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Alticor Media Blog is the official news weblog from the Alticor family of companies.
October 24th, 2007 @ 8:45 pm ET…
Why we fight, part 1
You can post a comment or trackback from your own site.
After being on the defensive for 20 straight legal attacks, we filed suit yesterday against the corporation that owns TEAM.
We filed suit because the single legal case we brought (and won) in this matter listed Orrin Woodward as a defendant—but Woodward then claimed to have magically disappeared as the manager of TEAM before the case was heard. (A legal trick like that is like pretending Rich and Jay have nothing to do with our company—but never mind. We’ll straighten it out.)
We filed suit because TEAM has had multiple chances to play by the rules in this dispute, but have gambled that they do not have to play by them. They have interfered with non-compete agreements. They have interfered with non-solicitation agreements. They refuse to arbitrate.
But most of all, we are filing suit because TEAM has taken proprietary business information from Quixtar that IBOs could be using right now to build Quixtar businesses.
If you leave your place of work today, you would leave behind your tools and information so that those who remain can carry on the business. You can’t help yourself to your computer, the stapler, the coffeemaker—or the company’s customer list.
That is ethically and morally wrong. It is also legally wrong. And that’s why we filed suit.
Filed by: Corporate Communications
Posted in: Alticor, Amway, Quixtar, Transformation
October 29th, 2007 at 11:27 am
Mediocrity Stinks #389,
The point is you can’t take advantage of the Quixtar organization to raid it and build a separate business. The rule protects all IBO’s against this issue.
Medicbob #390,
It makes no difference whether they resigned or were terminated. They have to follow the 6 month/2 year rules.
jack #392,
Bub-bye.
ibofb #393,
Actually, I did respond to her post, but apparently it didn’t get posted, or I made an error in posting. I asked her how much her upline made on tools versus A/Q, so I will repeat it below for her to see.
Is your worldview so set that perhaps you can’t even question the post because your brain says it can’t possible be true?
Anne # 342,
How much do your upline Emeralds and Diamonds make in tools versus A/Q?
October 29th, 2007 at 11:28 am
John #394,
Quixtar posted the total bonuses and number of IBO’s for both 2001 and 2005?
October 29th, 2007 at 12:09 pm
Tex (402),
Absolutely! Don’t trust me. Go to THISBIZNOW (a Quixtar website). Click on “By the numbers”. You will absolutely see that Quixtar states they paid $370 million in bonuses in 2005. You will also see that Quixtar states they paid bonuses to 370,000 IBOs. It is very easy to see (from Quixtar’s website) that $370 million divided by 370,000 IBOs = $1,000 per year divided by 12 = $83 per month. The average IBO in 2005 earned $83 per month.
Now, even if the average IBO is doing retail as lets say 25% of his business (which we all know that IBOs retail almost nothing - but even if retail profit made up 25% of his business, the he is still only making $104 per month. Now can you see why (in the age of computers and calculators), Qixtar still gives numbers from 6 years ago? By the way tex, I genuinely appreciate your stand on the kingpin scammers. I just think that QUixtar loses all moral compass when they are doing one thing behind closed doors and then extolling the greatness of the kingpins in front of multitudes of downline. I do hope you will check out the THISBIZNOW website and see for yourself.
October 29th, 2007 at 12:38 pm
Tex (402),
In 401, I showed you that QUixtar gave the 2005 numbers. As for the 2001 numbers, Quixtar has published for the last 6 years that the average IBO earned $115 per month in 2001. One thing I just about guarantee. If the average earnings were growing, Quixtar would definately be announcing them publically. Also, if you look at the very very old loasuits and the FTC decisions, you will find that 30 years ago, there were about 350,000 IBOs in N America. Thirty years later there are about the same. This business has basically not even grown in in IBO numbers 30 years, much less duplicate as the kingpin scammers teach.
October 29th, 2007 at 12:48 pm
Tool Scam?
Is there a Tool Scam?
Why is this the first im hearing about it?
Speak up!
Tell us about the tool scam!
I bought tools. was I scammed?
Why didn’t anybody tell me?
Why is it always up to TEX to right these wrongs?
Wont anybody stand up for TEX?
He is trying to save us!
Im not tired of Tex.
I want more TEX!
More TEX!
More TEX!
Yeyyyyy Tex!
October 29th, 2007 at 1:02 pm
amazed #397,
I think you are leaving out just a couple itsy bitsy details.
A/Q provides the entire business opportunity, they manufacture and distribute the products, make deals with other vendors, pay the bonuses, do all the legal work with the various federal, state, and local government agencies, they took risk in paying/buying/constructing and maintaining buildings, fleets, employees, computer systems, telephone and internet communication systems, etc, etc., etc., which makes your IP analogy probably not very comparable to the above situation.
October 29th, 2007 at 2:03 pm
#379 John,
Assuming 10% is simply unfair speculation. Even Amway’s SA-4400 uses the math I used. Look at the stats that state the ratio of Diamonds, Emeralds, Platinums, etc. Unfortunately these figures won’t reflect activity, progress, or dynamics. They cannot measure leadership, education, or goals. There may be IBO’s in your group who aspire to just be around people. There may be IBO’s who are happy to be 1000pv.
You agree with me that 99% lose money? I never said 99% lose money, you did.
A platinum group requires 7500pv 6 of 12 months in the fiscal year. You could have someone struggling literally at 7000pv eating up most of the bonus money. Or you could have 30 personally sponsored 250pv’ers. Who knows.
It does not state how that group must be organized. You don’t know if it is wide, deep, or both. So you may not make sweeping assumptions about how many, any or all of the group IBO’s are making. Could be most of them are set up profitably. Or hardly any. It is detrimental to keep propagating an argument that starts out with too many assumptions.
You can blame the “tool scam” for failing if you wish. Perhaps a look at how your organization is built would be helpful, since that’s where the plan pays on the math (pv). Assuming the “tool scam” is costing everyone fortunes, why not go out and build it without the “tool scam”. Build it profitably and report your success to the others hear to learn from. You could start today. Take advantage of Quixtar University. I’m sure there’s plenty of disclaimers, I mean material, there for you to build your new business with.
October 29th, 2007 at 2:11 pm
john #404,
Here’s the definitions from the 2001 data:
The Average Monthly Gross Income for “Active” IBOs was $115.
Approximately 66% of all IBOs of record were found to be “active”**
**Based on an independent survey during 2001. “Active” means an IBO attempted to make a retail sale, or presented the Independent Business Ownership Plan, or received bonus money, or attended a company or IBO meeting in the year 2000.
“Gross Income” means the amount received from retail sales, minus the cost of goods sold, plus the amount of Performance Bonus retained. There may be significant business expenses, mostly discretionary, that may be greater in relation to income in the first year of operation.
This was not a simple “this divided by that”, there were thresholds for what an “active” IBO meant, and it turned out to be about 2/3 of all IBO’s. Applied to the 2005 data, this comes to about $124.50 instead of $83. Counting for inflation, it appears to be about flat, but the AVERAGE probably is fairly flat, even if there was growth during this time period, which of course, there wasn’t.
October 29th, 2007 at 2:11 pm
doesnt matter, lots are gone. damage IS done..
more to leave and if theres money in them tools. Im in.. see ya stupid, I mean tex…
Oh yeah thats right the leaders in Q dont make any money,, mmm I thought I saw someone in the top 50 richest people in america.. but there not in it for any money right..
Im sure tex will straighten it all out.. Id—
October 29th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
Everyone,
Tex is absolutely right on the tools scam. I challenge any of you. Listen to all of the tapes and CDs you have. Now add all you ave learned from functions. Now list 10 things about growing your business or your life you have learned in the last two years that you didn’t already know.
Seriously, list 10 things that you have learned in the last two years from your upline that you didn’t already know.
October 29th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
Tex (381)
Only a corporate insider would know that a study was done only every few years for “regulatory requirements”.
Thanks for poking your head out of the sand and revealing who you really are.
