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October 24th, 2007 @ 8:45 pm ET…

Why we fight, part 1

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After being on the defensive for 20 straight legal attacks, we filed suit yesterday against the corporation that owns TEAM.

We filed suit because the single legal case we brought (and won) in this matter listed Orrin Woodward as a defendant—but Woodward then claimed to have magically disappeared as the manager of TEAM before the case was heard. (A legal trick like that is like pretending Rich and Jay have nothing to do with our company—but never mind. We’ll straighten it out.)

We filed suit because TEAM has had multiple chances to play by the rules in this dispute, but have gambled that they do not have to play by them. They have interfered with non-compete agreements. They have interfered with non-solicitation agreements. They refuse to arbitrate.

But most of all, we are filing suit because TEAM has taken proprietary business information from Quixtar that IBOs could be using right now to build Quixtar businesses.

If you leave your place of work today, you would leave behind your tools and information so that those who remain can carry on the business. You can’t help yourself to your computer, the stapler, the coffeemaker—or the company’s customer list.

That is ethically and morally wrong. It is also legally wrong. And that’s why we filed suit.

Filed by: Corporate Communications

Posted in: Alticor, Amway, Quixtar, Transformation

959 Responses to “Why we fight, part 1” (201 - 300 shown)

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  1. Rich Says:
    October 25th, 2007 at 11:42 pm

    Another question for the Quixtar people.

    If you sponsor your mother or your sister or your daughter or such and you decide to move on to another business opportunity… If you want to share this new opporunity with them, will Quixtar say “sure, go ahead with our blessing”? Or will they say “NO WAY!!! We OWN your mother, your sister and/or your daughter!!!”? To look at it logically, there is only two ways to call it what it is: 1. Are they slaves, or 2. does the corporation consider other kinds of property ……..

    (I wish I could say it a different way for it to sound but I am only doing it to make a point. There is NO ACCUSATION OR INTIMATION AGAINST ANYONE INTENDED), however, it still brings up the question, Does anyone want their families to be considered either one of them?
  2. ben Says:
    October 25th, 2007 at 11:56 pm

    bridgette 35

    we are all TEAM.

    One TEAM Nation under God with liberty and justice for all!!!!!
  3. Fig Says:
    October 25th, 2007 at 11:57 pm

    Sounds like we found a new “Scam”….the legal department of Quixtar “scam”. The more legal troubles they keep their company in, the greater the job insurance for the legal department. Meanwhile, the customer service departments and distribution center employees are just waiting to hear when their lay off time will begin. Pretty good “scam” in a state that has one of the worst economies in the country. I feel so sorry for all the IBO’s out there trying to build. It must be so frustrating out there trying to convince someone that this is a good “business opportunity”. One google search and they find a huge hornet’s nest.
  4. FR aka Warrior Princess in Az Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 12:00 am

    ok Moderator…..even though Tex does some very lengthy ones and one from Freedom recently was rather lengthy…..

    Notice 2 others of mine were not posted at all. I think I have a right to confront Tex and his insulting and uncalled remarks and name calling to me as well as all others he does this to on this site w/o any repercussion.

    So, I’ll do as Tex does, how I hate that, but I’ll do it in parts, even though I see it yet on the site, I’ll do it all again in parts so you all can read it thru easier starting with the 1st one that for some reason you guys didn’t like, or I’ll give benefit of doubt, a computer glitch.

    Here goes….
    Part 1
    Hi there y’all (this for Tex whoever he/she is)

    Just to let you know Tex, I did read your insults, lies, and downright ridiculous insinuations, remarks, yada yada yada…..

    I too, would like to know who the likes of who you are and who appointed you GOD.

    My husband & I were at Louisville. The most awesome Leadership Conference ever attended. Tex and the rest of you bloggers against TEAM could have stood to have attended to learn some respect, attitude, consideration, kindness and decency of others. All you all know is how to insult people. Tex comes across as an arrogant egotistical (I’m trying to be nice pastor) blowhard who doesn’t know which end is up.

    Approx 25,000+ attended the weekend. Freedom Hall holds 20,000 and it was packed - another building was opened up to hold the rest of the people in attendance and it was just about packed.

    All the speakers, especially Orrin 2 speeches/teachings hit the ball right out of the park - way out. It was Tremendous! All the speakers were courteous, gracious, caring individuals who still, through all the garbage handed them over the past couple months, gave their hearts to everyone in attendance. Don’t get sarcastic either Tex. If you have a heart, maybe you’ll get the clue.

    …..go to part 2
  5. freedom Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 12:01 am

    5caballeros#198

    I agree, but I think Orrin started something HE should have just walked away from.

    Orrin has said in many different ways and with many different analogies over the years, if you come at me, if you attack me, I’m going to defend myself and fight back.

    None of us know what happened in that meeting except the Diamonds and Quixtar people that were there. We can argue, but it’s all speculation.

    None of that matters. What I know as fact, is that after the meeting, on the same day, Orrin filed a lawsuit against Quixtar. And not just any lawsuit, but one that got thrown out WITH PREJUDICE.

    Now, if you are Quixtar, and you also share Orrin’s you attack me I will fight back attitude, what are you going to do? Just say go away? Of fight back?

    The question I come back to is this, if Orrin truly walked into the meeting trying to help IBO’s, never made a threat, never threatened Quixtar or did anything wrong, and at the end said, “I’m sorry you feel that way. I resign effective immediately. I will wait my six months and at the end will start my own MLM. I thank you for the years of service, but I can no longer in good conscience build this business.”

    Would any of us be discussing anything???????

    Would Orrin have to contact anyone? Or would all the team IBO’s, with no influence from Orrin, quit anyway? If the only team information you could get was a statement on the team website that said, “We appreciate our affiliation with Quixtar throughout the years, but the team site will be on hold until February 9, 2008″ wouldn’t all the free thinking team people know exactly what is going on and quit anyway?

    So what did Orrin’s lawsuit do other than to push Quixtar into a corner that Orrin himself has said many times he would fight his way out of?

    Maybe Orrin should have said “good bye and good riddance and best of luck to you.”
  6. FR aka Warrior Princess in Az Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 12:01 am

    Now for part 2…
    People of integrity always stand firm and come out ahead shining above all others. I feel sorry for some of you who are still deceived by Q. Amway many years started out great and full of integrity. It got lost somewhere along the way…..someone got greedy and forgot what the business was all about. What they also forgot was that people are loyal to people and their character, integrity, principles, credibility, honor, NOT products. Just for you TeX, I happen to love the Q products and vitamins. What we’ve decided is we don’t want to purchase any longer from a corporation who lies, continues on with childish fights, sneaks in non sense non compete rules and changes the ‘plan’, foregoes the reason for the IBOAI, ignores the wishes and suggestions of all their IBOs, changes what was set up for ‘changing lines of sponsorships’ to limiting and shackling of Independent Business Owners who choose to leave the Corporation, not just a line of sponsorship. I’ve watched the prices, the comparisons, have had my own issues and discussions with Q regarding prices going up only to be ignored; Vitamins kept going up in price, while PV stayed the same; BV may have gone up in conjunction with price, but it took one a whole lot more money to get to the same pv bracket it took less money to do years ago before 1999 Quixtar. I was good at helping people ‘reach’ their brackets. Could help people get their 100 pts for way under $200 - sometimes close to $150 and that included the tax and shipping. Nowadays, there is no way one can get to a bracket of 100 pv without costing them $240+. Formucare products mfg for Access Business Group come from the same mfg that supplies other Vendors for a whole lot less. I just purchased 240 tabs of Ranitadine for $6.00 from the same people who provide bottle of 30 tabs for Access Business Group - only ABG sells it for apaprox $7. You figure it out. When we sold or carried a particular litter also carried by Petsmart, Q sold it for twice the money - 30lb bag for $11.99 Petsmart; 2/15 lb bags for $30. Q tried to say it was 2 different items. It wasn’t!
    cont’d to part 3
  7. ben Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 12:02 am

    tex 74

    what reputatoin?

    You maen the one we hvae all been tyring our hradest to ovrecome for the psat yaers but cnat becuase poeple go onlnie and fnid out the turth befroe we can even sgin tehm up?
  8. FR aka Warrior Princess in Az Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 12:02 am

    part 3
    Paper products, go figure it out. Paper products are high, but when you add tax and shipping and then special shipping it really get costly. Now get this one and see if you can figure it out. Q has their own papermill. They are able to produce their own paper products. They printed the Speigel catalog few years back. They boasted about it. So why do they charge everyone an arm and a leg for paper products they can produce on their own.
    We’ve been to the Nutrilite factory. cleanest and most impressive building facility I’ve ever seen. Maybe Tex works for Q and that is why he is able to say all he says, and insult anyone he chooses without any interruption from the blog administrator here.
    Sorry, for getting long, probably won’t be seen here,. I just can’t stand idiocy running rampant and taking so many innocent people with it.
    TEAM is just what it is - a Leadership Development source providing educational/motivational material for all and any who desire to learn how to be a better person and pass that learning on to others as in the movie ‘Pay it Forward’. Product oriented people will never get it. So I have a life to live vs being controlled and taken away from better things in life. this will be the last you hear from me so all of you please be safe, take heart, listen with an open mind and heart, let your ‘yes’ be ‘yes’ and your ‘no’ be ‘no’ - this is biblical - may be good idea to read it unless you consider that part of a ‘tool’ scam.
    I’m sure you want your surgeons, dentists, contractors, accountants, brokers, etc. who need ‘tools’ to utilize their ‘tool’s whether they be books, schooling, conferences, seminars, cds, dvds, etc., so they can provide you the best possible service available. But, maybe you consider all their ‘tools’ a scam for them as well.
    God Bless and Let Freedom Ring!
    Francine R. in Glendale, Az.
  9. FR aka Warrior Princess in Az Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 12:07 am

    Apparently there was a glitch - this was the 2nd one that that was shorter…..

