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October 24th, 2007 @ 8:45 pm ET…

Why we fight, part 1

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After being on the defensive for 20 straight legal attacks, we filed suit yesterday against the corporation that owns TEAM.

We filed suit because the single legal case we brought (and won) in this matter listed Orrin Woodward as a defendant—but Woodward then claimed to have magically disappeared as the manager of TEAM before the case was heard. (A legal trick like that is like pretending Rich and Jay have nothing to do with our company—but never mind. We’ll straighten it out.)

We filed suit because TEAM has had multiple chances to play by the rules in this dispute, but have gambled that they do not have to play by them. They have interfered with non-compete agreements. They have interfered with non-solicitation agreements. They refuse to arbitrate.

But most of all, we are filing suit because TEAM has taken proprietary business information from Quixtar that IBOs could be using right now to build Quixtar businesses.

If you leave your place of work today, you would leave behind your tools and information so that those who remain can carry on the business. You can’t help yourself to your computer, the stapler, the coffeemaker—or the company’s customer list.

That is ethically and morally wrong. It is also legally wrong. And that’s why we filed suit.

Filed by: Corporate Communications

Posted in: Alticor, Amway, Quixtar, Transformation

959 Responses to “Why we fight, part 1” (301 - 400 shown)

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  1. Corporate Communications Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 10:14 pm

    Jason #298 and others with “where’s my post” questions for the moderators:

    We’re doing our best to keep up with the surge of comments. Three of us share moderating duties, and it’s not a full-time job for any of us. So once in a while we arrive to see a 50-comment pile-up in queue (this morning it was 53), are mortified, and clear out the backlog as fast as we can. Safe bet to say that if you don’t see something in 8 hours, resubmit.

    We delete VERY few comments – extra-long posts if we don’t hear back on a request to shorten; foul-mouthed, mean-spirited, topic-free invective; slurs (ZERO patience for those); and spam. Disagreeing with a comment isn’t a reason to delete it; in fact, we enjoy publishing first-timers’ comments that “You’ll never print this” with a sickly smile.

    Hang in there with us, and we’ll do our best to keep up with you. Thanks.
  2. Big Bob Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 10:33 pm

    Quixtar’s “Why” seems quite trivial, offbase and shallow. Sounds like another blind stab in the dark b/c they are reeling back in fear. I hope for there sake that they choose to open there minds and ask if maybe there justifications for there emotional “purposes” are worth pursuing. Put next to the causes that the Team Leadership represents. . . all I can say is WOW!
  3. ks in nc Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 10:39 pm

    I was in for 20 years and got out to find something else–I did find team in late July I got in and sponsored several and then –you anounced the Amway change….. all of my downline who were at my house wanted to quit because of the negative connotation with Amway. One couple looked up the price comparisons and called me to tell me to tear up the check that they had given me. They said they could not retail nor even wholesale the products–I quit and asked for my $ back and my downline quit also because they told me they did not want to get into amway. None of us have received any of our money back.
  4. Utah Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 11:29 pm

    #295 freedom,
    I know after 8/9, Team didn’t cancel things immediately. It was only after a few things happened in court that they did. By the Time of the Kent verdict and clarification, the change was in place. Since then, I have not seen anything about any opens or contacting tools on the Team website, or email or voicemails once the change was made to go generic. Team specifically stated on the website not to disparage Q/A and to follow the rules.

    You may have a rouge leader breaking the rules, I don’t know, but I haven’t seen anything from any mentors or Team. The Louisville “party” was generic leadership training, for home, work, church, whatever, with no new MLM even hinted at or swipes at anyone.

    No one said to leave Q/A. One person of interest did mention a few items of world history that some in the audience felt applied to the current Q/A mess, but even people directly hurt by Q/A were nice.

    I am thinking about 2 or 3 weeks after 8/9, it was obvious that Q/A wasn’t going to take the hint and change direction, that the contacting tools were dropped and the opens. That was on the Team website. The only other two websites I had access didn’t have anything, other than a few cobwebs. They have been cleaned of even those. One with nothing left, and another with access password changed, but after getting through that, nothing of interest and no meetings for the last year.

    I was not happy Chris and Orin filed the CA lawsuit, but the terminations prior and the threatened suspensions after, along with all the lawsuits and the Go Team Go attitude have made me wonder if I want to stay with Q/A even just to buy products. I do know I will never get better leadership training than what Team has. Q/A will never build the people like the system has, or at least they haven’t in the last 16 years. Looking back, I have spent tens of thousands on system, and made hundreds of thousands because of it on my non-related business. I haven’t had a job for 11 years, and that wasn’t from money from the system or Q/A.

    I understand why you might be mad at both sides, but I don’t see Team braking any rules.
  5. Lajinito Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 11:43 pm

    Tex, Check it out. You are the reason some people are resigning (http://forums.freetheibo.info/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=164&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=40#p3870) I’m sure you will take your demented pleasure in that, or join Alticor in the “no it’s not my fault, nothing is” game.
  6. Tex Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 12:05 am

    janedoe #255,

    Since you seem to have all the answers, maybe you can answer these questions for me, with pure fact and not opinions or insults. Please. —- This depends on the nature of the questions.

    If I left Q* today or three months ago or didn’t leave at all, and I turned around and signed up with, oh lets say, AVON, Mary Kay, PartyLite, Lia Sophia, Pampered Chef or any other MLM, how would Q* know? —- They probably wouldn’t, unless your e-mail that you put on this blog identifies who you are, then they may check on you. However, if a large group of IBO’s left, they may at least spot check by checking around, although I’m not sure exactly how they would do that. Perhaps they have some agreements with other MLM’s.

    What if I was involved in another MLM before joining Q* and continued to keep that membership; now I have decided to quit Q*, am I breaking a rule because I am in another MLM? —- You probably would have been breaking the rule when you signed up with Quixtar, if you didn’t drop the other MLM. Do you think this is very common, it sounds more like a rare and theoretical question?

    So, what if I actually signed up with TEAM and their system before I ever signed up with Q*, and I now have left Q*. Since I was in TEAM first and decided to stay with TEAM, am I still breaking a rule? —- I don’t think you actually “sign up” with TEAM, you buy their stuff, and are regarded as their customer by Quixtar. A very profitable customer.

    Thanks —-You’re welcome.
  7. Tex Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 12:20 am

    Anne #258,

    Well put. How much do you make at Quixtar versus tool profit?

    G #264,

    As for your question, Tex was an IBO getting ripped off via the tool scam, before deciding there was no need to feed the upline’s unethical and immoral profit center.

    We now see the results of such self guidance … often right, seldom in doubt.

    By the way, you may have problems with where the tools $$$ go Lone Star, but you also have some serious challenges with relatability. —- How would you know? You have no clue what my persona is away from this blog.

    That’s not the same as tolerance … another issue. —- Do you think the lying cowardly “kingpins” should be tolerated?

    At some point you may come to realize folks are intrigued by the striking resemblance to Pinto Colvig. —- You could only dream of being as successful as Mr Colvig.
  8. Tex Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 12:35 am

    Maxwell Smart #266,

    It seems that Orrin and Chris have moved on. They are parleying their book into a leadership development business, which is not an MLM nor does it compete with a consumable retail business. —- Good for them, where does this leave the rest of you, their loyal followers? Also, I don’t think Quixtar has their pound of flesh from them, so they will probably be a little lighter, especially in the wallet, before they are allowed to completely “move on”.

    Also, I can see why one could be angry being paid to blog. I mean if after slogging through law school and to only work my way up to name calling and baiting unknowing bloggers into stating something that the real attorneys can maybe use — I’d be upset too. —- Who’s upset? This is fun.

    Just as Orrin and Chris have moved on, that is what people should do. They should strive to be a true Independent Business Owner, not like the IBOs who technically are employees of Quixtar/Amway per IRS code. —- We’re not employees, what a stupid statement. Can you tell us which part of the IRS code applies that would make us employees?

    It seems that Quixtar/Amway is trying the oldest trick in the big guy versus little guy legal handbook – make them use up their resources and bury them. —- Bingo. The reason it is the oldest trick is because it works.

    What Quixtar/Amway is trying to get is the exclusive right to anyone ever affiliated with the company. The fact that some of the people affiliated with Quixtar/Amway also chose to be affiliated with other organizations that are related to business and educate their members such as, Team, Worldwide Dream Builders, Mortgage Bankers Association of America, National Association of Securities Dealers, National Medical Association, Michigan Bar Association or otherwise, should not matter to Quixtar/Amway. That is if they believe in the American Way. —- Exclusive right? Anybody ever affiliated with the company? What drugs are you on?