October 29th, 2007 at 3:33 pm
Brad Obert (407),
I have no idea what you are trying to say. All I am saying is that Quixtar admits that in 2005 they paid $370 million. And they admit they had 370,000 IBOS. All I am saying is that if you simply eliminate 90% of the IBOs and only pay 10%, they average per IBO (the top 10%) would be $192 per week. My point is that even if it only took 10% of IBOs to move the same volume, they would still on average be barely break even. When you consider $192 a week before tapes, CDs, functions, mileage, product samples) they aren’t making money.
October 29th, 2007 at 3:47 pm
Tex #400
Okay, so you HAVE had negative comments on the Amway name. —- There will be negative comments on any name. Some people are critical of tall buildings, football, artificial sweeteners, you name it. What’s your point?
Okay, you seem to be avoiding the main issue of the question. I’m talking about reputation. “Tall buildings” and “football” do not have a bad reputation like the name Amway does. And I think you’re smarter than to make bad comparisons like that (unless you’re trying to stretch your weak argument). TEAM simply does not have that kind of reputation simply because most people have never even heard of it. (I already know that you’ll want to say that TEAM already has a bad reputation with YOU and everyone at AltiQuixWay/IBO’s). But that doesn’t matter to us if you don’t mind paying for overpriced product and dealing with a bad reputation with the general public. We care about helping the rest of the world become financially free and to better themselves overall without overprices products.
But you’re right. My previous post had a lot of “what if’s.” Only time will tell whether that really happens or not. But i’ll bet my left arm that it happens soon. What would you have against that Tex? Would you have a problem with buying tools if it helped you become financially free and that you were making more from product than from tools?
October 29th, 2007 at 3:48 pm
Tex thanks for proving to me you’re just as crooked as the tool scams. Good luck finding more suckers to follow you - I’m sure you’ll help them lose as much money as the best of them!
October 29th, 2007 at 3:48 pm
Tex (405) - The 2005 data on THISBIZNOW says over 370,000 IBOs earned a bonus in 2005. How could they earn a bonus if they weren’t active? Thus, $370 million divided by 370,000 (Active who earned a bonus) = 1,000 per year or $83 per month. However, even if we use your incorrect number of $124 per month, that is a 6% growth over 4 years or 1.5% growth per year. Problem is that inflatiion has risen at double that rate. Thus, even using your incorrect inflated numbers, the average IBO is still worse off in 2005 than he was in 2001. Hard to believe since this is the best business opportunity in the world!
October 29th, 2007 at 3:59 pm
Everyone,
I really am interested in the top 10 significant things you have learned in the last two years from you upline (CDs, tapes, functions) that you didn’t already know. It seems to me if you listen to 52 CDs a year at about an hour a pop, you should be learning atleast one new innovative thing per CD. All I am asking is the top ten things that you didn’t already know.
October 29th, 2007 at 4:59 pm
Here is a list of ten things that popped into my head. All of these things represent a basic 180 degree change in my thinking from before I got involved with this business and the tools. These are not necessarily my top ten.
1. “Happy Wife, Happy Life” – This has helped me focus on my wife instead of my selfish needs.
2. I realized I have two ears and one mouth and I learned to use them in proportion.
3. Sales is a noble profession. I believed that salesman were slime balls and liars.
4. Love the unlovable. Look for the good in someone and focus on that.
5. If you help other people succeed you will succeed.
6. Find the need and fill it. Be a problem solver.
7. “Why” is way more important than “how”.
8. When the dream is big enough the facts don’t count. Today is the first day of the rest of your life. (Tex had a post somewhere disagreeing with this one; I can tell you that my marriage and family life is at 180 degrees from where it was. The reason is I had a dream focused on it and changed it. The facts were all against me, due to my own fault).
9. Everyone has a sign on their forehead that says: “Make me Feel Important”.
10. “Pay yourself first”, this allowed me to pay tuition for two kids at a private university.
I was someone that was an engineer type, with job mentality, TV watching, average type person.
Still learning and very excited about life and my future with Amway. I am not on TEAM. I do love the system and every penny spent on the system was worth it to me.
I can’t speak for anyone else and I don’t think you should.
Did you know that if you sell 7500 PV of products (core line) you will make over $5,000 in bonus plus over $6,000 in retail profit. Why are you talking about averages? What is the difference what the average is? You can make what you want if you really want it.
October 29th, 2007 at 5:44 pm
John #410,
There is a vast difference between people that know HOW to do a thing and people that know WHY. If you ask the most successful CEO’s in America, you would find that many of them listen to audios that help them to maintain their Positive Attitude. These audios do not “teach” them anything “new”.
It’s not about what you know, it’s about how you think.
Having said that; there are simple-minded people who allow themselves to become “victims” by wanting something-for-nothing and thinking that they could listen to enough audios to become wealthy simply by association.
The truth is, each of us is responsible for our decisions.
The point is… it is IMPOSSIBLE FOR ME TO BE SCAMMED! Why? Because I am responsible for my decisions! If I make a poor decision, I learn the lesson and pay the price.
Is there a “tool scam”? Probably. Who makes it a scam? The people who buy the “tools” for the wrong reason!
October 29th, 2007 at 5:54 pm
Does anyone else notice this, or is it just me?
What makes Tex an expert on any of this? He claims not to work for Q/A, he claims he never got over 1000PV, so where does he get all this data to work with and then claim he knows how it all works? Yet he continues to complain that no one will tell him what the “kingpins” are making (what a crybaby). So if he doesn’t have that data, how can anything he says be valid for anything at all except barfing crap all over us?
Tex is a liar and/or perpetrating his own scam. What a major loser.
October 29th, 2007 at 6:04 pm
In response to the question about my post #397,
There was no need to discuss any money or effort spent on the development of the compensation plan itself, nor the product IP; patents are registered to secure those.
I am ONLY referring to the, “You can’t help yourself to your computer, the stapler, the coffeemaker—or the company’s customer list.” statement in the heading of this forum.
Alticor/Amway/Quixtar wants to claim the “LOS” as being their Intellectual (or proprietary) Property.
So, just to keep our eyes on the ball… the “LOS” is a compilation of Independent Business Owners’ customer lists. This list was not “architected” in any way by the management of Alticor/Amway/Quixtar, it was only tracked by Alticor/Amway/Quixtar.
Just like the computer that you use to place orders, YOUR customer list is YOURS. The only other person who could claim your organizational structure would be your upline Platinum or mentor, and ONLY because they invested time and money TEACHING and ACTIVELY HELPING you build your team.
October 29th, 2007 at 7:14 pm
Did anyone read the Wall Street Journal’s Best Sellers List?? The Woodward,Brady book(Launching a Leadership Revolution) is #4 in business on this list. This is less than one week after it’s official release. Wow.
October 29th, 2007 at 7:20 pm
Ethically and morally wrong? How about changing the name from Quixtar to Amway after publicly telling prospective IBO’s (via your website) that this opportunity is NOT Amway?
Ethics, morals…. not sure you guys should be the one’s judging in this department!
Here’s a new website that I think has some great insight….
http://thebattleagainstquixstarison.blogspot.com/
October 29th, 2007 at 7:25 pm
john 410;
Could u please list for me 1 diamond, not 10, but 1 diamond that did it without a “system”.
October 29th, 2007 at 7:30 pm
John #410 - it’s not all about learning brand new things in every CD, book, etc. If so, why would there be shelves of books on the same topic in bookstores?
Come on, we all know that success principles are success principles… they are tried and true. However most of us don’t always apply these principles to our everyday life and stay disciplined in doing so.
If we (as in our collective society) all did, there wouldn’t be bankruptcies, massive debt issues, skyrocketing divorce rates, etc.
Sometimes we have to hear the same principles over and over again, from different prespectives to inspire us to reach for our goals and become better human beings.
Scam? I’d say the biggest scam I was in for 18 years was Corp. America - making money for someone else and not getting that much further ahead…. and I wasn’t doing to ’shabby’ by most peoples perspectives.
I for one don’t need to give you a list… the results are proof positive.