    Paper products, go figure it out. Paper products are high, but when you add tax and shipping and then special shipping it really get costly. Now get this one and see if you can figure it out. Q has their own papermill. They are able to produce their own paper products. They printed the Speigel catalog few years back. They boasted about it. So why do they charge everyone an arm and a leg for paper products they can produce on their own.

    We’ve been to the Nutrilite factory. cleanest and most impressive building facility I’ve ever seen. Maybe Tex works for Q and that is why he is able to say all he says, and insult anyone he chooses without any interruption from the blog administrator here.
    Sorry, for getting long, probably won’t be seen here,. I just can’t stand idiocy running rampant and taking so many innocent people with it.
    TEAM is just what it is - a Leadership Development source providing educational/motivational material for all and any who desire to learn how to be a better person and pass that learning on to others as in the movie ‘Pay it Forward’. Product oriented people will never get it. So I have a life to live vs being controlled and taken away from better things in life. this will be the last you hear from me so all of you please be safe, take heart, listen with an open mind and heart, let your ‘yes’ be ‘yes’ and your ‘no’ be ‘no’ - this is biblical - may be good idea to read it unless you consider that part of a ‘tool’ scam.
    I’m sure you want your surgeons, dentists, contractors, accountants, brokers, etc. who need ‘tools’ to utilize their ‘tool’s whether they be books, schooling, conferences, seminars, cds, dvds, etc., so they can provide you the best possible service available. But, maybe you consider all their ‘tools’ a scam for them as well.

    God Bless and Let Freedom Ring!
    Francine R. in Glendale, Az.
  10. FR aka Warrior Princess in Az Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 12:08 am

    ok moderator~thank you for letting me resubmit
    Part 1
    I received a very disparaging email from Q against TEAM and was threatened that I/we would be possibly in violation of something if we continued to follow TEAM. (think Q has things a bit turned around - they better look in the mirror)
    Q was court ordered to send out an apology to all IBOs - this never happened. In fact, we never did receive an email from them or letter re: our registration, even though we emailed it, faxed it and then sent it Certified Mail. Took over 2 wks to receive the signed green card back from Q. We were kicked out of Q site though only about a week after we faxed/emailed our resignation in.
    One has to have access Q by the IBO # and password; once resigned, one no longer has access, so, how does Q keep referring to TEAM keeps using the LOS to do meetings, functions, etc. yada yada…..
    Meetings around the country stopped shortly after the Resignations/Terminations of Aug 9. There are no Tuesday meetings. What TEAM leaders, leaders on the IBOAI requested was an amiable separation if they all could not come to some sort of agreement on the name change to Amway and lowering of the prices to be more competitive in the marketplace. Q refused to do any of this, they ignored the IBOAI vote against the Amway name being brought back; they even finally agreed that TEAM (Orrin/Chris) did not have an MLM ready to go and that TEAM in of itself is not an MLM. Did they forget that part?
    If there is an MLM business TEAM is doing, we are certainly unaware of it. We know nothing of any MLM business so I do not know what Q keeps referring to over and over again in the lawsuit because there is no MLM, no products or services whereby we can make any money. There is and never has been any type of new business talked about, promoted, or even hinted at. More lies from Q.
    cont’d~~~
  11. FR aka Warrior Princess in Az Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 12:10 am

    cont’d from pt 1
    Part 2
    The BDS held and the Louisville Conference deal with nothing but Leadership principles and skills in helping one lead a better life and preparing oneself for better things, whatever they may be.
    Everyone is following the Rule 6 to the ‘T’, no ifs, buts, or whatevers.
    No one was coerced, encouraged, and all the other verbs Q uses in its silly lawsuit to Resign from Q and/or stop their autorenewal. We are all Extremely Loyal to our Leaders; something Q still doesn’t understand or comprehend. We all made a choice on our own. Please give us all that much credit that we all have our own brains and minds and can and do think for ourselves and do not follow a carrot on a stick just for the fun of it because we are told to do or else.
    Talk about money hungry. TEAM never, NEVER in any lawsuit they brought in defending themselves asked for monetary damages. They and all of us just want to be left alone by Q and never be bothered by them again. They are extremely unprofessional, unbusinesslike, unless one calls what they’re doing (cutthroat tactics) businesslike; money hungry, guess I better stop - appears like they can say all the disparaging remarks they wish against all of us but don’t dare say anything against them - they’ll sue.
    Q, however on the other hand, is asking for all sorts of monetary damages - in fact everything they are asking for is absurd! Some of may even border on being unconstitutional. What, they’re trying to recoup all they’ve lost so far. Don’t they even realize or read enough of their own blogs that IBOs are leaving Q strictly based on the recent behavior and how they themselves are damaging themselves - they’re cutting off their own noses to spite their face, as the saying goes.
    Don’t mean to be long, but when you have 20 pages of jibberish to respond to, it takes a while and even then it’s hard.
    Pricing? Q even agreed their prices were getting high and they would work on doing something about it but never did, not here in the good ole US of A. I’ve been emailing Q for quite a few years about high priced items. They ignored them.
    If Q doesn’t think they’re high priced, then why did they lower prices in the UK after the UK equivalent to our FTC went after them.
    cont’d in pt 3
  12. Tex Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 12:10 am

    Niki #175,

    I’m not trying to satisfy you, I am providing responses to your questions. You haven’t stated a single instance where my logic is flawed. I may be a pawn, but you’ve just been put in checkmate, loser.

    Because of the tool scam, A/Q and the lying cowardly “kingpins” make most of the money, and most IBO’s lose money. That’s why the tool scam needs to be dismantled. It has been with the DTI action in the UK and TEAM has shined a recent and bright light of the nature of the tool scam. Put me down all you want, we’re making progress, despite losers like you who can’t see the end game. Lead, follow, or get the “heck” out of the way, loser.
  13. FR aka Warrior Princess in Az Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 12:12 am

    cont’d from pt3
    Part 4
    Does Q even remember what Free Enterprise is or what it means. That competition is a good thing. What was the book one of their fathers put out ‘Compassionate Capitalism’ Free Enterprise, being an Entrepreneur is what true business ownership is all about. What Q wants is good little employees doing their bidding. Sorry Q, you are not what I/we started in almost 18 yrs ago. Not even close.
    Well, my last 2 posts are under advisement - see if they’ll be allowed to be posted and then especially this one.

    Sorry Q, all these lawsuits and untruthful allegations are just making all of angrier and angrier and even the people who may have stood behind you are now getting upset and discouraged by you.
    3 days in Louisville, never once heard a disparaging remark re: Quixtar. Since it was not a Quixtar event, and probably majority of those of there have Resigned and no longer IBOs, and not part of Quixtar any longer, Quixtar and its products had no place there in a leadership training and education and we’re no longer associated with Quixtar.

    Books we purchased are books one can buy at any book store and for the same price; don’t think there is any law of any type against selling wearable items with one’s logo; CDs and DVDs that are all about leadership, relationships, history, personalities, behaviors, information on how to become a better person, etc.

    Funny how all this has been done for many years with Q’s approval and now it’s not. It was even approved under other IBO organizations and 3rd party BSMs are still approved and used by IBO organizations still associated with Q with no problem.

    The plan that has been shown by TEAM and other organizations has been the same plan with slight variations on best way to build security, nonetheless, the same plan that has been shown for almost 18 yrs. A plan/concept that brought in an abundance of IBOs who are/were part of TEAM and other organizational names with no problem. All of a sudden, all these same concepts, way of doing business, plan, BSMs, are all now part of lawsuits instigated by Q. I just don’t get it and neither does thousands of others, apparently.

    We’re all just very baffled by this onslaught of viciousness and attacks including personal attacks that are uncalled for.

    None of what is in that lawsuit is happening. Not from where we are. Not from what we saw and listened to at Louisville, or any BDS since Aug 9, or from any TEAM member, email or voicemail. In fact, emails and voicemails have been nil, nothing - all quiet.

    Good nite and God bless…..
WP in AZ
    All resubmitted…..I can’t believe this blog went from 56 to 400 in such a short time!!!!.
  14. AEM Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 12:16 am

    tex 145
    AEM #142,

    Most of my information about TEAM comes from several Opens and a Seminar, not A/Q.

    . . . then you don’t have much information.
  15. Tex Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 12:23 am

    C Johnsoon #176,

    I read your law suit versus TEAM. How do you guys sleep at night? —- Very soundly with a smile on their faces would be my guess.

    What competing MLM are you talking about? What are you talking about….. period. —- You don’t tell the whole story in a lawsuit, don’t you know that?

    Also, I saw your alegations… where are the exhibits? —- Again, the exhibits show up as evidence in the courtroom. You appear to have a complete lack of understanding what a lawsuit looks like.

