed the mortal sin of the business, I questioned the wisdom of my upline. I suggested that maybe the current system wasn’t as effective as they said it was, and maybe some changes should be made. I was immediately chastised and the old “well your business isn’t as big as mine” line was used and I shut up. I eventually stoped buying tools, and mysteriously when that happened, my uplne support dried up. The people who loved and cared for me so much were no longer anywhere to be seen. They didn’t take my calls, and didn’t acknowledge my existence.

See, the problem with the system isn’t that its profitable. The problem is that the system doesn’t achieve the results it says it will. It can’t. It’s based on a faulty premise. The same premise that makes pyramid schemes illegal. The “only” way the system works is if you add new people to the bottom of the “business”. You must have a constant in flow of new people to grow and achieve success. That constant flow of new people is UNSUSTAINABLE.
Tex Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 11:44 am
Lucy Steadman #563,

You’re right, the FOUNDERS of TEAM and recent lying cowardly “kingpin” additions to TEAM filed the lawsuit. That’s like saying the fall from a skyscraper didn’t kill the person, it was the sudden stop.

If the lawsuit wasn’t bogus, why did the judge handle the lawsuit as DISMISSED WITH PREJUDICE? TEAM has yet to refute they do 1.4% in retail. Quixtar doesn’t have to refute the lawsuit in public, they chose to do that in the courtroom, and now arbitration. Quixtar isn’t an illegal pyramid, and time will prove that right. The leaders at the other LOS’s are moving frantically to get into compliance. Maybe they can beat the clock. Maybe not.
Tex Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 11:55 am
Chuck #564,

Good post. First hand experience beats ibofb’s biased theoretical world any day.

toomuchtex #565,

And I responded “over there.”

John #569,

I never said those were all personally sponsored.

Retail isn’t taught, that’s why the level is 3.4%, and was 1.4% for TEAM.

ben #577,

I don’t think “struggle” is supposed to include massive rule breaking, but it is a “struggle” to build the business with the tool scam in place, and even more of a struggle when the scam becomes better known.
Tex Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 11:57 am
Sad & Confused #578,

The tool scam explains your post perfectly.
john Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:04 pm
Tex (580),
It doesn’t change the fact that you still have 75 people losing money for 1 person to make money. I reiterate, Quixtar is a pyramid of internal consumption where over 98% of the people lose money. Thgis is what it always has been and is now. Now you will see Quixtar push retail, retail, retail. This is because they know regulators are looking at them.
AEM Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:19 pm
Sad and confused
The overpriced Q/A products explain your post perfectly. Not the tool scam. You said the problem with the tool scam isn’t that it is profitable, but that you have to add more people to make money. There’s sopposed to be two ways to make money with Quixtar, retail and building your downline. Take the retail option away from inflating prices and what do you have left?
Jeffrey Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:37 pm
Sad and Confused #578: You are absolutely right. The exact thing happened to me. Everyone in my upline now totally ignores me. I even had to turn in my Diamond to the rules department for non-payment of roll-up bonuses that I was entitled to, because I knew if I wrote, called, or e-mailed him, he would just ignore me. Then he sends me this letter that said, “I just can’t understand why you reported me for a rules violation. I would have acted immediately upon your request.” Right. He’s two months behind on my bonus roll-up now, even after a phone call over a week ago. But I have downline that do nearly zero PV, but they show up for functions and he treats them like his long lost buddies. It is nauseating.
I think the system actually used to work: in the 70’s and 80’s. No more. People both inside and outside of the business have gotten wise to it.
How much training does it take to get some appointments to show some core line products to some people and get some customers? Then just do that over and over until you get comfortable with it. Then begin to prospect people for the business. It does not take 5 major functions a year, a CD of the week, 4 Opens a month, and a book-of-the-month to become successful in this business.
The company still has one major kingpin to get rid of–the one that started this whole tool scam. I won’t say who it is, but everybody knows. When they get rid of him, maybe then this business can begin to repair its reputation.
AEM Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:49 pm
If the lawsuit wasn’t bogus, why did the judge handle the lawsuit as DISMISSED WITH PREJUDICE? [The CA judge agreed with the judge in MI who ruled they had to arbitrate. The question of Quixtar legality has yet to be addressed in court. Did you read the conclusion in the CA case?]

TEAM has yet to refute they do 1.4% in retail. [Why would they? It’s part of the point. Many organizations have low retail volume because the prices are to high to retail. Do you pay attention?]

Quixtar doesn’t have to refute the lawsuit in public, they chose to do that in the courtroom, and now arbitration. [No they don’t, but for the sake of all the IBO’s that were not in Team they should. It’s not fair to non-team IBO’s to not address the lawsuit in public.]

Quixtar isn’t an illegal pyramid, and time will prove that right. [Then why a sudden shift toward retail training? Do you think it’s really a coincidence?]
Tex Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:52 pm
john #582,

Sure it does. Apply a 6-4-2 or similar structure with width and depth, and several of the IBO’s will be making money, assuming the tool scam isn’t sucking up all the profit to result in a net loss. Do the math.

AEM #583,

Take the retail option away and what do you have left? —- TEAM and most of the other tool systems.
Bridgett Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 12:59 pm
#566 AEM

No I didn’t. I don’t really go back to older threads here at the Alticor blog.

Takes up too much of my time.

Probably shouldn’t be here right now!
BK Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 1:02 pm
Lucy Steadman #563
Two points: first, Team didn’t file the lawsuit. Second, the lawsuit wasn’t bogus. Quixtar has yet to refute the 3.4% customer sales figure. In fact, they have yet to refute ANY paragraph in that lawsuit because it’s all true. The lawsuit was dismissed because of the injunction in Grand Rapids. Quixtar is an illegal pyramid, and time will prove that right. The leaders at Quixtar are moving frantically to get into compliance. Maybe they can beat the clock. Maybe not.

Response: Pick a side and stay with it. Either they filed the lawsuit of they didn’t. Of course, reading the lawsuit that they did not file, according to you, would answer that now, wouldn’t it?
Bridgett Says:
November 2nd, 2007 at 1:17 pm
#572 & #58

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Why we fight, part 1

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