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Alticor Media Blog is the official news weblog from the Alticor family of companies.
October 12th, 2007 @ 2:30 pm ET…
Guerrillas in the midst
You can post a comment or trackback from your own site.
Yes, we did.
We filed suit this week in Ottawa County, Michigan seeking to learn more about a number of “John Does” who have cropped up online since our dispute with Orrin Woodward and TEAM began.
Because we believe we can prove that some of their sites and posts were engineered or directed by Woodward, TEAM, their lawyers or their PR agency. And that those sites were purposely used to post material that violates a court order.
To us, this is a necessary measure in a commercial dispute. Because we believe the TEAM machine has been fighting dirty, abusing the online discussion and end-running the court.
(It’s also a necessary step in a technical sense – the companies that host these sites will not divulge information without a subpoena. You can’t get a subpoena without going to court. So if you want to demonstrate that Blogger X’s “spontaneous” site is actually part of a planned-and-paid-for strategy of commercial attack… that’s the road you have to go down.)
So we are seeking to support the legal system – and not attack First Amendment speech. Tough line to walk, but we’ll walk it. Because we believe in both principles.
It could very well be that some of these sites truly are spontaneous, just angry citizens independently voicing their opinions without direction from anyone else. We have no problem with those folks. We don’t want their money, we regret wasting their time and we will even offer to reimburse their costs.
There are plenty of individuals out there posting critical comments about our company, on this site and others. We welcome the debate and value their opinions. (Don’t believe that? Scan through the 4,000 comments of all stripes we’ve posted here since August.)
But e-guerrillas who won’t own up to being bought and paid for in a commercial dispute so they can end-run a court of law are another matter. We invite them to come on out – and fight in broad daylight.
Filed by: Corporate Communications
Posted in: Alticor, Amway, Quixtar, Transformation
October 12th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
Reimburse their costs?
Which costs are you talking about?
The costs to answer to the subpoena?
October 12th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
I’ve been reading thses posts for awhile now…and i’ve got to say that somebody been sleeping or on drugs..there has been more neg remarks about team then anything else. i’ve haven’t seen anything from team members that would have been from ” bought and paid for” people on here or anywhere else. So stop that BS and just wait till the dust settles
My 2cts
October 12th, 2007 at 2:59 pm
I can’t believe that a company the size of Alticor cannot hire a professional writer for this blog. The articles here are so accusatory and condemning even before the facts are known. So much hatred and anger. And from a company, no less. How did this get so personal? Can’t you just make a plain statement of your intentions without all the innuendo? You’re playing the same game of which you accuse TEAM. So unprofessional.
October 12th, 2007 at 3:13 pm
whoever #2,
One of the groups accused the other of being an illegal pyramid. One of the groups got their cases thrown out of court. One of the groups broke rules and wanted to break more on their way out the door. Why is it you have a problem with facts, because they are not on your side?
cmon.people.think #3,
Want some cheese with that whine?
October 12th, 2007 at 3:26 pm
Good luck alticor-Quixtar/Amway…
I would like to see with the blogs just go team… and alike how in the world you plan on pulling that off…
October 12th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
WOW this is great hahahaha like orrin or any of the leaders on team would have the time to writ BLOGS. Half of this crap is all opion or I should say most of this is. What is alticore 6 years old or something throw me a friggin bone none of the leaders on team have time to set up little blogs everyone truley involved with team knows exactly where we are headed so the blogs mean nothing to us
LARGEST CORP. IN THE WORLD IS COMING IF YA CAN’T BEAT UM JOIN UM!!!
October 12th, 2007 at 3:33 pm
chris #5,
It’s pretty easy when you have an existing court order against TEAM.
October 12th, 2007 at 3:51 pm
Alticor/Quixtar/Amway has made so many enemies this year. Does it really matter who hates you on any given blog?
Anyway, two questions…
Who at Amway leaked to the media (against the judge’s orders) that Eric Scheibeler “recanted” and “admitted” that he lied? It was either him or Amway. I would bet it was Amway, not him.
Secondly, did Amway/Quixtar purposely misrepresent the team tool agreement in court documents? Your filing showed a team contract with a ‘no compete’ clause in it. They state that there was NEVER a no-compete clause in their contracts. Was that a mistake on your part or just another diversion tactic?
October 12th, 2007 at 3:54 pm
ALTICOR BLOGGER, thanks again for a well written, very appropriate, even-toned post. You are doing a fantastic job.
And thanks to Alticor Legal for defending the rights of the vast majority of us who want to develop our businesses without interference from the malcontents. You may not be able to say that, but I can, and will.
October 12th, 2007 at 3:57 pm
MichMan: Why not ask your Scheibeler question on the Scheibeler post? Or the no-compete question in any of the nearly two dozen TEAM-related posts that deal directly with that very issue? Your first question–now that’s a question for this post. And thank you for asking.
October 12th, 2007 at 4:10 pm
fuddman #6,
If Orrin and Co. have done nothing, they have nothing to be afraid of, but if they did, they should be afraid. Very afraid.
MichMan #8,
Yes, it does matter. Did you read the court order?
Regarding Scheibeler, all the corp did was report what was already in the news.
Regarding the non-compete, the document may have been the most recent the corp had. The bigger question is whether the “keep secret” clause is still in the contract, because I believe that is the root issue in the entire Orrin and Co. fiasco, and the corp’s main challenge in the future.
October 12th, 2007 at 4:11 pm
Moderator,
Just curious. Why Ottawa County?
October 12th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
(Moderator, this comment is to you specifically, not for the forum… Although I disagree with many things from the corporation, you have allowed a lot open and frank discussion. I can at least respect you all for that. Cheers. )
October 12th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
hey moderator,
I never did get my email apologizing for YOUR remarks as a Texas court ordered you to send out…and I think the judge told you to remove all disparaging remarks about MY business from your blogs…did you guys get that thrown out ? if so, my apologies and you should have stated that victory here…
if not, where is it ?
October 12th, 2007 at 4:22 pm
#13 MichMan: Thanks, and hope we read your comment correctly — that it was okay for us to post.
October 12th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
Thanks again for the update!!! I haven’t really said this on any blog, but I appreciate you all (Quixtar/Amway) enforcing the rules and fighting for the IBOs who love this business and the opportunity it has given us!!!
#3 cmon.people.think
I’m not really sure why you’re attacking this post . . . the person who wrote the article was only keeping everyone up to speed as to what is going on at this point. They made it very clear that they have no problem with people writing negative comments or blogs. They only suspect (they did not say they were certain, but I would assume they have evidence or they couldn’t get the subpoena) that certain blogs were set up or paid for by the plaintiffs in the court case. That would (as they pointed out) violate the court order.
October 12th, 2007 at 4:30 pm
G, can you resubmit? We hit the wrong button.
October 12th, 2007 at 4:32 pm
CC: Actually, I believe MichMan preferred we sit on that one. Our apologies, MichMan, if we screwed that up.
October 12th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
I would also be interested in knowing why the venue chosen was Ottawa County.
There are also several other sites that appear to be operated by the same individuals/groups that were not named in the lawsuit.
October 12th, 2007 at 4:47 pm
#18,
If that’s the case, can’t you just take comment #13 out?
October 12th, 2007 at 4:48 pm
dannie #14,
Perhaps that case was one of those thrown out or expired. In any event, I’m sure Orrin’s crack team of lawyers are on top of it, just like they succeeded with the main lawsuit.
Admin/CC 15/8,
I think you did screw up, MichMan never intended for us to see his “softer” side.
CC #17,
Now you’ve got me sitting on the edge of my chair, wondering what G thinks about all of this.
October 12th, 2007 at 4:49 pm
Shaun #19,
You have a copy of the lawsuit?
October 12th, 2007 at 4:50 pm
Bridgett #20,
You mean this one?
MichMan Says:
October 12th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
(Moderator, this comment is to you specifically, not for the forum… Although I disagree with many things from the corporation, you have allowed a lot open and frank discussion. I can at least respect you all for that. Cheers. )
October 12th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
Dear Quixtar: Why are you NOW deciding to claim how tough you are? Where were you when Dateline was ripping IBO’s to shreds? Where were you as Scott Larson was incorrectly attacking your business on the front page of google searches? Are you guys stupid or scared to death that Orrin might defeat you in the market place? ( ) that space is for Tex(Alticor mailroom employee of the year) to rant about how clueless I am.
October 12th, 2007 at 4:58 pm
[…] filed a lawsuit today in Ottawa County against 30 anonymous website owners and bloggers including the operators […]
October 12th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
Tex: G’s comment was caught in our spam trap. It’s out, now, and was meant for the ‘Spaghetti’ post to begin with. CC has had a long day.
And, uh, no need to exacerbate the issue. And as for why Ottawa County, we’ll find out.