    Greed is your problem. —- Lack of IQ is your problem.

    toomuchtex #177,

    You allowed tex to slur latinos; people were offended-you said and did nothing. —- Where did I do that? Just because some people are looking to be offended doesn’t mean I slurred any group of people.

    You allowed tex to slur the handicaped; same response. —- Same.

    You permit tex to offend in virtually every post. You engage him in warm banter. —- Virtually, I thought I offended somebody in EVERY post. I better pay more attention to this…you idiot. What can I say, I’m just lovable.

    To confirm that you are allowing one individual to offend entire groups of people, I suggest you re-read the many responses from the people who have been offended. —- Provide the location, you lazy jerk.

    You permit tex to insult people he has never met and rant about issues in which he is not involved and speak of things of which he simply does not have the facts.
    You selectively screen other individuals. —- I don’t have to meet you to know you’re an Orrinite, it oozes out from every pore in your body. I don’t need to meet someone to KNOW they support the lying cowardly “kingpins”. I’m plenty involved, what are you talking about? I have plenty of facts and use them to support my logical conclusions, unlike YOU. The Moderators don’t “selectively screen” anyone, they have declined some of my posts and modified others when I test the boundaries, you’re just a whiner extrordinaire.

    As the volume of garbage tex posts continues to accumulate, it appears more and more that this blog is using the Lone Stranger to carry the mail. If that is not the message that Alticor intends, then why not rein in this horse’s hindquarters? If it is the message Alticor wants sent, why not send it directly from Corporate Communications? —- I post my opinions based on facts and logic. This is an open blog, deal with it, loser.

    By intent or neglect, Alticor Media Blog is allowing many distributors and prospects to be offended by tex. Is that how you want to be painted? —- I am offended the lying cowardly “kingpins” have financially and mentally raped millions of former and current Distributors/IBO’s for decades to the tune of hundreds of millions to billions of dollars, or more. Get a clue. Get a grip. Get lost.
  16. AEM Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 12:28 am

    Page 4 of the suit filed in Navada. .
    “The goodwill and relationships Quixtar has with customers and/or IBOs, all based on and organized
    around the LOS, are extremely valuable to Quixtar”.

    What you do is far clearer than what you say. How many non-Team affliated IBO’s are
    leaving simply because of how Quixtar has treated their IBO’s?
  17. FR aka Warrior Princess in Az Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 12:32 am

    Sorry bout that, #204 & 205 are duplicates- copy/paste error. Read #205 again to get it all into the brain so it stays there.

    God Bless to you all.

    Please remember why you all got involved in this business in the first place. oops, I remember - it wasn’t Q providing the positive teaching, encouraging words, books on relationships, friendships, hugs when necessary, a shoulder to lean on when needed, a very personal friendship & business relationship - people helping people, not people buying products; products if y’all remember is more of a side of what the real purpose to having a People Business.

    Rreading these blogs & all the lawsuits instigated by Q, you’d never know that the Founding Fathers Rich & jay started this business with all the encouragement, integrity, character and honesty of a professional business owner wanting to give people the same opportunity and to share that opportunity.

    All the blogging, especially here, all the Q lawsuits continuing with all the Hate of Orrin, Chris, TEAM & anyone associated with them, is way beyond and past the point of respect and Free Enterprise.

    Remember what Mr. Kruscheff from Russia said to us the USA - we will crush you from within. This is what is happening.

    Q wake up. You are doing the same thing. You are destroying yourselves, any IBO still there wanting to believe and succeed in business and follow their dream, and all who are around you. Shame on you.

    Prove yourselves to be people of respect and decent integrity and stop all this foolishness before you have no one else to blame and you are forced to look in the mirror.
    Bring it!
    Warrior Princess
  18. Tex Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 12:33 am

    sak #178,

    I’m here for the duration. If Bridgett leaves, I will miss her accurate perspective and sharp wit. But I can handle the load, you guys make it very easy for me to body slam you on every post.

    GirlPower #179,

    Right on.

    Rick #180,

    you have way too much time on your hands or your getting paid… —- Not getting paid, but my time is a minor price to pay for getting rid of the tool scam.

    this is a free country and we all have rights and such.. or we thought we did.. —- We have rights, but you have to follow the rules, just like in the “real” business world.

    1. you have no rights left in amquix.. —- WRONG.
    2. they were my friends to start with.. and now.. there property of quixsand.. —- WRONG.
    3. morally and ethically has been a little abused by the quixand folks.. how about all the bonuses that were due to folks that earned there bonus,, yet did NOT recieve it.. so if you believe in santa you will believe in quixsand.. and some day santa just wont come for you either…. —- WRONG.
    GOD BLESS AND PEACE TO ALL INVOLVED… —- Split personality?
  19. Tex Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 12:43 am

    John #181,

    IBOAI Board Privately = We 100% vote no confidence in Quixtar or the name change to Amway. —- I think it was only the name change, but doesn’t matter, because they don’t have approval authority.

    IBOAI Board to IBOs = We are so excited about this best business opportunity in the world. —- What would you say if you were a liar and coward, making millions via the tool scam?

    IBOAI Board privately = Our research shows that Q products are way overpriced. —- Some are, some aren’t. I thought it was funny Billy Florence and Don Wilson took Doug DeVos to Walmart to look at prices in Texas a couple of years ago.

    IBOAI Board to IBOs = You can save 30% by buying from yourself. —- This is true, but I find the retail prices too high in my area of the country, where the cost of living/prices are lower.

    IBOAI Board privately = 95% will drop out within 5 years. —- This is a fairly well known fact, and true about many MLM’s. In Q’s case, it is made worse by the tool scam.

    IBOAI Board to IBOs = By following these CORE steps (and lining our pockets) you can surely expect $50,000 in your first year. —- Now you’re talking.

    Alticor privately and publically = You are an independent business owner, but the business you built by recruiting belongs to us and you can’t have it. We are the best business in the world, but we won’t show you by fair competition - instead we will sue you so you can’t even try to compete (sounds like they are afraid of competition). Quixtar is not Amway, it is a brand new business model (I’ve heard that for the last 7 years). Uh, Quixtar is going back to Amway but it will be a “transformation” to Amway. —- Whine, whine, whine. You must be drunk by now.

    So in the end what happens? Kingpins still get insane profits by lieing to their downline. Quixtar still gets Jay factor profits by allowing kingpins to exaggerate. And ofcourse, single moms, college kids and new people with some dreams get hurt. —- That’s the point, the truth of the tool scam is in the open, and it’s up to the IBO’s to call a spade a spade and let the lying cowardly “kingpins” what we think of their tool scam. Your Jay Factor is a pretty weak argument, and has been destroyed by me several times. You need to get a clue on this issue.
  20. TEAM_MEX Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 12:49 am

    WOW, THAT GOOD IS THE FUTURE OF TEAM???
    BACAUSE Q/A/A/? IT’S AFRAID ABOUT TEAM LEADERSHIP,IF THEY DONT CARE THEY LEAVE US,RIGHT????

    PEOPLE OF A/Q/A/??/ THINK ABOUT IT!!

    THEY ARE USING THE IBO’S MONEY!!!

    WELL,I DON’T CARE ME AND MY TEAM ARE FOCUS ON THE FUTURE OF TEAM,,,,,LANCE, HERE WE GO!!!
  21. Tex Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 12:57 am

    Pink Panther #183,

    Good plan, let us know how it works out.

    I use my IBO number to log onto the site, and there’s a TEAM number after I sign in.

    How do you know nobody has been told to resign? Are you saying the woman giving testimoney a week or two ago was lying?

    If you think it’s a joke, just try it and see what happens.

    You got through KY, don’t depend on the same excuse to work for St. Louis.

    Some products are overpriced, and it has been the upline that preaches 100% product loyalty, not Quixtar.

    You aren’t capable of secretly getting people into Quixtar, they find out when the IBO number is assigned.

    We’ll see who looks foolish in the long term. My educated guess is Orrin and Co.

    You know, the thing that you need to be successful at anything, not just an organization that is apparently competing with Quixtar. —- What?

    Lastly, toward the end of the lawsuit, you sound like a bunch of whiny babies. Can you imagine K-Mart taking Wal-Mart to court, going “it’s not fair, they are competing with us. They have lower prices and our hurting our business.” No one is competing with you. We are building LEADERS. —- Then Orrin and Co. should have shut up and done it, rather than filing their “illegal pyramid” lawsuit. That’s what is most amazing, the biggest liars and rule breakers are claiming to be “leaders”. What a joke.
  22. Tex Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 1:02 am

    Pink Panther #185,

    That’s not what they meant at all, care to guess again? I find your “answers” very entertaining.

    Scipio #186,

    I can’t wait for the trial, either. We’ll probably get lots more tool scam details.

    marc #187,

    Tex, I don’t expect you to like ANY post on this blog that speaks against AltiQuixWay. —- I criticize A/Q when I think they deserve it.

    So what exactly do you like better about the new Amway than the previous one? —- You’re not in it.
  23. Tex Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 1:11 am

    John #188,

    I agree with your assessment of A/Q supporting the tool scam by their silence. However, the rules violations are privacy matters that many Diamonds probably experience from time to time. I also agree with your characterization of the various Diamonds, I have most LOS/LOA tools, and they sound VERY similar to each other. As Randy Haugen is well known for saying, “What’s your problem, we all have the same plan, right?” So how different COULD the audios be?