October 29th, 2007 at 8:01 pm
Utah #387
I agree with your thoughts. Here is the other thought in all that, who has their registrations from 1999? For that matter, how many people that registered 6-months ago have them? My sponsors took my registration so they could type it in. I’m guessing they don’t save all of them, but who knows.
I don’t know what any forms would have said, but to be in business as long as they have been, I have to assume there was something about the rules and regulations. Then, when each IBO renews, whether every year or through automatic renewal, I have to believe they covered themselves as they made the changes. I can’t imagine they didn’t.
I think you are right on when you say having laws changed is about the only way to change this. Obviously the FTC and everyone else has looked at them in the past and found everything OK. Unless there is a change in law forcing them to make a change I don’t see any outs.
October 29th, 2007 at 8:08 pm
Tex #364 & #375
I should have responded to this sooner. When I was talking to both teams trying to get information the Diamond for my previous team wouldn’t contact me or anyone else. Because of the lawsuits, etc. he would only talk to people who contacted him first. He never pressured me, but once I made it clear I wasn’t going with the team at this point he did ask questions. I did email him the facts as I knew them. I was told they were passed up through the ranks to Quixtar. On a couple occassions I was told I might get a call from Quixtar attorneys. I never did. I have a feeling with what was happening in my neck of the woods they had more dirt from people higher up than me so, if anything, my emails would probably only be used to back up someone else’s facts.
As for propriatary information: Basically what I assume, or was wondering, is if we register our business with Quixtar (not the team or any other organization), and Quixtar has their rules, would everything revert back to the Quixtar rules? And would any registered Quixtar IBO be considered Quixtar’s propriatary information, no matter what else they sign or don’t sign with any group regarding BSM’s, etc.?
October 29th, 2007 at 9:19 pm
Rick #409
That is the key word I’ve been trying to get answers on from the team…the word IF.
When we first made the move to the team my Platinum said in a meeting (and this was past down from Orrin through my Diamond to that Platinum) that having 50,50,25 on system paid $10,000 a month. Good money. Nothing to shake a stick at. $120,000 a year. What they conveniently left out at the time is you don’t see one penny until you are a Platinum.
Based on the numbers I heard Orrin and others say, two legs over is $75,000 plus and Emerald is $150,000 plus in Quixtar. If Orrin and others are telling the truth both ways will require about the same amount of people to make the same amount of money.
When this played out I was told the Diamonds were not taking any money right now and they are paying out at 5-deep in two legs. Not much, but they are. When I asked what would happen once the Diamonds started getting paid again they started hemming and hawing. So they are either going to find a way to pay out at lower levels and cut from someplace else (things like 50,50,25 maybe???) or they are going back to the equivalent of Platinum being the first place you can make money.
Once I heard this my question came back to one thing: Is it going to be harder to talk to people about changing their buying habits and spending a little more money, or continue to spend exactly what they are spending at the store AND spend an additional $100-plus a month on “leadership development” materials?
I can only answer for myself, but eating less fast food and buying a few bars and drinks made sense as I got started. Finding an additional $100 a month in my budget (instead of eating fast food, taking the kids to a movie, going out with my wife, etc.) wouldn’t have made any sense.
If that is the case, and the team motto of “plug them into the system and let the system do the work” still holds true, then how many college kids, single parents, families living on a budget, etc. are going to stick around long enough to “grow” into people that can build a 2nd leg by themselves and start earning money? In my mind, based on how much Orrin covers the 95%/5% E/S/B/I way of thinking, I felt we just alienated 95% of the population.
October 29th, 2007 at 9:34 pm
“System” Questions Answered…
Let’s talk tools…
As you scan the writing on the bathroom walls (negative internet sites / blogs) it soon becomes obvious that the biggest “beef” that people seem to have with networking type businesses is the “system” (CD’s/Books/Seminars). Many would like you to believe that systems only exist to create system tool profit. At first sight, these “beefs” seem legitimate…and in some cases, they actually are legitimate! But I would like to take some time to point out some MAJOR differences in what the TEAM leaders (Orrin Woodward, Chris Brady) have developed compared with what basically every other group has done. There must be some reason why major icons in the industry (Randy Haugen, Billy Florence et al) have joined the TEAM! Remember, the TEAM leaders have always stayed committed to making things “win-win”. In fact, Orrin often uses the expression “win-win or no deal”.
But first…before we get into the details of what makes a great system…let’s get one thing straight…not all tool systems are created equal, but tool systems are absolutely necessary to build a successful business for multiple reasons. Probably the biggest reason is a concept called “duplication”. Why is “duplication” important? Well, without it your business would never get off the ground. If you signed up a new person into your business and simply left them with “give me a call if you have any questions…” you are setting yourself up for a tsunami of calls if you plan to grow to any level of significance. How many people could you physically have the time and energy to support (not to mention the cell phone minutes you would burn through!) Instead, you could simply get them started on a training system that would do most of that work for you. This would free you up to grow your group rather than spending all your time personally training and motivating each person in your downline. Letting a “System” do the work to create the wealth is what Robert Kiyosaki, author of multiple wealth building books, refers to as a “B” type business. Most franchises are set up as “B” type businesses.
Duplication also insures that “what” is being taught actually works. If you get started today, and your sponsor got started yesterday, what do you think your sponsor is going to teach you about building your business? The system would insure that everyone is getting instruction from people that have already attained significant levels of success in exactly what you are trying to do. Nothing could be more logical than taking advice from people who have already accomplished what you are trying to accomplish.
Lastly, duplication helps to eliminate “discretion”. This is why franchises have such a high success rate. Franchise owners simply follow documented proven methods. In fact, most franchises will insist on duplication. If a Starbucks franchise owner decided, at his own discretion, to start selling hotdogs…a representative from Starbucks corporate office would be there…faster than you can say cappuccino… to shut that owner down!
Beyond “duplication”, the TEAM system (and some other systems) is also intended to help participants grow personally. If your goal would be to lead a team of people, it would make sense that you would want to learn how to lead! I think best selling author John Maxwell sums it up best when he says, “everything rises and falls on leadership”. This point actually gets to the heart of what makes the TEAM system so different. The TEAM is committed to raising up a group of leaders that are building businesses based on traditional Christian principles. The first stated goal of the TEAM is to bring one million people on board. Do you think that our country would look (and think and act) a little different with one million people of character chasing the same vision? I think that this country…and then the world…will be positively impacted by what the TEAM has to offer. So why do so many critics have issues with training systems? Here is the answer…most systems are not set up with “win-win” principles… In fact, most tool systems are straight up pyramid schemes.
No matter how good the content of the system tools…No matter how necessary the system is to building your business…if the deal is not a win-win, it won’t last long. Here is an example of how most systems “share” tool profit. When you reach a certain level, you work out a deal with your upline Diamond and you start to reap the “negotiated” profit. As an example, if a CD costs $6, the Diamond would sell the CD to a Platinum for $5.50, a Sapphire for $4.75 and an Emerald for say, $4. Your profit would be the difference in your cost for the CD and the $6 price you charged your downline. Now, inherent problems exit here. First, what happens when a downline gets excited and goes Diamond? Here is what has happened in the past…they either strike an aggressive deal with their upline Diamond to share more of the profit, or they simply start their own system…starting all over with a $6 CD that they sell to their Platinums for $5.50 etc…you get the picture. Now, let’s ask the logical question. Can you (the new person getting started in business) ever…using this profit sharing method…make more than the Diamond? Nope. That, my friends, would be what you call a pyramid. It also makes for some ugly business dealings.
Beyond an incredible leadership development system, Orrin and Chris have also created a FAIR profit sharing model. The profits go into profit sharing pools and are divided monthly based on the size of the business you have built. The entire model is based on a business strength formula which ensures that anyone can make as much or more than anyone else. On the TEAM, he who does the work gets paid…not necessarily he who develops the system. There are no “special deals” for anyone…including Orrin and Chris. In fact, they are constantly focused on making the opportunity better and better for the newest business owner. As the TEAM grows…the tool pricing drops based on volume. CD/Seminar costs have consistently been reduced over the years. In fact, Orrin has recently talked about(at a TEAM event) the day when CD’s could be reduced to $3 or even simply downloaded from the website!