    I mean by definition, others cannot know proprietary information before it is known to the company claiming it as property. In this case, the people being accused had to have known the information prior to the company because they gave the information to the company. Yet an army of staff lawyers can make this absurd argument into a lengthy and very costly battle. —- Just because you knew the information first doesn’t mean it belongs to you. For example, most companies own the patents their employees develop.

    My last thought on this subject, this is the classic fine-a-scapegoat-who-can-be-a-catalyst-to-executing-a-business-strategy ploy. Quixtar/Amway is already competing with its IBOs in the makeup market and in no doubt looking to exit the IBO strategy all together. —- This is obvious to you? That’s funny.

    Yet there are thousands of IBOs who rely on the income they generate, no matter how small, and believed that Quixtar/Amway would continue their current IBO course for generations. They are out of luck. —- Now I’m rolling in the aisles.

    By using Orrin, Quixtar/Amway is creating a pubic relations firestorm, which by their calculations will justify terminating the IBO strategy; thus, they will exit and have no obligations or fear of reprisal from IBOs because “It’s Orrin’s fault.” —- Okay, now I’m almost peeing in my pants.

    So for those who think Quixtar/Amway is acting stupidly, I beg to differ. They are acting self-destructively by design. Oh, and they want to deplete Orrin’s bank account along the way — just because they can. —- Now that last part is mostly correct, but it isn’t just because they can, but because it is the right thing to do.

    The lashing out and the hating have saddened me. I’m sure that some Quixtar/Amway staff blogger will attack me. I don’t hold it against them – it’s their job. Some may even contradict my analysis, because until all the IBOs are gone they are right. I will say this, if Quixtar/Amway does plan to keep IBOs in North America for generations to come, let them put this in a legally binding document. —- Hit the road, you have no concept of reality.

    I just want to get the facts out and give people the lay of the land so they are not blindsided. —- Thanks for the entertainment value. They say it is healthy to have a good laugh every day, and you gave me at least a week’s worth of health benefits.

    Thank you. —- Oh no, thank YOU.
  9. Tex Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 12:43 am

    Rick #269,

    what does Black water Dick Devos and Q all have in common…people that are paid to shut people up..or shut them up..good luck against Ted the sledge Nugent …..Thats is going to really heat it up in michigan.. —- You better keep an eye on your surroundings, they’re out to get you now. What does Ted have to do with this?

    I heard they are going to move to mexico. anyway…its better pricing there..help on the jay factor… —- Great idea. New Platinum trips to Cancun.

    lets see you can have all the legal wins you want,,, Thousands have left already and who knows who is on the list next… is it world wide.. or Jody victor.. or YOU ..Im glad to see alticor is doing such a bang up job taking care of ( THE PEOPLE)!!!! Thanks alot.. —- You’re welcome.

    still alittle confused on how 1 year orrin was the god of Q and then all this.. where does everyone else that is in all this fall.. —- Way ahead of Orrin. Quixtar was hoping he would turn around and start behaving himself, but he didn’t.

    Next thing youll see this soap in a box at walmart it will look like something youve all seen before…mmmmmm naah cant happen right!!! —- Probably not.
  10. Tex Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 12:53 am

    Jason #270,

    Just a few questions so don’t get riled up. I understand your position on tools very clearly, as I am sure everyone else does,but is this truly what this blog is about? Does the answer to every question really end in something about the tools? But, since you like the subject so much here goes. —- Most subjects do have a root cause based on the tool scam, and I have challenged everyone on several occasions to test me, and haven’t had a single taker yet.

    If someone wants to buy tools, is it not their right to do so? What gives anyone the authority to decide what someone else does with their money. I have had a gentleman in my downline for 4 years that has never built the business, but has been on system from day 1, so 1 day I asked him why. He said that when he first started in the business he was depressed most of the time, and his son had told him that anytime he(the son) was feeling down he would listen to about 4 cd’s and that would bring him out of it, so he(the father) tried it and it worked. So he said he would always stay on system because he had determined that even if he never does anything with the business, he would always stay on system becuase he felt like it just made him a happier person. This person does not attend meetings or seminars and I only see him in the same social sense that I saw him in prior to joining the business. We rarely discuss the business unless he is asking me about a CD or book that he enjoyed. Would you take that away from him? —- Why do you use a rare example in attempting to make your point?

    Who is scamming him into buying tools, he is never around anyone to talk him into buying any tools? For that matter who is scamming someone who is going to all the meetings? TEAM has always admitted to making money from the sale of CD’s. (I don’t have the specific amounts so don’t ask) —- Too bad you don’t know, because this is the key question. But if you want to keep your head in the sand or other dark area, you have every right to stay stupid.

    All businesses are in business to make money. To suggest that TEAM is scamming everybody is the same as suggesting that all 70,000 people are stupid, and I have a hard time believing that. TEAM also offers everyone an opportunity to share in the profits from the system. I am not a profit sharing member, but that is my fault for not building it big enough. — They talked you into that, didn’t they? That’s sad, but unfortunately you are far from alone.

    Now I know that you will have decided that I am a brainwashed dipstick, so here is what you can do to “unwash” my brain. Prove your theory. —- That’s easy.

    Here is how. Waiting to build until the “tool scam” is fixed is not valid. You own your own business, which means you can go out and build it the way you think it should be built and prove that you are right. —- Incorrect, I have already stated I do not want to spend my time, energy, and money on something that does not look like it will last over the long term. If you can’t debate this issue with me, you will get nowhere.

    You are not required to participate in any “kingpins” system, so why don’t you go out and build a few teams without a system and prove it can be done. —- I never said I would build without a system, I said without a tool scam. Big difference. Big. Huge. Difference.

    Be a leader, build the example, put your money where your mouth is, even Quixtar can’t agree with your opinions, until you prove it to them. If you can prove that a Q* business can be built without the motivational organizations than you give Q* the strength to go out and take care of the problems you see. —- See above, your assumption is wrong.

    Endless complaining does nothing for you or anyone else. Actions speak louder than words, you need to prove your theory. —- See above again.

    All that said, I do enjoy reading your posts, I think you are very intelligent and you keep yourself well informed, but until you prove your theory with action and results, you will just be someone with an opinion. —- One more time, see above.

    I look forward to your response, and just so everyone knows where I stand, I agree with what TEAM is trying to do, I think that they were trying to make things better for everyone and when they finally felt that they could not get the necessary changes, they took a stand. They could be right or wrong, and I could be right or wrong, but I have choosen to resign from Quixtar and stay with TEAM, and if someone wants to civilly discuss why, than I would be happy to do so. —- I don’t care why you stayed with TEAM, they are a bunch of lying cowards.
  11. Tex Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 12:58 am

    Fig #271,

    “If the products are marketable, why do 92% of IBOs quit within 3 years. If the products were marketable, certainly Quixtar would sell more than 3.4% of its total volume to customers, and certainly fewer people would quit. If the products were marketable, why would IBOs quit, ever. If they were getting what they believe to be a good bargain for their money, they’d never quit. —- Most people quit because they only get help if they participate in the tool scam, then they get scammed, and most leave. Since the upline doesn’t promote selling, and even lies about the requirement to sell, 3.4% is actually quite high.

    And folks, that number is going down, not up. If you’re currently an IBO, as I am, you’ll notice their much anticipated “Simply Nutrilite” product launch. $30 (before shipping) for 12 eight ounce cans of a drink!! Oh my goodness!” —- How would you know which direction that number is going? What do products cost that compete with those products? Why didn’t you list any of the other new products, and tell us which products they compete with, and how much those products cost? Get a clue.
  12. Tex Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 1:06 am

    Fig #272,

    That’s old news and the topic of another thread.

    marc #273,

    Of course I have, you need to read the comment from Anne #258. I feel the same way, and have expressed her feelings as an IQ test for people with that issue. All of the people terminated in the Orrin and Co. “illegal lawsuit” were in Amway, and now they’re too big of babies to go back? Bub-bye.

    Rich #274,

    What part of my answer didn’t make sense or was unreasonable?
  13. Tex Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 1:07 am

    Niki #275,

    Tex you’re all talk and no action, answer my questions- they’re so simple and would add a lot to your (lack of) credibility on this blog. Afraid of a few questions are you? Maybe you’re just too embarrassed by your failure in your business and that is why you feel the need to bully people so. —- Yawn.

    Answer the questions already you big chicken:
    What was your PV last month? And your bonus check? And how long have you been in? And how much was your net income last year? Probably the same as everyone else on this board- lost money. Grow a brain! —- Yawn.
  14. Tex Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 1:13 am

    ibofb #278,

    I think what he means, is he doesn’t realize how biased he is, so the site appears unbiased to him. Sort of like not noticing your own accent, and thinking everyone else sounds funny.