October 12th, 2007 at 5:13 pm
Alticor/Quixtar/Amway Corporate - you have GOT to be kidding!
The opinions posted by these John Does DO NOT violate the court orders you referenced - or any other court order I’m aware of! So how does ANY of this material constitute an “end run around a court of law?!”
Tex #7 & #11, NL #16 - read the above. Did you read the court orders? Apparently not.
Speaking of contempt of court - how about that court order that ordered YOU to remove all disparaging comments about TEAM from your websites and blogs - the same order that required you to email of copy of itself to all IBOs? Did you do either of those things? Does completely ignoring a court order constitute an “end run around a court of law?”
You believe TEAM has been fighting dirty? Have you looked in a mirror lately?
“Necessary measure in a commercial dispute?” Please! I cannot believe what I’m reading! I may have disagreed with you before, but of all the asinine, imbecilic, absurd, immature and spiteful things you could have done -
Congratulations. You have just earned another resignation.
October 12th, 2007 at 5:18 pm
Interesting how Corp is now attempting to litigate the www court of public opinion … frankly, many of the sites indicated in filing are not ones I was even aware of - that sort of messes up the vast conspiracy theory, doesn’t it?
This latest attempt to go beyond spin & control dissent outside corporate controlled blogs is likely to make even more of a heyday for those who thought this was a cult all along.
“Don’t type that blog - drink the kool-aid!”
btw Tex - The lawsuit is linked in 1st sentence of 2nd paragraph (if you can call the 1st sentence a paragraph)
October 12th, 2007 at 5:20 pm
Common Sense, in case you didn’t notice, there’s been some management changes at Alticor and Quixtar since Dateline. And I seriously doubt that they are ‘afraid’ of anyone, but they appreciate ensuring that legal contracts and court orders are enforced. Hopefully, nothing for you to be afraid of.
Best wishes,
October 12th, 2007 at 5:20 pm
Common Sense #24,
I can’t believe someone with your name would ask such a question, but I digress….
The corp knew they wouldn’t get a fair shake on those kinds of shows, and determined it was the lesser of two evils to not appear on it, and just issue a statement.
Larsen is a nut. He comes up with timely stories (such as the new Britt lawsuit), but his analyses generally stink. Sometimes it is best to walk away from a skunk, he has his First Amendment rights, you know. Even if he now lives overseas.
You took all the space needed to prove how clueless you are to me.
Admin #25,
Hey, it’s either that or torture small animals.
Feel free to remove my post if you want, no problem.
October 12th, 2007 at 5:23 pm
“Captain” in case you weren’t reading, the Texas case in question is being reheard, regardless of Ron Simmon’s hair splitting post at the IBOAI blog. However, Ron did make a good point regarding that complaint, in that good Judge Bush’s decision was actually a “recommendation” to a sitting judge to review, and which could be challenged by Quixtar, which they did.
October 12th, 2007 at 5:24 pm
Captain #26,
You’re clueless.
Q has every right to get a subpoena to check into all of these sites, it is the only way they can find out if the court order is being complied with.
I already address your other court order, but I guess it doesn’t matter now, you’re leaving.
Bub-bye.
G #27,
Thanks for the tip, I missed it.
October 12th, 2007 at 5:32 pm
#26 Captain:
Buh-bye.
October 12th, 2007 at 5:42 pm
#26 Captain
Actually, I just read the court document from Kent County, MI; did I miss something?
October 12th, 2007 at 5:50 pm
rdknyvr #28 - Certainly they appreciate ensuring that court orders are enforced .. except those they disagree with.
rdknyvr #30 - Who’s talking about any Texas case? I am, as well as A/Q/A Corporate is, referring to the court orders linked in the post.
Tex #31 = You’re the clueless one, buddy. Why would they need subpoenas to ensure court orders are being complied with when no court orders are being violated in the first place? None of the material posted violates any court order, so it matters not who posted them.
October 12th, 2007 at 5:54 pm
NL #33 - Did you miss something? I don’t know.
Now that you’ve read the 3 court orders from Kent County, can you see any way where any material posted on any of the blogs listed in Q’s latest suit violates any of these court orders?
It may be me that’s missing something here … but I just don’t see it.
October 12th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
Hey thanks for all the new websites I didn’t know about until your lawsuit.
I have so much free time on my hands these days since I stopped showing plans or placing orders.
October 12th, 2007 at 6:17 pm
Captain #26
Did you read the court orders? apparentlly you like to see things that dont exsist.
The tro saying that quixtar had to remove all those remarks was thrown out.
Yes I do belive Team is fighting dirty, throwing bogus law suits that have no merit,
Thats dirty.
And judging from your comments from before, you resigned already.
October 12th, 2007 at 6:23 pm
Cool Quixtar.
do a google search for “freetheibo, jthompson” and you will see dozens of bloggers at freetheibo respond to many of my 80 comments, but you will not find me, b/c all my comments were deleted. Same for freetheibo, etc….
Also i posted a few comments at some of these John Doe sites - like blog.freetheibo - and none of my respectful/disagreeing comments have been posted.
Many of these TEAM blog sites believe in freedom of speech if its Pro-Team
Quixtar, good job!
JT - Gods Big Picture by Ladonna Osborn
October 12th, 2007 at 6:44 pm
To Funny Bradley/Alticor
Are you Kidding??
Lets see http://chrismcstu.blogspot.com has not added anything since Aug 21 and all he did was cut and paste letters from Chuck G and Ron Simmons..and some other letter.
http://integrityisteam.blogspot.com has not added commentary since September 19th. This is just another website of IBO REBELLION he signed of on the posts.
http://Quixtartoday.blogspot.com hasn’t posted since August 31st and there is a gigantic picture of him and contact information. You would think Alticor/Q/A could figure out who he is since he was an emerald at one time.
Please when you locate him let him know your Amway soon so he can fix his website name. Clearly know one has let him know it will be Amway soon.
http:// quixtarlostmycents.blogspot.com what is she doing? unfairly disparaging Quixtar? its product and prices? I would say she wanted to defend Quixtar, but your product and prices just didn’t come out ahead. Most fascinating is pricing differences between canada and the USA. Man, I would be ticked off if I was Canada.
Oh and by the way she tells you who she is right on the website, very easy to contact her or find out who she is. Still can’t find out who she is? Write a comment asking she responds back? Interesting concept asking? instead of a lawsuit.
I could go on and on but I want to go watch all the U Tube videos listed in the suit.
TaTa.
And your lawsuit, goood luck.
October 12th, 2007 at 7:24 pm
Since I don’t follow several of those sites, I was surprised who is on the list and who isn’t.
My favorite site, other that then the IBOAI and ADA-tudes sites, was not on the list. Of course it posts both sides and the guy has his name on it. This site by Alticor is the least accurate. They should have hired the guy the IBOAI did for there blog. Nice professional guy being paid. I don’t always agree with JB, but he deserves thumbs up. The people that run ADA-tudes are typically pretty good, except when they quote this one.
I certainly have not seen anyone on any of the site I have seen, promote a competing MLM, other than one person trolling from a other company that wasn’t an IBO or team member. The rumor I complained about someone picking up here and Tex lying about.
I certainly have said good things about both sides.
I personally think this latest move by Alticor will hurt them more than help.
They certainly know who I am and what my primary business is. Is this blog going to pay me the $6k of reduced net revenue from last month from my other business, (not related) that I blame on this whole mess, especially those real friendly emails that Q/A sends?
October 12th, 2007 at 9:10 pm
I just read the lawsuit. If Q/A think the other blogs are killing their business. They are so wrong. Their blog and Tex whoever you are can take that credit. Team or my upline have never once told me to do about resigning. They informed me to do what I thought was best for my family. Thanks Q/A you have made my decision for me. I have resigned!!!!
October 12th, 2007 at 10:10 pm
Hey tex…I bet your subpoena is on its way!
October 12th, 2007 at 10:20 pm
Hey Alticor–Will you reimburse me for my lost income since you’ve decided to take your company into the gutter? Let’s see, my Quixtar bonus for the month of October looks like it will be down about 90%, based on the current state of my group PV. Guess I might as well resign too–it seems no one in my groups want to do business with people like you. Get a clue.
And all you Q/A/A defenders out there–are you insane? If ANY other company put out crap like this, you would be screaming bloody murder. Me thinks you all deserve each other! Suing JOHN DOE!!?!?!! Just how do you serve him?
October 12th, 2007 at 10:25 pm
Tex,
we are not affraid. It will be fine. Things always work out somehow..why do you care anyway? You can not stand Team just get over it and be gone….
October 12th, 2007 at 10:33 pm
I would like to see both Q/A and Team sit down and hammer this thing out. If Q/A doesn’t want Team and Team doesn’t want Q/A then just make it happen.Anyone can see that all this hype is causing harm to both sides. Set your pride aside and let both paties move on to bigger and better things.