    Mick #189,

    You need to get into a new line of work. So far all I see is a line of bull from. By the way you should start your own business. You certainly have all the answers. Shape up Mick and grow up. Lets face it you are man enough to start your own company. You are to full of bull. Good Luck Mick on person you put down.
  24. Tex Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 1:15 am

    Rich #191,

    I would just to like to ask, how in the world can someone defending themselves from being threatened by filing filing a TRO to try and protect their business be an attack on y’all? Again, I am just asking because I would really like to know that. —- Because…they are….defendants….in those TRO’s?

    And for anyone to answer, (us meaning anyone in TEAM including Orrin) regarding “smearing” Quixtar. Why is it that in just about everything that I have read regarding this conflict, Quixtar/Alticor has openly and blatantly disparaged, insulted and attacked TEAM, and in regards to how “TEAM is disparaging, insulting and attacking Quixtar” is only found in statements and accusations by Quixtar/Alticor? Especially since the leaders in TEAM have repeatedly asked us to do our best to avoid these claims. —- Because TEAM initially launched “The Mother of All Insults” with their “illegal pyramid” lawsuit. That’s like shooting someone in the head and then telling your fellow criminal partners not to hit the person who was shot. You’re a living, walking, talking, joke.

    Let see: 1. Quixtar/Alticor openly doing these things against TEAM, 2. The only signs of TEAM doing these things are that Quixtar/Alticor are accusing TEAM of doing these things. Hmmmm, What is wrong with this picture????? —- What’s wrong is mentioned above, you idiot.
  25. Niki Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 1:24 am

    Tex,
    What’s the matter - can’t answer a few simple questions? You can harass everyone else about their answers but won’t play ball when someone calls you out. I think you’re a fraud - answer the questions without your lame when I’m platinum excuse (like you’re ever going platinum - that’s laughable).

    What was your PV last month? And your bonus check? And how long have you been in? And how much did you say your net income was last year? Tell the truth now. I’m waiting…
  26. Tex Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 1:27 am

    john #192,

    You need to read the rules again. I can get tools from any source I choose, but you can’t promote to those outside your LOS. Besides, if they treated me similar to Orrin, I would have at least 6 years to fix my problems, sometimes the same problem over and over again.

    Others have used their pea-shooters to call me names. It’s not my fault that all I have is 16″ guns to fire back with. You guys were all cocky when the court case was in CA and the TRO’s were being approved. Now that the tables have turned you get all whiny (or you can use “whiney” if you prefer) over the same name-calling that was fine when you were feeling cocky. Get a grip. Better yet, just leave this blog and let us take care of the rest of the lying cowardly “kingpins”, Orrin and Co. are yesterday’s news.
  27. Tex Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 1:33 am

    Vince #194,

    There isn’t much sparring on other blogs, they ban one side or the other.

    You don’t have a clue how we feel, and you don’t feel the same way. We don’t like the lying cowardly “kingpins”, you do.

    After Orrin and Co.’s bonehead “illegal pyramid” lawsuit, it may be much more than a 6 month waiting period for them.

    We are way past the handshake stage, if you haven’t noticed.
  28. Tex Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 1:46 am

    freedom #195,

    I think you have properly assessed the facts of the situation.

    Cathy #197,

    One or two people being interested doesn’t make it a viable business. Also, when they learn more about how Orrin has been acting, you may not see them as “fired up” as they are now.

    5caballeros #198,

    You obviously don’t understand, but it doesn’t matter. Bub-bye.

    janedoe #199,

    Quixtar is digging a hole, the purpose of the hole is what you don’t “get”, it is to bury Orrin and Co. into (figuratively speaking, of course).
  29. Shannon Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 2:06 am

    You know… all I gotta say to Q/A is quit your sniveling! This whole lawsuit is a whiny bunch of bull. This happened to my hair dresser. She was being poorly treated by her salon, so one day, she wasn’t there anymore. The salon told her that the clients belonged to the salon. Well, I liked the way she cut and colored my hair, so when I called to make an appointment, I found out what happened, and secretly found out where she went. My loyality wasn’t to the salon. It was to the hairdresser who I’d developed a relationship with, and wanted HER and ONLY HER to cut my hair! Guess what Q, you’re the salon, and I think I’ll follow my hairdresser to a brighter salon, wherever that may lead (I wish I could look into a crystal ball to see the new salon, but I can’t). But did the old salon sue the hair dresser and say “you stole our private information”? NO! Cause it’s a free country and I can go to any salon I CHOOSE!

    No one coached me, no one cornered me, no one forced me… you basically pushed me to follow my hair dresser! I refuse to let you color my hair with “Amway” or condition with “Jay Factor” anymore!
  30. John Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 3:24 am

    I have an idea. The IBOAI says they represent the IBOs. All LOS kingpins say their best interest is in the IBOs. Quixtar says it is protecting the IBOs. So how about this. How about every IBOAI member, every kingpin and Quixtar all open their books to the IBOs. Let the IBOs see the truth. Let the IBOs see how much IBOAI members and kingpins are taking from their downline to enrich their materialistic, selfish, arrogant lifestyles. And let Mr. Devos and Vanandel open their books and show how much money they are taking from low level IBOs. I am all for profit and free enterprise, but I am not for so called leaders always talking about how much they care about the IBOs when in fact they making huge personal and selfish profits at the expense of college kids, single moms and struggling families. Open the books guys. For once in your lives, just tell the truth. You are hurting lots of people with your greed and selfishness. By the way, if the IBOAI is a Michigan non-profit, is it possible to request (freedom of information act) a copy of their financial statements? It might be interesting to see how much these caring Board members receive for their service to protect the very IBOs they keep taking money from for tools. Does anyone know?
  31. John Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 3:26 am

    I have an idea. The IBOAI says they represent the IBOs. All LOS kingpins say their best interest is in the IBOs. Quixtar says it is protecting the IBOs. So how about this. How about every IBOAI member, every kingpin and Quixtar all open their books to the IBOs. Let the IBOs see the truth. Let the IBOs see how much IBOAI members and kingpins are taking from their downline to enrich their materialistic, selfish, arrogant lifestyles. And let Mr. Devos and Vanandel open their books and show how much money they are taking from low level IBOs. I am all for profit and free enterprise, but I am not for so called leaders always talking about how much they care about the IBOs when in fact they making huge personal and selfish profits at the expense of low level IBOs. Open the books guys. For once in your lives, just tell the truth. You are hurting lots of people with your greed and selfishness. By the way, if the IBOAI is a Michigan non-profit, is it possible to request (freedom of information act) a copy of their financial statements? It might be interesting to see how much these caring Board members receive for their service to protect the very IBOs they keep taking money from for tools. Does anyone know?
  32. rico (the other one) Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 7:23 am

    Dear Quixtar,

    JaneDoe(199) points out that you are missing proprietary information that IBO’s could be using to build their businesses.

    Prior to my resignation I sponsored my son, and three of my best friends. If you are missing contact information on them, you can email me and I’ll provide that to you so that other IBOs can use that to build their business.

    My upline has never suggested that I resign. My upline has not approached me presenting a new MLM.

    When I resigned, I did so in compliance with your request entitled “Just Go TEAM.” You were the ones that asked me to leave, not TEAM; So I left. The deciding information all came from the postings that your company put here.

    It is the attitude and posture of the company’s postings here that made me decide to resign. (Not the bloggers, not Bridgett, not Tex, not the pro-TEAM bloggers.)

    But then, I only spent about $4,000 a year at Quixtar, so it’s not big deal that I’m gone. 3/4 of it was self consumption, and the company wouldn’t want to make money off IBO consumption so you are probably relieved I am now spending that at Meijers.com or Target.com instead.

    Although if 25,000 other IBOs did the same - thats a $100,000,000 drop in sales…oh well, your company will grow so much faster with all those potential IBOs clamoring to be AMWAY people that you’ll mitigate that loss in a couple of months

    Once again, let me know if you can’t find the proprietary information on my son and I’ll email his address and phone# to you. If other IBOs use that “proprietary information” to build their businesses “right now”, please make sure he knows them — you wouldn’t want to “illegally” stack him.

    (Yes, this is tongue-in-cheek.)
  33. Jennifer Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 8:18 am

    Ok here is a thought to reflect on… Before this went down, when you got involved with the TEAM you registered with TEAM and then registered with Quixtar. While Quixtar can claim they “Own” their LOS information, on the same point TEAM can claim the same because they registered the same people with their business. They are 2 different entities and the order of registration on both would be the same considering you registered with both at the same time. HELLLLOOOO!! Nothing was ever stolen, taken, kept, etc…
  34. Thunderstruck Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 8:40 am

    Dwight Spaulding #163

    Your response to Lone Star State #147 would be valid if that response was directed toward an IBO. Many people are reading these posts that are not (I get calls daily from people who are not IBO’s who read this). But, I do think that LSS should be careful because the Q lawyers are expert spinners. In addition, I don’t think the moderator would allow an actual solicitation toward IBO’s because then he would be an accomplice.
  35. Thunderstruck Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 8:43 am

    GirlPower #200

    Interesting analogy, remember…..lawyers are known as “crows”. In the end, all that will matter is we are gone and you are Amway.
  36. Tex Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 8:44 am

    GirlPower #200,

    The appropriate amount of crow for Orrin and Co. and the Orrinites to eat would threaten extinction of the species.

    If you recall the movie Forrest Gump, when Bubba Blue talked about all the ways you can prepare Shrimp, imagine the parallel sentence from the judge: Crow is the fruit of the land. You can barbecue it, boil it, broil it, bake it, sautee it. There’s, um, crow kebabs, crow creole, crow gumbo, pan fried, deep fried, stir fried. There’s pineapple crow and lemon crow, coconut crow, pepper crow, crow soup, crow stew, crow salad, crow and potatoes, crow burger, crow sandwich… That’s, that’s about it.

    Don’t ruin your appetite, TEAM. The best part is you won’t be able to talk or type while you’re eating. I understand a good, crisp white whine goes well with crow. Bon appetit.
  37. Utah Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 9:32 am

    I scanned these again, and wanted to make a few comments:

    1st, as soon as it became apparent, that a judge would/did rule that Q/A could tell Team not to sell contacting tools or have Open meetings on Tuesday, these stopped. I have not seen a Tuesday Open meeting scheduled for months. My tools that could be used for building a Quixtar business were no longer sold by Team or used. After Q/A won part of the suit in MI, Team went strictly generic leadership development. The Kent County Judge told Team they could operate, as long as they didn’t violate specific rulings. He has recently said that Team seems to be complying generally.

    2nd, Team didn’t need to get the LOS from the Diamonds (former or not) or Q/A or any computer. Any IBO, or former IBO, would know who their mentors were. Team could delete any LOS information they have tommorrow, and within one month who is mentoring each member could be restored by each member quickly. I have seen no evidence that Team stole any LOS information.

    3rd, Team has stated that they were not as of 8/9 starting a new MLM and that no mention of a new MLM was given at Louisville. To the best of my knowledge, no new MLM has been started or promoted since this mess on 8/9 til now, including the Louisville “party”.

    4th, No one from Don Wilson, down to me has ever told me to resign Q/A or not. If I decided to go off auto renewal, it was my choice and I will not encourage others to quit or not. That is an individual decision.

    5th, based on Mlive, etc, 16,000 former IBOs out of 100k have quit Q/A. That leaves the majority wondering if they will stay or not. Actions like this last lawsuit, that, based on the above points, is frivolous, only hurts Q/A chances of hanging on to the rest of the IBOs involved.

    Q/A couldn’t win shutting Team down in Kent County, and are moving to Nevada. The statement above that Q/A has been on the defensive and are now moving to the offensive, conflicts with this blog. Q/A were you lying before, or are you lying now?
  38. IBO To Go Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 9:32 am

    Hi TexSpin,

    Your mommy told me I might find you over here.
  39. john jay franklin Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 9:40 am

    #171

    It’s standard business practice, at places of employment. We’ve been told by Q that we are business owners. When I closed my first business (not Q or mlm), I kept the names and numbers because it was my business. I brought those names and numbers to the second business I owned.
  40. Brad Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 9:43 am

    It’s clear that Q/A is suing the TEAM because over 14,000 IBO’s have resigned their Quixtar business therefore drastically impacting the bottom line at Alticor. What they need to realize is that the 14,000 IBO’s that have quit will not come back regardless of the lawsuit, so this is really a waste of time and money. If this was the “opportunity” that they say it is, they wouldn’t be trying so hard to shut down a BSM company that has no business volume.
  41. Utah Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 9:45 am

    Clarification on my last post:

    “2nd, Team didn’t need to get the LOS from the Diamonds (former or not) or Q/A or any computer. Any IBO, or former IBO, would know who their mentors were. Team could delete any LOS information they have tomorrow, and within one month who is mentoring each member could be restored by each member quickly. I have seen no evidence that Team stole any LOS information.”

    It is my understanding that prior to 8/9, anyone signing up on the Team website put in their own list of leaders/mentors, and that this information would not have to come from any Q/A LOS or any current or former IBO number. While the LOS information from the top down might be hard to reconstruct, Mentor/Leader information from the bottom up is not.

    Since I have not seen any evidence that Team is violating any court orders, This additional lawsuit hurts my chances of renewing.

    There are a lot of good people at Q/A and that are committed IBOs. I don’t understand why Alticor attorneys keep trying to ruin Q/A for anyone wanting to stay.
  42. Enough Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 9:53 am

    Amway…all this legal stuff aside, people are leaving by the thousands. Does this not say something? People do not want the name Amway and people don’t want overpriced products. You can take it to court all you want. You can complain all you want. The fact is people don’t want to be part of Amway!
  43. IBO To Go Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 10:13 am

    TexSpin,

    You and the Moderator are pretty cozy.

    Administrator #93 Says:

    “Tex: I’m pretty sure G meant something else altogether. Besides, how could we ever pay you? Your participation is priceless”.

    Sounds like a true endorsement of both your TexSpin “facts” as well as your insults and name calling. A true sign of the Amway of the future.

    So how much do you get paid for bloging?

    That’s the BLOGING-FOR-PAY scam we all heard about.
  44. Richard the Lion-Hearted Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 10:16 am

    Ah, janedoe 199 has hit upon a very important point.

    The non-compete rule means you just have to go build with another group of folks until the elimination period is over.

    So, my TEAM ex- bros and sis’, go build your new orgs… Don’t sit and wait for the 6 mos or 2 years.

    Your leadership will need your efforts — to fund their bills with Mr. Poyfair & Co.
  45. bill Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 10:25 am

    Hi TEX
    Greetings from a fellow Texan.
    I have finally arrived.
    I have been called stoooopid by TEX.

    Actually it is more accurate to say
    Orrin and Chris signed up for auto renewal which states that you are bound by the rules of conduct, and that such rules of conduct can be modified without notice, and at some point in 2003 a non-compete clause was added to those rules of conduct, and legally they may or may not be bound by it, because the manor that this rule was slipped in is questionable at best.

    I know for a fact that this is what happened.
    Because that’s what happened to me.
    If it makes you feel any better I will re-phrase my statement as follows.

    I signed up for auto renewal as a convenience. I was unaware that the fine print stated that rules of conduct which I was bound could be modified without notice, I did not knowingly agree to be bound by rules that had not even been drafted yet. But nevertheless at some point in 2003 or 2004 a non-compete clause was added to those rules of conduct. The language of which is so vague that it can be interpreted to mean I am prohibited from joining another business for 2 and a half years after I resign. I never signed a non-compete. I never agreed to a Non-compete. And until this latest flap I was totally unaware that a non-compete even existed. In my opinion the language of this non-compete is totally unconscionable.

    You can hang you hat on the Legal technicalities if you want to.
    But I view the addition of this non-compete as a Despicable Legal trick which is void of morality and Legitimacy.
  46. Rick Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 11:23 am

    TEX JUST SHUT UP!!!!!!

    EVERYONE JUST GIVE IT A REST ALREADY!!!!
  47. mlt Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 11:51 am

    I’ve gotta laugh at all the B.S. I’m seeing here. When my research shows that one party of this turf battle has lost 15 of the 17 or so lawsuits that have been filed I have got to laugh at their idioticy and wonder if Alticor/Amway shouldn’t be wrapped up in the nearest white saftey vest & escorted into the silent room for some psychriatic healing.
  48. Tex Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 12:01 pm

    Rich #201,

    I suggest you engage your brain and use some common sense.

    If you change businesses, your close family and friends will probably know, and may ask you about it. You can answer their questions, but cannot invite them to join you for 2 years. If there are one or two occurrences of this, the corp probably won’t even notice. If they did notice, it would be hard to prove. However, if there is a pattern, especially a larger pattern, expect some questions and potentially an arbitration process.

    You may now disengage your brain again, if this is too much of a strain.

    ben #202,

    We’ll see how “together” you are when the punishment comes down. I doubt very much you will want to “stand by your man” when that occurs. Do you remember how cocky you were when the case was in CA prior to getting booted out, and DISMISSED WITH PREJUDICE? I do.
  49. Tex Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 12:05 pm

    Fig #203,

    Not if you explain the facts to the prospects. There is a much larger international market now, so your perception of how much damage you are causing is probably smaller than you would like it to be, but thanks for another testimonial the Quixtar lawyers can tell the judge/arbitrators about when they consider damages. Keep it up.
  50. Fig Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 12:15 pm

    For those of whom to be still confused on what happened….here’s a comprehensive, un-biased link that explains alot!! http://barristerquixtarlawsuit.typepad.com/
  51. Tex Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 12:17 pm

    FR #204,

    Just to let you know Tex, I did read your insults, lies, and downright ridiculous insinuations, remarks, yada yada yada —- You read them, but did you understand them?

    I too, would like to know who the likes of who you are and who appointed you GOD. —- I’ve answered this question. I am not God, but I am, as they say, “on a mission from God”.

    My wife & I were not at Louisville. The most awesome Leadership Conference ever attended would have included some tool scam truth. Did Orrin tell you how he and his fellow lying cowardly “kingpins” clean up at your expense (literally and figuratively) via the tool scam? Who cares about talking respect, attitude, consideration, kindness and decency of others, when they are lying between their teeth? I’ve been to plenty of other major functions for over a decade and listened to all the flowery words you heard in KY, it’s all based on the tool scam lie. You come across as an arrogant egotistical (I’m trying to be nice pastor) blowhard who doesn’t know which end is up.