    Maxwell Smart #282,

    Check your shoe. It’s ringing.

    Mick #283,

    You have no class at all.

    How does it feel to be a paid blogger. —- I don’t know, would you like to pay me, so I can tell you?

    Your words are not worth printing. —- Of course not, the moderator said my words are “priceless”

    Oh wait that is right Tex you know all. But guess what I still win because you can never stop what I am doing. Oh by the way have a nice day. —- What are you doing? (Of course, I already know, because I know it all, but I was just seeing if you knew what you were doing so I could confirm that I know it all, or something like that).
  15. Tex Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 1:16 am

    Fuddman #284,

    I think if orrin would have parted in that way it would not matter Q would still be doing something legal to try and slow him down if he admitted he was starting a comp. MLM but that is not the case I really think Q is scared that he does have a great agenda ahead of him and Q does not want a comp. like Orrin and all the other leaders who were huge in the Q biz. —- Yeah, I think you’re right…NOT.

    Also is it true that since 99 that only emrald and above cam out of team?? I heard that was wondering if there was any truth to that?
    —- I think there has been pretty good growth in TEAM since 99, but they had to cheat to get it, so it’s similar to a track star that sets a world record and gets caught for doing drugs.
  16. Hammer Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 1:25 am

    Tex, Interesting post, #113 I believe, about the non-compete clause that is standard in several businesses. There in one point you failed to mention though: those non-compete clauses are given BEFORE the contract is signed. I didn’t receive mine until AFTER I signed.

    Oh and after hearing Quixtar was changing their name back to Amway, I made up my mind then to leave. It didn’t take any coercing for that. Bad reputation leads to no business future. Word-of-mouth is the best, and worst, advertising a business can have.
  17. Tex Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 1:26 am

    MS #285,

    Since I’ve been waiting for the moderator to post my submissions, I had time to read the dribble posted by MS. I’m getting tired of having to correct MS’s irresponsible analysis and the distortion of the facts; nevertheless, I would like to help him out and get him to understand that superficial analysis won’t help him in life. Perhaps someone can direct him to a personal growth system that could help him.

    Orrin and Chris have walked away. It is Quixtar/Amway filing suits against Orrin. Now the 20 other people Quixtar/Amway damaged through their deliberate and malicious actions who have filed suit against the company are separate. Think people have been filing suit against Quixtar/Amway every year since the 1970’s. One might wonder why. —- They may have walked away, but they still have a rope around their necks. Did you not expect a counter-suit? Separate, but related, or at least as a result of Orrin and Co.’s “illegal pyramid” lawsuit. Because A/Q has deep pockets. Lawyering 101.

    Now Tex, you keep bringing up that the suit filed in California by Orrin et al was dismissed “with prejudice”. Now if you know anything about law and know the case, why would you distort this. The case was dismissed because there is an arbitration clause. The “with prejudice” just means that the judge found something to rule on without hearing testimony, i. e.: the arbitration clause. —-Correction, I normally state it in capital lettering, like thus: DISMISSED WITH PREJUDICE. That’s right, the arbitration clause meant it should have never been filed in court and wasted the court’s time and taxpayers’ money in the first place.

    Tex, Quixtar/Amway’s reliance on arbitration reminds me a lot of the situation on Wall Street in the ‘70’s and ‘80’s. The brokerage firms required their brokers to resolve issues through arbitration, too. It took dozens of cases dismissed “with prejudice” before one insightful judge saw that the arbitration process was bias toward the brokerage firms. Only after this ruling could brokers get a fair hearing in court or a mutually agreed upon arbitrator. The arbitration process (similar in structure to Quixtar/Amway’s) was de facto designed to be financial onerous for a broker to engage, and since the arbitration firm is involved at the whim of the brokerage firm, few decisions when against the firms and regardless the broker was financially depleted. —- I actually agree the arbitration process is unfair to the IBO. In fact, the last time the process was examined in a court of law it was determined to be “unconscionable” (Kenny Stewart/Brig Hart), and I think it needs to go back into a court and get ruled “conscionable” before it is applied again. But Orrin’s highly paid lawyer didn’t take this tact, he went with “illegal pyramid” instead.

    If you want arbitration, let both parties agree on the arbitrator. Why won’t Quixtar/Amway agree to that? In short, they control and train their arbitrators and their unscrupulous actions remain hidden. —- There are now provisions to use other arbitrators. Have you read the rules lately? Better plead the 5th on that one.
  18. Tex Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 1:35 am

    MS #286,

    The Maxwell Smart stigma is far worse.

    janedoe #287,

    Amazing, isn’t it? I must be the “teacher’s pet”, wouldn’t you say? Or maybe it has something to do with I SUBMITTED that many posts.

    John #290,

    Good questions. You know where I stand, right?

    GirlPower #291,

    It doesn’t matter, Orrin is going to leave them high and dry, just like Andy Andrews did.

    John #292,

    More good questions, I have a feeling the choice will be soon as well.
  19. Tex Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 1:40 am

    Negative Nancy #293,

    Get away, your breath stinks.

    freedom #295,

    You should forward your e-mails to Quixtar and let them know you will help them with the lawsuits against Orrin and Co.

    There is a 6 month non-competee, which means you can’t join another MLM/network business for 6 months after leaving, and a 2 year non-solicitation, which means you can’t solicit a known IBO for 2 years after you leave Quixtar.
  20. Tex Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 1:46 am

    AEM #296,

    Your breath stinks, too.

    AEM #297,

    If you want to call cheating and breaking rules an advantage, I agree.

    Big Bob #302,

    Quixtar’s “Why” seems quite important, dead on, and perceptive. Sounds like another well researched lawsuit to keep Orrin and Co. reeling back in fear. I hope for Orrin’s sake that he chooses to open his wallet and plead for mercy. Put next to the causes that the Team Leadership represents. . . all I can say is WOW!
  21. Tex Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 1:53 am

    ks in nc #303,

    Sounds like you and your downline failed the IQ test. Bub-bye. You’ll get your money back, Quixtar is a little pre-occupied with other things, like servicing their IBO’s right now. The right priorities, if you ask me.

    Utah #304,

    I saw TEAM “braking” rules with my own eyes and ears, at several Opens and a Seminar.
  22. promiseland Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 2:58 am

    Tex- can you shorten your blogs a bit? I just skip over yours ,so that will make it easier to read everyone elses comments.Its funny because I have talked to a lot of people that do the same thing! LOL!!!!!
  23. Questions asked, facts wanted? Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 3:02 am

    I have seen a lot of blogs trashed because of ‘me’…

    …put everything aside for a minute, and ‘guess’ who I am.

    I have been an Amway distributor for 14 years. The best I have ever done is ‘about’ 10 downline and ‘about’ 1000PV.

    After 12 years, I realized something was wrong. Obviously, without doing all the ‘core’ steps, such as actually getting a 6-4-2 ‘downline’…I can’t be a ‘diamond.’ But, I should be somewhere, right?

    Nope. I’m not. So, I find the ‘internet’. I find that people make money selling ‘tools’.

    It sucks. Here is the problem: either I am not a good ‘upline’, or the ‘system’ doesn’t work. I KNOW that I am an ‘emerging leader’ as far as Amway is concerned. I also KNOW that the system works! So, it doesn’t make any sense at all!

    There MUST be an imbalance: tool profit. Must be! So, here’s what I do:

    After spending more than $30K on tools in 12 years, I spend over $2K more on old tools I bought on e-bay. I KNOW the ‘system’ works – it just cost too much. I have over 12,000 tapes/CDs. I brag that they all say the ‘same thing’ – but they’re worth more than gold!

    Why more than gold? Because they ‘work’ – they are just too expensive. I ‘invent’ a method where I ‘lend’ all the tapes/CDs I have to downline. I think this is genius! I write a letter – with a notary public stamp on it – to Rick DeVos saying that I am trying to ‘reclaim’ the 20% he says tools should cost by making them cost nothing, and this ‘genius’ idea is therefore ‘copyrighted’. Why copyrighted? WOW! You have to ask?

    I expect the ‘kingpins’, once the ‘profit’ has been disclosed, to be forced to provide their ‘tools’ for much lower cost than me! In fact, they might actually do it for free! Guess what? I already ‘invented’ that! It’s ‘copyrighted’! I DEMAND both recognition as an ‘emerging leader’ and ‘big bucks’ from the ‘kingpins’ for using their own material!

    How come you people aren’t on board?

    Any idea why I am so stuck on ‘tool profit’?