You see, when leaders focus on what is right, great things can happen! Can you imagine a day that someone gets the system AND the COMMERCE right? Can you see a day when the pricing of products is so good that more people come…which causes the prices to be reduced…which would cause more people to come…which would cause the prices to be reduced…which would cause more people to come…I am getting excited just thinking about
October 29th, 2007 at 10:44 pm
john #410
Here ya go!!
1) People have 4 distinct personalities
People resist changing because it upsets their present security.
Choleric, phlegmatic, sanguine, melancholy
(I’ll count this as only one)
2) The first answer most people give for not doing something sounds good, but isn’t the true reason, the second answer is the real reason.
3) Results come from habits which come from actions which come from beliefs which come from how we think. Want to change your results? You MUST change your thinking (reading this Tex?).
4) The difference between successful people and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of courage, but rather a lack of will.
5) The Human subconsious mind can is programmed not on belief, but on the repetitious information it receives.
6) A major key to wealth is the process known as “delayed gratification”.
7) The difference in lifestyles does not depend on your background, but rather your knowledge about duplication and leverage.
9) The only way to get anybody to do anything for you is you have to get them to want to do it.
10) Their is wealth in leadership.
O.K.? This took me about 2 minutes ( there is so much more on this topic I couldn’t decide which ones to use). I swear, I learned all of this from our system, and I have 2 degrees from a major university and ran my own business for over 15 years.
October 29th, 2007 at 11:35 pm
#428 Steven Utah said:
“If a Starbucks franchise owner decided, at his own discretion, to start selling hotdogs…a representative from Starbucks corporate office would be there…faster than you can say cappuccino… to shut that owner down!”
Aside from the fact that Starbuck’s aren’t franchises (aren’t most of them company-owned? correct me if I’m wrong), isn’t that kind of like what actually happened back in August???!!!
#429 Thunderstruck, excellent list, we agree on those ones. I read the first edition of Leadership Revolution (got a second hand copy through Amazon), and am now waiting for my copy of the trade edition to arrive. No doubt I’ll learn some more from it as it borrows heavily from many other outstanding authors, including John Maxwell for the 5 ‘levels of influence’ principles.
Still doesn’t change the fact that Orrin screwed up big time back in August.
October 29th, 2007 at 11:36 pm
#352 Chan Man:
Ummm… you do realize that you’re on the ALTICOR website, right?
OK, just checking.
October 29th, 2007 at 11:38 pm
RE: Changing the name back to Amway.
Yes, I am very satisfied with the name changing back. Most of my previous downline said they were glad that it is happening. They all have said they felt the denial of the heritage made Amway seem like a bad thing..
Many companies change names and keep the great stuff they’re doing. I can think of many, especially in the financial markets and manufacturing arena
But, in reality, the only way Amway gets a bad name is from ignorant IBOs who go out and make outlandish claims and do stupid stuff like trash other good companies, like Procter & Gamble, Costco, SC Johnson, etc.
Having witnessed how “former IBOs” are trashing AQ, I think those who remain will do very, very well. .
You lose integrity points by disparaging your last supplier. It is obvious why you are leaving, so why hang around here, if you have soooo much to do… ??
We aren’t going with you and your negative ilk….
October 29th, 2007 at 11:43 pm
Freedom #426:
Why are you asking Tex how Quixtar works? He doesn’t know. He claims he doesn’t work for them, and he never built a business. And he’s a complete loser, never even building a business of any substance. Do you really think he has anything valid to tell you? Your questions should be directed to Quixtar.
October 30th, 2007 at 12:10 am
Haven’t you guys beat this dead horse long enough?
October 30th, 2007 at 12:27 am
Steven Utah #428,
Great post.
It’s too bad that many people just don’t understand the true power of duplication and leadership.
October 30th, 2007 at 12:33 am
Good luck to all in the future, whatever it holds for you all. God Bless. I cant watch it anymore….
Dont think tex is a diamond, so my question is how does he know all this??? makes you think doesnt it… see you on the other side…
October 30th, 2007 at 2:03 am
John #410
Since being plugged into the INET system along with PDP inc. then being plugged into Team, my life has changed for the better in so many ways. I am so happy with who I have become and am becoming. I actually believe in myself. I smile at people and talk to people, which is completely different than my natural personality. The difference, between who I am and who I think I would have become had I not been plugged in, is huge and worth every cent I spent on the system. Further it is totally fine with me that MASSIVE profits have been made off my efforts to better myself. I made MASSIVE profits off it to, just not financial profits. It’s sort of like when you get your car fixed, somebody makes money, somebody gets a better car. Well I got a better me (of course for that to work I had to throw in the to, and my energy to do it). At the same time I think it sucks to show the plan implying all the money comes from product flow, that creates the lifestyle being shown, when it mostly comes from the system. I do not believe in that and I think it’s awful how much it goes on.
You asked a great question though, and I wanted to answer it. Some of the reasons given are going to sound like I’m simply repeating what I heard somebody say. I think the reason is because those are the comments that best describe the parts of the basic philosophy I run my life by. Good to point out that the much of what I’ve learned has been applied to the way I see the world, not so much specific facts, also making this a fun questions to answer. Thanks for asking it.
Here’s my off hand list. I tried to avoid things other people said
1. If you come up with a problem, offer up some solutions along with it
2. The value of delayed gratification
3. The opposite of success is quitting, not failure.
4. The opposite of courage is conformity
5. Who you are matters much more than who people think you are.
6. The importance of having goals that align with the direction you want to go in.
7. The difference between doing things and getting things done.
8. That people have absolute control over their lives, and where ever you are in life, you made the appointment to be there.
9. To think about the obstacles a head of time and create a plan to get through them, instead of being blind sided by them.
10. That people work best when they are working in the area of strength.
11. To live the way you want to be remembered.
12. To not get caught “in the thick of thin things.”
13. To attack root problems not just the current situation
14. That facing your problems and being honest about them is essential to effectively solving them.
15. The PDCA approach
16. The importance of being very aware of your input
17. The value of time, money and people
18. Believe in people, but don’t count on them.
19. To begin with the end in mind
20. Everything rises and falls on leadership.
Amazed #418
Very well put.
October 30th, 2007 at 2:06 am
Olib (417)
knp (424)
Thunderstruck (429)
I appreciate each of you taking the time to answer my question. I am thankful for honest dialogue. I have been around WWDB for sometime and the things you share are basically the same things I have heard from them over and over. Thanks for your input.
October 30th, 2007 at 2:12 am
Brad Obert (423),
Name one diamond (just one) who has never eaten eaten a hamburger. Thus, one must eat hamburgers do be a diamond. Being on a system has no more to do with being a diamond than eating a hamburger. If all the money spent on tools and functions were spent on products, the Quixtar business would double and so would the number of diamonds.
By the way, what system was the very first diamond on? And which came first, the system or the diamond?
October 30th, 2007 at 3:43 am
steven utah soon to be former ibo #428:
Good description, the only problem, and a VERY serious one at that, a tool system to support the Amway business should also train how to move product.
I don’t have to imagine the day somebody gets the system AND the commerce right, I am living it at the moment. The group I form a part of, probably has more Crowns than what TEAM has Diamonds! (14 Crowns according to AmwayWiki).
Your description of a tool system actually just proves Amway’s concerns with TEAM. - They are promoting a tools business, not the Amway business.
October 30th, 2007 at 4:00 am
Amazed #various on IP:
What you leave out of the equation is that each of those individuals you are talkings about, has a contractual realtionship with Quixtar/Amway. The only claim you have on them, is the additional bonus you get from Q if you get them (IBO’s) to perform well. (According to Q/A terms).
There is no way that a court of law will uphold your claim (based an whatever nebulous grounds) over Q’s contractual rights.