The comments I read on all of these blogs make for a good read but don’t sway me one way or the other. I’m disappointed that this matter has reached this point.
October 12th, 2007 at 10:58 pm
jthomptson said: “Also i posted a few comments at some of these John Doe sites - like blog.freetheibo - and none of my respectful/disagreeing comments have been posted. Many of these TEAM blog sites believe in freedom of speech if its Pro-Team”
I could say the same about the IBOAI site. The IBOAI Blog would not comment on IBOAI relations with AQA while negotiations were on going.
So after the new agreement was signed, I asked three questions:
1- What specific points were being negotiated? And how did the negotiations come out? What did the rank and file IBO “win”?
2- Regarding the Amway’s new bonus money being offered only to IBOs in “accredited” tool systems. How many Board members belonged to tool systems that would not even qualify for the bonuses?
3- Would the Board be releasing a statement as to why Don Held resigned weeks after the TEAM fiasco?
They banned me for “asking negative questions.”
October 12th, 2007 at 10:59 pm
How funny.
First off Quixtar, I didn’t even know about several of the websites listed in the suit so thanks for the added reading and videos to watch.
Secondly, on page 5 of the suit, you claim that the defendants have an interest in another MLM….GIVE ME A BREAK! GIVE IT UP Q. There has been no talk of any other MLM and you haven’t been able to prove anything yet concerning another MLM so drop it. It’s a mute point.
Thirdly, this blog is doing more damage to your company than all the other blogs out there. The attitude of the writer of this blog is terrible. People are looking at how you are handling this situation and how you deal with the IBOs in general….NEITHER are good. The Q corporate lawyers are the ones turning IBOs against Q not all of those sites you listed.
Fourth, I have never been told what to buy, not buy from Quixtar, resign or renew with Quixtar. People have simply posted online what they have chosen to do which gives others the ablility to make a decision on seeing both sides of the battle (seeing how Q handles things and how IBOs respond). If you think someone posting prices online compared to the competion’s products disparages Qs products then maybe Q needs to reevaluate its prices….OH WAIT THAT WAS WOODWARD’S COMPLAINT FOR THE PAST 2 YEARS!!!
Q, you are losing a ton of money and IBOs so I can understand trying to shut down all the negative websites concerning the TEAM lawsuit. One problem though, for every site that you get shut down 1-2 will pop up that is started by one of the 100K+ mad IBOs that YOU threatened with your emails and actions. As you said, you don’t care about those that are expressing their right to Freedom of Speech so as you see more come online please don’t sue them too.
I’m still an IBO (have been for 13 years) and will be at least until 12/31/07 but the way the corp is handling this and the massive changes they are making is causing me to doubt my renewal. Oh well, life will go on, not sure about Amway though as an MLM. Maybe Amway the supplier of products to retail outlets will….something to think about.
October 12th, 2007 at 11:12 pm
Read the Ada-tudes new post:
http://adatudes.opportunityzone.com/2007/10/12/A-New-Direction-for-Quixtar-Sales.aspx
Some good info. Someone at Quixtar really cares. Perhaps it is just Alticor that doesn’t seem to.
October 12th, 2007 at 11:16 pm
Steve #48
I believe Q had retailing on its “mind” all along. That path has been made before - Watkins, Tupperware. I’m sure there are others.
This blog is almost as good as any afternoon soap opera. AS the MLM churns; Quixtar knows best; or how about - the price IS ripe
October 12th, 2007 at 11:47 pm
Captain #35,
The corp needs a subpoena to investigate whether the various blog activities violate the court order. The blog companies don’t give up the private information regarding who is behind the blogs unless they receive a subpoena.
bbb #42,
Bub-bye.
whoever #43,
Where are they going to send it?
LisBette #44,
That’s the purpose of the subpoenas, to find out who the John Doe’s are.
Negative Nancy #45,
I think you’re severely confused, I am an IBO, it is YOU who should go away. Just Go TEAM.
Mike in VA #46,
It will be over soon. Once this thing hits arbitratrion, it will get VERY quiet….except for the screaming in the back room….
MichMan #47,
If you can believe it, even I was “banned” from the IBOAI blog.
This organization doesn’t represent me, and I encourage every single IBO to ask for their $9 back.
Steve $48,
If there is no other MLM in the works, why did Orrin ask to break the 6 month rule?
The corp is doing a fine job with this blog, take your comments somewhere else.
Don’t hold your breath out Amway products showing up in retail outlets. On second thought….
October 13th, 2007 at 12:02 am
Tex….instead of wasting your time on here why dont you work your business….oh yea thats right nobody wants to join amway!
October 13th, 2007 at 12:07 am
matthew #38 - Yes, I read the court orders. No, the Texas TRO was not thrown out. The Texas TRO was granted, and it set a date for a hearing on a preliminary injunction - two different, but related, things.
Q was given 24 hours after being notified of the TRO to send a copy of the order to all IBOs and to remove all disparaging remarks pending the hearing for the preliminary injunction. Yes, when the hearing was held … several weeks later … it was dismissed - but not on merit, rather on venue.
Regardless, Q was supposed to abide by the TRO until the hearing was held … which they didn’t do. Talk about thumbing their nose at the judge, the court and the legal system!
Yes, Q claims to support the legal system - but, obviously, not if it rules against them.
October 13th, 2007 at 12:10 am
#48 Steve said: There has been no talk of any other MLM and you haven’t been able to prove anything yet concerning another MLM so drop it. It’s a mute point.
Um, isn’t TEAM, the Leadership Development Service Provider, an MLM?
October 13th, 2007 at 12:21 am
#51 Tex
What exactly IS the $9 for?
October 13th, 2007 at 12:21 am
Tex #51 - Boy, you seriously need to get a clue. Perhaps you didn’t understand what I said. Perhaps if I talked a little s-l-o-w-e-r or a little LOUDER, maybe you could understand. Let’s try this:
Point #1 - THE IS NO MATERIAL ON ANY OF THE FORUMS OR BLOGS CITED THAT VIOLATE ANY COURT ORDER.
Point #2 - THE PURPOSE OF THE SUBPOENAS IS TO DISCOVER THE IDENTITY OF THE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MATERIAL ON THESE FORUMS AND BLOGS.
Point #3 - THEY DON’T NEED TO DISCOVER ANYONE’S IDENTITY TO ENSURE THAT COURT ORDERS ARE BEING COMPLIED WITH, SINCE IT IS OBVIOUS FROM A CURSORY EXAMINATION OF THE POSTED MATERIAL THAT NO COURT ORDERS ARE BEING VIOLATED - *REGARDLESS* OF WHO POSTED THE MATERIAL.
There - is that better? Can you follow that reasoning? Do you understand now?
I hope so.
October 13th, 2007 at 12:50 am
Utah #49,
I think they may chat every once in a while. Just a guess though.
Lee #50,
You want to hold your breath, too?
whoever #52,
How long did it take to come up with that one?
Captain #53,
If Q is so bad, why doesn’t Orrin’s highly paid lawyers balk?
Bridgett #54/5,
I think their point is the leadership information does not compete with Q, which I agree with, by the way. However, this doesn’t explain why Orrin and Co. filed the lawsuit.
The $9 supposedly supports the costs of running the IBOAI. I think they have more than enough tool scam money and don’t need mine.
Captain #56,
Boy, you seriously need to get a clue. Perhaps you didn’t understand what I said. Perhaps if I talked a little s-l-o-w-e-r or a little LOUDER, maybe you could understand. Let’s try this:
Point #1 - WRONG, if the information was supported or suggested by Orrin and Co.
Point #2 - Correct. See point #1.
Point #3 - WRONG. See point #1.
There - is that better? Can you follow that reasoning? Do you understand now?
I hope so.
October 13th, 2007 at 1:27 am
#57 Tex,
I guess it depends on how you read rule 6.5.1.
Does “products or services functionally interchangeable with those offered or marketed by the Corporation.” apply to both (a) and (b), or just(b)?
If both, then the CDs, books, etc. are not competing products.
If only (b), then (a) is a stand-alone criteria and would mean ANY and ALL MLMs are against the rules.
6.5.1. For purposes of this Rule 6.5, “Compete” means to own, manage, operate, consult for, be employed by, or participate as an independent distributor in (a) any other direct sales program using a multilevel or “network” marketing structure, or (b) any other enterprise that markets, through independent distributors, products or services functionally interchangeable with those offered or marketed by the Corporation.
October 13th, 2007 at 1:33 am
#57 Tex
What ARE the costs of running the Board? That’s what I don’t know.
Having a website?
Travel costs when they go to ADA for their meetings?
Let’s say that 600,000 IBOs pay the $9. That’s $5.4 million.
October 13th, 2007 at 1:49 am
I am not part of team therefore there are many things I “don’t” know about what is happening on the team side of things.