    Know who I am? …wait, I have more!
  24. Questions asked, facts wanted? Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 3:35 am

    My LOS joined TEAM. Whatever. Until, I heard about the new ‘stacking’ technique! After 12 years, I might actually get to be a Platinum…because someone other than me is recruiting! The ‘profit’ from ‘tools’ will finally be wide open for me to disclose!

    Trouble is…I told my upline that I am NOT part of their ‘tool’ scam anymore. Guess what? No stacking for me. Oh, I still somehow get downline (14 years of STP – I should be good at it by now!)…but as soon as they get a whiff of me, they flee and request an ‘LOS’ transfer! That means, they still think TEAM is the way to go, or at least Quixtar is viable as long as I am not part of it.

    Well, as long as I ‘make a profit’ buying my own products…I can wait.

    I have another problem: Amway may declare my $35K of tools that I have in my basement ‘unlawful.’ I can’t ‘use’ them to help my downline (no-one). That kills my plans to get ‘a healthy check’ from the ‘cowardly kingpins’ for the idea of using their own training material at a no cost level (see my ‘copyright’ above – where if leaders actually train downline for no or low cost) because I should get a cut because I invented it, and am using it now with their own material!

    Well, that’s not working. So, while it’s not ME that prevents me from having more than a $50/month from my Quixtar business after 12 years…I can’t accept claim for failure. It’s the lying cowardly kingpins. I WILL, on the other hand, accept claim for the number of lawsuits that A/Q has filed on MY BEHALF (I couldn’t tell you about them before…it’s over your head).

    I’ll claim success that other people have done…because I don’t have my own.
  25. Rico (the other, other one) Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 3:47 am

    Its been a few days isn’t it time for a new post. Hurry up and file a new lawsuit or something this blog is getting to long.

    Ohh ya allmost forgot. I am sending you my cell phone and address book. Sorry I didnt realize that they were full of your top secret information. I wouldnt want to get sued.

    I will also be sure to send you names and phone numbers of any prospective IBO’s I meet in the future since that info would have been yours anyway.

    Why does Q/A want to keep picking on all the other kids? What about all the people that havent quit? Maybe you should focus on helping them so you can hut that 12 billion goal? Well maybe the plan is to just sell directly to the public int the states. If so, I understand you dont want to look like a failure. Lets just blame it all on the distributors and fire them all, I mean give them all good cause to quit. Been working good so far!

    My upline diamond quit last month. No it wasnt because of the team dudes. He has been building from the A days. He told me he wont to go through what he went through in the A days again. So I was OK with that because I have lots of good leaders even emeralds who would help me. Heck even got a crown I know personaly above that diamond. Well, I was wrong. I guess they all felt the same? All gone in the last few months for one reason or another.

    So what was I to do? and no I dont want to be stacked somewhere else. Time to move on.

    OK, now I got to wait 6 months looks like if I want to do any other MLM out there? OK I can do that no problem. Anyway I was wondering if I did go and decide to do something else and that person was also a IBO who quit. He cant talk to me for 2 years looks like. Well, good thing it doesnt say anything about me going to them and asking to join.

    (Lost in Space)
  26. ibofightback Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 3:57 am

    Fig, I’d notice that Team affidavit’s showed Team retailing at more like 1.4% - looks like you folk were a pretty significant part of any problem in this area. And if you guys were so much below average, there must have been guys way above average. Did Team ask any of the folk from other groups who were obviously successfully retailing to come in an train Team IBOs how to do it? If not, why not?
  27. Jason Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 4:05 am

    moderator,

    I wasn’t trying to bug the 3 of you, but in my case there were approximately 20 posts made after mine that made it to the blog after my post. Specifically #271 thru #298 were posted and my comment #270 was still in moderation and 6 hours had past. Like I said I am not trying to give you a hard time but given the situation I thought something strange was going on. I can certainly understand that you are busy and I appreciate the good job you are doing. Thank you for all your hard work.
  28. AEM Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 4:18 am

    John 290
    “-Millions more by their tools that are proven
    success systems (Huh?) 96.5% failure rate”?

    Yeah let’s talk numbers. . . First where did this stat come from? And how is ‘failure’ defined here?
    Assuming the stat is legit and failure means you make nothing at all, if a little more than 95% of people are failures then a little less than 5% are not. Which meanns you’d need to build a network of about 30-35 people to not fail. The best part is once you have your 30-35, each one of them can get their own group of 30-35. So even though only 3.5% are successful at any given time each person has a 100% chance to become of the 3.5%.
  29. Negative Nancy Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 9:58 am

    #325 Sorry you are in such a mess and that your upline Diamond walked away from you. That is not integrity..they promised you they would help you and support you not walk away. I am sorry. I hope you can find a great team to be on!
    Tex, I still love you even if you did say my breath stinks….AEM you are awesome too!!! Lets just show the LOVE….there is so much negative talk on this blog……Love you TEX!
  30. Tex Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 10:11 am

    Lajinito #305,

    That link doesn’t work for me, I’ve been “banned” from that Commie site. Post the words here, so I can comment, which as you know I would be happy to do.

    Hammer #316,

    Tex, Interesting post, #113 I believe, about the non-compete clause that is standard in several businesses. There in one point you failed to mention though: those non-compete clauses are given BEFORE the contract is signed. I didn’t receive mine until AFTER I signed. —- Then you should talk to your sponsor, because if TEAM was doing their job in training people, they would have included that little detail, wouldn’t they?

    Oh and after hearing Quixtar was changing their name back to Amway, I made up my mind then to leave. It didn’t take any coercing for that. Bad reputation leads to no business future. Word-of-mouth is the best, and worst, advertising a business can have. —- Good for you. You failed the IQ test. Bub-bye. That’s like saying the Baltimore/Indianapolis Colts suck, they hadn’t been to a Super Bowl for over 35 years. Guess what happened last year? If you’re so stupid you are triggered by a single word, like Amway, I don’t want to waste my time working with you.
  31. Tex Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 10:28 am

    promiseland #322,

    Tex- can you shorten your blogs a bit? I just skip over yours ,so that will make it easier to read everyone elses comments.Its funny because I have talked to a lot of people that do the same thing! LOL!!!!! —- Well here’s a Catch 22 situation. Should I respond to his/her questions? If I do, he has already told me he skips over my posts, so it would be a waste of time. However, he asks questions others may be interested in seeing, so I will go ahead and answer. Plus, the interest of truth dictates I answer. First, most of what I write is in response to others, and I agree I am probably the blogger who responds to most posts here. So, by definition my posts are “long”. Also, others have accused me of being paid to blog, and I wouldn’t want to let them down. Third, if anyone skips over my blogs they are severely misinformed. Fourth, if you do skip over my blogs, it takes very little time to page down.

    Therefore, the answer to the question above is NO. The “lot of people” he is referring to are probably Orrinites, and I have no interest in pleasing them.
  32. janedoe Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 11:22 am

    Tex# 306

    I will not reprint the questions and answers but will refer to them as ?#. So

    ?#1
    For some reason I doubt that there are any agreements with other MLM’s…wouldn’t that somehow be sharing proprietary information, which is against the rules? If the IBO has to follow that rule, doesn’t Q*?

    ?#2
    I just checked the registration form…there is nothing on it that states if we are in another MLM, that we cannot also be in Q*. If that is something hidden somewhere in the “rules”, then maybe Q* should require that all new prospects receive the “rules” before they can sign up. I know of MANY people that are in more than one MLM and were in one when they signed up with Q*.

    ?#3
    Actually, you do “register” with Team, and you buy their leadership materials or you don’t. How Q* “wants to view” those people is irrevelant. If someone was a part of Team for months before becoming an IBO (believe me that has happened), then that person would view themselves as being a part of Team first and Q* second. I guess it is all in how “you” want to view it.
  33. john Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 11:31 am

    AEM (328),

    The number is actually 95.8%. It comes directly from a 2005 Quixtar report. It is reported on the Merchants of Deception website under MOD in the News. Now, Alticor is suing 30 John Doe bloggers for saying what Alticor believes is disparging Quixtar. Why isn’t Alticor suing Scheibeler who posted this Quixtar report? Because the number is true.

    Now to the question of what is failure,

    If a high school only graduates 4% of its students - Failure
    If only 4% of McDonalds franchise owners stayed in business, McDonalds would be a - Failure.
    If you scored only 4% correct answers on a test - Failure.
    If only 4% of businesses in America succeeded, the American economy would be - Failure.

    Thus, the brilliant Amway/Quixtar “best opportunity in the world plus the Kingpin proven systems of success = only 4% lasting even 5 years - Failure
    Any business opportunity or training system that can only retain 4% is a failure.