The court has said repeatedly, and also to TEAM in particular, that contracts matter.
October 30th, 2007 at 5:24 am
#433 Cmon people
Although Tex does get obnoxious from time to time, it does no good calling someone a name nor does it make you look any better. Calling someone a name only makes you look like an idiot. (Not saying you are one, but please have respect.)
This thing just keeps growing doesn’t it?
Anyway, Tex, youi are right but the 6 months is a drop in the bucket. The 2 year thing will we be over before you know it too & it’s definitely something I’m looking forward to. I personally do not know the direction we are heading as “Team,” but I am ready to step up to the challenge & become the person I know I can be because of the Leadership training that I am getting right now. They don’t teach this kind of stuff in school plus, this is something that will change our country for the Better. I understand all the legalities involved with the LOS but I disagree that they are a property of Q/A. If I want to call the people who I got involved with, I will certainly do that but I will not encourage them to resign as no one encouraged me to resign as well. We are about doing the “Right thing” no matter what the cost. The right thing may not always be obvious but it is the principle that America was founded upon. You are always welcome to join a noble fight such as this.
October 30th, 2007 at 11:12 am
AEM (437)
You have earned my respect. Your answer is greatly appreciated and very genuine. While the things on your list (and others) seem obvious to me such as 1 and 2 on your list. If you encounter a problem, offer up solutions and the value of delayed gratification. However, I can see these as beneficial to ones life. The part where you mention that it sucks to sometimes show the plan when you know the massive profits come from the system and not product flow. That is the heart of my negative feelings about QUixtar and the systems. Thanks for the dialogue.
October 30th, 2007 at 11:12 am
amazed #420 - You are right on with your comparison. Quixtar just tracked our customer lists, lists that we created, not them. They benefited by us sending volume to them. I think if this points ever gets to a court of law to determine, the answer is as clear as day. Who knew the contact prior to any purchases, the person in the field of course. How many court cases are out there where a former salesman or manager has left a company and started either in a new business or competing company. The customers sometimes would follow that person. A court can’t and dictate to an individual or company and force them to buy their cleaning materials or soap from one company or another.
Steven Utah #428 - I think the best explanation I’ve seen on this blog. The money goes to the people who deserve it, the ones building it. The most fairest structure I’ve come across.
October 30th, 2007 at 11:25 am
#439 John
Lets use common sence, is it possible to build a business without tools, yes it is. however it is not probable and hasn’t been done before. The problem we have is from an infant we are told no, and we can’t do that…I challange you to count how many times in a day you say something negative in just normal everyday talk, we are humans and have been taught to doubt our ability so if you were to take the money spent in tools and dump it into pv/bv how long would it take for people a youngs ibo’s circle of influence to tell them hey buddy you are stupid, you think you are going to buy that and make money yeah right. I would venture to say in the first 60 days of someone building the biz that way they would jump out, That is why the tools are there, it is to say I have done it and so can you…I know the argument is they make all their money in tools so what that tells me if i do what they did i too will make a lot of money and it might be in tools as well, news flash the professors at universities all across the world are making money from the “tools”. Lets also put things into context, show me a carpenter that has built a successfull biz with out tools and to your hamburger analogy show me a hamburger biz that has suceeded in biz without hamburgers, we are in a people biz show me one person that can lead another person without growing.
October 30th, 2007 at 12:29 pm
Piet #441,
A contract can only be enforced if it follows the laws. In this case, a major contract modification was made without any potential for negotiation or compensation for the change.
The pre-change rules of conduct allowed an individual IBO to sponsor his/her personals into a competing MLM and to promote anything they want to them. This version of the contract was fine as it made proper allowance for the true owner of each customer list, or “LOS”, to maintain the rights as the owner.
The current version of the IBO contract should be ruled as unenforceable due to the heavy restrictions and the lack of negotiation of the added rules. Also, the fact that the rules are not presented at the time of the contract being signed should not be ruled as a properly executed “agreement”, since the IBO was not given all of the information that affects the contract.
October 30th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
Jason 270
When you challenged tex to come out of the dark and build his business his way, he gave a very elaborate and thought out excuse. tex has spent many hours constructing a rationale for lack of effort. As we build the business, we encounter people like this all of the time. When someone is committed to doing nothing, no amount of follow through will break their inertia.
tex is a coward, pure and simple. tex is afraid to enter the arena of activity.
October 30th, 2007 at 1:14 pm
Everyone,
Here is another question. I have heard for the last 5 years the “2-5 year plan to diamond and financial freedom”. The “systems” are supposed to be the best and no one gets to diamond without the system. And remember as WWDB puts it, the system is a “proven system of success”.
Founders Diamond is a diamond who qualifies all 12 months of the year. According to Quixtars numbers in their famous “2001 survey”, .0018% of IBOs get to this level. That is 1 in 55,555 IBOs. How can any system claim to be a proven system of success when only 1 in 55,555 people succeed the level they teach provides financial freedom. Some other numbers to consider.
Founders Platinum 1 in 369
Founders Emerald 1 in 5376
The numbers are really sad.
October 30th, 2007 at 1:22 pm
John #439,
Very poor logic. I simply asked if you could name 1 diamond who did it without a training system. Since you cannot, you use sarcasm and try to deflect. I was sincerely asking, I’m not diamond, diamond was the goal. So perhaps you could find me one that did it without the system so I could learn from him/her. Oh wait, that would be mentoring wouldn’t it? Hopefully he/she would teach me for free.
I wonder what pin level the authors of the Quixtar University training program are? Unless it would make more sense to learn how to build this from someone who hasn’t?
I also wonder why, if the “tools” are such a bad part of this business, why simply cannot someone just go build it without the system, blog their testamony about it, the “tools” would become useless. All someone has to do is show it can be done and duplicated.
October 30th, 2007 at 1:36 pm
Testing, testing…1…2…3.
October 30th, 2007 at 3:06 pm
#442 MedicBob
Given the fact that Tex disparages and ridicules everone that disagrees with him, commonly referring to them as idiots, losers, suckers, morons…, I find your admonishment of Cmon people funny. But I would have to agree with you. There is no need for name calling.
fyi…Barrister has a new website. The latest post is pretty funny. http://barristerquixtarlawsuit.blogspot.com/
October 30th, 2007 at 4:13 pm
MedicBob: I guess you’re new here. Go back and read the disgusting things Tex says to people. Then go read some of the other blogs and see how many people continue to lose respect for Q/A because of Tex’s malicious and vicious attacks on anyone and everyone.
And he IS a loser… has nothing to show for all his bluster.
October 30th, 2007 at 5:11 pm
John #448
I like your posts and how you think. If you look at the whole picture and think that achieving the diamond level is the only success, you miss the point about the training system. See, what we have learned transcends this opportunity. I previously listed (among others) the benefits I have received as a result of applying what the tools teach.
I am not a diamond, but I am more successful now than ever. On the other hand, if NOBODY has reached diamond without a training system, and even if a few have done it with a system,
I like my odds with rather than without.
You should read Robert Kiyosaki’s “Cashflow Quadrant” and see what he says about a training system, or Paul Zane Pilser’s “The Next Millionaires” and see what he says about “Intellectual Distribution”, I think it will help you immensly. Besides, these books have nothing to do with TEAM or Quixtar, so there is no bias.
Finally, I will tell you this, there was a person in my downline that a couple of years ago called to thank me on getting the systrem to him. He was alcoholic and had no hope, what the CD’s and Books did for him was “only” this: He quit drinking cold turkey, he became the youth pastor at his church, he once again became involved with his family when at one time he was a loner. He called to tell me the system “saved his life”. Wow, put a price tag on that!!
You may think the numbers are “sad”, but they are much better than the numbers being off training tools.
October 30th, 2007 at 5:58 pm
Can someone tell me what a “Quixtar Independant Business Operator” is?
October 30th, 2007 at 5:59 pm
I heard that The Big Q is projected to loose 125 million dollars by the end of the year due to their handling of their issues with TEAM.