    Approx 25,000+ attended the weekend. Freedom Hall holds 20,000 and it was packed - another building was opened up to hold the rest of the people in attendance and it was just about packed. —- I wonder how many of them knew they were being misled?

    All the speakers, especially Orrin 2 speeches/teachings hit the ball right out of the park - way out. It was Tremendous! All the speakers were courteous, gracious, caring individuals who still, through all the garbage handed them over the past couple months, gave their hearts to everyone in attendance. Don’t get sarcastic either Tex. If you have a heart, maybe you’ll get the clue. —- I have a heart, that’s why I do what I do, point out the tool scam to the tens of thousands of people who went to KY.

    That’s all you have? Nothing new, same garbage I’ve heard many times before.
  52. Tex Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 12:32 pm

    freedom #205,

    … I think Orrin started something HE should have just walked away from. —- I agree with this completely, but Orrin showed his true character with his bonehead moves.

    Orrin has said in many different ways and with many different analogies over the years, if you come at me, if you attack me, I’m going to defend myself and fight back. —- Too bad he tried to pick the fight first, with something MUCH bigger than him, and a fight he cannot win.

    None of us know what happened in that meeting except the Diamonds and Quixtar people that were there. We can argue, but it’s all speculation. —- We know from documents and what both sides agree on what happened, and can draw reasonable conclusions from, so it’s not all speculation. In fact, there is very little and inconsequential speculation required.

    None of that matters. What I know as fact, is that after the meeting, on the same day, Orrin filed a lawsuit against Quixtar. And not just any lawsuit, but one that got thrown out WITH PREJUDICE. —- It does matter, because it is part of the facts of this case. However, I agree the lawsuit being filed is THE important fact.

    Now, if you are Quixtar, and you also share Orrin’s you attack me I will fight back attitude, what are you going to do? Just say go away? Of fight back? —- Pound all of them to a bloody pulp, legally speaking, not physically of course. Although if we ever met in a dark alley….

    The question I come back to is this, if Orrin truly walked into the meeting trying to help IBO’s, never made a threat, never threatened Quixtar or did anything wrong, and at the end said, “I’m sorry you feel that way. I resign effective immediately. I will wait my six months and at the end will start my own MLM. I thank you for the years of service, but I can no longer in good conscience build this business.” Would any of us be discussing anything??????? —- We would be discussing something, and it depends if he truly walked away and didn’t try to take IBO’s with him behind the scenes.

    Would Orrin have to contact anyone? Or would all the team IBO’s, with no influence from Orrin, quit anyway? If the only team information you could get was a statement on the team website that said, “We appreciate our affiliation with Quixtar throughout the years, but the team site will be on hold until February 9, 2008″ wouldn’t all the free thinking team people know exactly what is going on and quit anyway? —- I think this would have worked out much better for Orrin and Co., but that’s not where we are, is it?

    So what did Orrin’s lawsuit do other than to push Quixtar into a corner that Orrin himself has said many times he would fight his way out of? —- It got him into a battle he will lose. All of his blustering doesn’t do a bit of good for him. He knows this now that he gave court testimony and faked his meek and mild temperament. Of of you who have been around know he was a completely different person giving the testimony that was on the news video clip.

    Maybe Orrin should have said “good bye and good riddance and best of luck to you.” —- I think he realizes this now, but it’s too late, the damage has been done. Now it’s time to get the legal shovels out and bury him.
  53. Tex Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 12:50 pm

    FR #206,

    Oh yeah, I forgot there was a part 2. I’ll do my best to stay awake to make it through this one.

    People of integrity always stand firm and come out ahead shining above all others. I feel sorry for some of you who are still deceived by TEAM. Amway many years started out great and full of integrity. It got lost somewhere along the way with the tool scam, the tool scammers got greedy and forgot what the business was all about. What they also forgot was that people are loyal to honest people and their honest character, honest integrity, honest principles, honest credibility, honest honor, NOT the fake ones the lying cowardly “kingpins” are. Just for you FR, I happen to love the Q products and vitamins. What we’ve decided is we want to purchase from a corporation who doesn’t lie, continues on with childish “illegal pyramid lawsuits, breaks rules and thumbs their nose at them, etc. There was no “sneaking in” industry accepted non-compete rules and changes to the ‘plan’ (you should have read the rules, your upline should have trained you on the changes, and the IBOAI could have put out information as well), or foregoing the reason for the IBOAI (they give advice, not approval), or ignoring the wishes and suggestions of all their IBOs (not this IBO, I agree with ALL the changes), or changes that were set up for ‘changing lines of sponsorships’ to limiting and shackling of Independent Business Owners who choose to leave the Corporation (more BS), not just a line of sponsorship. I’ve watched the prices, the comparisons, have had my own issues and discussions with Q regarding prices going up only to be seeing changes happening; Vitamins kept going down in price(such as the Daily multi-vitamins), while PV stayed the same; BV may have gone up in conjunction with price, but it took one a whole lot less money to get to the same pv bracket it took less money to do years ago before 1999 Quixtar (I agree with this last part, by the way. Just want to be clear with the facts. I have an early 70’s catalog that shows PV above the retail cost, but it doesn’t give BV. Perhaps an “old timer” can explain how it worked back then). I was good at helping people ‘reach’ their brackets. Could help people get their 100 pts for way under $200 - sometimes close to $150 and that included the tax and shipping (I agree with this as well). Nowadays, there is no way one can get to a bracket of 100 pv without costing them $240+ (this is also true). Formucare products mfg for Access Business Group come from the same mfg that supplies other Vendors for a whole lot less (I agree with this also, especially if generics are acceptable to you, and they are with me). I just purchased 240 tabs of Ranitadine for $6.00 from the same people who provide bottle of 30 tabs for Access Business Group - only ABG sells it for apaprox $7. You figure it out (I agree with this as well. Did you mean “Ranitidine”? I don’t use antacids, I have very little stress in my life and laugh a lot, especially when I’m on this blog, for some reason). When we sold or carried a particular litter also carried by Petsmart, Q sold it for twice the money - 30lb bag for $11.99 Petsmart; 2/15 lb bags for $30. Q tried to say it was 2 different items. It wasn’t! (For all the above examples, I suggest you not guy them. Quixtar never preached 100% loyalty, your upline did. This was so they could also scam with the idea of 100% tool loyalty and make the big bucks. If IBO’s didn’t buy the overpriced stuff, Quixtar would be forced to either drop the product or the price, problem solved.)
  54. Tex Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 1:09 pm

    ben #207,

    I agree the reputation has been damaged, mostly from the decades of being aware of and not cleaning up the tool scam.

    FR #208,

    You STILL haven’t brought anything new to the table, I hope part 3 is the last one.

    Paper products, go figure it out. Paper products are high, but when you add tax and shipping and then special shipping it really get costly. Now get this one and see if you can figure it out. Q has their own papermill. They are able to produce their own paper products. They printed the Speigel catalog few years back. They boasted about it. So why do they charge everyone an arm and a leg for paper products they can produce on their own. —- See 100% loyalty comment on previous post.

    We’ve been to the Nutrilite factory. cleanest and most impressive building facility I’ve ever seen. Maybe Tex works for Q and that is why he is able to say all he says, and insult anyone he chooses without any interruption from the blog administrator here. —- Are you trying to compare a clean building and my obviously witty comments? I don’t see the connection, but if you do, go for it.

    Sorry, for getting long, probably won’t be seen here,. I just can’t stand idiocy running rampant and taking so many innocent people with it. —- Guess you were wrong again, here’s the message, it looks like in its entirety.

    TEAM is just what it is - a Leadership Development source providing educational/motivational material for all and any who desire to learn how to be a better person and pass that learning on to others as in the movie ‘Pay it Forward’. —- You wish. It will be interesting to see if Orrin can make TEAM survive, now that he isn’t hiding behind the A/Q business. My guess is he’ll turn into a stand-alone “success” speaker/author like former TIF Diamond Andy Andrews did, except Orrin isn’t funny, just funny looking.

    Product oriented people will never get it. —- That’s the problem, product oriented people is what is shown in the marketing plan, except when it is “hijacked” by the Orrinites and other lying cowardly “kingpins” who use it as a cover. We do get it, YOU’RE being scammed.

    So I have a life to live vs being controlled and taken away from better things in life. this will be the last you hear from me so all of you please be safe, take heart, listen with an open mind and heart, let your ‘yes’ be ‘yes’ and your ‘no’ be ‘no’ - this is biblical - may be good idea to read it unless you consider that part of a ‘tool’ scam. —- No, I consider the tool scam to be a hijacking of the Bible as well.

    I’m sure you want your surgeons, dentists, contractors, accountants, brokers, etc. who need ‘tools’ to utilize their ‘tool’s whether they be books, schooling, conferences, seminars, cds, dvds, etc., so they can provide you the best possible service available. But, maybe you consider all their ‘tools’ a scam for them as well. —– Those people aren’t our “business partners” or “teammates” who bait and switch us. You are so clueless I am happy to say only one thing to you and people like you….Bub-bye.
  55. janedoe Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 1:09 pm

    Tex ,
    Since you seem to have all the answers, maybe you can answer these questions for me, with pure fact and not opinions or insults. Please.

    If I left Q* today or three months ago or didn’t leave at all, and I turned around and signed up with, oh lets say, AVON, Mary Kay, PartyLite, Lia Sophia, Pampered Chef or any other MLM, how would Q* know?

    What if I was involved in another MLM before joining Q* and continued to keep that membership; now I have decided to quit Q*, am I breaking a rule because I am in another MLM?

    So, what if I actually signed up with TEAM and their system before I ever signed up with Q*, and I now have left Q*. Since I was in TEAM first and decided to stay with TEAM, am I still breaking a rule?

    Thanks
  56. Tex Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 1:23 pm

    FR #209,

    Repeat message. In fact, ALL of your messages are repeated from others who have already posted these thoughts. You should do more reading and less typing.

    FR #210,

    This is your second part 1? No wonder you’re confused, even your post numbering “system” is confused.

    I received a very disparaging email from Q against TEAM and was threatened that I/we would be possibly in violation of something if we continued to follow TEAM. (think Q has things a bit turned around - they better look in the mirror) —- There was NOTHING wrong with the original letter, except to an Orrinite.

    Q was court ordered to send out an apology to all IBOs - this never happened. —- Why didn’t Orrin’s attorney jump on this?

    In fact, we never did receive an email from them or letter re: our registration, even though we emailed it, faxed it and then sent it Certified Mail. Took over 2 wks to receive the signed green card back from Q. We were kicked out of Q site though only about a week after we faxed/emailed our resignation in. —- I’m getting great service. Maybe it has to do with where you fall in the priority list. Like….the bottom.

    One has to have access Q by the IBO # and password; once resigned, one no longer has access, so, how does Q keep referring to TEAM keeps using the LOS to do meetings, functions, etc. yada yada….. —- Because there are 6 month and 2 year rules you still have to comply with, that’s why. Are you really this stupid?

    Meetings around the country stopped shortly after the Resignations/Terminations of Aug 9. There are no Tuesday meetings. —- Of course there aren’t any meetings, there aren’t enough IBO “victims” left to make the meetings worthwhile. Plus, the Opens would be a clear violation of the rules. Okay, I take back my earlier question. You’ve convinced me you are this stupid.

    What TEAM leaders, leaders on the IBOAI requested was an amiable separation if they all could not come to some sort of agreement on the name change to Amway and lowering of the prices to be more competitive in the marketplace. —- This is blatantly FALSE. They broke rules, they wanted to break more on their way out, and followed through on their blackmail lawsuit. There is no “agreement” necessary on the name change, it was designed to have a global presence and as a side benefit, it got rid of you and people like you. I’ve already covered prices coming down.

    Q refused to do any of this, they ignored the IBOAI vote against the Amway name being brought back; they even finally agreed that TEAM (Orrin/Chris) did not have an MLM ready to go and that TEAM in of itself is not an MLM. Did they forget that part? —- FALSE again. Who cares what the IBOAI thinks? They are a bunch of lying cowardly “kingpins”. We’ll see how far along Orrin and Co. is with a new MLM/network business when this gets to arbitration and/or court.

    If there is an MLM business TEAM is doing, we are certainly unaware of it. We know nothing of any MLM business so I do not know what Q keeps referring to over and over again in the lawsuit because there is no MLM, no products or services whereby we can make any money. There is and never has been any type of new business talked about, promoted, or even hinted at. More lies from Q. —- As I said, we’ll see you in court.
  57. Tex Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 1:36 pm

    FR #211,

    Another part 2?

    The BDS held and the Louisville Conference deal with nothing but Leadership principles and skills in helping one lead a better life and preparing oneself for better things, whatever they may be. —- Of course it did, Orrin and Co. had to be on their best behavior.

    Everyone is following the Rule 6 to the ‘T’, no ifs, buts, or whatevers. No one was coerced, encouraged, and all the other verbs Q uses in its silly lawsuit to Resign from Q and/or stop their autorenewal. We are all Extremely Loyal to our Leaders; something Q still doesn’t understand or comprehend. We all made a choice on our own. Please give us all that much credit that we all have our own brains and minds and can and do think for ourselves and do not follow a carrot on a stick just for the fun of it because we are told to do or else. —- So the woman who provided testimony under oath lied, and you have personal knowledge of everything you just said for every single IBO? Talk about playing God….

    Talk about money hungry. TEAM never, NEVER in any lawsuit they brought in defending themselves asked for monetary damages. —- Read the lawsuit again. They left the door wide open for monetary damages, they just didn’t ask for any in particular, an attempt to take the “high road”, which fell flat on it’s face.

    They and all of us just want to be left alone by TEAM and never be bothered by them again. TEAM is extremely unprofessional, unbusinesslike, unless one calls what they’re doing (cutthroat tactics) businesslike; money hungry, guess I better not stop - appears like they can say all the disparaging remarks they wish against all of us, which will all be used in the lawsuit.

    Q, however on the other hand, is asking for all sorts of monetary damages - in fact everything they are asking for is not absurd! Some of may even border on being not going far enough. What, they’re trying to recoup all they’ve lost so far. they even and read enough of their own blogs that IBOs are leaving Q strictly based on the recent “illegal pyramid” behavior and how they themselves are limiting the damage themselves - they’re cutting off Orrin’s nose so he can’t smell how big of a stink he’s made, so they have even more ammo for the court and/or arbitration proceedings. Don’t you realize Orrin could have told all of his “flock” to not start any negative blogs, to not say anything negative against A/Q, etc., but he wants you to get dirt on your hands too, so that you’ll follow him on his next scam, because the Orrin pig know pigs stink, and he wants you to stink along with him.

    Don’t mean to be long, but when you have 20 pages of jibberish to respond to, it takes a while and even then it’s hard.

    Pricing? Q even agreed their prices were getting high and they would work on doing something about it but never did, not here in the good ole US of A. I’ve been emailing Q for quite a few years about high priced items. They ignored them. —- See above discussion, how many more times are you going to repeat yourself?

    If Q doesn’t think they’re high priced, then why did they lower prices in the UK after the UK equivalent to our FTC went after them. —- Because they don’t wear halos in this mess, either. But their issues pale in comparison to the tool scam issue.
  58. Anne Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 1:41 pm

    I am continuing my 22 year realtionship with Q/A proudly as I believe that even with warts and all that this is the best opportunity for financial freedom. It freed me after 25 years in the work force of the need to work after 2 years, doubling my job’s salary. My husband was free 5 years later. Our imcome from the business is our retirement other than small ss checks. We have invested for many years in a bsm program willingly as it provides the environment that builds us and our downline and improves our “people skills” That small investment is part of our business expense. Very small compared to expenses in business as usual. We continue to sponsor, my pv/bv is up and we are mentioning Amway during the course of our presentations and have found that the ones with bias didn’t have the open mind and teachable spirit required to build this business anyway. The Team folks posting on this site are excited about the Leadership teaching they got I am just puzzled as to where they will be able to apply this? To a job? There lies the true enslavement in a free economy. Industrial age thinking. Didn’t they have to pay for all the materials and function travel etc? Since it is not a business now but instead leadership training only they will have lost the tax benefit for business owners engaged in an attempt to profit? Someone profited from the tool sales “SM” or not. Who gained? Follow the money trail! I am not surprised by all the resignations as it seems a lot of those folks never were educated about Quixtar/Amway in the first place and thought they were “in” Team. I have always known that my efforts were driving the market to Q/A for which I received fair compensation. I will end with this “Nothing more completely baffles one who is full of trick and duplicity than straigthforward and simple integrity in another. A knave would rather quarrel with a brother knave than with a fool, but he would rather avoid a quarrel with one honest man than with both. He can combat a fool by management and address, and he can conquer a knave by temptations. But the honest man is neither to be bamboozled nor bribed.” - C. C. Colton
  59. Tex Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 1:45 pm

    FR #213,

    Does Q even remember what Free Enterprise is or what it means. That competition is a good thing. What was the book one of their fathers put out ‘Compassionate Capitalism’ Free Enterprise, being an Entrepreneur is what true business ownership is all about. What Q wants is good little employees doing their bidding. Sorry Q, you are not what I/we started in almost 18 yrs ago. Not even close. —- Neither is the tool scam.

    Well, my last 2 posts are under advisement - see if they’ll be allowed to be posted and then especially this one. —- You lose again.

    Sorry Q, all these lawsuits and untruthful allegations are just making all of angrier and angrier and even the people who may have stood behind you are now getting upset and discouraged by you. —- Not me. See you in court and/or arbitration.

    3 days in Louisville, never once heard a disparaging remark re: Quixtar. Since it was not a Quixtar event, and probably majority of those of there have Resigned and no longer IBOs, and not part of Quixtar any longer, Quixtar and its products had no place there in a leadership training and education and we’re no longer associated with Quixtar. —- Stop repeating yourself, it’s getting tiring.

    Books we purchased are books one can buy at any book store and for the same price; don’t think there is any law of any type against selling wearable items with one’s logo; CDs and DVDs that are all about leadership, relationships, history, personalities, behaviors, information on how to become a better person, etc. —- Did you buy the books from outside sources, or through TEAM?