    And if the IBOAI and Amway/Quixtar really care about you, why haven’t they been honest and told you this? Why do you have to hear it from someone who has been crushed by them? Why if this is true, do you keep hearing from them that this is the best opportunity in the world when 96% fail?
  34. Tex Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 11:40 am

    ibofb #326,

    The answer is obvious. They didn’t care about retailing, because there isn’t enough time to consume massive amounts of tools AND retail. Also, I consider 3.4 and 1.4% to be statistically insignificant.

    Jason #327,

    I have had posts “vaporize” as well, and some of them were, I must humbly say so myself, brilliant. As they say, “stuff” happens. Repost your comment.

    AEM #328,

    I’m guessing a little here, but I think the 95% number comes from the confidential information that was leaked by the TEAM lawsuit. However, it is not an unusual number for MLM. The tool scammers use this issue to their advantage, in several ways.

    First, turnover is desired, because they “front end” load the tools on the new people. After all, everyone knows the new IBO needs tools, right? Well, here they are, for sale in the back of the Seminars. How convenient. Let’s get them all worked up into a frenzy and turn them loose on the tool tables.

    Because of the high turnover, there is very little “corporate knowledge” on the part of the IBO’s. They don’t typically stick around and find out what is going on, they quit and leave, so the scam can continue with “fresh meat”.

    The leaders are careful to hold up the few success stories, rather than examine the overall success/failure rates and net profit for the typical IBO.

    Othe than that, they are pretty good guys and gals.
  35. Tex Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 11:45 am

    Negative Nancy #329,

    #325 Sorry you are in such a mess and that your upline Diamond walked away from you. That is not integrity..they promised you they would help you and support you not walk away. I am sorry. I hope you can find a great team to be on! —- His Diamond (pin) was a wimp. Remember, Orrin and Co. walked away from their groups as well, but they decided to use an “illegal pyramid” lawsuit to entice their downline to quit as well. How do you know their Diamond promised them they would “…help you and support you not walk away”? After all, with all the tool scam money they made, they can afford to walk away, just like Orrin and Co. did.

    I love you too Negative Nancy, I just don’t approve of what and who you believe in. Love you Negative Nancy (just not your actions)!!!
  36. marc Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 12:38 pm

    Tex,

    Yeah, I’m not surprised that you would ignore my previous question (#273). I wouldn’t know how to HONESTLY answer it if I had the same line of thinking as you do.
  37. AEM Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 12:55 pm

    tex 321,
    “I saw TEAM “braking” rules with my own eyes and ears, at several Opens and a Seminar”.

    Tex, either state what rules you saw Team breaking or stop saying you did. You can either list the rule it’s self or you can describe what you saw or heard, but more than just a claim please. You are a man of facts right? Let’s have them.
  38. john Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 1:21 pm

    AEM (#328)

    Here is another thought.

    THISBIZNOW is a Quixtar website.
    Quixtar always uses 2001 income data to show that the average IBO earned $115 per month (gross).

    THISBIZNOW also has the 2005 bonus payments made to IBOs at $370 million.
    THISBIZNOW also shows that there were 370,000 IBOS in 2005 who earned a bonus.

    Thus, $370 million divided by 370,000 IBOs = $1,000 per IBO per year = $83 per month.

    So in 2001 the avg IBO according to Q earned $115 per month and in 2005 the avg IBO earned $83 per month. This is according to Quixtar!

    IBOs, you are going the wrong way. On average you are earning 30% less in 2005 than you did in 2001. And yet, this is the best opportunity in the world and the kingpins have “proven systems of success”.
  39. AEM Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 2:00 pm

    Does anybody reading this blog think that changing the name back to Amway will help their business or anyone’s business grow? If that was enough reason for you to quit, you didn’t fail the IQ test, you passed the awareness test.
    It is not the company’s fault “Amway” has such negative associated with it. It is the fault of all the bumbling IBO’s that did stupid things like invite people over for ‘dinner’ then spring the plan on them, those are idiots that gave it a bad name. From a corporate stand point it makes totally sense to operate globally under one name, and I don’t think the name Amway is despised outside the US as much as it is within. But making that change put a serious hurdle in front of any North American IBO hoping to have a future in this business. At the same time, this could be the opportunity to make the name Amway into something good, and in 20 or 30 years starting in Amway will be just as reasonable a career path (in the eyes of the average person) as doing anything else.
  40. Rick Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 3:19 pm

    Tex,, you must be the smartest guy I know,, where do you live we could all sit around and listen to you… so wise so special. im sure your a treat to have at partys ….
    at 1 pennie a letter your making alot right here… not making any money here now that is funny.. everybody just stop and listen to tex..
  41. AM Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 3:36 pm

    Tex,

    Do you think that the more you repeat yourself, the more people will start to believe you? I actually started counting how many times you have repeated the same thing, but stopped once I reached 150…

    You could sum up all of your posts with a quick Copy & Paste of this generic response, save yourself a lot of typing:

    “Will everybody just pretty please focus on the “tool scam” being perpetrated by the “kingpins” It makes the perfect camouflage for hiding the real issues! If I cant get people to believe me, I might lose my job as the Quixtar Head Janitor!!!”

    I’m thinking about hiring an attorney of my own…I would like to see IP address records of all the posters on this blog and see how many come from Alticor…

    “…But e-guerrillas who won’t own up to being bought and paid for in a commercial dispute so they can end-run a court of law are another matter. We invite them to come on out – and fight in broad daylight….”

    Look forward to seeing MY subpoena :-)

    Who is with me?
  42. Anne Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 3:57 pm

    Tex 307 90% Q/A 10% tools
  43. rico (the other one) Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 4:17 pm

    A book that illustrates the conflict. TEAM leadership is the Starfish and Quixtar the Spider.

    http://www.starfishandthespider.com/

    Sorry if someone has already posted this link.
  44. freedomisking Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 5:00 pm

    forget about it.. it isnt worth talking about it.. tex has all the answers anyway..
  45. john Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 5:44 pm

    AEM (#328),

    I want to share one more thing with you. The 96% dropout rate is also confirmed in the IBOAI vs. Woodward case. In order for you to get 30-35 people who stay, you will have to to get about 800 people to sign up. (4% of 800 is 32). Would you agree that it would be very nice if you could get one out of two you show the plan to to sign up? Thus you will need to show the plan about 1600 times to get your 30-35. That is a lot of friends and family. That is 320 times a year or very close to showing the plan every just about every single day of your life. Take away the nights you spend at weekend functions, opens, and add in the time it takes to listen to CDs & read the book of the month - it is easy to see that your life will pretty much be Amway, Amway, Amway. It is no wonder the IBOAI doesn’t want IBOs to know about the 96% dropout rate. That must be the reason it was suposed to be a “trade secret” kept secret from the people they represent.
  46. freedom Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 8:11 pm

    Utah #304

    It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I don’t think my upline is “rogue” as much as they feel they can continue to build their business and not get caught.

    They are using the term “prelaunch” when they talk to people. And just a week ago I was out and saw someone who quit Quixtar showing a plan and handing team CD’s to either a new prospect or someone who just recently joined his team.

    That is the hard part. I see this stuff going on and you can’t help but question things. I’ve never totally agreed with either side, but my decision isn’t about either, it’s about me and my family and what is best for us. Just keeping up the fun. :0)
  47. Fig Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 8:18 pm

    Another new item up for discussion is….the partner stores. Ladies & Gentlemen, has word gotten out there? Has volume with them already dropped significantly enought for them to start soliciting us directly? We have had a LARGE increase in direct email and catalogs(snail mail) mailed to us in just the past 10 days. I wonder if they will all leave like the IBO/ABO’s did when they hear the compnay is now Amway.
  48. Hammer Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 8:42 pm

    Nope, I’m not so stupid as to be triggered by a single word, but when I try to approach someone about the business, and the first thing out of their mouth is “is it Amway,” that speaks volumes about Amways’ reputation.