Anyone hear any other numbers?
October 30th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
Everyone,
According to the rules of conduct, it is your responsibility to train and motivate your downline. Suppose you have 10 people in your downline & it is your responsibility to train and motivate them. So you tell them they should listen to a CD that you made. However, you don’t give it to them at cost or even at a 20% profit. Instead, you charge them 6 or 7 dollars that costs you about $1 to duplicate. Is that appropriate? If you really care about your 3 college kids, two single moms and 5 low income families, why don’t you help them build their business as cost. The bigger their business gets, the more you make from Q as they are your downline. Don’t tell me you care about them if you are making a 6 or 7 hundred percent profit off of them. And yes a CD does cost less than a dollar to duplicate. Now multiply this by tens of thousands and you will see what the systems are doing to their downline. They are making their fortunes by taking money out of the pockets of the very people who need a boost getting started.
October 30th, 2007 at 7:05 pm
Thank you Amway for defending this business. What TEAM has done is wrong on many levels, and I appreciate your efforts to protect the business, and so does everyone else who follows the rules.
Nothing more needs to be said except keep it up!
October 30th, 2007 at 9:01 pm
#439 - Brad Obert - How about the first five Amway Crowns; Charlie and Elsie Marsh, Roger and Ruth Krause, Gordon and Edie Ross, Jim and Sharon Janz, and Dick and Bunny Marks for starters. The systems came long after they became Crowns. In fact, before the systems there were usually more than 200 new Platinum level leaders with solid profitability in the Amagram every month.
#446 - Amazed - Perhaps all of those TEAM IBOs like Orrin and Chris should refund all of the bonuses they apparently didn’t actually earn from Quixtar since you are convinced their contracts aren’t valid…
October 30th, 2007 at 9:02 pm
Brad #407,
You agree with me that 99% lose money? I never said 99% lose money, you did. —- True, but you did imply this by confining the bonus money to 1%. Many of the 99% don’t do anything and end up quitting, so they technically don’t lose money. However, I have also seen many Platinums state on various blogs they either just broke even or made very little money. Granted, this depends on their structure, but many Platinums go on extra trips, run all over the country to chase legs, etc., so these statements are not unreasonable.
A platinum group requires 7500pv 6 of 12 months in the fiscal year. You could have someone struggling literally at 7000pv eating up most of the bonus money. Or you could have 30 personally sponsored 250pv’ers. Who knows. —- While true, we are talking about averages, not the extreme possible examples.
It does not state how that group must be organized. You don’t know if it is wide, deep, or both. So you may not make sweeping assumptions about how many, any or all of the group IBO’s are making. Could be most of them are set up profitably. Or hardly any. It is detrimental to keep propagating an argument that starts out with too many assumptions. —- See above.
You can blame the “tool scam” for failing if you wish. Perhaps a look at how your organization is built would be helpful, since that’s where the plan pays on the math (pv). Assuming the “tool scam” is costing everyone fortunes, why not go out and build it without the “tool scam”. —- I can hardly wait.
Build it profitably and report your success to the others hear to learn from. You could start today. Take advantage of Quixtar University. I’m sure there’s plenty of disclaimers, I mean material, there for you to build your new business with. —- There are a couple of administrative activities that have to be completed before we start.
October 30th, 2007 at 9:12 pm
Rick #409,
Is the sky falling as well? The rest of your post isn’t even complete sentences, no response is necessary.
john #410,
Most IBO’s less than 2 years “old” probably learn a lot from the tools, and this is the main purpose of the tools, for the newer people. The idea is duplication, so if you had to keep learning a lot, it would be hard to have such a business. As others have said, it is also a good idea to repeat and reinforce the ideas, repetition is the mother of learning.
October 30th, 2007 at 9:27 pm
timeandmoney #411,
I never claimed to KNOW whether the study was not done every year, it just doesn’t make sense to pay for the studies more often and not use them in their materials.
marc #413,
I think you are over-estimating the negative reputation of Amway, many people have never even heard of it. TEAM is GONE, so it doesn’t matter what their reputation is. The overpriced products are being addressed.
TEAM cares about helping themselves to the rest of the world’s back pockets, so the upline can become financially free. I think you will soon find yourself high and dry, and be in a similar position former Diamond Andy Andrews’ left his flock in. Are you familiar with Andy?
But you’re right. My previous post had a lot of “what if’s.” Only time will tell whether that really happens or not. But i’ll bet my left arm that it happens soon. What would you have against that Tex? —- I agree something will happen soon. What I have against it is Orrin and Co. could have gone away quietly and not cause nearly as much damage to A/Q, had they not filed the “illegal pyramid” lawsuit.
Would you have a problem with buying tools if it helped you become financially free and that you were making more from product than from tools? —- It doesn’t matter where most of the profit came from, as long as there was transparency. I think transparency and competition would bring the tool prices and profit down below A/Q profit.
October 30th, 2007 at 11:22 pm
John #443
Thank you.
October 31st, 2007 at 12:34 am
Thunderstruck (453),
I have no problem with a system offering life skills & strategies for personal living. My connection is to WWDB. Here is where I have a problem. WWDB teaches that it is a proven system of success and that by doing DORE you can “expect” to be a diamond and financially free in 2-5 years. That is not true. WWDB has less diamonds today than just a few years ago. On their WWDB website, several diamonds have recently been removed from the success storyies icon. Rod Alcott, Greg Gilmour and others. Quixtar should not let this go on. On the WWWDB private franchising review it says, You can “expect” to earn $57,000 in your first year. That is absolutely not true. Quixtar should ban this if they ban TEAM or anyone else.
October 31st, 2007 at 12:41 am
TEX,
You haven’t responded to my post 415. It is the one where I clearly show you that IBOs are earning less in 2005 than in 2001. It is the one where I show you that in 2005 the average “active” IBO who received a bonus earned $83 per month.
October 31st, 2007 at 12:42 am
John#456,
So are you saying that you don’t believe that a person should have to pay for their business education? And further, that a person shouldn’t sell a duplicatable system for building a business?
Why?
What if the suppliers of said materials can only reap profits based upon a compasation plan that ALL customers of the materials supplier participate in?
Sound like a familier plan?
Yes, yes it does.
So think before you say that it is unfair.
October 31st, 2007 at 12:42 am
Darn spelling…
October 31st, 2007 at 12:56 am
timeandmoney #411:
Great observation. A couple of others and myself have caught Tex on some posts as well. Probably the biggest give a way of all is that there is not one single IBO alive that has sat in at least one living room and shared dreams with prospects could ever be as twisted and ugly as he demonstates in his posts.
Now the corporation, on the other hand, who has no idea what it is like to be “out in the field” has clearly demonstrated their ugliness.
You have to admit, it was a great strategy on their part. After so much criticism about their juvenile way of posting the latest news in the beginning, they allowed “Tex”, aka, Amway employee to carry out their dirty work.
Get their message out, get mad at “Tex” instead of Corporate Communications.
It WAS a good idea until Tex started getting sloppy and giving away a little too much information at times.
October 31st, 2007 at 1:17 am
Chuck when they went Crown, do you know how much an IBO at just Direct made on the products? What % of every $1.00 did the Person make and what did Amway Make?
October 31st, 2007 at 1:18 am
Back in the early 60s, was it almost 1/3 Amway and 2/3 Distributers and were the products lower than the competition? When you can make a lot of money, it takes less work to convence people to work hard. (less pep talks)
October 31st, 2007 at 1:32 am
Speaking about the cost of the system. Compare it to any traditional business you want, is it really that much? The biggest tool order I’ve ever placed has been smaller than what I’ve seen people spend on clothes (at a single time). The biggest problem with the tools is how people think of them. ‘Amazed’ made this point (very well) a few posts back, but I think many people see the system as something that will do the job, not as a tool to use to get the job done. If you can spend every last dime you have the Team system. Listen to every cd 50 times, attend everything, read every book, watch every dvd, never apply any of it and never make a dime back. Just because you own a hammer and a nail doesn’t mean the hammer will ever nail the nail into anything. The final ingredient you have to add is your own efforts and actions. Knowledge is not power, applied knowledge is.