    Funny how all this has been done for many years with Q’s approval and now it’s not. It was even approved under other IBO organizations and 3rd party BSMs are still approved and used by IBO organizations still associated with Q with no problem. —- It wasn’t acceptable before, Orrin has a 6 year track record. It wasn’t the content of the tools as much as the other practices. I think you know this, but who knows, maybe you’re not playing stupid, you just are stupid.

    The plan that has been shown by TEAM and other organizations has been the same plan with slight variations on best way to build security, nonetheless, the same plan that has been shown for almost 18 yrs. A plan/concept that brought in an abundance of IBOs who are/were part of TEAM and other organizational names with no problem. All of a sudden, all these same concepts, way of doing business, plan, BSMs, are all now part of lawsuits instigated by Q. I just don’t get it and neither does thousands of others, apparently. —- You should get it, it’s very simple.

    We’re all just very baffled by this onslaught of viciousness and attacks including personal attacks that are uncalled for. —- How about what Orrin and Co. did by lobbing the first salvo?

    None of what is in that lawsuit is happening. Not from where we are. Not from what we saw and listened to at Louisville, or any BDS since Aug 9, or from any TEAM member, email or voicemail. In fact, emails and voicemails have been nil, nothing - all quiet. —- Perhaps you don’t see the whole picture, this wouldn’t surprise me by what I’ve been reading from you.

    Good nite and God bless…..
WP in AZ
    All resubmitted…..I can’t believe this blog went from 56 to 400 in such a short time!!!!. —– What are you looking at? It’s less than 300. It did grow fast, mostly the garbage from you and other Orrinites.
  60. Tex Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 2:10 pm

    AEM #214,

    I have plenty. I also have the information for over a decade prior to seeing the TEAM system, and the similarities are striking. I have also seen Orrin at a major function, so I know more than you think I do.

    AEM #216,

    What you do is far clearer than what you say. How many non-Team affliated IBO’s are
    leaving simply because of how Quixtar has treated their IBO’s? —- As many as don’t pass the IQ test.

    FR #217,

    Please remember why you all got involved in this business in the first place. oops, I remember - it wasn’t Q providing the positive teaching, encouraging words, books on relationships, friendships, hugs when necessary, a shoulder to lean on when needed, a very personal friendship & business relationship - people helping people, not people buying products; products if y’all remember is more of a side of what the real purpose to having a People Business. —- Sorry, I was shown a product business, and a product business was shown at TEAM Opens.

    Rreading these blogs & all the lawsuits instigated by Q, you’d never know that the Founding Fathers Rich & jay started this business with all the encouragement, integrity, character and honesty of a professional business owner wanting to give people the same opportunity and to share that opportunity. —- The upline “shared” a tool scam.

    All the blogging, especially here, all the Q lawsuits continuing with all the Hate of Orrin, Chris, TEAM & anyone associated with them, is way beyond and past the point of respect and Free Enterprise. —- No it isn’t, it’s called defending yourself, you just happen to be on the losing side of the truth and can’t see it properly.

    Remember what Mr. Kruscheff from Russia said to us the USA - we will crush you from within. This is what is happening. —- Khrushchev is the correct spelling, and guess what, he lost as well.

    Q wake up. You are doing the same thing. You are destroying yourselves, any IBO still there wanting to believe and succeed in business and follow their dream, and all who are around you. Shame on you. —- Shame on the tool scammers and those who support them.

    Prove yourselves to be people of respect and decent integrity and stop all this foolishness before you have no one else to blame and you are forced to look in the mirror.
    Bring it! —- They didn’t start it, but they will finish it. It’s already coming.
  61. Tex Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 2:12 pm

    TEAM_MEX #220,

    WOW, THAT GOOD IS THE FUTURE OF TEAM???
    BACAUSE Q/A/A/? IT’S AFRAID ABOUT TEAM LEADERSHIP,IF THEY DONT CARE THEY LEAVE US,RIGHT???? —- They don’t care if you leave, just follow the rules on your way out the door.

    PEOPLE OF A/Q/A/??/ THINK ABOUT IT!! —- They did. Bub-bye.

    THEY ARE USING THE IBO’S MONEY!!! —- They’ll get it back, and then some, from Orrin and Co.

    WELL,I DON’T CARE ME AND MY TEAM ARE FOCUS ON THE FUTURE OF TEAM,,,,,LANCE, HERE WE GO!!!
    —- Lance is headed towards a cliff, good luck.
  62. Tex Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 2:13 pm

    Niki #225,

    What’s the matter - can’t answer a few simple questions? You can harass everyone else about their answers but won’t play ball when someone calls you out. I think you’re a fraud - answer the questions without your lame when I’m platinum excuse (like you’re ever going platinum - that’s laughable). —- yawn.

    What was your PV last month? And your bonus check? And how long have you been in? And how much did you say your net income was last year? Tell the truth now. I’m waiting… —- yawn.
  63. Tex Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 2:17 pm

    Shannon #229,

    You know… all I gotta say to Q/A is quit your sniveling! This whole lawsuit is a whiny bunch of bull. This happened to my hair dresser. She was being poorly treated by her salon, so one day, she wasn’t there anymore. The salon told her that the clients belonged to the salon. Well, I liked the way she cut and colored my hair, so when I called to make an appointment, I found out what happened, and secretly found out where she went. My loyality wasn’t to the salon. It was to the hairdresser who I’d developed a relationship with, and wanted HER and ONLY HER to cut my hair! Guess what Q, you’re the salon, and I think I’ll follow my hairdresser to a brighter salon, wherever that may lead (I wish I could look into a crystal ball to see the new salon, but I can’t). But did the old salon sue the hair dresser and say “you stole our private information”? NO! Cause it’s a free country and I can go to any salon I CHOOSE! —- You don’t understand. You sought the hair dresser, she didn’t find you. That’s the difference, genius. Think about it.

    No one coached me, no one cornered me, no one forced me… you basically pushed me to follow my hair dresser! I refuse to let you color my hair with “Amway” or condition with “Jay Factor” anymore! —- Bub-bye.
  64. G Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 2:17 pm

    Niki #225

    Wonderful think this Net — all one needs to do is google for what you want, and you’ll get someone’s interpretation. Problem is, some folks take it for gospel.

    As for your question, it appears Tex is (or was) a Founder’s 1000 at some point - likely before deciding there was no need for personal accountability to any part of his support team.

    We now see the results of such self guidance … often wrong, seldom in doubt.

    By the way, you may have problems with where the tools $$$ go Lone Star, but you also have some serious challenges with relatability.

    That’s not the same as tolerance … another issue.

    At some point you may come to realize folks are intrigued by the striking resemblance to Pinto Colvig.
  65. Tex Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 2:21 pm

    John #230,

    I have seen many of these questions asked on the IBOAI blog, and that is the main reason I was “banned” from that site. The best advice I can give is tell every IBO to get their $9 back, the lying cowardly “kingpins” can afford their costs via their tool scam profits. They don’t represent us anyway, they are much more interested in protecting their tool scam profit.

    Quixtar doesn’t have to open their books to me, I have a contract as an independent contractor with them. I know how much things cost and how much I get paid.

    The lying cowardly “kingpins” are an entirely different story. They claim to be our “teammates” and “business partners”, yet scam us on tools, making most of their profit on tools instead of what they tell us, from Quixtar.

    It’s apples and oranges.
  66. Maxwell Smart Says:
    October 26th, 2007 at 2:24 pm

    Hi bloggers –

    There’s an awful lot of hating going on. And mostly it is from people on the fringe or who are being paid to blog. I can see why a person could be angered by what is being said about Orrin and Chris, but it seems that Orrin and Chris have moved on. They are parleying their book into a leadership development business, which is not an MLM nor does it compete with a consumable retail business. Also, I can see why one could be angry being paid to blog. I mean if after slogging through law school and to only work my way up to name calling and baiting unknowing bloggers into stating something that the real attorneys can maybe use — I’d be upset too.

    Just as Orrin and Chris have moved on, that is what people should do. They should strive to be a true Independent Business Owner, not like the IBOs who technically are employees of Quixtar/Amway per IRS code.

    It seems that Quixtar/Amway is trying the oldest trick in the big guy versus little guy legal handbook – make them use up their resources and bury them.

    What Quixtar/Amway is trying to get is the exclusive right to anyone ever affiliated with the company. The fact that some of the people affiliated with Quixtar/Amway also chose to be affiliated with other organizations that are related to business and educate their members such as, Team, Worldwide Dream Builders, Mortgage Bankers Association of America, National Association of Securities Dealers, National Medical Association, Michigan Bar Association or otherwise, should not matter to Quixtar/Amway. That is if they believe in the American Way.

    I mean by definition, others cannot know proprietary information before it is known to the company claiming it as property. In this case, the people being accused had to have known the information prior to the company because they gave the information to the company. Yet an army of staff lawyers can make this absurd argument into a lengthy and very costly battle.

    My last thought on this subject, this is the classic fine-a-scapegoat-who-can-be-a-catalyst-to-executing-a-business-strategy ploy. Quixtar/Amway is already competing with its IBOs in the makeup market and in no doubt looking to exit the IBO strategy all together. Yet there are thousands of IBOs who rely on the income they generate, no matter how small, and believed that Quixtar/Amway would continue their current IBO course for generations. They are out of luck. By using Orrin, Quixtar/Amway is creating a