    Why would TEAM “train me on that little detail” if I hadn’t signed up? Again, any reputable company would have a no-compete clause INCLUDED IN THE PAPERWORK (CONTRACT) YOU SIGN, not thrown in after the fact. Maybe Amway could make that little correction on THEIR contract?
  49. Ben Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 8:51 pm

    Negative Nancy #329

    Quit being so positive. Not only are you making me sick with your undying and unconditional love for Tex but you’re not living up to your name. Amway definitely is doing pretty much what they’ve always done with their dissidants and they are living up to their name.
  50. john jay franklin Says:
    October 27th, 2007 at 9:45 pm

    You know gang, I usually just skip all posts by Tex because I have several children that occasionally have sissy fits and so I don’t need to read one. However, I happened to read one of his posts by accident (as long as they are, sometimes as I scroll I will unintentionally stop part way through the unintelligent dissertation and pick up a few words) and, correct me if I am wrong, but I thought for sure he wrote that someone should read more and type less. Isn’t that like Bill Clinton saying you should be more faithful to your wife?
    Dear Q, I must admit, I can handle court system, all the crazy lawsuits, the crazy spin this blog does, the insults, the unfounded accusations, the e-mails to my downline saying I did things I did not do, and all the other things you’ve been doing, but don’t you think allowing Tex to type so much borders on torture? This guy is so bitter he can drink vinegar and say “what a finely aged wine”. Where is the intelligent discussion of which you write? He believes that anyone that disagrees with him is a liar, very much like my 4 year old daughter. It can’t be that someone has a different opinion or a different point of view. And the insults, can we please act as if we were adults? I know that would age Tex past his bitter and painful preteens, but lets try shall we? As a whole group, whether it be Q, team, both or neither, lets please have a civil discourse. Who knows, maybe, throught intelligent and civil communications, peoples ideas and beliefs may change, improve, or become stronger.
  51. Utah Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 12:10 am

    Since the original post refers to typical business, Lets look at “Real World”.

    15 years ago, someone I worked who quit and went out on his own. He wanted me to come to, and I said no. He tried to take clients and was successful in taking some. 6 months later he called back to come work for him and I said yes.

    11 years ago, I quit my job and went out on my own. (Non related business to Q/A). There was no non-compete agreement, nor one typical in that profession.

    That being said, I had already put my name in the yellow pages, opened up a checking account for the new business, obtained a small startup loan, and 2 types of liability insurance policies prior to quitting. I gave two weeks notice.

    Based on ethics, I specifically didn’t solicit any clients that the other company had for 6 months after I left. I figured if they couldn’t hang on to them after 6 months of me being gone, they were fair game.

    My last boss followed a 0 month anti-compete and a 0 month anti-raid. Bad feelings.

    I did a 0 month anti-compete and a 6 month anti-raid. Better feelings, even though he didn’t do it.

    Do I think the 6 month, anti-compete and the 2 year anti-raid in Q/A business excessive? Yes. Did I sign that I would abide by it - No. I was on auto-renewal long before they thought of adding the language they have now. I don’t think they even have a BSM agreement on file.

    I would be surprised if the current language would hold up in court, as even banks that change interest rates without asking, do require 30 days notification and an opt out option if you don’t like the new rules.

    If it would hold up in court, time to change the law.
  52. Chan Man Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 9:42 am

    Just Go AmQuix, Just Go!
  53. Chan Man Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 9:53 am

    http://chuckgoetschel.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2007/9/10/3230134.html

    Any Questions? I can’t think of 1 reason to stay with AmQuix….Since we are going back in time, I would expect AmQuix to have us pick up products off the back dock at AmQuix on Spaulding Road and then do product pick ups all over again. I want FREEDOM and it is best described at www.drinkxs.biz
  54. Thunderstruck Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 11:50 am

    AEM #337

    I was with Tex when he saw the “breaking of the rules” by TEAM. They consisted of smiling, good attituds, a winning formula, great tools, and the concept of helping others. These all go against the “Tex System”
  55. freedom Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 12:08 pm

    Utah #351

    That is what will be the most interesting piece as this plays out. I’ll be honest with you, all of my direction came from my upline, not Quixtar. They contacted me, they got me to sign the form, and they were directing me.

    Because my “leaders” did such a good job of “training” me this whole business was about edifying your upline, etc. I never knew anything else. That’s my fault, because I should have educated myself and formed my own opinions. Long story short, looking back, I realize my “leaders” were all about spinning any news in a way that would keep me from actually looking outside them for information.

    Back to the registration: My leaders never told me anything about the registration or what was on it. That was up for me to read. Honestly, I was too excited at the time and didn’t. Now that I have here is what I see:

    AUTOMATIC RENEWAL: Short version, I agree to automatically renew for a year and “further agree to continue to abide by the IBO Rules of Conduct, including the Arbitration Agreement, and all regulations and proceedures outlined in the Business Reference Guide and other official Quixtar literature, AS AMENDED AND PUBLISHED FROM TIME TO TIME.” To me that looks like they can “amend and pulish” on the website and leave it for us to read, kind of like my “leaders” left it for me to read the form. See below for more on this.

    BUSINESS SUPPORT MATERIALS: Basically is says some IBO’s independently do the things they do and make money off it, and the decision to be involved is entirely up to me. What my leaders have done in the past prior to team was say they are not required UNLESS you want to be successful. That no one has had success without them. There has always been pressure put on people who don’t. I’ve always had a problem with that. And, from my experience once we joined the team, the people who were not on the BSM’s, the “big leaders” (Platinum and above) wouldn’t help you at all, because you were not “committed” to their system.

    REGISTRANTS: Basically covers the whole back page of the form including: The rules “may be amended from time to time, and notice of any amendments will be published in official QUIXTAR literature and/or on the QUIXTAR Web site at www.quixtar.com.”

    PROPRIETARY INFORMATION: Basically says we can’t use any of it for any reason other than what is authorized by the Corporation. Here is what I’m wondering…..Since the team and everyone else has IBO’s register with Quixtar, once that person is registered with Quixtar, no matter what else that person registers for or does outside Quixtar, does this agreement make their name and information proprietary?

    The bottom line I keep coming to is this: Alticore/Amway/Quixtar has been in business for a long time. You don’t last as long as they do without making sure your business is covered from times like this. I’m no lawyer, but it sure seems from the things I’ve read the team is going to have to prove THE WAY things are worded and done are illegal or unfair, because everything I read basically says I agree to everything and I WILL NOT use any of the information the corporation istself does not approve of.
  56. John Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 12:31 pm

    According to THISBIZ NOW (A Quixtar website) for FY 2005 there was $370 million paid out in bonuses to over 370,000 IBOs. Does that sound good to you? Think about this. Let’s say the entire $370 million was given to only the top 10% of IBOs. Don’t even count the other 90%. Ten percent of 370,000 is 37,000. So if all the bonus money was paid to only the top 10% it would be $370 million divided by 37,000 which is $10,000 per year or $192 per week. And that is gross! So if you don’t even have to pay a penny to 90% of your distributers and only have to pay the top 10% and all you can come up with is $192 per week? By the time the average top 10% IBO pays for CDs, books, websites, functions, Quixtar catalogs, opens, mileage, etc. - I am convinced the average top 10% IBO is Losing Money! Amway/Quixtar is a twin brother to the kingpin tools scams. Neither puts any money in the pockets of the 90%. Instead they both take it out.
  57. AEM Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 1:14 pm

    John,
    Thank you for making it clear what you meant by failure was dropping out. I thought you might be talking about people who don’t make very much as failures, you’re clarification makes my previous response (to that statistic) moot. The best business in the world should have way more than 5% sticking around for sure. Yes this business is hard very hard to build as it is, will become even harder with the name change to Amway, even harder still with the regulations on depth building.
  58. Tex Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 2:17 pm

    janedoe #333,

    #1. The contract Orrin and the Orrinites have with Quixtar has to meet the 6 month/2 year criteria before any new agreement can be entered into, so there can’t be any new “proprietary information” legally created with other companies. Therefore, there are no restrictions on Quixtar in this area.

    #2. You need to read rule 6.5. I don’t think every rule needs to be placed on the registration form. If this issue is common, and I doubt it is, then perhaps it should be added to the registration form. The rules in general are downplayed by the upline, because it allows them to then break rules without being noticed by their IBO’s. I was even told reading/knowing the rules are a waste of time by upline, a far more serious issue than not having this issue on the registration form.

    #3. Actually, you don’t “register” with Team, according to TEAM’s own testimony in a Texas court from mid-October from the freetheibo web site. You buy their leadership materials or you don’t get support. How Q* “wants to view” those people is revelant, because you sign a contract with Quixtar, not with TEAM. If someone was a part of Team for months before becoming an IBO (believe me that has happened), then that person would view themselves as being a part of Team first and Q* second, except they have no contract with TEAM, they are viewed as a customer of TEAM, again according to TEAM’s own testimony. I don’t guess anything, because it is all in how the law views contracts, not how anyone else wants to view it.
  59. Tex Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 2:32 pm

    john #334,

    The 95.8% number is not the only thing Quixtar is suing for, but nice try to pick one piece and try to make it about the entire lawsuit. You lose.