When it comes to looking at the percentage of people who hit platinum and above you should only look at the ones following the system being taught. Most people don’t make it because most people don’t follow the system that is being promoted. Wealth is a matter of leverage, and in MLM duplication is leverage. When people start inventing stuff, duplication stops and so does leverage. I realized a little while after I started that I was actually building teams of people committed enough to be on system. At functions I’d meet my actual team because they were there to. It’s like baking a cake, you following the instructions. The more you deviate during the process the more your results will deviate. Few people make it because few people don’t deviate.
October 31st, 2007 at 1:36 am
All claims, promises, and testimonials from TEAM about these “income opportunities” are false, misleading and harmful. The “TOOLS” they sell are the equivalent of me sending you to buy a lottery ticket while selling you motivational tapes along the way.
People lose in these schemes because they are lured into a money trap. Any scheme in which less than 1% make a net profit is not an “opportunity.”
The massive loss rates in MLM would be the same even if every participant had the talents and ambitions of Donald Trump and Warren Buffet! The loss rates are pre-determined by the scheme’s design and operation. The recruiters at the top know this even as they falsely hype the scheme as the “greatest opportunity in the world.”
MLM’s make promises - they do not deliver on them. Anybody involved in this business casts a very dark shadow around them before our Lord.
October 31st, 2007 at 1:41 am
Today does A/Q/A make almost 2/3 - 60% while a Direct will not make 1/3 - 30% of a dollar. 10% or less for the bonuses going to the people above Direct. Today even at Crown level, I do not think that a person will get 40% off the retail price of a product. (I am not a Crown - A/Q/A published the different bonuses) Real soon with the way the % of retail prophet, the PV and the BV keeps shrinking on the products, I doubt that even at Diamond it will be hard put to make 30% off your products. Difference from retail to IBO cost added to bonus on the products bought buy a person.
October 31st, 2007 at 1:44 am
#455 Jerad,
Do you mean sales may be down $125 million from last year? Interesting rumor. That would be down by about %12, not bad all things considered. About 2% of Alticor sales world-wide — think about that!!! — assuming all other markets are only flat this year, when in fact we know most of them are growing. I would have expected the North American drop to be more, and if that’s all it turns out to be, it will be a cheap price to accept in order to clean things up. With the growth in the other groups, and the new retail-competitive products now out with Simply Nutrilite and Artistry Essentials, Quixtar will do just fine.
October 31st, 2007 at 1:46 am
Tex,
In 459 you say are asked to go build the business without the tool scams and you reply “i can hardly wait.” Why wait? apparently people have crown with no system (chuck 458), go crown tex.
More seriously what you ask for in the tools is not unreasonable. The tool profits should be much more out in the open, they should be included in the plan. Sell audio’s from accredited teams through Quixtar with PV/BV. Whatever it is the situation needs some fixing.
October 31st, 2007 at 1:52 am
This is a good place to begin since almost all of the problems we see today with the Quixtar/Amway business stem from the extremely high prices of the core line products. Over the years there has been a pattern established by Q/A that Ive noticed. Every other year core line prices increased around 7% and on alternating year pv/bv decreased. At the same time starting in the mid 90s competitors of Q/A began improving and concentrating there products. Now you can buy at a store laundry detergent of 100+ loads for less than half the cost of SA8. You can compare other products yourself at www.quixtarlostmycents.blogspot.com . If you check into www.freeyheibo.com under court pleadings the Florence affidavit you will see that Doug DeVoss states (paraphrased) our products are over engineered we are going to cut production costs. So as prices increased and IBO bonuses decreased, quality also decreased.
The ramifications are many for one retail sales went from difficult to nearly impossible. Can you imagine trying to sell products to your friend at twice the cost he is currently paying? He might think your just trying to make money off of him, he might get a little mad at you. Secondly little would your friend know that your barely making any real profit on the retail side refer to www.theiborebellion.blogspot.com the video title Amway next 18-24 months. This would make it nearly impossible to achieve the necessary retail target needed starting this year in order to qualify for bonuses which may lead some people to fudge numbers to qualify. we could go on all day about the ramifications but I’ll spare you. The question is do you want to be a part of a business where you have to compromise your integrity. The DeVos and Van Andel families as well as Q/A management think you should. I don’t think I should so I resigned without being persuaded. This was not the only reason. We’ll talk about those another time.
What motivates Q/A to do these things? The problem lies in there thinking. Its hard to imagine billionaires would violate simple rules of economics i.e. Economies of scale. If you lower costs increasing competitiveness you increase volume. As you increase volume the production and distribution costs decrease per unit of volume. Creating more demand and more volume. In the book An American life Ronald Reagan quoted a 14th century Muslim philosopher Ibn Khaldoon “at the beginning of the dynasty, taxation yields large revenue from small assessments. At the end of the dynasty taxation yields small revenue from large assesments.” The sad thing is the DeVoss and Van Andel families in there prideful thought forgot the most valuable asset on earth. The incredible drive, ingenuity, focus, and energy of the IBOs who in spite of fighting against nearly impossible thinking and odds kept Q/A a billion dollar company in N. America. If you are currently a Q/A IBO and are going to stay good luck and god bless. Ask yourself this. Do the DeVoss and Van Andel Families and the Q/A management really care about you. I think all you have to do is read your BIZ Reference Guide and you’ll see.
October 31st, 2007 at 1:59 am
Chuck #458,
What I said was that the rules of conduct should not be enforceable; specifically, the restrictive changes that were added without any negotiations.
I chose the name “amazed” because I really am… amazed… I am amazed that IBOs argue and fight over a contract that limits all of them… I am amazed that IBOs point fingers at other IBOs, claiming that this one is a “kingpin” or that one is hurting people by exposing a flawed contract… I am amazed that the IBOAI takes the side of the corporation against IBOs, when the IBOAI is supposed to support IBOs… I am amazed that IBOs call each other names and act like this whole issue is anything more than a matter that should be ruled on in an open court room by a non-biased jury to bring out the light of truth, whatever that may be… but most of all, I am amazed at myself for making the decision to believe that the Quixtar corporation would treat the IBOs fairly after Rich and Jay no longer run it… Dick, Doug, and Steve… you should be ashamed.
October 31st, 2007 at 3:25 am
Amazed #446,
The court has disagreed at least once with you recently - they said that the Amway contract was enforcable, and that is why the arbitration clause was enforced.
October 31st, 2007 at 6:19 am
Tex #461
You are saying it doesn’t matter where most of the profit comes from as long as there was transparency… Had you ever been to a TEAM open meeting? It was very, very transparent where the money came from, in regards to tools. The people attending the meeting just had to really listen to what was said.
October 31st, 2007 at 8:28 am
Tex #460
Great post, this proves my hypothesis that you quit learning years ago.
October 31st, 2007 at 8:40 am
John #456
Good scenario, but not quite correct. Everybody is assuming somebody is making the total profit on a CD, and one person in not. The profits are distributed, one individual might be making only pennies on a CD. And regarding the “misfortunant” and the cost of CD’s. I’ve seen a hundred times how people say they can’t afford the CD’s, fair enough, I’ve given away over a thousand over the years. But, I look around their house and see they have cable tv, they smoke, drink, eat fast food, and so forth. All very costly.The point here is anybody can afford the system, most people choose not to. It’s sad. I just had someone the other day drop off the system training as he is going thru some family issues. I felt realy bad for him until he informed me he had to hang up becasue he was late for his bowling league!! Remember, it’s not the cost of producing the CD, it’s the information that you receive. I was going to subscribe to a totally different training program (something totally unrelated to our business), the cost of 12 CD’s, a book, and a website training program was $1600!! No way. The “value” wasn’t there, but from our system I purchase 12 CD’s a month for $ 76.32, a book a month for about $10-$15 and a seminar ticket for $25. Cheap. The value? Priceless.
October 31st, 2007 at 10:15 am
Amazed,
Did you notice that one of your posts made it to the Grand Rapids hearing on 10/15? You are a blog star!
October 31st, 2007 at 10:32 am
Piet,
The good thing is that TEAM doesn’t have to use Quixtar’s arbitrators.
I wonder if arbitration is even manditory. Can Orrin and Chris just say “whatever….we’ll just wait the six months” or can Quixtar force them to arbitrate?
Ron Simmons wraps up all the court action really nicely in his post on the crazyfunwildworld.blogspot.com for anyone who wants to see who won what.
The ruling that allowed the Kentucky major to go on was a big win for TEAM. I went and had a great time.
October 31st, 2007 at 10:43 am
Thunderstruck (480).
When you very first got “on” the system, were you told it would help you build your Quixtar business? Were you told, like I was tokd that if you do these things you an go diamond in 2-5 years? Here are a couple of questions: How long have you been “on” the system? How long in QUixtar? How much net profit did you make from Quixtar last year? Be honest. We don’t know who you are so you should be able to share these numbers.
October 31st, 2007 at 11:12 am
Tex #461
“I think you are over-estimating the negative reputation of Amway, many people have never even heard of it. TEAM is GONE, so it doesn’t matter what their reputation is. The overpriced products are being addressed.”
What’s interesting here is that you touched on the one of the EXACT reasons why TEAM filed the lawsuit in the first place. TEAM has been trying to get them to address the overpriced products for years, and TEAM knew that the only way to get their attention was to bring it out into the public in the form of a lawsuit. It would’ve just gotten buried in arbitration, because nobody would’ve known that it ever happened. The leaders of TEAM took a HUGE risk in trying to make the business better for EVERYONE including YOU by trying to convince them to lower prices and they got terminated instead. And now AltiQuixWay is FORCED to do something about it BECAUSE OF WHAT TEAM DID. The complaint has officially gone public. So your welcome. Face it, can you show me evidence of lower prices were BEFORE the lawsuit?
“I think transparency and competition would bring the tool prices and profit down below A/Q profit.”
To my knowledge, TEAM has never hidden anything in regards to tools and its profit sharing system. I was told up front how it all worked. But I was also told what TEAM was trying to do with AltiQuixWay to increase profitability of A/Q product for IBO’s and now we will eventually get to do that for ourselves. Also, TEAM plans to make tools even cheaper (the current $6 per CD is not expensive by any means) by creating downloads of the internet so they are CONSTANTLY trying to find ways to make the business better for EVERYONE, unlike AmQuix. It is evident now that AmQuix is merely looking out for itself.
Coincidentally, after TEAM starts their own business with products that are competetively priced, AmQuix will have to change their prices yet AGAIN just to stay competetive with us. So what TEAM is doing will eventually help you and all other ABO’s as well. So once again…
!!!YOU’RE WELCOME!!!
So Tex, what have YOU done lately to help contribute to the lowering of AmQuix prices?
October 31st, 2007 at 11:12 am
Niki #414,
Thanks for again proving to me you’re just as crooked as the tool scams. Good luck finding more suckers to follow you - I’m sure you’ll help them lose as much money as the best of them!
john #415,
Here’s the definition again:
Approximately 66% of all IBOs of record were found to be “active”**
**Based on an independent survey during 2001. “Active” means an IBO attempted to make a retail sale, or presented the Independent Business Ownership Plan, or received bonus money, or attended a company or IBO meeting in the year 2000.
In my experience, the most common method, by far, of qualifying as “Active” under this definition is “receiving bonus money”. In fact, qualifying the other ways is almost always is accompanied by the “receiving bonus money” qualification, in my experience.
Therefore, the 2/3 value is a valid estimate.
The 2005 data on THISBIZNOW says over 370,000 IBOs earned a bonus in 2005. How could they earn a bonus if they weren’t active? —- As stated above and according to the definition in the study, one of the criteria for being “active” is “RECEIVING bonus money”. However, one can “earn” bonus money by being in a stacked leg and not doing anything except allowing your upline to build a leg under you. That isn’t much effort, as you know, and stretches the idea of “earned” bonus money.
Thus, $370 million divided by 370,000 (Active who earned a bonus) = 1,000 per year or $83 per month. However, even if we use your incorrect number of $124 per month, that is a 6% growth over 4 years or 1.5% growth per year. Problem is that inflatiion has risen at double that rate. Thus, even using your incorrect inflated numbers, the average IBO is still worse off in 2005 than he was in 2001. Hard to believe since this is the best business opportunity in the world! —- I already said the amount was “about flat” when accounting for inflation. What you didn’t address is the fact that even if the business doubled in size, the AVERAGE wouldn’t change very much, so trying to use that value is a red herring.
October 31st, 2007 at 11:17 am
john #416,
For IBO’s in less than 2 years, they probably learn quite a bit. The new IBO’s are who the training system is for, primarily. For the rest of us, and noted by others, the training reinforces what is already known. As they say, repetition is the mother of learning.
Olib #417,
8. When the dream is big enough the facts don’t count. Today is the first day of the rest of your life. (Tex had a post somewhere disagreeing with this one; I can tell you that my marriage and family life is at 180 degrees from where it was. The reason is I had a dream focused on it and changed it. The facts were all against me, due to my own fault). —- Ask Orrin and Co. if they think the facts count, such as the facts about the rules.
October 31st, 2007 at 11:33 am
amazed #418,
I agree the tools are useful for keeping your attitude up, and many traditional business people use them for this reason.
The truth is, each of us is responsible for our decisions, but when we are lied to about the amount of profit gained from tools by our upline “teammates” and “business partners”, it makes it a scam.
Is there a “tool scam”? Probably. Who makes it a scam? The people who profit from the “tools” for the wrong reason (making MUCH more money from tools and lying about it, rather than as an aid to teach their IBO’s)!
October 31st, 2007 at 11:33 am
480… I agree completely! You hit the nail right on the head. They will spend money on beer, smoking, chips, cookies, candy, cokes and etc, but Heaven forbid they spend $6.00 each for CD’s or buy a book to improve their life and their families life.
They are missing out on the Blessings that God had stored up for them… Just because they refuse to grow mentally.
October 31st, 2007 at 11:47 am
cmon.people.think #419,
What makes me an “expert” is I use facts. There is plenty of information available regarding the tool scam, but that information has to be acted on to correct the problem.
You are a liar and/or perpetrating your own scam. What a major loser.
October 31st, 2007 at 11:51 am
amazed #420,
The problem with your logic is you don’t recognize this issue is addressed by the rules, and the claims made are common in traditional businesses and protect OUR businesses from being damaged.
Fig #421,
It’s amazing what a bunch of Orrinites buying the book by the case to pimp up the numbers can do for a lying coward, isn’t it?
October 31st, 2007 at 11:55 am
knp #422/4,
Which web site are you talking about? Provide a link, don’t just make a claim.
I for one don’t need to give you a list… the results are proof positive. —- I agree with that, the list of failed IBO’s because of the tool scam is proof positive.
freedom #425,
Don’t you think the upline could train on the rules and changes? Isn’t this part of their responsibility, according to the rules?
October 31st, 2007 at 12:01 pm
freedom #426,
I am suggesting calling Quixtar directly, not forwarding an e-mail to someone else, who may or may not forward it. Speak up, and you will be heard, I can assure you of that.
You raise a good question regarding other contracts, but that doesn’t apply here. I think in most cases it would depend on which one was signed first, but that issue would probably result in favor of Quixtar, if that is the business you represent to prospects, which it is, even under the TEAM marketing plan.
October 31st, 2007 at 12:13 pm
freedom #427,
When this played out I was told the Diamonds were not taking any money right now and they are paying out at 5-deep in two legs. Not much, but they are. When I asked what would happen once the Diamonds started getting paid again they started hemming and hawing. —- I think he was lying about Diamonds not getting paid. The “hemming and hawing” says volumes.
steven utah soon to be former ibo #428,
The “biggest beef”