This much I do know. Orrin and Chris really put themselves out front as the leaders of team. If Orrin and Chris were really “leading” team and they were the great leaders they purport to be; then they are responsible for what is being done, said and represented by the organization they lead.
I also know they brought one of the most vicious lawsuits in history, against this business and every IBO that stands with Quixtar. They took confidential information from the IBOAI and the company and used it in their lawsuit. This information was given to them after they signed non-disclosure agreements that they would keep all information shared with them confidential. Where is the integrity in that?
If you give your word that you will agree to something, that should be enough. When you give your word that you will agree to something and sign a formal document; then the courts have a record and can order you to return that information and forbid you from using it in further proceedings. Of course that doesn’t do much good if the “genie” is already out of the bottle.
They filed frivoulous TRO’s all over the country that are a tremendous waste of everyone’s time. They even stooped so low as to hire Ashton Partners (Jennifer Granholm’s P.R. firm). They have put unbelievably negative things on You Tube to try and goad and discredit anyone who is not in their camp. There is no integrity in that; the only way to describe their conduct is diabolical.
They have huffed and puffed and tried to blow all our houses in. It appears they were willing to try “anything”; regardless of how cruel it was, to win their so-called freedom. If they throw out all restraint and still fail, what is there next move? It wouldn’t surprise me if they tried to come back to the company and said, “Sorry, we were just kidding!!!”; while they sang the Beatles song, “We Can Work It Out”! Remember; the end, does not justify the means!
They are not the first in the vast history of this great business to “stack” or as they describe it; “depth build”, and they probably won’t be the last. They claim that they have this unique leadership training that is the best in the history of this business.
I believe there are a lot of organizations that do a great job and give some of the original leaders in the field and Rich and Jay the credit for developing the spirit that still permeates this business. That spirit and set of values was in this business a long time before Orrin and Chris came on the scene and God willing will still be in this business long after we are all gone.
I don’t know these two; but I believe they must have some great leadership qualities. I also know that they have been driving this whole mess and are responsible for the things that happen in team.
I understand that everyone in any organization wants to believe that their upline; their leaders are the best. I’m sure Orrin and Chris have many wonderful attributes. I also know that if you look at some of the obvious facts in this case, they also have some very devious attributes.
Neither the company nor team is without some guilt in this and there are lots of things that need to be fixed in any large organization. How we go about fixing those things is the real test of leadership. I think if we read between the lines, we all can figure out what team’s real motive in this thing was and it was a long way from Quixtar being an illegal pyramid. That was a preposterous stretch at best.
October 13th, 2007 at 3:34 am
Steve #48
Thanks for saving me a lot of typing, I feel exactly the same way, except I may not wait till Dec. 31
Tex 57
“I think their point is the leadership information does not compete with Q, which I agree with, by the way. However, this doesn’t explain why Orrin and Co. filed the lawsuit”.
Would you like to know why it doesn’t explain it? Because this is not a tool profit issue. That’s what I was saying before, you’re looking at this situation the wrong way. Not a tool profit issue, Q pricing issue. Simple, if Q’s pricing structure makes it illegal then it cannot enforce it’s contracts, so no non-compete or solicitation rules should be enforced.
Honestly you do post like you’re being paid to. You know how silly you look repeating stuff after a number of people have corrected you?
October 13th, 2007 at 7:06 am
Steve Says:
October 12th, 2007 at 10:59 pm
I agree completely. Who is going to pay us for the damage this Alticore site has done to our business. I am embarrased and sad, I am mad, I am ashamed of a company I have put my life into, since 1969. This is worse than a divorce or death in the family. This is an emotional & financial drain that is unreal.
October 13th, 2007 at 7:49 am
rdknyvr#31: Where do you get your facts that my Texas case is being reheard?
This is simply not true - no matter what the corporate communication bloggers say.
They know it is not true but if they choose to mislead and misrepresent then they choose whatever consequences result from that.
October 13th, 2007 at 9:09 am
The Big Q,
If you do not like my comments, then COME AND GET ME! I am currently in the Middle East DEFENDING my country against ALL enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC. Against ANYONE who wants to trample on the BILL OF RIGHTS, and try to squelch the FREEDOM OF SPEECH. I have served 10 years defending AMERICA, and I will not stop blogging as that is my only weapon against the injustice of SLAVERY and HIGH PRICES! What you don’t understand is that no one is paying me to write, no one has told me to write. I will not leave a fallen comrade behind, (Orrin Woodward, Chris Brady, etc.), if blogging is my only weapon against tyranny and oppression, then I shall pick it up and fight to the death! (This is where Tex comments that TEAM is dying, he’ll be happy to plant the sword in my chest, the TEAM is falling apart… yadaydayda… ya.. ok.. whatever)
October 13th, 2007 at 9:38 am
Bridgett #58,
I think the words you quoted apply only to (b), but I consider TEAM to fit the description of (a), so they lose. Thanks for pointing that out, I had not read that rule carefully for a while. You’re right, it includes all MLM and also any “…”network” marketing structure….”
Bridgett #59,
One would think if they are our “business partners” and “teammates”, as they like to claim, it would be appropriate for them to tell us what their costs are and where the money goes. But as in the tools, they feel they are above any transparency. They are supposed to be a non-profit outfit, so there must be some nice parties and meeting locations.
pvbvguy,
It doesn’t do much good if the genie is out of the bottle, but it does determine the level of punishment assigned by the arbitration proceedings.
First of all, I think it is too late for them to come back to their previous positions, and Q may not even let them come back in if they started at the bottom of a leg.
I’ve seen their leadership training, it’s nothing special. Of course they had “some” leadership qualities (organization, inspirational, etc.), but used these qualities for bad, not for good. History is full of other examples, such as dictators and terrorists.
The “illegal pyramid” claim didn’t stick, but it sure paid Orrin’s lawyers well.
AEM #61,
Bub-bye. And good riddance.
I’m not concerned about the “illegal pyramid” charge, Orrin won’t get to first base on that charge in arbitration. It’s a non-issue.
Monette #62,
You can blame the lying cowardly “kingpins” and their tool scam. You can also blame A/Q for not following through after the 1983 “Directly Speaking” tapes. We are now reaping what was sowed.
You can’t change the past. What are you going to do now and in the future?
Ron #63,
I don’t care about your lawsuit. If Orrin and Co., with much bigger businessses and pins, and being terminated IBO’s when they filed their lawsuit, got booted into arbitration, do you honestly expect not to end up in arbitration?
I also don’t care what someone who doesn’t answer simple tool profit questions has to say. You are a lying cowardly “kinpin”, Ron.
October 13th, 2007 at 10:16 am
I have been able to attend both a team open/nightowl and planning session (prior to everything) and now a meeting where Quixtar representatives talked. Taking into account the versions I have heard from both sides, here were some thoughts that popped into my head (somewhat in a timeline):
Even before all this stuff with team we all got communication that Quixtar was done allowing people to trash their name and was stepping up their efforts. They are putting around $25 million into advertising, etc. Is this a result of the team, or did this start because of the people like Bo Short and happens to be coming to full fruition at this time? Kind of like the teams lawsuit, the amount of effort that would go into the products and advertising couldn’t really happen overnight could it?
I heard a ton about the teams growth, and we won’t know until the end of the year numbers come out, but Quixtar has been stuck at around a billion dollars the last couple years. So did the team growth also include Quixtar growth? If not, (and if Quixtar’s growth numbers this year don’t somewhat correlate with the team it would be a good indication) could that be a reason Quixtar would look at the team tools as a competing business?
I learned about the accredidation process a little. Based on the team materials I had listened to (probably about 22 CD’s, a couple videos and a couple books) I’m guessing most of that would have to be edited since much of it talked “around” Quixtar. Two part question:
1) Could “full disclosure” be the main problem the team had? I’ve compared prices and the Simply Nutrilite and XS lines are cheaper than “quality” competitors prices (for example Red Bull, not some 99 cent can of sugar). I’ve always had a problem with prices, but if the team is in the “sports nutrition” business (as I was told we were going to focus on) and these products are fairly priced, what other “Quixtar” reasons is there since I never heard pyramid on any team materials over all the years until the lawsuit?
2) My impression of Quixtar prior to what they are doing now would be like Ray Kroc selling all him McDonalds and saying, “OK, you have to use our food, but you can set up the store any way you like, solicit business any way you like, and basically run your McDonalds any way you see fit without using our system. All you have to do is purchase our food. If Quixtar wants to clean up its image, and most (if not all) of their lawsuits I’ve seen prior to the teams revolves around tool business, wouldn’t it make sense to create a “system” where everyone is on the same page?
Here is my biggest question that popped up since I couldn’t get answers from my upline on the team……What am I missing? I think both Quixtar and the team are very successful, very rich organizations that butted heads (kind of like a church split). I will not say I agree 100% with either side. But I was fortunate enough to listen to both sides. From Orrin and Chris (again, prior to the lawsuits) and from my sponsor, Platinum and up through Diamond I was told we are a sports nutrition business, we are starting people on a ditto of XS and food bars (that was promoted at our Opens and now Simply Nutrilite adds more cost effective ways to do this also), and as people get started and have success then they will buy more. It just seems like Orrin and the team, who had years of success before XS, etc., were sitting at a perfect position for what I was told we are telling people our product line was, EXCEPT for having to come into compliance with the accredidation process. Am I way off base?
October 13th, 2007 at 10:28 am
This story has a good explanation of the nature of lawsuit. I noticed they used “Amway” in the headline, instead of Quixtar.
They also talked with Orrin’s attorney, Poyfair, I’m not sure what he’s getting paid for, he didn’t know much, except that he is talking to “regulators”. Hey, if the Judicial branch slams the door in your face, why not try the Executive branch? He gets paid either way. Next stop, Congress? Can you say cha-ching? Nothing happens in Congress without a LOT of delay. Looks like Poyfair has a career client in Orrin. Cha-ching..cha-ching….
It also explains why the suit was filed in Ottawa County:
http://blog.mlive.com/grpress/2007/10/amway_sues_to_id_source_of_neg.html
October 13th, 2007 at 11:35 am
This is so ironic. We’ve been begging Amway to sue the negative bloggers out there for at least 5 years that I can recall. They just refused to do it. So there is no doubt our business has been hurt as a result of this inaction.
And now, in a wink of an eye, boom! 26 sites sued? Does this show a pattern of selectivity? One could surmise that Amway is treating TEAM with a different standard of action that others.
October 13th, 2007 at 11:40 am
tex # 57
“If Q is so bad, why doesn’t Orrin’s highly paid lawyers balk?”
here’s the link
http://blog.mlive.com/grpress/2007/10/amway_sues_to_id_source_of_neg.html
here’s the interesting part
“Poyfair said he is meeting with regulators to discuss the allegation Quixtar is an illegal pyramid scheme”
seems the FTC may get to look this over…kind of like you meeting with Q attorneys to share your info about the tools, huh ?
October 13th, 2007 at 12:03 pm
Go for it. I’ve been an IBO for 17-years. I love this company and its predecessor. what you guys (the one’s who are not in support) show is that you simply do not understand what is going on, business wise. I don’t claim to know either but I do know that Amway/Quixtar/Alticor et al should begin to protect their brands, reputation, and all that goes with it, whether they win or loose.
I own two small corporations as well as being an IBO. It takes money and deep pockets to protect a reputation. Sometimes, because of my size I have to look the other way. The Alticor family does not need to behave like a small company has to do. They should do everything they can to protect their reputation and their brands. Therefore, I say, go for it guys - sue the heck out of those that deride the company and send a strong signal that criticism without fact is detrimental to everyone.
October 13th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
SPARTAN #64,
Serving in the miltary and protecting the Constitution does not make the exercising of Q’s rights to enforce an existing court order improper. In fact, quite the opposite. You are fighting to protect our judicial system, which is part of the Constitution, to have its role in our government. At ease.
Also, I don’t want to plant a sword in your chest, but I wouldn’t mind hitting you on the head with some common sense. Perhaps some would sink in.
freedom #66,
You’re missing where Orrin, and most of the other A/Q lying cowardly “kingpins” make most of their money, the tool scam.
Bill,
You can’t (successfully) sue someone for exercising their First Amendment rights. But you can if they are violating a court order. Apples and oranges.
It is a different standard, because it is a different scenario.
October 13th, 2007 at 12:27 pm
When reading the suit in the link above, I could not find any place in the suit that says it has anything to do with possible violation of a court order or discovering if it is a PR scheme.
The suit DOES state it is suing people as individuals (and other entities)for “disparaging Quixtar, its products and its pricing.”
Another section states that defendants are being sued for Discouraging prospective IBOs from joining Quixtar by “disparaging Quixtar’s pricing and products.”
On the other hand,
This blog says, “It could very well be that some of these sites truly are spontaneous, just angry citizens independently voicing their opinions without direction from anyone else. We have no problem with those folks. they are doing”.
That is not the case that seems to be made in the suit. You’ve got Quixtar with millions to spend on attorney’s fees going against individuals for disparaging their products and pricing. If the individual loses they pay $25,000 plus Quixtar’s legal fees to sue them.
I understand that the suit contains much more than what is listed here (keep the blogs short rule). But it is there in the fine print, and we know that we’re held accountable for the fine print. The perspective given in the blog, is not appararent when reading the lawsuit.
If they win the suit against individuals I wonder which view will prevail…the lawyers and the suit or what they wrote in this blog? If Quixtar prevails, is the posting Quixtar put in this blog legally binding with the individual bloggers, if it is found the bloggers are not part of a conpiracy theory?
I certainly hope my posting here isn’t intrepreted as disparaging Quixtar - I might be next defendant.
October 13th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
hey, I just wanted to say thank you to all of you writing the suit! some of the things (video’s and sites) that were listed in your suit I hadn’t seen before. I really wanted to congradulate you on making sure I was able to look in one place to since them all now. Thank you for saving me hours and hours of looking when all i have to do now is copy and paste and there they are… and they are b far some of the funniest I have seen.
Thanks again,
Chicago
October 13th, 2007 at 12:40 pm
ok and I can’t spell either, but hey you get my point
October 13th, 2007 at 12:51 pm
A quote from the Grand Rapids Press article posted by Tex # 67.
“Zeiger said the company will apologize and pay any costs incurred by any of the John Does who turn out not to be tied to Woodward and his TEAM organization of distributors.”
Does this mean if the blogger is a member of TEAM then they are part of the conspiracy?
The statement by Zeiger really sounds like just TEAM bloggers are being singled out rather they are part of a Woodward/PR conspiracy or not.
October 13th, 2007 at 12:52 pm
Interesting how you folks decide to welcome debate after a quarter of a century of indifference.
While it’s very nice the corporation has decided to take a stand of sorts, it really doesn’t change the deception and outright lies that YOU allowed to continue for years and years and years.
The ONLY reason that the corporation is even in this ball game now is because the entire world was able to get at the truth as it is, not as what you and your friends running tools systems purported it to be.
So some IBO’s like Tex may look at you folks with stars in their eyes and admire your tenacity and dedication to IBO’s.
People who have half a brain in their head will remember you as the corporation who praised all these “leaders” while they were deceiving IBO’s, and the corporation who didn’t respond to the Dateline expose because you COULDN’T answer questions in an interview that would be able to explain your role.
So spin it however you want. The fact of the matter is the reason you are doing what you are doing is because information control is not as easy as it used to be.
You and your brethren would have been quite content to let things roll along as they always have.
This comment, for instance, would never see the light of day on a corporation blog even a year or two ago. The only difference now is this message can still get out where everyone affected can see it, whether you like it or not.
So don’t pretend to be a champion of free speech when you folks did everything in your power to silence Sidney Schwartz, Scott Larsen et al.
That’s just crap, and you all know it.
October 13th, 2007 at 1:34 pm
this is a frivolous lawsuit. like alticor/quixtar needs any more money. *sigh*
October 13th, 2007 at 1:44 pm
Alticor uses funny logic. They’ve have had a terrible image online for years. Rcently they’ve sent e-mails to thousands of their IBO’s threatening termination, they posted lies and insults about people that thousands of their IBO’s respected very much, and now the new negetive websites must have Team backing them? It wouldn’t make any sense that any of the other thousands of IBO’s they pissed off would start a negetive web site would it?
Personally I liked Alticor a lot till I read “Just go, Team”. Up till that point I had never had a less than professional interaction with them. When I read the complaint Team filed in LA, I really wanted to take it as a truthful, but I knew I had only one side of the story, I wanted to see how the coporation would respond. Their reponse and the allegations made in the suit fit perfectly, while the allegations made by Alticor and what I know of Team didn’t fit at all. While the Team site asked no one to speak negetivly of Amway or Quixtar, Alticor was posting “Just go, Team” and sending out e-mails. We all have different perspectives, but from mine it looks like Alticor has had way more to do with the litter of negetive websites than anythng Team did.
October 13th, 2007 at 1:48 pm
FINALLY…one of your own who is willing to admit their ongoing doubts and honesty about where Q is & how the “golden boys” became the most dangerous thing out there since typhoid fever
http://makingthedecision.blogspot.com/
October 13th, 2007 at 2:16 pm
Alticor/Amway
“People of integrity expect to be believed and when they’re not they let time prove them right.”
Also, “you can’t stop and idea whose time has come.”
Maybe it’s time you dust off the ol mirror have a look. . . and then calm the monster that has so much vengence pent up that they have to go after free thinking individuals who can clearly recognize fact from spin.
October 13th, 2007 at 2:27 pm
dannie #69,
I’m in favor of the FTC getting involved. It’s about time, they should have been involved years ago. I wrote them and talked with them, recommending they shut down the tool scam. Unfortunately, they didn’t get involved, and as far as I know, didn’t get involved even after the UK DTI shut down the tool scam and sponsoring in the UK until this mess goes to court.
The Q lawyers weren’t interested in shutting down the tool scam, that wasn’t their assignment. Their job was to gather evidence I personally witnessed at Opens and a Seminar. I told them about the tool scam, but that wasn’t what they wanted to evidence for.
Rob #70,
Criticism without fact can also be libel and slander. And that can cost you money, and lots of it. Orrin is in deep trouble.
October 13th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
Rico #72,
It’s in paragraph 29.
The reason for the subpoenas is to find out who is behind them, and whether or not these individuals are, or are paid, by Orrin and Co.
As far as “I certainly hope my posting here isn’t intrepreted as disparaging Quixtar - I might be next defendant.”, it all depends on who you are and whether you are being encouraged or paid by Orrin and Co. to post here.
Thanks guys #73,
You’re welcome.
If you’ve seen one of them, you’ve essentially seen all of them. If they aren’t easy for you to find, they won’t be easy for the typical person to find. However, ALL of them were found by Q and are being investigated. Thanks again.
October 13th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
Thanks guys - Your right. I had no idea that was out there. Thanks for putting that all in one place for me!
October 13th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
AEM #78, that’s also how I felt when I read that initial Alticor Blog post, but I also knew from my own previous research that the lawsuit was frivolous and baseless. More and more, it seems possible that the Team leadership didn’t really anticipate that Alticor would call their bluff on their demand for exemption from certain rules, and decide to let Team proceed to file the suit and then defend it. Go have a read of the most recent posts at the IBOAI blog where our friend (if he doesn’t mind being referred to that way by me, a Quixtar supporter) Utah is exchanging points of view with their moderators.
http://www.iboaiblog.com/my_weblog/2007/10/legal-update—.html
At the end of the day, if you are hard core committed to supporting Team leadership regardless of competing points of view, you will color their actions with the paint and hues of your choosing.
Rocket #76 does make a point that Alticor wrongly took it all laying down for too long. But at the same time, you have to give them credit for changing — I love all the Transformation pieces coming together, including admissions from Alticor management that they do have room to improve, and are doing so. Check out the latest post from Todd Krause yesterday about the major make-over to the Sales support team:
http://adatudes.opportunityzone.com/2007/10/12/A-New-Direction-for-Quixtar-Sales.aspx
For myself, I’m delighted that they are finally getting consistent after many years of picking daisy petals (”they love us, they love us not”) and are defending and promoting the integrity of my business.
Which, by the way, has continued to grow the past two months.
October 13th, 2007 at 3:33 pm
Bridgett #54, No TEAM is not an MLM. So like I said, mute point.
AEM #61, I don’t blame you for not waiting till Dec. 31. I sent the proper forms to Q to remove my wife from the business the first week of Sept. It didn’t get processed though until the first week of Oct. They must of had a lot of mail/faxes sitting on top of it that it took so long to get to. My wife will be free the first week of April to do as SHE pleases. I will not be building another business until June 08 at the earliest. I may assist my wife in her business though if I so decide to do so.
Qs own actions are what is causing all of these problems. If they get any site shut down then we as P.Od IBOs and former IBOs should flood the internet with so many blogs that the lawyers wont know where to start. Doing all of this as individuals, free thinking individuals expressing our First Amendment rights of course.
October 13th, 2007 at 3:39 pm
To all of you defending TEAM - doing a fabulous job. To those with some good remarks on either side - well done. To those who haven’t a clue defending Q to the highest, go get a clue including Tex.
I am so dumbfounded at this continual grasping at ’something’ possibly just air by Quixtar that I’m not even sure how to respond. They were court ordered within 24 hours of the order to send an apology out to all IBOs for the slanderous degradation and threatening email they sent out to all IBOs. Has anyone seen or rec’d this apology? I haven’t. I haven’t even received a confirmation of our resignation but we are not in their system any longer. We even mailed our resignation by certified mail. So far, we haven’t received that confirmation either. Knowing who they are, they can and will continue to stoop to the lowest level of battering innocent people, people of character, morals, principals, integrity, and credibiity. They have none of these qualities. They only believe in their court orders, in their own County where they won, not the other counties of Michigan where they lost, and other states courts where they lost. Guess they feel or think they are above those laws and don’t have to believe or respect those. Know they said something about respecting or believing in the legal system somewhere in that extremely childish piece of jibberish. The only integrity there was, was the father’s who developed Amway. They had the integrity and principals to build in a ‘protection’ for the IBO/Distributor first with the ADA originally then becoming the IBOAI, before even developing the Amway Corporation. The sons have gotten lost somewhere along the way, losing what Amway and their fathers stood for. Then lawyers who have no clue what the original Amway was all about got added to the mix. They have become filled with Greed and Power, through marriage, alogn with other entities that aren’t necessarily filled with the belief system we have all been taught by the great leaders of our time, Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Dr. Rohm, John Maxwell, James C Hunger of The Servent, Bruce Wilkinson of The Dream Giver, Gary Chapman of The 5 Love Languages, even C. Mason Weaver of ‘It’s Ok to Leave the Plantation, etc, and of course our own TEAM leadership and their insights and wisdom and Godly manners and thinking and giving. It is such a shame that the people of Quixtar do not see that we are people learning how to live a better life, learn leadership, help others become successful in life and business - it’s not about products. One can get products and services anywhere. One can become a salesperson anywhere and/or create their own sale business if they desire. They are material things. All that has nothing to do with being a Leader and helping build relationships and a better way of life. We feel sorry for them and the road they have chosen. They only know about money & power and think that is the key to life, to control others vs leading others to a better way of life. We believe we live in the United States of America, the land of the FREE, and Home of the BRAVE. Quixtar has lost so many thousands of IBOs…..are they in a form of ‘mental’ shock? They’re not intelligent enough to figure out that there are just that many hurt, disgruntled, angry, frustrated ex-IBOs out here. All current IBOs who are sticking w/Q know is selling product and/or purchasing products & services. All Q knows is their selling Amroids making a little bit of money off and on who are making money for the Empire. We who had the guts to see the truth and leave Q are hurt people who’ve put almost 18 yrs of our life into believing in something only to get kicked and walked on by Q’s total deception. We only hung in there because of our loyalty to our leadership and we will continue to stay loyal to our leadership, our TEAM. It is through them and them alone (of course God first, then TEAM) that we have learned to be better people, treat people better, understand people better, have a better family life, work at bringing our dreams and the dreams of others to fruition.
Quixtar - why you don’t you just leave well enough alone, pick up your toys & go home like good little kiddies. Take time to read your non-sense of a Code of Conduct that is full of contradictions - one rule contradicting another - it’s absolutely nuts! And you who own a couple of your own Corporations, go read rules under #3, #4 and #6 to see if you’re violating their ‘rules.’
Leave us good people alone to go our own ways, wait out the illegal waiting period imposed on us within the last 2-3 yrs by Quixtar, so we can move forward into a bigger and better future. MLM - we’ve never heard of anything new. Our Leaders of people of integrity and character and principal. Q is the one hanging on to all this stupid legal garbage acting worse than 2 yr olds.
Bloggers - Ex-IBOs who are sick of all this mess and control by Quixtar, maybe we all need to flood the Federal Trade Commission with complaints. With enough complaints, maybe they will have to research the Company again - one would hope. Believe they keep going in to check on Q every couple of years every time Q changes the Plan, which Q’s fathers developed the ADA to protect against ie the Nutrilite Corp did to them. They wanted to make sure Amway could not change the Plan on the distributors as Nutrilite corp did to them. Then for your info, they bought out the Nutrilite corp. Nutrilite was not always part of Amway. They were their own entity prior to Amway.
After seeing so many on here defending TEAM, I am hopeful this will be posted. Other Amway/Alticor/Quixtar blog sites that are vicious and degrading to TEAM won’t post anything I’ve submitted (only about 2 cause I don’t spend time at their sites)
We are 100% with the Free, the Faithful, the Hopeful, the Believers, the Visionaries, the Leadership of TEAM!
1 Million and Beyond
FLR/Warrior Princess in Az.
October 13th, 2007 at 3:50 pm
Just came across this article…
Looks like CBS News believes we aren’t independant business owners anymore too, we are now hired to work for Q (where are my benefits!)….
From the 3rd paragraph (capitalization added for emphasis)…
“Quixtar develops and manufactures nutrition, beauty and cleaning products that are marketed in the United States and Canada through a tiered selling system, HIRING entrepreneurs to sell its products.”
Read the full article here…
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/13/business/main3364365.shtml
October 13th, 2007 at 4:11 pm
rico #75,
This isn’t against anyone from TEAM, it depends on whether they were directed, or supported, especially financially, by the folks in the lawsuit, which presumably includes Haugen and Wilson.
Also, from #72, the amount the John Doe figures could be liable for is much more than $25,000, this is the amount of damage that was exceeded, not a limit on the potential fines.
rocket #76,
You are wrong about me. Although I agree with most of what you said, I have never said ANYTHING that could be construed as “So some IBO’s like Tex may look at you folks with stars in their eyes and admire your tenacity and dedication to IBO’s.” I have criticized A/Q, mostly for their lack of following through to the “Directly Speaking” recordings, on this and other blogs, to Q attorneys, and to government regulators.
I could have quit and been like you, one of many detached, uninformed, former IBO’s like yourself, but I felt I would have more influence to change things, and I have by the way, than any former IBO could dream of having.
Bee #77,
This is not so much about winning fines in court, it is about protecting a reputation that is worth billions of dollars.
AEM #78,
You won’t find anything close coming from Quixtar as what is posted on those TEAM web sites. From bloggers like me perhaps, but not from Q. The Go TEAM entry was clearly written against Orrin and Co., not rule following TEAM IBO’s. Nice try, but that dog don’t hunt. Free speech is a beautiful thing.
You see, the corp allows all points of view on their blogs, TEAM doesn’t (neither does the IBOAI, but that’s another story). This will probably cause major legal problems with the TEAM blogs.
Big Bob #80,
“People of integrity expect to be believed and when they’re not they let time prove them right.” —- That’s right, the people of Q expected Orrin and Co. to “fly right” or they would get kicked out, and when they didn’t, over a period of several years, they finally did the right thing and booted them.
Also, “you can’t stop and idea whose time has come.” —- Right again. The idea was to kick Orrin and Co. out, and the time already came, because they’re gone.
SPARTAN #83,
See my post #82, in reponse to #73. You’re welcome as well.
October 13th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
Look, the story made it to the “bigtime”, CBS news:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/13/business/main3364365.shtml
October 13th, 2007 at 5:02 pm
The way most of team members recite the phrase (people of integrity expect to be believed and when they’re not they let time prove them right) you would think that big bad orrin thought that one on his own. Truth be told , Orrin got that one from a LOYAL double diamond in the Yager group.
October 13th, 2007 at 5:05 pm
#86 Fran, happy to have you… FYI that your post was a bit looong. Would prefer seeing comments shortened or at least broken into pieces. Thanks.
October 13th, 2007 at 5:40 pm
capt amway #90
its from a book about business he didnt write it neither did the double diamond.
i think the law suit is to keep the team people off you pages from expressing their opinions. some are still in quixtar still so whats the deal?
very strategic in the legal sense
just my thoughts,
October 13th, 2007 at 6:10 pm
I’ll be surprised if they find a huge conspiracy. So many people have computer skills and it is easy to put up a website and create videos.
The CBS article can’t be good PR for Quixtar. People already distrust large rich corporations. It may easily be intrepreted as abully attacking the little kid.The next generation where IBOs need to come from may identify more with the bloggers in question. That article is out on the web and now part of Quixtar’s legacy, like Amway/Dateline stories.
For their sake, they need to find a conspiracy, if they end up winning against individuals who are former IBOs–they will still lose in the court of public opinion with the You-tube/myspace generation.
October 13th, 2007 at 6:16 pm
rdknyvr #84,
Thanks for posting the link again. I did in 49, but it is worth reading. Ada-tudes blog has a better approach than Alticor.
Friend? I don’t know you, but I will take that as a compliment. I am not sure I am a Quixtar supporter right now, as Q/A has ticked me off but I haven’t told either Team or Q/A to get lost yet. I have $1000 including travel, etc. and $2000 of time riding on the next function. I hope I learn something.
That said, I agree there have been mistakes on both sides, just trying to see where they were. JB @ the IBOAI blog tells you what he thinks to be accurate. It is worth asking him to find out If I miss-read what happened. That doesn’t mean he is always right, but I have respected his answers and posts. There is another person manning the blog there as well.
I am sad in a way that Alticor’s last lawsuit hit the CBS news. It will make the whole country think Q/A are idiots. Perhaps the attorneys are, but there are good people on both sides.
October 13th, 2007 at 7:14 pm
Tex,
Stand up, I think this whole issue is going over your head
October 13th, 2007 at 7:16 pm
Here’s the best comment I found to this.
I find it completely comical for you to demand the bloggers to “come out and fight in the broad daylight.” This from the company who hides in the shadows of arbitration at all cost.
October 13th, 2007 at 9:01 pm
Steve #85,
It doesn’t matter whether TEAM is an MLM or not, it IS a networking organization, so it is still prohibited for at least 6 months.
Fran L #86,
Nice novel. I haven’t read so much that said so little in a long time.
I have stated my issues with Q, but they pale in comparison to TEAM and their tool scam.
I found you dumb as well, you state Q is continually “grasping at ’something’ possibly just air”, then say you don’t know how to respond, so you don’t even know how to grasp? I don’t call court victory after court victory “grasping” in any way, unless you include the certain part of Orrin’s anatomy they are grasping. Tightly.
So they ignored the court order, which may have expired. Where is Orrin’s attorney? Is he crying foul, or crying to the FTC? I hope he gets the FTC involved, then they’ll get to the bottom of the tool scam, as has been done in the UK. I didn’t get an apology, and don’t want one from Q nearly as much as from TEAM and all the other lying cowardly “kingpins” in other LOS/LOA’s.
Bub-bye.
They also won in CA and TX, what are you talking about? You have a deep lack of understanding the current state of affairs and the judicial system in general.
Their fathers stood for something, but never followed through. Now the sons have to clean up the mess, hopefully they can do this before the government shuts them down.
You are toking on some serious stuff if you think Orrin and Co. can be compared to the great ideas and men you mentioned. They are lying cowards, pure and simple.
One can get products and services anywhere? Then go get ‘em.
I agree the rules are far too complex, but Orrin was given several years to make corrections, and kept screwing up the same rules.
It was Orrin who started the legal battle, with his “illegal pyramid” lawsuit.
Yes, please do contact the FTC, we need more focus on the tool scam. The ADA Board never had approval authority, it was always for input.
Princess, there is moss growing on your tarnished crown.
October 13th, 2007 at 9:20 pm
Steve #87,
Do you believe every word CBS, or any other news organization for that matter, writes or says?
Captain Amway #90,
I heard that one from Billy Florence first (you know, former the lying coward of an IBO?), who said it before him? Also, do you wear a cape?
CC #91,
Thank you, that message was painful. Plenty of words, no facts.
rico #93,
Even with the CBS article, this still isn’t exactly front page news, although I’ve noticed the story has been picked up by a LOT of news organizations over the past couple of hours.
Utah #94,
Adatudes and Opportunity Zone are wimpy.
I recommend saving your money and staying home, they will tell you what happened, all you have to do is ask, as TEAM is desperate for membership.
JB on the IBOAI site operates very much like the freetheibo forum. As long as you kiss up to him, you get posted. If you disagree, you get banned, as I did. Remember, he runs a PR outfit, as the freetheibo forum moderator does. In fact, I understand the freetheibo moderator also works for the Michigan Governor, who recently beat Dick DeVos in an election.
AEM #95,
I could lay down and still be ahead of you, standing on your tippy-toes.
Lajinito #96,
You probably would too, if you were a big corp with a reputation to protect.
October 13th, 2007 at 9:55 pm
Looks like Scott Larsen needs to be added to the defendent list, if the subpoenas are successful and a linkage to Orrin and Co. is proven. He will be the first “John Doe” who’s name is known. Way to be stupid again, Scott. Read his last sentence:
http://www.amquix.info/quixtar_youtube_suit.html
October 13th, 2007 at 10:30 pm
c’mon Tex…no response to this site ?
http://makingthedecision.blogspot.com/
especially the paragraphs ( in the first posting 10/1 ) where they state that they NEVER saw any attempts to re-train or remediate anything about Woodward / Brady…maybe because Q did NOT actually do anything of the sort !
and this is coming from someone who didn’t like Team…was glad we were being “finally punished”…but amazingly enough, now that he’s reading both sides of this argument, a few things just don’t add up.
yep…cause Q’s calculator is broke !!
October 13th, 2007 at 10:35 pm
Hey tex The double diamond who said that phrase all the time was scott michael and yes I do wear a cape. I am here to defend and protect against all evil sources.
October 13th, 2007 at 10:48 pm
I noticed several blogs have gone dark, epecially those not listed.
I also noticed the following have picked up this law suit:
WOOD TV 8 Grand Rapids - Oct 13 10:23 AM
AP via Yahoo! News - Oct 13 3:48 PM
CBS News - Oct 13 11:30 AM
WOAI - Oct 13 4:08 PM
Lexington Herald-Leader - Oct 13 3:55 PM
WSYR 9 Syracuse - Oct 13 4:08 PM
The Times of India - 1 minute ago
The Grand Rapids Press - Oct 12 11:43 PM
As of 10:47pm ET
The two that caught my eye were CBS and India.
Is Q/A trying to get more bad press?
October 13th, 2007 at 10:50 pm
Tex #98
Do you believe everything that Amway tells you?
October 13th, 2007 at 11:17 pm
Tex:
TEAM is not desperate for membership. The upcoming conference is already oversold. I don’t recall reading any comments from IBOs stating they are resigning their TEAM membership, but I sure have read plenty of resignations from Quixtar.
I think you must have meant Q/A is desperate….
October 14th, 2007 at 12:04 am
Here we go again.
Someone (from TEAM)please expalin why you are still on this site? You have accused A/Q of everything except alien abductions. You have called this business illegal and keep telling all of us how you are quitting to go on to this next GREAT thing of yours…but your still here. You were supporters of a failed lawsuit to damage or destroy this company and business opportunity…but your still here.
WHY?
If you really dont want to be part of A/Q and how the business has “evolved” “changed” or “betrayed” you, then move on. This cannot be worth your time. I have not seen any posts trying to talk about your better way,just insults and personal attacks you call responses to IBO attacks.
If this is not a business you want to be part of…why do you care what we think of you? Why do you need these negative IBO sites? The courts have said you have no case and the contract you signed is correct and enforcable. This is a blog for IBO’s which many of you clearly say you don’t want to be or support.
OK, That is fine with us….now leave and start your next great thing.
This is getting seriously OLD! I look to this blog for information on this business and what is happening within our business community. There are plenty of places you can go and “vent”. By staying here, you reduce yourselves to a bunch of 12 year olds screaming that life in unfair when they get caught doing something they should have known better about.
Life Moves Pretty Fast…If You Don’t Take A Look Around Sometimes…You Could Miss It.
October 14th, 2007 at 12:33 am
AmwayBloggAdmin: where do I post a blog about Team? You tell other bloggers not to post certain comments in certain places… Where is the Blog that says “Just Go Team”? Why is that gone?
October 14th, 2007 at 12:59 am
TMR,
If this were the thread with the topic about the new hotel I could see your point. Considering the topic of this thread, are you seriously confused as to why someone associated with TEAM would post here? C’mon.
October 14th, 2007 at 1:19 am
I’m interested to see where all this will lead. This is strictly opinion, but I am coming up in my mind with three possible reasons for this. Anyone have additional ideas (not just bad mouthing, but actual thoughts) I’m not thinking of?
1) Quixtar found something in a post that only a member of the IBOAI board would know. Or something similar. Basically they read (and copied I’m sure) something they feel they can prove regular IBO’s couldn’t have known and, therefor, this person could only post if they received information from someone on the IBOAI board or something like that.
2) To fight fire with fire in their eyes. I read the team hired lawyers and, whether it was the team or the lawyers (it didn’t specify) also hired a PR firm who’s sole purpose was a negative campaign against Quixtar. By going after websites (and possibly more in the future) they are starting an offensive of their own for PR reasons.
3) Even though I’ve personally witnessed leadership of the team (including a Diamond) speak at and attend functions after they were kicked out and lost the Michigan lawsuits (it was shortly after though), I can’t believe they would be dumb enough to do something that could trace back to them.
So maybe I’m naive, but my 3rd thought that I’m leaning towards is this: If Quixtar can track ANY remarks that goes against Quixtar rules and/or lawsuits back to the PR company, and since the PR company was either hired by the team or hired by the lawyers the team hired, Quixtar feels they can in some way prove team people guilty since it’s their money paying for the websites and bad remarks.
Any other thoughts?
October 14th, 2007 at 1:51 am
Just a quick word on the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution and its relation of the general claim of freedom of speech in society. Specifically, the 1st Amendment reads,
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”
The Cornell University Law School web site sates, “The Supreme Court interprets the extent of the protection afforded to these rights. The First Amendment has been interpreted by the Court as applying to the entire federal government even though it is only expressly applicable to Congress.”
Okay, why all this legal stuff? It is worth knowing the 1st Amendment applies to the government: federal, state, and local, and not private individuals. It is there to keep the government from abridging free speech, etc. It is not applicable to private institutions, organizations, etc.
So when Alticor says, “not attack First Amendment Speech,” it is actually inapplicable, because the First Amendment only applies to the government. And when an individual lays claim to First Amendment rights to, say, expressing their opinion on a blog, the First Amendment doesn’t apply.
However, since a lot of people think it does, laying claim usually works.
Just a little tidbit I learned a couple of years ago. : )
October 14th, 2007 at 2:30 am
TMR #105
If you want to findout what Quixtar is doing, go the the Ada-tudes blog website, or the IBOAI website (that banned Tex).
If you want to see Alticor bash Team, that is what Alticor has been doing here since 8/10. (With the exception of a few posts, such as the new cool hotel, and a few links about Amway having a hard time in the UK and India and what they are doing about it.)
Some other blogs are back. If you want a list, see the suit link at the top. Realize that all blogs have some bias, including the pro Alticor, pro Team or other sites.
If you wonder why some “Team” IBOs are here, realize that not all in the “Team” LOS quit. Some are trying to decide what to do, some are mad at the way Alticor has been acting, and some want to help fix Q/A. Since this blog is aimed at trashing Team, some former IBOs are here to defend leaders that they have trusted.
The only blogger I suspect is being paid is Tex, but I can’t figure out who is paying him.
October 14th, 2007 at 3:29 am
Tex, #88. Tell me what I’m uninformed about.
I’ve been around the negative truths longer than you, so please feel free to fill me in on what my blog hasn’t covered yet.
You’re the one always complaining about the tools, yet insisting that Amway prices are competitive.
So what am I uninformed about?
October 14th, 2007 at 3:39 am
“There is one way to avoid criticism: never do anything, never amount to anything. Never get your head above the crowd so the jealous will notice and attack you. Criticism is a sign that your personality has some force.” - April 2007 calendar
October 14th, 2007 at 6:53 am
dannie #100,
It’s just one of many blog sites out there. I prefer the one that has credibility, which is this one. If you read the comments, the poster backs down on this issue. Also, Orrin hasn’t protested over this issue for 2 months, don’t you think he and his lawyers would have by now? Turn on your common sense.
Captain Amway #101,
You mean Double Diamond Scott Michael, or Double Diamond pin Scott Michael? Do you know the difference?
However, I believe you’re right, my recollection was in error. However, after a while all the lying cowards tend to blend together.
Here’s a post that confirms what you say, interesting how the person refers to Chuck Goetschel as someone better than Scott, yet Chuck is the one who has been booted.
Regarding the cape, are you gay?
Utah #102,
The press does what they want to do, mostly try to outdo each other with titillating stories. I guess this story rose to that level, and once the momentum starts, ALL of them get on the bandwagon.
Lajinito #103,
No.
cmon. people.think #104,
Ever hear of Custer’s Last Stand? This is exactly what Quixtar WANTS them to do, get together in one place and slaughter them (in a businesslike manner, of course). This function has all the markings of the last one TIF held. Have you seen the Andy Andrews clip on youtube? Orrin is actually ahead of Andy, he’s already been booted, Andy was still hanging on by a thread at that time.
TMR #105,
If you look hard enough in the various TEAM blogs, you could probably find some alien abductions. Every other type of ridiculous idea is there. I think you’re giving them far too much credit by calling them 12 year olds, I was thinking more like 2 or 3.
confused #106,
Yes, you are (confused, that is). You have to page back to August 10th. It’s there.
October 14th, 2007 at 9:31 am
freedom #108,
I think what you have offered is speculation and some, all, or none of it may be true.
We have enough facts to work with the much more important issue, the tool scam, that I am willing to wait until this plays out.
The Big Apple #109,
I would guess Cornell said that because it is Congress’ job to make laws, so it is assumed the other branches of the federal government can’t take something away that has been assigned to Congress, whether it be making laws in general, or the First Amendment in particular.
However, by extention, this also means a non-government agency can’t use the government to stop the free speech of another non-government agency, UNLESS that speech is determined to be libel or slander. The court order TEAM received was to put TEAM on notice that because they are in conflict with Q, they need to stay quiet until the legal issues are played out in court and/or arbitration. In other words, the court is protecting Q’s right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty.
Therefore, free speech does have its limitations, even when non-governmental agencies are involved. Our freedoms come with equal levels of responsibilities. If we don’t know the nuances, we are more likely to lose them.
In