    Also, this percentage isn’t much different than most other MLM’s, just for different reasons, namely the tool scam.

    marc #337,

    SURPRISE! See #312, and next time check before you accuse me of ignoring your previous question. I answered it HONESTLY quite easily, even though you said you wouldn’t know how to do this. You don’t have the same line of thinking because you lack facts and appear to be not willing to pay attention to the facts, let alone a response I already provided.
  60. Tex Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 2:35 pm

    AEM #338,

    I have listed what I saw several times already, you need to pay more attention. Or are you one of the idiots who skips over my posts and think this makes you better informed? For the umpteenth, I saw during these several Opens and Seminar not a single mentioning of the word Quixtar, either no mention of retailing or such a light treatment you wouldn’t come out with the understanding retailing is required to get downline volume bonus, and Orrin and Chris being given credit for what Quixtar actually does.
  61. Tex Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 2:49 pm

    john #339,

    How do you know the same definitions are being used for these calculations? Perhaps some people were getting paid that didn’t meet the definition of “Active IBO” in 2001. But nice try.

    AEM #340,

    As I have stated before, I am in favor of the name change, because I don’t think they can go back to Amway and survive in the U.S. WITHOUT cleaning up the tool scam. That’s why I’m in favor of the name change, even though it will be a bit more of a challenge, but not insurmountable. That’s what the IQ test is all about.

    It is not the company’s fault “Amway” has such negative associated with it. It is the fault of all the lying cowardly “kingpin” IBO’s that did stupid things like show the A/Q business while secretly making most of their profit from the tools sold to the IBO’s. It is A/Q’s fault for not following up on the 1983 “Directly Speaking” tapes and taking the action Rich said they would take. The TEAM, TIF, and many other crises over the years can all be traced to the tool scam, and A/Q did not do the right thing to shut these scams down. Inviting people over for ‘dinner’ then spring the plan on them, those are also idiots that gave it a bad name, but this is minor compared to the tool scam. From a corporate stand point it makes totally sense (It makes totally sense? That doesn’t make ANY sense!) to operate globally under one name, and I don’t think the name Amway is despised outside the US as much as it is within, but this image can be changed with the tool scam cleanup. Making that change put a minor hurdle in front of any North American IBO hoping to have a future in this business. At the same time, this could be the opportunity to make the name Amway into something good, and in 20 or 30 months starting in Amway will be just as reasonable a career path (in the eyes of the average person) as doing anything else, or as a way to supplement your current income, if that is what is desired.
  62. Tex Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 3:03 pm

    Rick #341,

    Tex,, you must be the smartest guy I know. —- I know a lot of people smarter than me, you must not know very many people.

    Where do you live we could all sit around and listen to you —- You don’t have to know where I live, you just have to read my posts on the internet.

    So wise so special. im sure your a treat to have at partys —- I don’t know about “partys”, but I do enjoy “parties”.

    At 1 pennie a letter your making alot right here —- I don’t know about at 1 “pennie”, but perhaps at 1 “penny” makes more sense. You mixed up penny and parties, perhaps what you really want isn’t a penny party, but a pity party. Boo hoo hoo, let’s all cry for your pity party, you stupid loser.

    Not making any money here now that is funny —- What’s funny is how stupid you can be and are still able to type some words correctly.

    Everybody just stop and listen to tex —- If they did, ALL of the lying cowardly “kingpins” would be GONE.
  63. Tex Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 3:13 pm

    AEM #342,

    Do you think that the more you repeat yourself, the more people will start to believe you? I actually started counting how many times you have repeated the same thing, but stopped once I reached 150 —- You should stop counting, and start comprehending. I repeat myself for the new readers, not for the idiots who can’t accept the tool scam truth.

    You could sum up all of your posts with a quick Copy & Paste of this generic response, save yourself a lot of typing: —- Hi, I’m AEM, I’m stupid.

    However, I do like your analogy, with slight modifications, “Will everybody just focus on the “tool scam” being perpetrated by the “kingpins” If I can’t get people to believe me, the will continue to get scammed and the A/Q business will eventually fail, at least in the U.S.” The Quixtar Head Janitor title is a good analogy, I am the one cleaning up the mess, and because the mess is so HUGE, we could all use an entire staff of “janitors”.

    I’m not thinking about hiring an attorney of my own…I don’t care to see IP address records of all the posters on this blog and see how many come from Alticor…

    Look forward to seeing MY subpoena. —- Unless you are already part of the lawsuit, you probably won’t be subpoena’d. But you are helping your position to look as stupid as it really is.

    Who is with me? —- Crickets chirping in the background.
  64. Tex Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 3:46 pm

    freedom #347,

    You don’t think “rogue” is continuing “to build their business and not get caught”?

    You should talk to Quixtar about these activities, they may or may not be breaking rules. The worst thing is to do nothing, because you don’t want to get involved, are afraid, etc. Quixtar can’t find all the issues, they need our help.

    If you want what is best for you and your family, make sure you get the rule breakers identified and corrected. “Just keeping up the fun. :0)”, is not what this is all about.
  65. Tex Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 3:58 pm

    Fig #348,

    It’s either that or it’s Christmas season, a time when many people get a lot of catalogs. Idiot.

    Hammer #349,

    Maybe they ask if it is Amway because you are wearing the same silly smile Orrin has on his face. When people ask, you don’t owe them an answer right away. You should first ask what they know about Amway, or ask them why they said that, then explain how Amway has changed. This will be a great lead-in to explaining Amway (finally) got rid of the tool scam, so the whole business model has changed in favor of the new IBO being able to make a net profit much sooner, and no longer having a bait and switch business, as it is now.

    It would be quite a burden to require you to read every rule, although that is part of what you should do as a part of your signup process. The real answer is because they don’t want you to read ANY of the rules, because then you would know retailing is required to earn the downline volume bonus, and they don’t want you to know that.
  66. john Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 6:38 pm

    Tex (#359, #361),

    You are absolutely right, the 95.8% failure rate is not the only thing Quixtar is suing to keep secret. They are also suing to keep the McKinsey report (that shows their prices don’t compete) secret; also their 3.4% retail rate which basically says they are an internal comsumption model) among other things. Oh yeah, they are also suing because they are afraid of someone competing with them.
    On your second point, we live in the age of computers & calculators. Furthermore, Quixtar is an ecommerce bsuiness. Why in the world would a big marvelous business in 2007 still be using statistics from 2001? Wy Tex? Because since that time, IBOs have consistently earned less and less per IBO. Honestly, the best a company can do is provide statistics that are 6 years old! So let me interest you in my business - here I’ll be right up front with you and tell you what we did 6 years ago! Tex, you lose.
  67. Thunderstruck Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 7:03 pm

    Tex #365

    Yea, that’s right. Explain the “new” Amway. “Hey , get in a business that calls you ‘their property ‘ and ‘cattle’, they will spy on you like its the cold war, they will kick you out whenever they feel it is appropriate, they will threaten you with emails, they won’t let you go to ANY event unless it is approved first, and , oh yea, they own you.”

    I got asked the Amway question the other night and when I said “no” he said “Thank God”.

    Also like you response that “When people ask, you don’t owe them an answer right away:, You friggin hypocrite!!! For months you would spout how TEAM is so awful because Quixtar wasn’t mentioned in meetings. Dude, you are the most sorry piece of ‘work’ I’ve ever seen.
  68. Brad Obert Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 7:13 pm

    John #356,

    Your math is flawed.
    How many IBO’s in your group to qualify for Platinum?
    Now do your math using that figure.
    There are no Platinums with 9 people in their group. So your 10% is way too high. Try 1%.
    You say there were 370,000 IBO’s. We’ll use your numbers.
    1% of 370,000 is 3,700
    370,000,000/3700 = $100,000

    I bet this is closer. Although some of the 99 in a Platinums group probably make money, the majority would be in the Platinum or above bonuses available.

    Average IBO doing 50PV; Platinum needs 150 IBO’s. That drops your rate to less than 1%.

    What is the average IBO pv in your group? IS your average downline IBO doing 75pv?

    Your math assumes equal pv and pin levels. Look at the plan again.

    You could earn a ton, just do 7500 without registering anyone. Retail it all. hehe
  69. Brad Obert Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 7:14 pm

    This is even without tool bonuses, hehe.
  70. Tex Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 8:18 pm

    Ben #350,

    Don’t be too concerned, Negative Nancy is not being honest, she has already proven she has earned and lived down to the Negative Nancy name. Amway definitely is doing pretty much what they’ve always done with their rule breakers, and have given them plenty of time to correct themselves, then terminated them.

    john #351,

    Not even close to your Bill Clinton example, because I actually read the other posts, which you have admitted you don’t do.

    You think my posts border on torture? One of the moderators find my posts so funny they almost blew their drink through their nose.

    If you want to have a more civil discussion, I’m all for it, but you have to commit to criticizing the other bloggers when they get nasty as much as me do if I slip up. If you can’t make that commitment, the deal is off. What say you?
  71. Tex Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 8:23 pm

    Utah #352,

    It doesn’t matter what your other experiences are, the 6 month/2 year rules are not excessive with respect to many other businesses, and would probably be upheld in court. You wouldn’t get to court in the first place, you signed up for an arbitration process.

    The auto renewal includes a statement that you acknowledge changes can be made from time to time and you didn’t bother to read the changes, so you lose again.
  72. SPARTAN Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 8:31 pm

    Check out this great video!
    http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=BostonTeaBerry

    It was a great convention!! Just to see thousands upon thousands of IBO’s, cheering, happy to be able to pratice there american right to assemble, and speak. You should have been there.

    The ’spys’ stuck out like a sore thumb. It was kinda funny!! KEEP TRYIN’!!
  73. SPARTAN Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 8:32 pm

    Wow, looks like this has become the ‘TEX’ blog
  74. Tex Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 8:39 pm

    Chan Man #353/4,

    Amquix doesn’t have to go, you’re already GONE.

    Chuck Goetschel is a lying coward. He claims A/Q told him (and Ron Simmons repeated the same lie) not to disclose tool income, which is false. A/Q told them not to display the wealth that came from the tool scam if they decide not discuss how much tool scam money is made, because this misleads the IBO’s. The upline does a poor job of hiding their tool scam lifestyle, they just can’t help themselves. I don’t even agree with this approach, as it doesn’t make it ethical to have a tool scam just because you decide to hide it from your “business partners” and “teammates”.
  75. Tex Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 8:55 pm

    Thunderdunce #355,

    You’re an idiot. You have to get past the “smiling, good attitudes, a winning formula (for the tool scam artists), great tools, and the concept of helping others”, and examine the tool scam going on.

    These all are consistent with the “Tex System”, except we don’t have the tool scam.

    freedom #356,

    That is what will be the most interesting piece as this plays out. I’ll be honest with you, all of my direction came from my upline, not Quixtar. They contacted me, they got me to sign the form, and they were directing me. —- Same thing happened to me.

    Because my “leaders” did such a good job of “training” me this whole business was about edifying your upline, etc. I never knew anything else. That’s my fault, because I should have educated myself and formed my own opinions. Long story short, looking back, I realize my “leaders” were all about spinning any news in a way that would keep me from actually looking outside them for information. —- Ditto.

    Back to the registration: My leaders never told me anything about the registration or what was on it. That was up for me to read. Honestly, I was too excited at the time and didn’t. Now that I have here is what I see: —- Same here.

    AUTOMATIC RENEWAL: Short version, I agree to automatically renew for a year and “further agree to continue to abide by the IBO Rules of Conduct, including the Arbitration Agreement, and all regulations and proceedures outlined in the Business Reference Guide and other official Quixtar literature, AS AMENDED AND PUBLISHED FROM TIME TO TIME.” To me that looks like they can “amend and pulish” on the website and leave it for us to read, kind of like my “leaders” left it for me to read the form. See below for more on this. —- Yes, in fact our “leaders” could have fulfilled their responsibility to do the first part of “train and motivate” us by educating us on the rules. They could have easily done this within the first month, and Quixtar could have a rule that exempts any former IBO who resigns within a month.

    BUSINESS SUPPORT MATERIALS: Basically is says some IBO’s independently do the things they do and make money off it, and the decision to be involved is entirely up to me. What my leaders have done in the past prior to team was say they are not required UNLESS you want to be successful. That no one has had success without them. There has always been pressure put on people who don’t. I’ve always had a problem with that. And, from my experience once we joined the team, the people who were not on the BSM’s, the “big leaders” (Platinum and above) wouldn’t help you at all, because you were not “committed” to their system. —- I experienced this personally, when we went off standing order.

    REGISTRANTS: Basically covers the whole back page of the form including: The rules “may be amended from time to time, and notice of any amendments will be published in official QUIXTAR literature and/or on the QUIXTAR Web site at www.quixtar.com.” —- Yep.

    PROPRIETARY INFORMATION: Basically says we can’t use any of it for any reason other than what is authorized by the Corporation. Here is what I’m wondering…..Since the team and everyone else has IBO’s register with Quixtar, once that person is registered with Quixtar, no matter what else that person registers for or does outside Quixtar, does this agreement make their name and information proprietary? —- Not sure what you’re asking, can you restate the question?

    The bottom line I keep coming to is this: Alticore/Amway/Quixtar has been in business for a long time. You don’t last as long as they do without making sure your business is covered from times like this. I’m no lawyer, but it sure seems from the things I’ve read the team is going to have to prove THE WAY things are worded and done are illegal or unfair, because everything I read basically says I agree to everything and I WILL NOT use any of the information the corporation istself does not approve of. —- Bingo.
  76. Tex Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 9:10 pm

    John #357,

    If you didn’t have the tool scam, the overhead would be a fraction of what it is. At that point, the net profit would be much closer to the gross profit shown in the plan if it weren’t for the tool scam.

    AEM #358,

    The statistic is similar to other MLM businesses, and isn’t a lot different than traditional business failure percentages. Many traditional businesses “survive” (business exists, but is not making money) to five years only because the owner put so much money into the business to get it and keep it going, it is much easier to walk away from an MLM business where the capital investment is much less.
  77. Negative Nancy Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 9:35 pm

    Thanks Ben. I liked your message! I agree with you about Amway/Scamway…..

    Tex, still love you where you at. Oh, back to the bad breath thing…I actually have perfect teeth according to my dentist..she says only a handful of her patients have never had a cavitiy…I am one of them! I brush 2 or 3 times a day…she said many people have a hard time brushing 2 or 3 times a week..SICK! Are you one of them? I hope not…Who out there brushes their teeth more than 3 times a week?
  78. John Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 10:56 pm

    Tex,
    You say that without the tools expenses, overhead would be less and net profit would more. I am glad to agree with you. However, I am afraid Quixtar doesn’t agree with us. I have very personally heard Quixtar representatives (including Vanandel and Devos) continually lavish praise on the Kingpins and their systems. At FED & major functions, the Q reps are always saying what wonderful leaders WWDB, Britt, Yeager etc. are. Look at Achieve magazine (a Quixtar publication) that lavishes the wonderful and fantastic leadership of the kingpin scammers. Sorry Tex, but Quixtar and the kingpin scammers are symbiotic twins who are totally dependent on each other. And who do they hurt, young college kids, single moms and struggling families. If Quixtar agreed with you, they would do to Britt, Yeager and WWDB what they have done to Team. So Tex, you and I agree on the tools scam. But Quixtar has allowed it to go on and on and on. Thus Quixtar is just as guilty.
  79. John Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 11:00 pm

    Brad Obert (368)

    I agree with you that 99% of IBOs lose money. I was simply making the point that if only 10% of IBOS received all of Quixtar’s bonus money, they would only earn $192 a week before expenses. By the way, the 370,000 number comes directly from Quixtar’s website THISBIZNOW. Also,if 98.5 of IBOs drop out in the first 5 years, then you will have to sign 800 people up in order to have 32 in your downline 5 years from now. I wonder how many plans you will have to show to get 800 to sign up.
  80. Rich Says:
    October 28th, 2007 at 11:12 pm

    Tex #312

    Well lets see; to begin with, you spoke for the corporation stating what they will or won’t do (only someone with “power” in the corporation could do that), you advocate doing something that Quixtar has proven lately that they are going after anyone and everyone that does ANYTHING that they consider against them (anything that does not benefit them is against them, based on their actions). They will willingly attack anyone on the internet that says something bad against them in a blog and try to justify it by saying that it is that big bad Orrin that is making these people do these things.

    In other words, Alticor/Quixtar is proving themselves without any doubt at all that they have become a “loose cannon” that has come unglued which is a shame considering the great history of that company that consistently proven themselves to be a company that is for the “American Way” (See a previous post about why I WILL NOT call them Amway EVER again). A company that regardless of any accusations, proved themselves to be men of integrity and outstanding character and now have begun proving that even people like that can turn and become the exact opposite of what they have stood for since 1959. No matter how this may turn out, Alticor/Quixtar will find that out, hopefully before it is too late and then it can never be reversed no matter how hard they try even if they cared to try. This is an end to an honorable company filled with integrity, honesty, caring and character. The company will still be there but this is the dawn of them creating a alter legacy for the company from this day forward! It actually is almost enough to make a person cry for the death of this integrity and character disappearance!!!
  81. Tex Says: