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Alticor Media Blog is the official news weblog from the Alticor family of companies.
October 12th, 2007 @ 2:30 pm ET…
Guerrillas in the midst
You can post a comment or trackback from your own site.
Yes, we did.
We filed suit this week in Ottawa County, Michigan seeking to learn more about a number of “John Does” who have cropped up online since our dispute with Orrin Woodward and TEAM began.
Because we believe we can prove that some of their sites and posts were engineered or directed by Woodward, TEAM, their lawyers or their PR agency. And that those sites were purposely used to post material that violates a court order.
To us, this is a necessary measure in a commercial dispute. Because we believe the TEAM machine has been fighting dirty, abusing the online discussion and end-running the court.
(It’s also a necessary step in a technical sense – the companies that host these sites will not divulge information without a subpoena. You can’t get a subpoena without going to court. So if you want to demonstrate that Blogger X’s “spontaneous” site is actually part of a planned-and-paid-for strategy of commercial attack… that’s the road you have to go down.)
So we are seeking to support the legal system – and not attack First Amendment speech. Tough line to walk, but we’ll walk it. Because we believe in both principles.
It could very well be that some of these sites truly are spontaneous, just angry citizens independently voicing their opinions without direction from anyone else. We have no problem with those folks. We don’t want their money, we regret wasting their time and we will even offer to reimburse their costs.
There are plenty of individuals out there posting critical comments about our company, on this site and others. We welcome the debate and value their opinions. (Don’t believe that? Scan through the 4,000 comments of all stripes we’ve posted here since August.)
But e-guerrillas who won’t own up to being bought and paid for in a commercial dispute so they can end-run a court of law are another matter. We invite them to come on out – and fight in broad daylight.
Filed by: Corporate Communications
Posted in: Alticor, Amway, Quixtar, Transformation
October 12th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
Reimburse their costs?
Which costs are you talking about?
The costs to answer to the subpoena?
October 12th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
I’ve been reading thses posts for awhile now…and i’ve got to say that somebody been sleeping or on drugs..there has been more neg remarks about team then anything else. i’ve haven’t seen anything from team members that would have been from ” bought and paid for” people on here or anywhere else. So stop that BS and just wait till the dust settles
My 2cts
October 12th, 2007 at 2:59 pm
I can’t believe that a company the size of Alticor cannot hire a professional writer for this blog. The articles here are so accusatory and condemning even before the facts are known. So much hatred and anger. And from a company, no less. How did this get so personal? Can’t you just make a plain statement of your intentions without all the innuendo? You’re playing the same game of which you accuse TEAM. So unprofessional.
October 12th, 2007 at 3:13 pm
whoever #2,
One of the groups accused the other of being an illegal pyramid. One of the groups got their cases thrown out of court. One of the groups broke rules and wanted to break more on their way out the door. Why is it you have a problem with facts, because they are not on your side?
cmon.people.think #3,
Want some cheese with that whine?
October 12th, 2007 at 3:26 pm
Good luck alticor-Quixtar/Amway…
I would like to see with the blogs just go team… and alike how in the world you plan on pulling that off…
October 12th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
WOW this is great hahahaha like orrin or any of the leaders on team would have the time to writ BLOGS. Half of this crap is all opion or I should say most of this is. What is alticore 6 years old or something throw me a friggin bone none of the leaders on team have time to set up little blogs everyone truley involved with team knows exactly where we are headed so the blogs mean nothing to us
LARGEST CORP. IN THE WORLD IS COMING IF YA CAN’T BEAT UM JOIN UM!!!
October 12th, 2007 at 3:33 pm
chris #5,
It’s pretty easy when you have an existing court order against TEAM.
October 12th, 2007 at 3:51 pm
Alticor/Quixtar/Amway has made so many enemies this year. Does it really matter who hates you on any given blog?
Anyway, two questions…
Who at Amway leaked to the media (against the judge’s orders) that Eric Scheibeler “recanted” and “admitted” that he lied? It was either him or Amway. I would bet it was Amway, not him.
Secondly, did Amway/Quixtar purposely misrepresent the team tool agreement in court documents? Your filing showed a team contract with a ‘no compete’ clause in it. They state that there was NEVER a no-compete clause in their contracts. Was that a mistake on your part or just another diversion tactic?
October 12th, 2007 at 3:54 pm
ALTICOR BLOGGER, thanks again for a well written, very appropriate, even-toned post. You are doing a fantastic job.
And thanks to Alticor Legal for defending the rights of the vast majority of us who want to develop our businesses without interference from the malcontents. You may not be able to say that, but I can, and will.
October 12th, 2007 at 3:57 pm
MichMan: Why not ask your Scheibeler question on the Scheibeler post? Or the no-compete question in any of the nearly two dozen TEAM-related posts that deal directly with that very issue? Your first question–now that’s a question for this post. And thank you for asking.
October 12th, 2007 at 4:10 pm
fuddman #6,
If Orrin and Co. have done nothing, they have nothing to be afraid of, but if they did, they should be afraid. Very afraid.
MichMan #8,
Yes, it does matter. Did you read the court order?
Regarding Scheibeler, all the corp did was report what was already in the news.
Regarding the non-compete, the document may have been the most recent the corp had. The bigger question is whether the “keep secret” clause is still in the contract, because I believe that is the root issue in the entire Orrin and Co. fiasco, and the corp’s main challenge in the future.
October 12th, 2007 at 4:11 pm
Moderator,
Just curious. Why Ottawa County?
October 12th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
(Moderator, this comment is to you specifically, not for the forum… Although I disagree with many things from the corporation, you have allowed a lot open and frank discussion. I can at least respect you all for that. Cheers. )
October 12th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
hey moderator,
I never did get my email apologizing for YOUR remarks as a Texas court ordered you to send out…and I think the judge told you to remove all disparaging remarks about MY business from your blogs…did you guys get that thrown out ? if so, my apologies and you should have stated that victory here…
if not, where is it ?
October 12th, 2007 at 4:22 pm
#13 MichMan: Thanks, and hope we read your comment correctly — that it was okay for us to post.
October 12th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
Thanks again for the update!!! I haven’t really said this on any blog, but I appreciate you all (Quixtar/Amway) enforcing the rules and fighting for the IBOs who love this business and the opportunity it has given us!!!
#3 cmon.people.think
I’m not really sure why you’re attacking this post . . . the person who wrote the article was only keeping everyone up to speed as to what is going on at this point. They made it very clear that they have no problem with people writing negative comments or blogs. They only suspect (they did not say they were certain, but I would assume they have evidence or they couldn’t get the subpoena) that certain blogs were set up or paid for by the plaintiffs in the court case. That would (as they pointed out) violate the court order.
October 12th, 2007 at 4:30 pm
G, can you resubmit? We hit the wrong button.
October 12th, 2007 at 4:32 pm
CC: Actually, I believe MichMan preferred we sit on that one. Our apologies, MichMan, if we screwed that up.
October 12th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
I would also be interested in knowing why the venue chosen was Ottawa County.
There are also several other sites that appear to be operated by the same individuals/groups that were not named in the lawsuit.
October 12th, 2007 at 4:47 pm
#18,
If that’s the case, can’t you just take comment #13 out?
October 12th, 2007 at 4:48 pm
dannie #14,
Perhaps that case was one of those thrown out or expired. In any event, I’m sure Orrin’s crack team of lawyers are on top of it, just like they succeeded with the main lawsuit.
Admin/CC 15/8,
I think you did screw up, MichMan never intended for us to see his “softer” side.
CC #17,
Now you’ve got me sitting on the edge of my chair, wondering what G thinks about all of this.
October 12th, 2007 at 4:49 pm
Shaun #19,
You have a copy of the lawsuit?
October 12th, 2007 at 4:50 pm
Bridgett #20,
You mean this one?
MichMan Says:
October 12th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
(Moderator, this comment is to you specifically, not for the forum… Although I disagree with many things from the corporation, you have allowed a lot open and frank discussion. I can at least respect you all for that. Cheers. )
October 12th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
Dear Quixtar: Why are you NOW deciding to claim how tough you are? Where were you when Dateline was ripping IBO’s to shreds? Where were you as Scott Larson was incorrectly attacking your business on the front page of google searches? Are you guys stupid or scared to death that Orrin might defeat you in the market place? ( ) that space is for Tex(Alticor mailroom employee of the year) to rant about how clueless I am.
October 12th, 2007 at 4:58 pm
[…] filed a lawsuit today in Ottawa County against 30 anonymous website owners and bloggers including the operators […]
October 12th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
Tex: G’s comment was caught in our spam trap. It’s out, now, and was meant for the ‘Spaghetti’ post to begin with. CC has had a long day.
And, uh, no need to exacerbate the issue. And as for why Ottawa County, we’ll find out.
October 12th, 2007 at 5:13 pm
Alticor/Quixtar/Amway Corporate - you have GOT to be kidding!
The opinions posted by these John Does DO NOT violate the court orders you referenced - or any other court order I’m aware of! So how does ANY of this material constitute an “end run around a court of law?!”
Tex #7 & #11, NL #16 - read the above. Did you read the court orders? Apparently not.
Speaking of contempt of court - how about that court order that ordered YOU to remove all disparaging comments about TEAM from your websites and blogs - the same order that required you to email of copy of itself to all IBOs? Did you do either of those things? Does completely ignoring a court order constitute an “end run around a court of law?”
You believe TEAM has been fighting dirty? Have you looked in a mirror lately?
“Necessary measure in a commercial dispute?” Please! I cannot believe what I’m reading! I may have disagreed with you before, but of all the asinine, imbecilic, absurd, immature and spiteful things you could have done -
Congratulations. You have just earned another resignation.
October 12th, 2007 at 5:18 pm
Interesting how Corp is now attempting to litigate the www court of public opinion … frankly, many of the sites indicated in filing are not ones I was even aware of - that sort of messes up the vast conspiracy theory, doesn’t it?
This latest attempt to go beyond spin & control dissent outside corporate controlled blogs is likely to make even more of a heyday for those who thought this was a cult all along.
“Don’t type that blog - drink the kool-aid!”
btw Tex - The lawsuit is linked in 1st sentence of 2nd paragraph (if you can call the 1st sentence a paragraph)
October 12th, 2007 at 5:20 pm
Common Sense, in case you didn’t notice, there’s been some management changes at Alticor and Quixtar since Dateline. And I seriously doubt that they are ‘afraid’ of anyone, but they appreciate ensuring that legal contracts and court orders are enforced. Hopefully, nothing for you to be afraid of.
Best wishes,
October 12th, 2007 at 5:20 pm
Common Sense #24,
I can’t believe someone with your name would ask such a question, but I digress….
The corp knew they wouldn’t get a fair shake on those kinds of shows, and determined it was the lesser of two evils to not appear on it, and just issue a statement.
Larsen is a nut. He comes up with timely stories (such as the new Britt lawsuit), but his analyses generally stink. Sometimes it is best to walk away from a skunk, he has his First Amendment rights, you know. Even if he now lives overseas.
You took all the space needed to prove how clueless you are to me.
Admin #25,
Hey, it’s either that or torture small animals.
Feel free to remove my post if you want, no problem.
October 12th, 2007 at 5:23 pm
“Captain” in case you weren’t reading, the Texas case in question is being reheard, regardless of Ron Simmon’s hair splitting post at the IBOAI blog. However, Ron did make a good point regarding that complaint, in that good Judge Bush’s decision was actually a “recommendation” to a sitting judge to review, and which could be challenged by Quixtar, which they did.
October 12th, 2007 at 5:24 pm
Captain #26,
You’re clueless.
Q has every right to get a subpoena to check into all of these sites, it is the only way they can find out if the court order is being complied with.
I already address your other court order, but I guess it doesn’t matter now, you’re leaving.
Bub-bye.
G #27,
Thanks for the tip, I missed it.
October 12th, 2007 at 5:32 pm
#26 Captain:
Buh-bye.
October 12th, 2007 at 5:42 pm
#26 Captain
Actually, I just read the court document from Kent County, MI; did I miss something?
October 12th, 2007 at 5:50 pm
rdknyvr #28 - Certainly they appreciate ensuring that court orders are enforced .. except those they disagree with.
rdknyvr #30 - Who’s talking about any Texas case? I am, as well as A/Q/A Corporate is, referring to the court orders linked in the post.
Tex #31 = You’re the clueless one, buddy. Why would they need subpoenas to ensure court orders are being complied with when no court orders are being violated in the first place? None of the material posted violates any court order, so it matters not who posted them.
October 12th, 2007 at 5:54 pm
NL #33 - Did you miss something? I don’t know.
Now that you’ve read the 3 court orders from Kent County, can you see any way where any material posted on any of the blogs listed in Q’s latest suit violates any of these court orders?
It may be me that’s missing something here … but I just don’t see it.
October 12th, 2007 at 6:01 pm
Hey thanks for all the new websites I didn’t know about until your lawsuit.
I have so much free time on my hands these days since I stopped showing plans or placing orders.
October 12th, 2007 at 6:17 pm
Captain #26
Did you read the court orders? apparentlly you like to see things that dont exsist.
The tro saying that quixtar had to remove all those remarks was thrown out.
Yes I do belive Team is fighting dirty, throwing bogus law suits that have no merit,
Thats dirty.
And judging from your comments from before, you resigned already.
October 12th, 2007 at 6:23 pm
Cool Quixtar.
do a google search for “freetheibo, jthompson” and you will see dozens of bloggers at freetheibo respond to many of my 80 comments, but you will not find me, b/c all my comments were deleted. Same for freetheibo, etc….
Also i posted a few comments at some of these John Doe sites - like blog.freetheibo - and none of my respectful/disagreeing comments have been posted.
Many of these TEAM blog sites believe in freedom of speech if its Pro-Team
Quixtar, good job!
JT - Gods Big Picture by Ladonna Osborn
October 12th, 2007 at 6:44 pm
To Funny Bradley/Alticor
Are you Kidding??
Lets see http://chrismcstu.blogspot.com has not added anything since Aug 21 and all he did was cut and paste letters from Chuck G and Ron Simmons..and some other letter.
http://integrityisteam.blogspot.com has not added commentary since September 19th. This is just another website of IBO REBELLION he signed of on the posts.
http://Quixtartoday.blogspot.com hasn’t posted since August 31st and there is a gigantic picture of him and contact information. You would think Alticor/Q/A could figure out who he is since he was an emerald at one time.
Please when you locate him let him know your Amway soon so he can fix his website name. Clearly know one has let him know it will be Amway soon.
http:// quixtarlostmycents.blogspot.com what is she doing? unfairly disparaging Quixtar? its product and prices? I would say she wanted to defend Quixtar, but your product and prices just didn’t come out ahead. Most fascinating is pricing differences between canada and the USA. Man, I would be ticked off if I was Canada.
Oh and by the way she tells you who she is right on the website, very easy to contact her or find out who she is. Still can’t find out who she is? Write a comment asking she responds back? Interesting concept asking? instead of a lawsuit.
I could go on and on but I want to go watch all the U Tube videos listed in the suit.
TaTa.
And your lawsuit, goood luck.
October 12th, 2007 at 7:24 pm
Since I don’t follow several of those sites, I was surprised who is on the list and who isn’t.
My favorite site, other that then the IBOAI and ADA-tudes sites, was not on the list. Of course it posts both sides and the guy has his name on it. This site by Alticor is the least accurate. They should have hired the guy the IBOAI did for there blog. Nice professional guy being paid. I don’t always agree with JB, but he deserves thumbs up. The people that run ADA-tudes are typically pretty good, except when they quote this one.
I certainly have not seen anyone on any of the site I have seen, promote a competing MLM, other than one person trolling from a other company that wasn’t an IBO or team member. The rumor I complained about someone picking up here and Tex lying about.
I certainly have said good things about both sides.
I personally think this latest move by Alticor will hurt them more than help.
They certainly know who I am and what my primary business is. Is this blog going to pay me the $6k of reduced net revenue from last month from my other business, (not related) that I blame on this whole mess, especially those real friendly emails that Q/A sends?
October 12th, 2007 at 9:10 pm
I just read the lawsuit. If Q/A think the other blogs are killing their business. They are so wrong. Their blog and Tex whoever you are can take that credit. Team or my upline have never once told me to do about resigning. They informed me to do what I thought was best for my family. Thanks Q/A you have made my decision for me. I have resigned!!!!
October 12th, 2007 at 10:10 pm
Hey tex…I bet your subpoena is on its way!
October 12th, 2007 at 10:20 pm
Hey Alticor–Will you reimburse me for my lost income since you’ve decided to take your company into the gutter? Let’s see, my Quixtar bonus for the month of October looks like it will be down about 90%, based on the current state of my group PV. Guess I might as well resign too–it seems no one in my groups want to do business with people like you. Get a clue.
And all you Q/A/A defenders out there–are you insane? If ANY other company put out crap like this, you would be screaming bloody murder. Me thinks you all deserve each other! Suing JOHN DOE!!?!?!! Just how do you serve him?
October 12th, 2007 at 10:25 pm
Tex,
we are not affraid. It will be fine. Things always work out somehow..why do you care anyway? You can not stand Team just get over it and be gone….
October 12th, 2007 at 10:33 pm
I would like to see both Q/A and Team sit down and hammer this thing out. If Q/A doesn’t want Team and Team doesn’t want Q/A then just make it happen.Anyone can see that all this hype is causing harm to both sides. Set your pride aside and let both paties move on to bigger and better things.
The comments I read on all of these blogs make for a good read but don’t sway me one way or the other. I’m disappointed that this matter has reached this point.
October 12th, 2007 at 10:58 pm
jthomptson said: “Also i posted a few comments at some of these John Doe sites - like blog.freetheibo - and none of my respectful/disagreeing comments have been posted. Many of these TEAM blog sites believe in freedom of speech if its Pro-Team”
I could say the same about the IBOAI site. The IBOAI Blog would not comment on IBOAI relations with AQA while negotiations were on going.
So after the new agreement was signed, I asked three questions:
1- What specific points were being negotiated? And how did the negotiations come out? What did the rank and file IBO “win”?
2- Regarding the Amway’s new bonus money being offered only to IBOs in “accredited” tool systems. How many Board members belonged to tool systems that would not even qualify for the bonuses?
3- Would the Board be releasing a statement as to why Don Held resigned weeks after the TEAM fiasco?
They banned me for “asking negative questions.”
October 12th, 2007 at 10:59 pm
How funny.
First off Quixtar, I didn’t even know about several of the websites listed in the suit so thanks for the added reading and videos to watch.
Secondly, on page 5 of the suit, you claim that the defendants have an interest in another MLM….GIVE ME A BREAK! GIVE IT UP Q. There has been no talk of any other MLM and you haven’t been able to prove anything yet concerning another MLM so drop it. It’s a mute point.
Thirdly, this blog is doing more damage to your company than all the other blogs out there. The attitude of the writer of this blog is terrible. People are looking at how you are handling this situation and how you deal with the IBOs in general….NEITHER are good. The Q corporate lawyers are the ones turning IBOs against Q not all of those sites you listed.
Fourth, I have never been told what to buy, not buy from Quixtar, resign or renew with Quixtar. People have simply posted online what they have chosen to do which gives others the ablility to make a decision on seeing both sides of the battle (seeing how Q handles things and how IBOs respond). If you think someone posting prices online compared to the competion’s products disparages Qs products then maybe Q needs to reevaluate its prices….OH WAIT THAT WAS WOODWARD’S COMPLAINT FOR THE PAST 2 YEARS!!!
Q, you are losing a ton of money and IBOs so I can understand trying to shut down all the negative websites concerning the TEAM lawsuit. One problem though, for every site that you get shut down 1-2 will pop up that is started by one of the 100K+ mad IBOs that YOU threatened with your emails and actions. As you said, you don’t care about those that are expressing their right to Freedom of Speech so as you see more come online please don’t sue them too.
I’m still an IBO (have been for 13 years) and will be at least until 12/31/07 but the way the corp is handling this and the massive changes they are making is causing me to doubt my renewal. Oh well, life will go on, not sure about Amway though as an MLM. Maybe Amway the supplier of products to retail outlets will….something to think about.
October 12th, 2007 at 11:12 pm
Read the Ada-tudes new post:
http://adatudes.opportunityzone.com/2007/10/12/A-New-Direction-for-Quixtar-Sales.aspx
Some good info. Someone at Quixtar really cares. Perhaps it is just Alticor that doesn’t seem to.
October 12th, 2007 at 11:16 pm
Steve #48
I believe Q had retailing on its “mind” all along. That path has been made before - Watkins, Tupperware. I’m sure there are others.
This blog is almost as good as any afternoon soap opera. AS the MLM churns; Quixtar knows best; or how about - the price IS ripe
October 12th, 2007 at 11:47 pm
Captain #35,
The corp needs a subpoena to investigate whether the various blog activities violate the court order. The blog companies don’t give up the private information regarding who is behind the blogs unless they receive a subpoena.
bbb #42,
Bub-bye.
whoever #43,
Where are they going to send it?
LisBette #44,
That’s the purpose of the subpoenas, to find out who the John Doe’s are.
Negative Nancy #45,
I think you’re severely confused, I am an IBO, it is YOU who should go away. Just Go TEAM.
Mike in VA #46,
It will be over soon. Once this thing hits arbitratrion, it will get VERY quiet….except for the screaming in the back room….
MichMan #47,
If you can believe it, even I was “banned” from the IBOAI blog.
This organization doesn’t represent me, and I encourage every single IBO to ask for their $9 back.
Steve $48,
If there is no other MLM in the works, why did Orrin ask to break the 6 month rule?
The corp is doing a fine job with this blog, take your comments somewhere else.
Don’t hold your breath out Amway products showing up in retail outlets. On second thought….
October 13th, 2007 at 12:02 am
Tex….instead of wasting your time on here why dont you work your business….oh yea thats right nobody wants to join amway!
October 13th, 2007 at 12:07 am
matthew #38 - Yes, I read the court orders. No, the Texas TRO was not thrown out. The Texas TRO was granted, and it set a date for a hearing on a preliminary injunction - two different, but related, things.
Q was given 24 hours after being notified of the TRO to send a copy of the order to all IBOs and to remove all disparaging remarks pending the hearing for the preliminary injunction. Yes, when the hearing was held … several weeks later … it was dismissed - but not on merit, rather on venue.
Regardless, Q was supposed to abide by the TRO until the hearing was held … which they didn’t do. Talk about thumbing their nose at the judge, the court and the legal system!
Yes, Q claims to support the legal system - but, obviously, not if it rules against them.
October 13th, 2007 at 12:10 am
#48 Steve said: There has been no talk of any other MLM and you haven’t been able to prove anything yet concerning another MLM so drop it. It’s a mute point.
Um, isn’t TEAM, the Leadership Development Service Provider, an MLM?
October 13th, 2007 at 12:21 am
#51 Tex
What exactly IS the $9 for?
October 13th, 2007 at 12:21 am
Tex #51 - Boy, you seriously need to get a clue. Perhaps you didn’t understand what I said. Perhaps if I talked a little s-l-o-w-e-r or a little LOUDER, maybe you could understand. Let’s try this:
Point #1 - THE IS NO MATERIAL ON ANY OF THE FORUMS OR BLOGS CITED THAT VIOLATE ANY COURT ORDER.
Point #2 - THE PURPOSE OF THE SUBPOENAS IS TO DISCOVER THE IDENTITY OF THE PEOPLE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE MATERIAL ON THESE FORUMS AND BLOGS.
Point #3 - THEY DON’T NEED TO DISCOVER ANYONE’S IDENTITY TO ENSURE THAT COURT ORDERS ARE BEING COMPLIED WITH, SINCE IT IS OBVIOUS FROM A CURSORY EXAMINATION OF THE POSTED MATERIAL THAT NO COURT ORDERS ARE BEING VIOLATED - *REGARDLESS* OF WHO POSTED THE MATERIAL.
There - is that better? Can you follow that reasoning? Do you understand now?
I hope so.
October 13th, 2007 at 12:50 am
Utah #49,
I think they may chat every once in a while. Just a guess though.
Lee #50,
You want to hold your breath, too?
whoever #52,
How long did it take to come up with that one?
Captain #53,
If Q is so bad, why doesn’t Orrin’s highly paid lawyers balk?
Bridgett #54/5,
I think their point is the leadership information does not compete with Q, which I agree with, by the way. However, this doesn’t explain why Orrin and Co. filed the lawsuit.
The $9 supposedly supports the costs of running the IBOAI. I think they have more than enough tool scam money and don’t need mine.
Captain #56,
Boy, you seriously need to get a clue. Perhaps you didn’t understand what I said. Perhaps if I talked a little s-l-o-w-e-r or a little LOUDER, maybe you could understand. Let’s try this:
Point #1 - WRONG, if the information was supported or suggested by Orrin and Co.
Point #2 - Correct. See point #1.
Point #3 - WRONG. See point #1.
There - is that better? Can you follow that reasoning? Do you understand now?
I hope so.
October 13th, 2007 at 1:27 am
#57 Tex,
I guess it depends on how you read rule 6.5.1.
Does “products or services functionally interchangeable with those offered or marketed by the Corporation.” apply to both (a) and (b), or just(b)?
If both, then the CDs, books, etc. are not competing products.
If only (b), then (a) is a stand-alone criteria and would mean ANY and ALL MLMs are against the rules.
6.5.1. For purposes of this Rule 6.5, “Compete” means to own, manage, operate, consult for, be employed by, or participate as an independent distributor in (a) any other direct sales program using a multilevel or “network” marketing structure, or (b) any other enterprise that markets, through independent distributors, products or services functionally interchangeable with those offered or marketed by the Corporation.
October 13th, 2007 at 1:33 am
#57 Tex
What ARE the costs of running the Board? That’s what I don’t know.
Having a website?
Travel costs when they go to ADA for their meetings?
Let’s say that 600,000 IBOs pay the $9. That’s $5.4 million.
October 13th, 2007 at 1:49 am
I am not part of team therefore there are many things I “don’t” know about what is happening on the team side of things.
This much I do know. Orrin and Chris really put themselves out front as the leaders of team. If Orrin and Chris were really “leading” team and they were the great leaders they purport to be; then they are responsible for what is being done, said and represented by the organization they lead.
I also know they brought one of the most vicious lawsuits in history, against this business and every IBO that stands with Quixtar. They took confidential information from the IBOAI and the company and used it in their lawsuit. This information was given to them after they signed non-disclosure agreements that they would keep all information shared with them confidential. Where is the integrity in that?
If you give your word that you will agree to something, that should be enough. When you give your word that you will agree to something and sign a formal document; then the courts have a record and can order you to return that information and forbid you from using it in further proceedings. Of course that doesn’t do much good if the “genie” is already out of the bottle.
They filed frivoulous TRO’s all over the country that are a tremendous waste of everyone’s time. They even stooped so low as to hire Ashton Partners (Jennifer Granholm’s P.R. firm). They have put unbelievably negative things on You Tube to try and goad and discredit anyone who is not in their camp. There is no integrity in that; the only way to describe their conduct is diabolical.
They have huffed and puffed and tried to blow all our houses in. It appears they were willing to try “anything”; regardless of how cruel it was, to win their so-called freedom. If they throw out all restraint and still fail, what is there next move? It wouldn’t surprise me if they tried to come back to the company and said, “Sorry, we were just kidding!!!”; while they sang the Beatles song, “We Can Work It Out”! Remember; the end, does not justify the means!
They are not the first in the vast history of this great business to “stack” or as they describe it; “depth build”, and they probably won’t be the last. They claim that they have this unique leadership training that is the best in the history of this business.
I believe there are a lot of organizations that do a great job and give some of the original leaders in the field and Rich and Jay the credit for developing the spirit that still permeates this business. That spirit and set of values was in this business a long time before Orrin and Chris came on the scene and God willing will still be in this business long after we are all gone.
I don’t know these two; but I believe they must have some great leadership qualities. I also know that they have been driving this whole mess and are responsible for the things that happen in team.
I understand that everyone in any organization wants to believe that their upline; their leaders are the best. I’m sure Orrin and Chris have many wonderful attributes. I also know that if you look at some of the obvious facts in this case, they also have some very devious attributes.
Neither the company nor team is without some guilt in this and there are lots of things that need to be fixed in any large organization. How we go about fixing those things is the real test of leadership. I think if we read between the lines, we all can figure out what team’s real motive in this thing was and it was a long way from Quixtar being an illegal pyramid. That was a preposterous stretch at best.
October 13th, 2007 at 3:34 am
Steve #48
Thanks for saving me a lot of typing, I feel exactly the same way, except I may not wait till Dec. 31
Tex 57
“I think their point is the leadership information does not compete with Q, which I agree with, by the way. However, this doesn’t explain why Orrin and Co. filed the lawsuit”.
Would you like to know why it doesn’t explain it? Because this is not a tool profit issue. That’s what I was saying before, you’re looking at this situation the wrong way. Not a tool profit issue, Q pricing issue. Simple, if Q’s pricing structure makes it illegal then it cannot enforce it’s contracts, so no non-compete or solicitation rules should be enforced.
Honestly you do post like you’re being paid to. You know how silly you look repeating stuff after a number of people have corrected you?
October 13th, 2007 at 7:06 am
Steve Says:
October 12th, 2007 at 10:59 pm
I agree completely. Who is going to pay us for the damage this Alticore site has done to our business. I am embarrased and sad, I am mad, I am ashamed of a company I have put my life into, since 1969. This is worse than a divorce or death in the family. This is an emotional & financial drain that is unreal.
October 13th, 2007 at 7:49 am
rdknyvr#31: Where do you get your facts that my Texas case is being reheard?
This is simply not true - no matter what the corporate communication bloggers say.
They know it is not true but if they choose to mislead and misrepresent then they choose whatever consequences result from that.
October 13th, 2007 at 9:09 am
The Big Q,
If you do not like my comments, then COME AND GET ME! I am currently in the Middle East DEFENDING my country against ALL enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC. Against ANYONE who wants to trample on the BILL OF RIGHTS, and try to squelch the FREEDOM OF SPEECH. I have served 10 years defending AMERICA, and I will not stop blogging as that is my only weapon against the injustice of SLAVERY and HIGH PRICES! What you don’t understand is that no one is paying me to write, no one has told me to write. I will not leave a fallen comrade behind, (Orrin Woodward, Chris Brady, etc.), if blogging is my only weapon against tyranny and oppression, then I shall pick it up and fight to the death! (This is where Tex comments that TEAM is dying, he’ll be happy to plant the sword in my chest, the TEAM is falling apart… yadaydayda… ya.. ok.. whatever)
October 13th, 2007 at 9:38 am
Bridgett #58,
I think the words you quoted apply only to (b), but I consider TEAM to fit the description of (a), so they lose. Thanks for pointing that out, I had not read that rule carefully for a while. You’re right, it includes all MLM and also any “…”network” marketing structure….”
Bridgett #59,
One would think if they are our “business partners” and “teammates”, as they like to claim, it would be appropriate for them to tell us what their costs are and where the money goes. But as in the tools, they feel they are above any transparency. They are supposed to be a non-profit outfit, so there must be some nice parties and meeting locations.
pvbvguy,
It doesn’t do much good if the genie is out of the bottle, but it does determine the level of punishment assigned by the arbitration proceedings.
First of all, I think it is too late for them to come back to their previous positions, and Q may not even let them come back in if they started at the bottom of a leg.
I’ve seen their leadership training, it’s nothing special. Of course they had “some” leadership qualities (organization, inspirational, etc.), but used these qualities for bad, not for good. History is full of other examples, such as dictators and terrorists.
The “illegal pyramid” claim didn’t stick, but it sure paid Orrin’s lawyers well.
AEM #61,
Bub-bye. And good riddance.
I’m not concerned about the “illegal pyramid” charge, Orrin won’t get to first base on that charge in arbitration. It’s a non-issue.
Monette #62,
You can blame the lying cowardly “kingpins” and their tool scam. You can also blame A/Q for not following through after the 1983 “Directly Speaking” tapes. We are now reaping what was sowed.
You can’t change the past. What are you going to do now and in the future?
Ron #63,
I don’t care about your lawsuit. If Orrin and Co., with much bigger businessses and pins, and being terminated IBO’s when they filed their lawsuit, got booted into arbitration, do you honestly expect not to end up in arbitration?
I also don’t care what someone who doesn’t answer simple tool profit questions has to say. You are a lying cowardly “kinpin”, Ron.
October 13th, 2007 at 10:16 am
I have been able to attend both a team open/nightowl and planning session (prior to everything) and now a meeting where Quixtar representatives talked. Taking into account the versions I have heard from both sides, here were some thoughts that popped into my head (somewhat in a timeline):
Even before all this stuff with team we all got communication that Quixtar was done allowing people to trash their name and was stepping up their efforts. They are putting around $25 million into advertising, etc. Is this a result of the team, or did this start because of the people like Bo Short and happens to be coming to full fruition at this time? Kind of like the teams lawsuit, the amount of effort that would go into the products and advertising couldn’t really happen overnight could it?
I heard a ton about the teams growth, and we won’t know until the end of the year numbers come out, but Quixtar has been stuck at around a billion dollars the last couple years. So did the team growth also include Quixtar growth? If not, (and if Quixtar’s growth numbers this year don’t somewhat correlate with the team it would be a good indication) could that be a reason Quixtar would look at the team tools as a competing business?
I learned about the accredidation process a little. Based on the team materials I had listened to (probably about 22 CD’s, a couple videos and a couple books) I’m guessing most of that would have to be edited since much of it talked “around” Quixtar. Two part question:
1) Could “full disclosure” be the main problem the team had? I’ve compared prices and the Simply Nutrilite and XS lines are cheaper than “quality” competitors prices (for example Red Bull, not some 99 cent can of sugar). I’ve always had a problem with prices, but if the team is in the “sports nutrition” business (as I was told we were going to focus on) and these products are fairly priced, what other “Quixtar” reasons is there since I never heard pyramid on any team materials over all the years until the lawsuit?
2) My impression of Quixtar prior to what they are doing now would be like Ray Kroc selling all him McDonalds and saying, “OK, you have to use our food, but you can set up the store any way you like, solicit business any way you like, and basically run your McDonalds any way you see fit without using our system. All you have to do is purchase our food. If Quixtar wants to clean up its image, and most (if not all) of their lawsuits I’ve seen prior to the teams revolves around tool business, wouldn’t it make sense to create a “system” where everyone is on the same page?
Here is my biggest question that popped up since I couldn’t get answers from my upline on the team……What am I missing? I think both Quixtar and the team are very successful, very rich organizations that butted heads (kind of like a church split). I will not say I agree 100% with either side. But I was fortunate enough to listen to both sides. From Orrin and Chris (again, prior to the lawsuits) and from my sponsor, Platinum and up through Diamond I was told we are a sports nutrition business, we are starting people on a ditto of XS and food bars (that was promoted at our Opens and now Simply Nutrilite adds more cost effective ways to do this also), and as people get started and have success then they will buy more. It just seems like Orrin and the team, who had years of success before XS, etc., were sitting at a perfect position for what I was told we are telling people our product line was, EXCEPT for having to come into compliance with the accredidation process. Am I way off base?
October 13th, 2007 at 10:28 am
This story has a good explanation of the nature of lawsuit. I noticed they used “Amway” in the headline, instead of Quixtar.
They also talked with Orrin’s attorney, Poyfair, I’m not sure what he’s getting paid for, he didn’t know much, except that he is talking to “regulators”. Hey, if the Judicial branch slams the door in your face, why not try the Executive branch? He gets paid either way. Next stop, Congress? Can you say cha-ching? Nothing happens in Congress without a LOT of delay. Looks like Poyfair has a career client in Orrin. Cha-ching..cha-ching….
It also explains why the suit was filed in Ottawa County:
http://blog.mlive.com/grpress/2007/10/amway_sues_to_id_source_of_neg.html
October 13th, 2007 at 11:35 am
This is so ironic. We’ve been begging Amway to sue the negative bloggers out there for at least 5 years that I can recall. They just refused to do it. So there is no doubt our business has been hurt as a result of this inaction.
And now, in a wink of an eye, boom! 26 sites sued? Does this show a pattern of selectivity? One could surmise that Amway is treating TEAM with a different standard of action that others.
October 13th, 2007 at 11:40 am
tex # 57
“If Q is so bad, why doesn’t Orrin’s highly paid lawyers balk?”
here’s the link
http://blog.mlive.com/grpress/2007/10/amway_sues_to_id_source_of_neg.html
here’s the interesting part
“Poyfair said he is meeting with regulators to discuss the allegation Quixtar is an illegal pyramid scheme”
seems the FTC may get to look this over…kind of like you meeting with Q attorneys to share your info about the tools, huh ?
October 13th, 2007 at 12:03 pm
Go for it. I’ve been an IBO for 17-years. I love this company and its predecessor. what you guys (the one’s who are not in support) show is that you simply do not understand what is going on, business wise. I don’t claim to know either but I do know that Amway/Quixtar/Alticor et al should begin to protect their brands, reputation, and all that goes with it, whether they win or loose.
I own two small corporations as well as being an IBO. It takes money and deep pockets to protect a reputation. Sometimes, because of my size I have to look the other way. The Alticor family does not need to behave like a small company has to do. They should do everything they can to protect their reputation and their brands. Therefore, I say, go for it guys - sue the heck out of those that deride the company and send a strong signal that criticism without fact is detrimental to everyone.
October 13th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
SPARTAN #64,
Serving in the miltary and protecting the Constitution does not make the exercising of Q’s rights to enforce an existing court order improper. In fact, quite the opposite. You are fighting to protect our judicial system, which is part of the Constitution, to have its role in our government. At ease.
Also, I don’t want to plant a sword in your chest, but I wouldn’t mind hitting you on the head with some common sense. Perhaps some would sink in.
freedom #66,
You’re missing where Orrin, and most of the other A/Q lying cowardly “kingpins” make most of their money, the tool scam.
Bill,
You can’t (successfully) sue someone for exercising their First Amendment rights. But you can if they are violating a court order. Apples and oranges.
It is a different standard, because it is a different scenario.
October 13th, 2007 at 12:27 pm
When reading the suit in the link above, I could not find any place in the suit that says it has anything to do with possible violation of a court order or discovering if it is a PR scheme.
The suit DOES state it is suing people as individuals (and other entities)for “disparaging Quixtar, its products and its pricing.”
Another section states that defendants are being sued for Discouraging prospective IBOs from joining Quixtar by “disparaging Quixtar’s pricing and products.”
On the other hand,
This blog says, “It could very well be that some of these sites truly are spontaneous, just angry citizens independently voicing their opinions without direction from anyone else. We have no problem with those folks. they are doing”.
That is not the case that seems to be made in the suit. You’ve got Quixtar with millions to spend on attorney’s fees going against individuals for disparaging their products and pricing. If the individual loses they pay $25,000 plus Quixtar’s legal fees to sue them.
I understand that the suit contains much more than what is listed here (keep the blogs short rule). But it is there in the fine print, and we know that we’re held accountable for the fine print. The perspective given in the blog, is not appararent when reading the lawsuit.
If they win the suit against individuals I wonder which view will prevail…the lawyers and the suit or what they wrote in this blog? If Quixtar prevails, is the posting Quixtar put in this blog legally binding with the individual bloggers, if it is found the bloggers are not part of a conpiracy theory?
I certainly hope my posting here isn’t intrepreted as disparaging Quixtar - I might be next defendant.
October 13th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
hey, I just wanted to say thank you to all of you writing the suit! some of the things (video’s and sites) that were listed in your suit I hadn’t seen before. I really wanted to congradulate you on making sure I was able to look in one place to since them all now. Thank you for saving me hours and hours of looking when all i have to do now is copy and paste and there they are… and they are b far some of the funniest I have seen.
Thanks again,
Chicago
October 13th, 2007 at 12:40 pm
ok and I can’t spell either, but hey you get my point
October 13th, 2007 at 12:51 pm
A quote from the Grand Rapids Press article posted by Tex # 67.
“Zeiger said the company will apologize and pay any costs incurred by any of the John Does who turn out not to be tied to Woodward and his TEAM organization of distributors.”
Does this mean if the blogger is a member of TEAM then they are part of the conspiracy?
The statement by Zeiger really sounds like just TEAM bloggers are being singled out rather they are part of a Woodward/PR conspiracy or not.
October 13th, 2007 at 12:52 pm
Interesting how you folks decide to welcome debate after a quarter of a century of indifference.
While it’s very nice the corporation has decided to take a stand of sorts, it really doesn’t change the deception and outright lies that YOU allowed to continue for years and years and years.
The ONLY reason that the corporation is even in this ball game now is because the entire world was able to get at the truth as it is, not as what you and your friends running tools systems purported it to be.
So some IBO’s like Tex may look at you folks with stars in their eyes and admire your tenacity and dedication to IBO’s.
People who have half a brain in their head will remember you as the corporation who praised all these “leaders” while they were deceiving IBO’s, and the corporation who didn’t respond to the Dateline expose because you COULDN’T answer questions in an interview that would be able to explain your role.
So spin it however you want. The fact of the matter is the reason you are doing what you are doing is because information control is not as easy as it used to be.
You and your brethren would have been quite content to let things roll along as they always have.
This comment, for instance, would never see the light of day on a corporation blog even a year or two ago. The only difference now is this message can still get out where everyone affected can see it, whether you like it or not.
So don’t pretend to be a champion of free speech when you folks did everything in your power to silence Sidney Schwartz, Scott Larsen et al.
That’s just crap, and you all know it.
October 13th, 2007 at 1:34 pm
this is a frivolous lawsuit. like alticor/quixtar needs any more money. *sigh*
October 13th, 2007 at 1:44 pm
Alticor uses funny logic. They’ve have had a terrible image online for years. Rcently they’ve sent e-mails to thousands of their IBO’s threatening termination, they posted lies and insults about people that thousands of their IBO’s respected very much, and now the new negetive websites must have Team backing them? It wouldn’t make any sense that any of the other thousands of IBO’s they pissed off would start a negetive web site would it?
Personally I liked Alticor a lot till I read “Just go, Team”. Up till that point I had never had a less than professional interaction with them. When I read the complaint Team filed in LA, I really wanted to take it as a truthful, but I knew I had only one side of the story, I wanted to see how the coporation would respond. Their reponse and the allegations made in the suit fit perfectly, while the allegations made by Alticor and what I know of Team didn’t fit at all. While the Team site asked no one to speak negetivly of Amway or Quixtar, Alticor was posting “Just go, Team” and sending out e-mails. We all have different perspectives, but from mine it looks like Alticor has had way more to do with the litter of negetive websites than anythng Team did.
October 13th, 2007 at 1:48 pm
FINALLY…one of your own who is willing to admit their ongoing doubts and honesty about where Q is & how the “golden boys” became the most dangerous thing out there since typhoid fever
http://makingthedecision.blogspot.com/
October 13th, 2007 at 2:16 pm
Alticor/Amway
“People of integrity expect to be believed and when they’re not they let time prove them right.”
Also, “you can’t stop and idea whose time has come.”
Maybe it’s time you dust off the ol mirror have a look. . . and then calm the monster that has so much vengence pent up that they have to go after free thinking individuals who can clearly recognize fact from spin.
October 13th, 2007 at 2:27 pm
dannie #69,
I’m in favor of the FTC getting involved. It’s about time, they should have been involved years ago. I wrote them and talked with them, recommending they shut down the tool scam. Unfortunately, they didn’t get involved, and as far as I know, didn’t get involved even after the UK DTI shut down the tool scam and sponsoring in the UK until this mess goes to court.
The Q lawyers weren’t interested in shutting down the tool scam, that wasn’t their assignment. Their job was to gather evidence I personally witnessed at Opens and a Seminar. I told them about the tool scam, but that wasn’t what they wanted to evidence for.
Rob #70,
Criticism without fact can also be libel and slander. And that can cost you money, and lots of it. Orrin is in deep trouble.
October 13th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
Rico #72,
It’s in paragraph 29.
The reason for the subpoenas is to find out who is behind them, and whether or not these individuals are, or are paid, by Orrin and Co.
As far as “I certainly hope my posting here isn’t intrepreted as disparaging Quixtar - I might be next defendant.”, it all depends on who you are and whether you are being encouraged or paid by Orrin and Co. to post here.
Thanks guys #73,
You’re welcome.
If you’ve seen one of them, you’ve essentially seen all of them. If they aren’t easy for you to find, they won’t be easy for the typical person to find. However, ALL of them were found by Q and are being investigated. Thanks again.
October 13th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
Thanks guys - Your right. I had no idea that was out there. Thanks for putting that all in one place for me!
October 13th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
AEM #78, that’s also how I felt when I read that initial Alticor Blog post, but I also knew from my own previous research that the lawsuit was frivolous and baseless. More and more, it seems possible that the Team leadership didn’t really anticipate that Alticor would call their bluff on their demand for exemption from certain rules, and decide to let Team proceed to file the suit and then defend it. Go have a read of the most recent posts at the IBOAI blog where our friend (if he doesn’t mind being referred to that way by me, a Quixtar supporter) Utah is exchanging points of view with their moderators.
http://www.iboaiblog.com/my_weblog/2007/10/legal-update—.html
At the end of the day, if you are hard core committed to supporting Team leadership regardless of competing points of view, you will color their actions with the paint and hues of your choosing.
Rocket #76 does make a point that Alticor wrongly took it all laying down for too long. But at the same time, you have to give them credit for changing — I love all the Transformation pieces coming together, including admissions from Alticor management that they do have room to improve, and are doing so. Check out the latest post from Todd Krause yesterday about the major make-over to the Sales support team:
http://adatudes.opportunityzone.com/2007/10/12/A-New-Direction-for-Quixtar-Sales.aspx
For myself, I’m delighted that they are finally getting consistent after many years of picking daisy petals (”they love us, they love us not”) and are defending and promoting the integrity of my business.
Which, by the way, has continued to grow the past two months.
October 13th, 2007 at 3:33 pm
Bridgett #54, No TEAM is not an MLM. So like I said, mute point.
AEM #61, I don’t blame you for not waiting till Dec. 31. I sent the proper forms to Q to remove my wife from the business the first week of Sept. It didn’t get processed though until the first week of Oct. They must of had a lot of mail/faxes sitting on top of it that it took so long to get to. My wife will be free the first week of April to do as SHE pleases. I will not be building another business until June 08 at the earliest. I may assist my wife in her business though if I so decide to do so.
Qs own actions are what is causing all of these problems. If they get any site shut down then we as P.Od IBOs and former IBOs should flood the internet with so many blogs that the lawyers wont know where to start. Doing all of this as individuals, free thinking individuals expressing our First Amendment rights of course.
October 13th, 2007 at 3:39 pm
To all of you defending TEAM - doing a fabulous job. To those with some good remarks on either side - well done. To those who haven’t a clue defending Q to the highest, go get a clue including Tex.
I am so dumbfounded at this continual grasping at ’something’ possibly just air by Quixtar that I’m not even sure how to respond. They were court ordered within 24 hours of the order to send an apology out to all IBOs for the slanderous degradation and threatening email they sent out to all IBOs. Has anyone seen or rec’d this apology? I haven’t. I haven’t even received a confirmation of our resignation but we are not in their system any longer. We even mailed our resignation by certified mail. So far, we haven’t received that confirmation either. Knowing who they are, they can and will continue to stoop to the lowest level of battering innocent people, people of character, morals, principals, integrity, and credibiity. They have none of these qualities. They only believe in their court orders, in their own County where they won, not the other counties of Michigan where they lost, and other states courts where they lost. Guess they feel or think they are above those laws and don’t have to believe or respect those. Know they said something about respecting or believing in the legal system somewhere in that extremely childish piece of jibberish. The only integrity there was, was the father’s who developed Amway. They had the integrity and principals to build in a ‘protection’ for the IBO/Distributor first with the ADA originally then becoming the IBOAI, before even developing the Amway Corporation. The sons have gotten lost somewhere along the way, losing what Amway and their fathers stood for. Then lawyers who have no clue what the original Amway was all about got added to the mix. They have become filled with Greed and Power, through marriage, alogn with other entities that aren’t necessarily filled with the belief system we have all been taught by the great leaders of our time, Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Dr. Rohm, John Maxwell, James C Hunger of The Servent, Bruce Wilkinson of The Dream Giver, Gary Chapman of The 5 Love Languages, even C. Mason Weaver of ‘It’s Ok to Leave the Plantation, etc, and of course our own TEAM leadership and their insights and wisdom and Godly manners and thinking and giving. It is such a shame that the people of Quixtar do not see that we are people learning how to live a better life, learn leadership, help others become successful in life and business - it’s not about products. One can get products and services anywhere. One can become a salesperson anywhere and/or create their own sale business if they desire. They are material things. All that has nothing to do with being a Leader and helping build relationships and a better way of life. We feel sorry for them and the road they have chosen. They only know about money & power and think that is the key to life, to control others vs leading others to a better way of life. We believe we live in the United States of America, the land of the FREE, and Home of the BRAVE. Quixtar has lost so many thousands of IBOs…..are they in a form of ‘mental’ shock? They’re not intelligent enough to figure out that there are just that many hurt, disgruntled, angry, frustrated ex-IBOs out here. All current IBOs who are sticking w/Q know is selling product and/or purchasing products & services. All Q knows is their selling Amroids making a little bit of money off and on who are making money for the Empire. We who had the guts to see the truth and leave Q are hurt people who’ve put almost 18 yrs of our life into believing in something only to get kicked and walked on by Q’s total deception. We only hung in there because of our loyalty to our leadership and we will continue to stay loyal to our leadership, our TEAM. It is through them and them alone (of course God first, then TEAM) that we have learned to be better people, treat people better, understand people better, have a better family life, work at bringing our dreams and the dreams of others to fruition.
Quixtar - why you don’t you just leave well enough alone, pick up your toys & go home like good little kiddies. Take time to read your non-sense of a Code of Conduct that is full of contradictions - one rule contradicting another - it’s absolutely nuts! And you who own a couple of your own Corporations, go read rules under #3, #4 and #6 to see if you’re violating their ‘rules.’
Leave us good people alone to go our own ways, wait out the illegal waiting period imposed on us within the last 2-3 yrs by Quixtar, so we can move forward into a bigger and better future. MLM - we’ve never heard of anything new. Our Leaders of people of integrity and character and principal. Q is the one hanging on to all this stupid legal garbage acting worse than 2 yr olds.
Bloggers - Ex-IBOs who are sick of all this mess and control by Quixtar, maybe we all need to flood the Federal Trade Commission with complaints. With enough complaints, maybe they will have to research the Company again - one would hope. Believe they keep going in to check on Q every couple of years every time Q changes the Plan, which Q’s fathers developed the ADA to protect against ie the Nutrilite Corp did to them. They wanted to make sure Amway could not change the Plan on the distributors as Nutrilite corp did to them. Then for your info, they bought out the Nutrilite corp. Nutrilite was not always part of Amway. They were their own entity prior to Amway.
After seeing so many on here defending TEAM, I am hopeful this will be posted. Other Amway/Alticor/Quixtar blog sites that are vicious and degrading to TEAM won’t post anything I’ve submitted (only about 2 cause I don’t spend time at their sites)
We are 100% with the Free, the Faithful, the Hopeful, the Believers, the Visionaries, the Leadership of TEAM!
1 Million and Beyond
FLR/Warrior Princess in Az.
October 13th, 2007 at 3:50 pm
Just came across this article…
Looks like CBS News believes we aren’t independant business owners anymore too, we are now hired to work for Q (where are my benefits!)….
From the 3rd paragraph (capitalization added for emphasis)…
“Quixtar develops and manufactures nutrition, beauty and cleaning products that are marketed in the United States and Canada through a tiered selling system, HIRING entrepreneurs to sell its products.”
Read the full article here…
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/13/business/main3364365.shtml
October 13th, 2007 at 4:11 pm
rico #75,
This isn’t against anyone from TEAM, it depends on whether they were directed, or supported, especially financially, by the folks in the lawsuit, which presumably includes Haugen and Wilson.
Also, from #72, the amount the John Doe figures could be liable for is much more than $25,000, this is the amount of damage that was exceeded, not a limit on the potential fines.
rocket #76,
You are wrong about me. Although I agree with most of what you said, I have never said ANYTHING that could be construed as “So some IBO’s like Tex may look at you folks with stars in their eyes and admire your tenacity and dedication to IBO’s.” I have criticized A/Q, mostly for their lack of following through to the “Directly Speaking” recordings, on this and other blogs, to Q attorneys, and to government regulators.
I could have quit and been like you, one of many detached, uninformed, former IBO’s like yourself, but I felt I would have more influence to change things, and I have by the way, than any former IBO could dream of having.
Bee #77,
This is not so much about winning fines in court, it is about protecting a reputation that is worth billions of dollars.
AEM #78,
You won’t find anything close coming from Quixtar as what is posted on those TEAM web sites. From bloggers like me perhaps, but not from Q. The Go TEAM entry was clearly written against Orrin and Co., not rule following TEAM IBO’s. Nice try, but that dog don’t hunt. Free speech is a beautiful thing.
You see, the corp allows all points of view on their blogs, TEAM doesn’t (neither does the IBOAI, but that’s another story). This will probably cause major legal problems with the TEAM blogs.
Big Bob #80,
“People of integrity expect to be believed and when they’re not they let time prove them right.” —- That’s right, the people of Q expected Orrin and Co. to “fly right” or they would get kicked out, and when they didn’t, over a period of several years, they finally did the right thing and booted them.
Also, “you can’t stop and idea whose time has come.” —- Right again. The idea was to kick Orrin and Co. out, and the time already came, because they’re gone.
SPARTAN #83,
See my post #82, in reponse to #73. You’re welcome as well.
October 13th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
Look, the story made it to the “bigtime”, CBS news:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/13/business/main3364365.shtml
October 13th, 2007 at 5:02 pm
The way most of team members recite the phrase (people of integrity expect to be believed and when they’re not they let time prove them right) you would think that big bad orrin thought that one on his own. Truth be told , Orrin got that one from a LOYAL double diamond in the Yager group.
October 13th, 2007 at 5:05 pm
#86 Fran, happy to have you… FYI that your post was a bit looong. Would prefer seeing comments shortened or at least broken into pieces. Thanks.
October 13th, 2007 at 5:40 pm
capt amway #90
its from a book about business he didnt write it neither did the double diamond.
i think the law suit is to keep the team people off you pages from expressing their opinions. some are still in quixtar still so whats the deal?
very strategic in the legal sense
just my thoughts,
October 13th, 2007 at 6:10 pm
I’ll be surprised if they find a huge conspiracy. So many people have computer skills and it is easy to put up a website and create videos.
The CBS article can’t be good PR for Quixtar. People already distrust large rich corporations. It may easily be intrepreted as abully attacking the little kid.The next generation where IBOs need to come from may identify more with the bloggers in question. That article is out on the web and now part of Quixtar’s legacy, like Amway/Dateline stories.
For their sake, they need to find a conspiracy, if they end up winning against individuals who are former IBOs–they will still lose in the court of public opinion with the You-tube/myspace generation.
October 13th, 2007 at 6:16 pm
rdknyvr #84,
Thanks for posting the link again. I did in 49, but it is worth reading. Ada-tudes blog has a better approach than Alticor.
Friend? I don’t know you, but I will take that as a compliment. I am not sure I am a Quixtar supporter right now, as Q/A has ticked me off but I haven’t told either Team or Q/A to get lost yet. I have $1000 including travel, etc. and $2000 of time riding on the next function. I hope I learn something.
That said, I agree there have been mistakes on both sides, just trying to see where they were. JB @ the IBOAI blog tells you what he thinks to be accurate. It is worth asking him to find out If I miss-read what happened. That doesn’t mean he is always right, but I have respected his answers and posts. There is another person manning the blog there as well.
I am sad in a way that Alticor’s last lawsuit hit the CBS news. It will make the whole country think Q/A are idiots. Perhaps the attorneys are, but there are good people on both sides.
October 13th, 2007 at 7:14 pm
Tex,
Stand up, I think this whole issue is going over your head
October 13th, 2007 at 7:16 pm
Here’s the best comment I found to this.
I find it completely comical for you to demand the bloggers to “come out and fight in the broad daylight.” This from the company who hides in the shadows of arbitration at all cost.
October 13th, 2007 at 9:01 pm
Steve #85,
It doesn’t matter whether TEAM is an MLM or not, it IS a networking organization, so it is still prohibited for at least 6 months.
Fran L #86,
Nice novel. I haven’t read so much that said so little in a long time.
I have stated my issues with Q, but they pale in comparison to TEAM and their tool scam.
I found you dumb as well, you state Q is continually “grasping at ’something’ possibly just air”, then say you don’t know how to respond, so you don’t even know how to grasp? I don’t call court victory after court victory “grasping” in any way, unless you include the certain part of Orrin’s anatomy they are grasping. Tightly.
So they ignored the court order, which may have expired. Where is Orrin’s attorney? Is he crying foul, or crying to the FTC? I hope he gets the FTC involved, then they’ll get to the bottom of the tool scam, as has been done in the UK. I didn’t get an apology, and don’t want one from Q nearly as much as from TEAM and all the other lying cowardly “kingpins” in other LOS/LOA’s.
Bub-bye.
They also won in CA and TX, what are you talking about? You have a deep lack of understanding the current state of affairs and the judicial system in general.
Their fathers stood for something, but never followed through. Now the sons have to clean up the mess, hopefully they can do this before the government shuts them down.
You are toking on some serious stuff if you think Orrin and Co. can be compared to the great ideas and men you mentioned. They are lying cowards, pure and simple.
One can get products and services anywhere? Then go get ‘em.
I agree the rules are far too complex, but Orrin was given several years to make corrections, and kept screwing up the same rules.
It was Orrin who started the legal battle, with his “illegal pyramid” lawsuit.
Yes, please do contact the FTC, we need more focus on the tool scam. The ADA Board never had approval authority, it was always for input.
Princess, there is moss growing on your tarnished crown.
October 13th, 2007 at 9:20 pm
Steve #87,
Do you believe every word CBS, or any other news organization for that matter, writes or says?
Captain Amway #90,
I heard that one from Billy Florence first (you know, former the lying coward of an IBO?), who said it before him? Also, do you wear a cape?
CC #91,
Thank you, that message was painful. Plenty of words, no facts.
rico #93,
Even with the CBS article, this still isn’t exactly front page news, although I’ve noticed the story has been picked up by a LOT of news organizations over the past couple of hours.
Utah #94,
Adatudes and Opportunity Zone are wimpy.
I recommend saving your money and staying home, they will tell you what happened, all you have to do is ask, as TEAM is desperate for membership.
JB on the IBOAI site operates very much like the freetheibo forum. As long as you kiss up to him, you get posted. If you disagree, you get banned, as I did. Remember, he runs a PR outfit, as the freetheibo forum moderator does. In fact, I understand the freetheibo moderator also works for the Michigan Governor, who recently beat Dick DeVos in an election.
AEM #95,
I could lay down and still be ahead of you, standing on your tippy-toes.
Lajinito #96,
You probably would too, if you were a big corp with a reputation to protect.
October 13th, 2007 at 9:55 pm
Looks like Scott Larsen needs to be added to the defendent list, if the subpoenas are successful and a linkage to Orrin and Co. is proven. He will be the first “John Doe” who’s name is known. Way to be stupid again, Scott. Read his last sentence:
http://www.amquix.info/quixtar_youtube_suit.html
October 13th, 2007 at 10:30 pm
c’mon Tex…no response to this site ?
http://makingthedecision.blogspot.com/
especially the paragraphs ( in the first posting 10/1 ) where they state that they NEVER saw any attempts to re-train or remediate anything about Woodward / Brady…maybe because Q did NOT actually do anything of the sort !
and this is coming from someone who didn’t like Team…was glad we were being “finally punished”…but amazingly enough, now that he’s reading both sides of this argument, a few things just don’t add up.
yep…cause Q’s calculator is broke !!
October 13th, 2007 at 10:35 pm
Hey tex The double diamond who said that phrase all the time was scott michael and yes I do wear a cape. I am here to defend and protect against all evil sources.
October 13th, 2007 at 10:48 pm
I noticed several blogs have gone dark, epecially those not listed.
I also noticed the following have picked up this law suit:
WOOD TV 8 Grand Rapids - Oct 13 10:23 AM
AP via Yahoo! News - Oct 13 3:48 PM
CBS News - Oct 13 11:30 AM
WOAI - Oct 13 4:08 PM
Lexington Herald-Leader - Oct 13 3:55 PM
WSYR 9 Syracuse - Oct 13 4:08 PM
The Times of India - 1 minute ago
The Grand Rapids Press - Oct 12 11:43 PM
As of 10:47pm ET
The two that caught my eye were CBS and India.
Is Q/A trying to get more bad press?
October 13th, 2007 at 10:50 pm
Tex #98
Do you believe everything that Amway tells you?
October 13th, 2007 at 11:17 pm
Tex:
TEAM is not desperate for membership. The upcoming conference is already oversold. I don’t recall reading any comments from IBOs stating they are resigning their TEAM membership, but I sure have read plenty of resignations from Quixtar.
I think you must have meant Q/A is desperate….
October 14th, 2007 at 12:04 am
Here we go again.
Someone (from TEAM)please expalin why you are still on this site? You have accused A/Q of everything except alien abductions. You have called this business illegal and keep telling all of us how you are quitting to go on to this next GREAT thing of yours…but your still here. You were supporters of a failed lawsuit to damage or destroy this company and business opportunity…but your still here.
WHY?
If you really dont want to be part of A/Q and how the business has “evolved” “changed” or “betrayed” you, then move on. This cannot be worth your time. I have not seen any posts trying to talk about your better way,just insults and personal attacks you call responses to IBO attacks.
If this is not a business you want to be part of…why do you care what we think of you? Why do you need these negative IBO sites? The courts have said you have no case and the contract you signed is correct and enforcable. This is a blog for IBO’s which many of you clearly say you don’t want to be or support.
OK, That is fine with us….now leave and start your next great thing.
This is getting seriously OLD! I look to this blog for information on this business and what is happening within our business community. There are plenty of places you can go and “vent”. By staying here, you reduce yourselves to a bunch of 12 year olds screaming that life in unfair when they get caught doing something they should have known better about.
Life Moves Pretty Fast…If You Don’t Take A Look Around Sometimes…You Could Miss It.
October 14th, 2007 at 12:33 am
AmwayBloggAdmin: where do I post a blog about Team? You tell other bloggers not to post certain comments in certain places… Where is the Blog that says “Just Go Team”? Why is that gone?
October 14th, 2007 at 12:59 am
TMR,
If this were the thread with the topic about the new hotel I could see your point. Considering the topic of this thread, are you seriously confused as to why someone associated with TEAM would post here? C’mon.
October 14th, 2007 at 1:19 am
I’m interested to see where all this will lead. This is strictly opinion, but I am coming up in my mind with three possible reasons for this. Anyone have additional ideas (not just bad mouthing, but actual thoughts) I’m not thinking of?
1) Quixtar found something in a post that only a member of the IBOAI board would know. Or something similar. Basically they read (and copied I’m sure) something they feel they can prove regular IBO’s couldn’t have known and, therefor, this person could only post if they received information from someone on the IBOAI board or something like that.
2) To fight fire with fire in their eyes. I read the team hired lawyers and, whether it was the team or the lawyers (it didn’t specify) also hired a PR firm who’s sole purpose was a negative campaign against Quixtar. By going after websites (and possibly more in the future) they are starting an offensive of their own for PR reasons.
3) Even though I’ve personally witnessed leadership of the team (including a Diamond) speak at and attend functions after they were kicked out and lost the Michigan lawsuits (it was shortly after though), I can’t believe they would be dumb enough to do something that could trace back to them.
So maybe I’m naive, but my 3rd thought that I’m leaning towards is this: If Quixtar can track ANY remarks that goes against Quixtar rules and/or lawsuits back to the PR company, and since the PR company was either hired by the team or hired by the lawyers the team hired, Quixtar feels they can in some way prove team people guilty since it’s their money paying for the websites and bad remarks.
Any other thoughts?
October 14th, 2007 at 1:51 am
Just a quick word on the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution and its relation of the general claim of freedom of speech in society. Specifically, the 1st Amendment reads,
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”
The Cornell University Law School web site sates, “The Supreme Court interprets the extent of the protection afforded to these rights. The First Amendment has been interpreted by the Court as applying to the entire federal government even though it is only expressly applicable to Congress.”
Okay, why all this legal stuff? It is worth knowing the 1st Amendment applies to the government: federal, state, and local, and not private individuals. It is there to keep the government from abridging free speech, etc. It is not applicable to private institutions, organizations, etc.
So when Alticor says, “not attack First Amendment Speech,” it is actually inapplicable, because the First Amendment only applies to the government. And when an individual lays claim to First Amendment rights to, say, expressing their opinion on a blog, the First Amendment doesn’t apply.
However, since a lot of people think it does, laying claim usually works.
Just a little tidbit I learned a couple of years ago. : )
October 14th, 2007 at 2:30 am
TMR #105
If you want to findout what Quixtar is doing, go the the Ada-tudes blog website, or the IBOAI website (that banned Tex).
If you want to see Alticor bash Team, that is what Alticor has been doing here since 8/10. (With the exception of a few posts, such as the new cool hotel, and a few links about Amway having a hard time in the UK and India and what they are doing about it.)
Some other blogs are back. If you want a list, see the suit link at the top. Realize that all blogs have some bias, including the pro Alticor, pro Team or other sites.
If you wonder why some “Team” IBOs are here, realize that not all in the “Team” LOS quit. Some are trying to decide what to do, some are mad at the way Alticor has been acting, and some want to help fix Q/A. Since this blog is aimed at trashing Team, some former IBOs are here to defend leaders that they have trusted.
The only blogger I suspect is being paid is Tex, but I can’t figure out who is paying him.
October 14th, 2007 at 3:29 am
Tex, #88. Tell me what I’m uninformed about.
I’ve been around the negative truths longer than you, so please feel free to fill me in on what my blog hasn’t covered yet.
You’re the one always complaining about the tools, yet insisting that Amway prices are competitive.
So what am I uninformed about?
October 14th, 2007 at 3:39 am
“There is one way to avoid criticism: never do anything, never amount to anything. Never get your head above the crowd so the jealous will notice and attack you. Criticism is a sign that your personality has some force.” - April 2007 calendar
October 14th, 2007 at 6:53 am
dannie #100,
It’s just one of many blog sites out there. I prefer the one that has credibility, which is this one. If you read the comments, the poster backs down on this issue. Also, Orrin hasn’t protested over this issue for 2 months, don’t you think he and his lawyers would have by now? Turn on your common sense.
Captain Amway #101,
You mean Double Diamond Scott Michael, or Double Diamond pin Scott Michael? Do you know the difference?
However, I believe you’re right, my recollection was in error. However, after a while all the lying cowards tend to blend together.
Here’s a post that confirms what you say, interesting how the person refers to Chuck Goetschel as someone better than Scott, yet Chuck is the one who has been booted.
Regarding the cape, are you gay?
Utah #102,
The press does what they want to do, mostly try to outdo each other with titillating stories. I guess this story rose to that level, and once the momentum starts, ALL of them get on the bandwagon.
Lajinito #103,
No.
cmon. people.think #104,
Ever hear of Custer’s Last Stand? This is exactly what Quixtar WANTS them to do, get together in one place and slaughter them (in a businesslike manner, of course). This function has all the markings of the last one TIF held. Have you seen the Andy Andrews clip on youtube? Orrin is actually ahead of Andy, he’s already been booted, Andy was still hanging on by a thread at that time.
TMR #105,
If you look hard enough in the various TEAM blogs, you could probably find some alien abductions. Every other type of ridiculous idea is there. I think you’re giving them far too much credit by calling them 12 year olds, I was thinking more like 2 or 3.
confused #106,
Yes, you are (confused, that is). You have to page back to August 10th. It’s there.
October 14th, 2007 at 9:31 am
freedom #108,
I think what you have offered is speculation and some, all, or none of it may be true.
We have enough facts to work with the much more important issue, the tool scam, that I am willing to wait until this plays out.
The Big Apple #109,
I would guess Cornell said that because it is Congress’ job to make laws, so it is assumed the other branches of the federal government can’t take something away that has been assigned to Congress, whether it be making laws in general, or the First Amendment in particular.
However, by extention, this also means a non-government agency can’t use the government to stop the free speech of another non-government agency, UNLESS that speech is determined to be libel or slander. The court order TEAM received was to put TEAM on notice that because they are in conflict with Q, they need to stay quiet until the legal issues are played out in court and/or arbitration. In other words, the court is protecting Q’s right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty.
Therefore, free speech does have its limitations, even when non-governmental agencies are involved. Our freedoms come with equal levels of responsibilities. If we don’t know the nuances, we are more likely to lose them.
In summation, if Orrin and Co. are behind even one of these blogs, they are in BIG trouble.
Utah #110,
“The only blogger I suspect is being paid is Tex, but I can’t figure out who is paying him.” When you find out who it is, let me know, because they are VERY late in paying me.
rocket #111,
I explained it in #88. If you want to know more, ask a specific question.
John #112,
Thanks, I believe that is true about me, when others criticize my position on the tool scam.
There is a second way of being criticized, it’s when you scam people. Don’t assume all criticism is unwarranted, as your quote implies.
October 14th, 2007 at 9:54 am
I can’t believe I am actually anseringTex, because it’s like answering a wall, but here goes:
Tex, 1. you keep complaining about something that you think should hve been fixed in 1983 — how many years ago is that? do you ever move on?
2. the ftc has not addressed the issue because they have been bought off by none other than DeVos. Read all about it.
http://www.localareawatch.org/2005/08/welcome_street_.html
October 14th, 2007 at 9:54 am
Tex has to be a company employee. He spends so much time typing on this blog this has to be his job. Unless he is an IBO that is too chicken to contact anyone and thinks he is building his Quixtar business by making comments on a blog. If that is the case, why don’t you dust off your product shelf instead?
October 14th, 2007 at 11:00 am
Moderator,
This is a direct question to you. Is the corporation going to go after any and every blogger that is/was affiliated with TEAM, even though he/she was not part of the restraining order that prevents a few people associated with TEAM from saying anything negative about the corporation? For example, if one of the bloggers was hundreds of people in depth from Orrin, and Orrin has no direct knowledge of this person, and this person is one of the bloggers, is the Corporation going to take this person to court?
From the way the lawsuit was filed, it sounds like the corporation would. It sounds like a huge witch hunt to me!!
October 14th, 2007 at 11:48 am
No, you didn’t explain it Tex. You said in #88 that you didn’t become a detached, uninformed ex-ibo like myself.
I’ll ask again, since you seem to be struggling with this:
What am I uninformed about? I’m also curious as to what changes you and you alone implemented?
You must be doing something outside the internet, because I don’t think anyone has seem a significant contribution by you.
Prices still aren’t that great, and the tools systems are still alive and well…
October 14th, 2007 at 12:12 pm
Tex isnt’ worth my time. Nor is Alticor/Quixtar…oops, Amyway…anymore. I have terminated my business and will be free in a few months. My decision to terminate my business had absolutely nothing to do with comments posted on any blog, but rather with what has been posted, and actions taken, by Quixtar. I will not be associated with an organization that blatantly misrepresents the facts, stoops to personal attacks, and has no regard for those who bring in the revenue. This latest court action by A/Q is nothing more than vindictiveness and proves my point.
October 14th, 2007 at 12:14 pm
Tex:
I think you’re overworking yourself on this blog. You said TEAM was desperate for members, I said they are not, and now you say it’s Custer’s Last Stand? What does that have to do with supposedly being desperate for members? I think you need to check your meds and take some time off… I’m sure your doctor can find something to ease your paranoid psychosis and ranting lunacy.
Quixtar is going to “slaughter” us? Wow, I guess your flashbacks are getting worse now? There are lots of programs for disturbed vets. Have you tried one?
October 14th, 2007 at 12:16 pm
WHOSE BRIGHT IDEA IN THE COMPANY WS THIS ?
WHY DON’E YOU POST HIS OR HER NAME ON YOUR SITE SO YOU CAN SEE HOW IT PLAYS OUT.
WHY NOT LET THEM COME OUT IN THE LIGHT AND NOT HIDE BEHIND YOUR COMPANY CURTAIN OF SECRETS
SUING PEOPLE THAT HAVE A BEEF WITH YOUR PRODUCT OR SERVICES SOUNDS STUPID AND SHORT SITED
REST ASSURED I AND MILLIONS OF OTHERS SEE THIS AS A ATTEMPT TO SUPRESS THE TRUTH ABOUT YOU AND YOUR OPERATIONS
October 14th, 2007 at 12:21 pm
Tex [#114, RE: my # 109]
I agree. The Supreme Court extended 1st Amendment protections beyond Congress. And, I agree with what Alticor is doing, which is looking to see if Team violated a court order through these web sites.
My actual purpose in bringing up the topic was to put things in perspective for those who claim that their 1st Amendment rights are being violated when a non-governmental entity squelches what they say. For example, you could claim (not that you have made this claim) that the IBOAI is restricting your free speech rights by not posting the comments they don’t like on their web site. Others could and have done the same with other web sites, or other forums sponsored by other entities.
The right to free speech doesn’t apply in these situations. It is only with the government that it applies.
I bring this up to inform people so they can adjust their expectations if necessary.
October 14th, 2007 at 12:47 pm
Hey tex #113 Of course the captain knows the difference between double diamond and double diamond pin. When a IBO hits a pin level, some increase business to where they are headed to the next level and a lot drop volume to where they are headed back a bit or a lot. Pin level just means highest level achieved. And regarding the cape. The captain only has eyes for the ladies.
October 14th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
Guerrillas in the midst?…when I saw that I thought it was going to be something worthwhile…[sigh]
This is a “necessary measure in a commercial dispute”? That sounds funny, cause wasn’t it the Quixtar/Amway/Alticor blogs that started the mud slinging match back in August? Kinda reminds me of the personality disorder that a person will think that their significant other is cheating on them, only because they are cheating on the sig. other, and then when the cards are down the sig. other is the faithful one.
If this is not attack on free speech as you so bluntly put it then what is it? Commercial dispute still sounds like an attack on free speech if you ask me.
The Internet can hide a face, but the message will ring clear. I say this not because of what has been said or what will be said in the future, I say this cause on the internet, that is all we have to discern ourselves from one another, for the time being.
October 14th, 2007 at 1:43 pm
Everything legal aside, I believe Alticor harmed their own reputation more than any site listed in the complaint. The writing on their corporate blog is very unprofessional and at times insulting. One day they post “Just go, Team” the next they send me a e-mail saying that Team was planning on creating a competing business, breaking the rules of conduct as well as the law and anybody associated with Team would have been taught to do the same. None of which has turned out to be true. So after lying about people I respect very much and trying to make it sound like staying with Team is a rules violation, they send me more e-mails talking about how they are committed to their IBO’s and look forward to a great future. Alticor, what you do speaks to loud for to read what you say. Don’t take that literally, it makes no sense literally.
Anybody else get the feeling that Alticor isn’t interested in having North American IBO’s much longer?
October 14th, 2007 at 1:50 pm
LisBette #115,
1. That’s the point, the tool scam needs to “move on”, not me. 1983 is 24 years ago. Rich stated they had been trying to get the lying cowardly “kingpins” in line for about 3 years prior to making his recording, so you can estimate about 27 years. The scam itself had probably been growing for about a decade prior to that, about 37 years. Slavery existed for hundreds of years in this country. Should we have instead accepted it and just “moved on”?
2. Do you have any proof the FTC has not addressed the issue because they have been bought off by none other than DeVos? Read all about it? Where?
Victor Roper #116,
I don’t have a “product shelf”, that concept largely went away with the advent of Quixtar, which leaves me even more time to blog.
Lajinito #117,
Although Quixtar would have an interest to do as you state, they know their legal limitations. You need to read the lawsuit again, it is NOT a “huge witch hunt” against all TEAM or any other IBO, it is for those individuals who first sued Q. Get a grip.
rocket #118,
No, you didn’t explain it Tex. You said in #88 that you didn’t become a detached, uninformed ex-ibo like myself. —- I said a lot more than that, read it again. Slowly.
I’ll tell you again, since you seem to be struggling with this:
What am I uninformed about? I’m also curious as to what changes you and you alone implemented? —- You totally mischaracterized my feelings toward A/Q.
You must be doing something outside the internet, because I don’t think anyone has seem a significant contribution by you. —- You better believe I’m doing something outside the internet, and I have stated that in the past. Try to keep up.
Prices still aren’t that great, and the tools systems are still alive and well… —- You are wrong when making that statement about the UK, and there will be more changes in the U.S. as well.
Broom #119,
You’re not worth my time, either. But other IBO’s and prospects reading this are. You see, I’m fed up with sweeping the tool scam under the rug, broom. There’s a lot of garbage under there that can’t be hidden any longer. We need to take out the trash, not sweep it under the rug.
What’s an “Amyway”?
Oh, I get it, you don’t have time because you’re learning how to spell big, 2 syllable words.
Bub-bye.
cmon.people.think #120,
I think I’m overworking your brain on this blog. I said TEAM was desperate for members, you said they are not, and now I say it’s Custer’s Last Stand. What does that have to do with supposedly being desperate for members? If you don’t think about it, nothing. Ignorance is bliss. But if you think it through, TEAM is in some major trouble, with the arbitration and now the alleged court order violation. I think you need to check your meds and take some time off… I’m sure your doctor can find something to ease your paranoid psychosis and ranting lunacy.
Quixtar is going to “slaughter” Orrin and Co. Not physically, but financially. Wow, I guess your flashbacks are getting worse now? There are lots of programs for disturbed vets. Have you tried one?
October 14th, 2007 at 1:58 pm
Come out and fight in broad daylight?!?!?! IT IS A/Q/A THAT HIDES!! Every dispute you have is done behind closed doors in arbitration. Let’s see them actually let a case go to public court if they want to be in the daylight and see what public opinion would be.
October 14th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
LANCE OSTENDORF #121,
All caps is considered yelling in the blog world, I’m surprised the moderator hasn’t commented on this to you. Don’t worry, I’ll be meeting with them tomorrow, I’ll remind them at that time.
WHOSE BRIGHT IDEA IN THE COMPANY WS THIS? —- What is “this”?
WHY DON’E YOU POST HIS OR HER NAME ON YOUR SITE SO YOU CAN SEE HOW IT PLAYS OUT.
WHY NOT LET THEM COME OUT IN THE LIGHT AND NOT HIDE BEHIND YOUR COMPANY CURTAIN OF SECRETS —- Because we haven’t scammed anyone, that’s why. You get more open and honest communication this way.
SUING PEOPLE THAT HAVE A BEEF WITH YOUR PRODUCT OR SERVICES SOUNDS STUPID AND SHORT SITED —- Stupid would be misspelling “sighted”, it is not “sited”. The reason for the new lawsuit is to enforce the court order. What’s wrong with that?
REST ASSURED I AND MILLIONS OF OTHERS SEE THIS AS A ATTEMPT TO SUPRESS THE TRUTH ABOUT YOU AND YOUR OPERATIONS —- Suppressing truth is done much more effectively by the IBOAI and freetheibo blogs, they have banned many for no reason other than they have a different opinion.
The Big Apple #122,
You are correct.
In fact, when I was banned from qblog (the first time), I complained they draped themselves under the First Amendment protection, but didn’t like ideas that did not agree with theirs. Although they had every right to ban me, doing so is not in the spirit of free speech. They thought I felt it was my First Amendment right not to be banned, but they misunderstood and/or refused to understand my beef with their decision. If I thought they violated my First Amendment right, I would have sued them long ago.
Just like I have an issue with other sites banning me, but agreeing it is their right to do so. For example, the IBOAI, which is run very much like the freetheibo blog used to be run by a PR firm, so is the IBOAI forum. I requested my $9 back, and I encourage all other IBO’s to do the same. All it takes is a simple letter to Quixtar. The IBOAI does not represent IBO’s, they represent maintaining their tool scam profit, which is FAR more than their Q income.
Captain Amway #123,
Good, many IBO’s haven’t thought about this very much. I’m glad you only have an eye for the ladies, and assume you’re male yourself. Does the cape work well with the ladies? How about prospects?
AspenSnowFall #124,
Guerrillas in the midst? When I saw that I thought it reminded me of watching the Vietnam War on TV as a child, and they talked of “gorilla” warfare. I kept watching the forest for the apes and never saw a single one, but I kept looking!
This is a “necessary measure in a commercial dispute”. That sounds like common sense, because wasn’t it the Orrin and Co. “illegal pyramid” lawsuit that started the mud slinging match back in August? Kinda reminds me of the personality disorder that a person will think that their significant other is cheating on them, only because they are cheating on the sig. other, and then when the cards are down the sig. other is the faithful one.
This is not attack on free speech as the corp. so bluntly put it. Commercial dispute still sounds like enforcing an existing court order, and has NOTHING to do with free speech.
The Internet can hide a face, but not if the messenger is under a court order to not disparage the other party. I say this because of what has been said and what may be said in the future.
AEM #125,
You said “Everything legal aside….”, that was very hilarious. This is a legal battle, started quite stupidly by Orrin and Co.
I believe the corp’s lack of action after the 1983 “Directly Speaking” tapes were made harmed their own reputation more than any site listed in the complaint. The writing on their corporate blog is very smart, edgy and provocitive, especially that guy “Tex”, and at times painfully honest. One day they post “Just go, Team” the next they send me a e-mail saying that Team was planning on creating a competing business, breaking the rules of conduct as well as the law and anybody associated with Team may have been taught to do the same. All of which has turned out to be true. So after telling the truth about people I despise very much and trying to make it sound like staying with Team practices is a rules violation, because it is, they send me more e-mails talking about how they are committed to their IBO’s and look forward to a great future. Alticor, what you do is in line with what you say. Take that literally, it makes sense literally.
Anybody else get the feeling that Alticor is interested in having North American IBO’s much longer into the future? Me too.
October 14th, 2007 at 2:45 pm
Tex #57 - Pal, you are so clueless, it’s hilarious. You claimed that my Point #1 was “WRONG, if the information was supported or suggested by Orrin and Co.” You know, I’d be inclined to agree with you, *IF* any of the information violated any court order. But, as I said, it’s obvious that none of the information violates any court order.
There were three court orders that Q won. They: 1) Upheld Q’s non-compete and non-solicitation clauses; 2) Required IBOAI information to be kept confidential; and 3) Upheld Q’s assertion that Team BSMs were putting IBOs at legal and regulatory risk (which is BS).
So, before you fire off one of your half-cocked replies, Tex, first do me one favor: stop and think, and show me any material posted on any of these sites that violate any court order. Then I will gladly agree with you that Q has the right to discover who posted the material. However, if no material violates any court order, then Q does not have this right. They are is simply throwing an immature, childish temper tantrum.
pvbvguy #60 - I don’t think calling Q an illegal pyramid is such a stretch. Moving products doesn’t make you legal, if most of those sales are from internal consumption. And, since Q itself admitted that 96.6% of product sales were from internal consumption (and likely a large part of the remaining 3.4% were bogus self-reported customer sales), Orrin & Chris were concerned that it was Q itself that was putting IBOs at legal and regulatory risk.
October 14th, 2007 at 2:57 pm
Tex,
Yo post. . “One day they post “Just go, Team” the next they send me a e-mail saying that Team was planning on creating a competing business, breaking the rules of conduct as well as the law and anybody associated with Team may have been taught to do the same. All of which has turned out to be true.”
What laws did they break?
What rules of conduct did they break?
Where is this competing busines?
Tex posts about 1 of every 5 comments. Even through he has been corrected on many different issues many times by many different people he continues on and on with the same non-sensical blathering. The way he posts and the way the Corporate blog is written is very similar. I’m pretty sure Tex works for Alticor.
October 14th, 2007 at 3:03 pm
Tex #126
Obviously, you need to read the lawsuit. If you have already, read it AGAIN. Alticor’s press release said the ONLY reason they filed this suit was because they believe those who have posted these blogs are those that they were able to get a temporary restraining order against that prevents them from disparaging the corporation. However, there is NOTHING in the lawsuit that states anything like that. The lawsuit only states over and over that the bloggers are saying things the corporation does not like, so the corporation wants to find out who they are. To me, that makes it a witch hunt. The reason Alticor has stated they have filed the lawsuit is no where to be found in the actual lawsuit. No matter what the corporation says, they are completely disregarding Free Speech and the First Amendment.
October 14th, 2007 at 3:05 pm
I have been reading these blogs for a while (since August) and as I hav said before. It is like listening to a bunch of grade school kids in a playground fight. Name calling, insults, critisizing people for misspelling (fat fingering) a word or two.
I personally don’t understand why so many TEAM (former) IBO’s still feel the need to be on here griping and complaining. Yes, I understand they are upset. But if they are done with Q/A and have no intention of staying on as a Q/A IBO, why do they keep posting on here except to keep stiring the pot. It does not help their cause, solve any of their problems, or anything else.
My personal opinion is that if everyone here that is still a Q/A IBO and intends to stay an IBO with Q/A into the future would just ignore their posts, don’t answer their charges/jabs or anything else; and only comment back and forth with concerned IBO’s, they might just get the point that we are tired of listening to all this and if they lose their ‘voice’ on these blogs, they might just stop posting. There are many other sites they can go to if they want to post negative comments. We as current/continuing IBO’s need to keep this place clean and business like.
This is just my opinion and I have no desire to make anyone mad. I just want to see all this bickering stop. And just for the record, should anyone ‘claim’ that I work for the company; my regular ‘job’ is in a hardware store, and I am a partially disabled Vietnam Vet.
God Bless all here!!!
October 14th, 2007 at 3:13 pm
Dwight,
Thank you very much for your service in Vietnam.
October 14th, 2007 at 3:19 pm
Thank you AEM,
Was an honor to serve!!
October 14th, 2007 at 3:57 pm
Tex #128 My cape works very well with the ladies. My prospects like my informative presentation and my no nonsense approach. Take care Tex, another prospect awaits.
October 14th, 2007 at 4:36 pm
TMR #105 - So, just because some TEAM members are no longer interested in being part of A/Q/A, does that mean they no longer have the right to express their opinions here? You claim to “look to this blog for information on this business and what is happening within our business community,” and that TEAM members should move on. But, have you seen what the main articles are that are posted by A/Q/A? Is it information that you can use to build your business, or is it in regard to the current situation with TEAM?
freedom #108
If your #1 is true, don’t you think they would only pursue the few websites where they found incriminating material? I think so.
Your #2 sounds feasible, but Q is not just going for PR - they’re claiming court orders were violated, which is simply not true.
I think your #3 is most likely. But, they are just fishing there, because none of the posted material violates any court order. Does any of the posted material violate the non-compete? The non-solicitation? IBOIA confidentiality? BSM rules? I don’t think so.
Dwight Spaulding #132 - Read my comments to TMR above, as they apply to your thoughts, too. If anyone is stirring the pot, it’s Q.
I agree with you, though, in that I too would like to see this stop. But, it’s Q that keeps dragging things out. If they would stop posting articles regarding TEAM, then perhaps TEAM members wouldn’t feel the need to defend themselves.
Thanks, and God bless you, too.
October 14th, 2007 at 4:40 pm
Qui male agit odit lucem. (”He who does evil despises the light.”)
October 14th, 2007 at 4:59 pm
Hey Quixtar,
I accept your offer to pay my fee: “we will even offer to reimburse their costs.”
Instead of billing my new clients, I will bill you.
Again, I accept your offer.
See you in court.
October 14th, 2007 at 5:05 pm
Fred #127,
I would rather see a court case as well, because the tool scam could be revealed for all to see. However, I also understand why Q wants arbitration, like any other large corporation prefers.
Captain #129,
You’re not my pal. Wrong, there was also a court order that directed Orrin and Co. not to disparage Q.
Here’s the lawsuit, loser: http://media.alticorblogs.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/quixtar-v-woodward-et-al-prelim-inj-final.pdf Check out page 5. I’ll wait for your apology, but won’t hold my breath. Try to keep up next time, and do some reading and ask questions before you make a fool out of yourself again. Or not.
“I don’t think calling Q an illegal pyramid is such a stretch. Moving products doesn’t make you legal, if most of those sales are from internal consumption.” —- There you go again, thinking, or trying to think. Where is the limit in the law that dictates how much volume has to be external for it to be legal? And who taught how to report bogus self-reported customer sales? I know who taught me how to fake out the computer, my lying cowardly upline, not Q. It was Orrin and Chris that was probably teaching the same thing, by the tone of what I saw at the Opens and a Seminar.
Captain, it sounds like your lack of information should get you demoted to a Lieutenant, if that.
October 14th, 2007 at 5:14 pm
If the Corporation is so interested in knowing who people are and “fighting in the open”, then why don’t they let us know who are the employees or agents of Quixtar/Amway/Alticor who are running friendly-to-Amway blogs and are spreading negatives about TEAM.
October 14th, 2007 at 5:23 pm
AEM #130,
What laws did they break? —- They didn’t go into arbitration, so they broke contract law.
What rules of conduct did they break? —- I saw them break several, and have already described what I saw and heard.
Where is this competing busines? —- Q could reasonably assume a competing business because they wanted to reduce the 6 month rule. They may have mentioned something during the meetings, I wasn’ there.
Where have you corrected me? I’ve been doing most of the correcting, not the others. You TEAM people don’t like facts, which doesn’t surprise me, brown nosing the lying and cowardly Orrin and his fellow Orrinites. You like facts as much as Dracula likes the light. I’m pretty sure I don’t work for Alticor.
Lajinito #131,
Read my response to The Blogger Formerly Known As Captain, above. Apology accepted.
Dwight #132,
It’s called free speech, part of what you fought for in Vietnam. Folks are also free to make fools of themselves, as The Blogger Formerly Known As Captain did, above. This happens even more when they got emotional and bent out of shape, so the bickering has a purpose. It exposes idiots.
October 14th, 2007 at 5:33 pm
The Blogger Formerly Known As Captain #137,
And the ones who most want to stay out of the light are the lying cowardly “kingpin”, which is defined by those who are tool scam profiteers.
DanO322 #138,
I think you misunderstand the limited scope of the offer. It is extended only to those who operate the anti-Quixtar sites that turn out NOT be be directed and/or funded by Orrin and Co.
MinuteMan #140,
You have to have:
1. A reputation to protect, and
2. A court order that directs others to not damage that reputation.
Q has both. Orrin has neither.
October 14th, 2007 at 5:35 pm
Tex,
Posted like a true Alticor employee.
And if your not then go post on a blog discussing something you know about. You posted in 139 ” It was Orrin and Chris that was probably teaching the same thing, by the tone of what I saw at the Opens and a Seminar”.
So you might have gone to a few Opens and maybe 1 seminar. So you basically have no idea of how Team operates. There’s people on here that do, and they’ve tried to help you understand how Team does operate. Please realize you trying to comment on a topic you hardly understand, so when someone who does understand it says something different than what you are saying, take that as a correction.
October 14th, 2007 at 5:44 pm
Tex,
Nothing against free speech. But when the same people, say the same thing 50 times, they will keep saying it if you keep responding to it.
Don’t respond to the junk talk and only respond to the important stuff, and a lot of the junk stuff will stop.
I think it is time for Q/A to say that this junk talk has run its course and stop posting the junk stuff.
If there is something new/important on this TEAM subject, post it less any commentary (negative or positive) and let it be done.
As Joe Friday (Dragnet) used to say “just the facts”.
I also think they should do their best to keep all this negative posting from carrying over to ‘OZ’. Those should definitely be kept to business building discussions.
October 14th, 2007 at 6:53 pm
#139 Tex - “Where is the limit in the law that dictates how much volume has to be external for it to be legal?”
Hey, buddy! Get with the program! Have you even read the California case?!
Directly from the FTC at http://www.ftc.gov/speeches/other/dvimf16.shtm
“Some schemes may purport to sell a product, but they often simply use the product to hide their pyramid structure. There are two tell-tale signs that a product is simply being used to disguise a pyramid scheme: inventory loading and a lack of retail sales. […] A lack of retail sales is also a red flag that a pyramid exists. Many pyramid schemes will claim that their product is selling like hot cakes. However, on closer examination, the sales occur only between people inside the pyramid structure or to new recruits joining the structure, not to consumers out in the general public.
“[Regarding In re. Amway Corp., 1979] Amway had three different policies to encourage distributors to actually sell the company’s soaps, cleaners, and household products to real end users. First, Amway required distributors to buy back any unused and marketable products from their recruits upon request. Second, Amway required each distributor to sell at wholesale or retail at least 70 percent of its purchased inventory each month — a policy known as the 70% rule. Finally, Amway required each sponsoring distributor to make at least one retail sale to each of 10 different customers each month, known as the 10 customer rule.
“The Commission found that these three policies prevented distributors from buying or forcing others to buy unneeded inventory just to earn bonuses. The court also noted that these policies are an effective safeguard only if they are actually enforced.
“This is the definition of illegal pyramiding that our agency and the federal courts continue to rely on.”
October 14th, 2007 at 7:06 pm
AEM #143,
Posted like a true Orrinite.
And if you’re not then go post on a blog discussing something you know about, like how to look stupid while blogging. So you tell me hotshot, did your upline tell you didn’t have to do any retail, then report that you had retail volume? Or did they say to just pass all that bonus money upline? TEAM’s whole lawsuit was based on the inability to retail. Fill us in, AEM, tell us the truth about what TEAM taught. I think I know the truth, but you go ahead and try to squirm out of this trap you set for yourself. Go ahead and give me your “correction”, AEM. I’m waiting.
Dwight #144,
That is unfortunately how blogging works, those posting their garbage have to be beaten down, or they will keep “piling on”, then the new reader doesn’t see what the truth is, as they typically don’t go back into the thread to find what the facts indicate is true.
It won’t “just stop”, I’ve seen it over and over again on other blogs I have been “banned” from. It’s the same garbage over and over again.
I agree it is time for Q/A to say that this junk talk has run its course and stop posting the junk stuff, but this takes much more effort, and Q will be accused of playing favorites if they didn’t post most of the input as is.
I would prefer the whole TEAM issue go away, because the rest of the lying cowardly “kingpins” run their tool scam operations almost identical to Orrin. TEAM has served its purpose, to point out even more evidence the tool scam is alive and well.
OZ is much tighter on their control of the posts, but are often slow to post comments, too tight and don’t allow a spade to be called a spade at times.
October 14th, 2007 at 7:38 pm
Sorry Tex, I placed the link
http://www.localareawatch.org/2005/08/welcome_street_.html
at the end of my blog, and not in the middle. Thought you would know to keep reading til the end.
October 14th, 2007 at 7:45 pm
The Blogger Formerly Known As Captain #145,
You’re not my buddy.
Nice bloviating, but you didn’t answer the questions. What is the magical percentage, who was teaching retailing was not necessary, and instructing their IBO’s how to fake out the computer, which allowed their downline to be paid anyway? The real “beauty” of single leg
stacking is the IBO’s don’t get paid for downline bonus volume anyway, but as soon as they get that second leg started, the cheating is even more significant, because of the higher volume involved.
Do you know who is responsible the retail rule is being complied with? That’s right, the lying cowardly “kingpin” Platinums, who TEAM folks on this blog have stated make more from the tool scam than Quixtar. So we KNOW where their loyalties lie, with TEAM, not Quixtar. How can you then be surprised TEAM was terminated and the letters went out to the other TEAM Platinums?
I have never denied there is a lack of retailing, but the tool scam is the root cause of this problem (and many others), as proven above. Keep digging your hole deeper, I’ll keep throwing the dirt on top. No problem.
October 14th, 2007 at 8:43 pm
LisBette #147,
Are you serious?
That series of articles is obviously written by a media source even less reliable than the mainstream media.
It is long on allegations and short on facts.
If there was any credibility to the allegations being made, the mainstream media would be all over it.
You Orrinites probably believe what you WANT to believe, whether it has credibility or not. The web site you provided obviously is not credible. Incredible, but not credible.
October 14th, 2007 at 9:33 pm
LisBette #147,
Have you checked out the information on the same site that identifies the tool scam as the major issue? There is plenty of evidence those allegations are accurate, unlike the FTC story you tried to use. Sure is fun to use your source as added evidence of the tool scam. Thanks.
October 14th, 2007 at 9:36 pm
Moderator,
I previously posting a link to the lawsuit against the 30 bloggers. It was approved but now it is gone from the comments. May I ask why you are so afraid of people reading the actual lawsuit? Is it because you are afraid that they will realize that it is baseless?
October 14th, 2007 at 9:41 pm
Lajinito #151: It’s because we’ve had a link to the lawsuit from the top of our post since the minute we posted on Friday. We post numerous legal documents related to this issue, in fact, and prefer our own links since we can verify their accuracy.
October 14th, 2007 at 9:49 pm
This is disgusting. I can’t believe a company I’ve admired and fought for in the living rooms for 15 years chooses now to fight someone who could have been a strong ally. Someone who fixed your pyramid scheme and finally was going to make it legal… make this business main stream.
Where were you BEFORE when Schwartz was attacking? I would show “the plan” at 8:00pm at night; someone would get excited and ready to join the business and by 8:00am in the morning my prospect was completely blown away by the garbage Alticor could have removed. Their dreams busted, my reputation shot.
The realization that it wasn’t the negative on the internet that was the problem; it was that I was defending a tyrant, a bully, and a greedy family. The problem was that what was being said on the Internet was true. How could I have been so naive?
My motives were pure, my cause was just, but it was all a lie. We were never Independent Business owners. We were property. NEVER AGAIN.
You won’t suppress this movement. No matter how many threats you throw at us. My new cause is to tell everyone I know, how you treated those who stood up for you.
October 14th, 2007 at 11:01 pm
Mary Ann: Sounds like you did get an answer to your question, then, from another source. Care to engage on another topic?
October 14th, 2007 at 11:02 pm
Kris M. #153,
Is Orrin the one you are referring to as “could have been a strong ally”? His tool scam made the situation worse, not better. Now we need to get rid of the rest of the lying cowardly “kingpins” as well.
They took care of Schwartz, but only when they determined he was a paid hack for P&G during their lawsuit with P&G, as they can’t do much against private citizens saying what Schwartz was saying. You can thank your upline and their tool scam for the negative facts online.
I believe the corp. should have followed through on the “Directly Speaking” tapes in 1983. In the beginning, I believe the “kingpins” threatened to boycott Amway, so they didn’t have a very good alternative than to knuckle under. However, in recent years, the growth of the international market has allowed A/Q to take stronger action, and the rise of the internet noise (true and untrue, the prospects don’t know the difference) demanded action be taken. Action wasn’t taken until the UK DTI stepped in and threatened to shut down everything in the UK.
You (and millions of others, including me) weren’t just naive, we were being lied to, by both the corp. and especially our lying cowardly “kingpin” uplines.
It isn’t ALL a lie, but much of it is. You are still independent, as long as you follow the rules. Nobody is totally “independent”, you would be naive to believe that. You are not property, you shouldn’t accept anyone who says you are. The Q attorney said that as a figure of speech in the court room recently, it is not a literal fact. Get a grip.
I hope you’re not an Orrinite, because TEAM didn’t stand up for Q, they standed up for their own tool scam.
October 14th, 2007 at 11:22 pm
Last sentence in previous message should have stated “I hope you’re not an Orrinite, because TEAM didn’t stand up for Q, they stood up for their own tool scam.” Now, back to regularly scheduled programming.
It appears the “guerrillas in the midst” (or gorillas, whichever you prefer), have some continuing self destructive conversations going on. The below post was found on the freetheibo blog, the one I have been “banned” from. Looks like there is trouble on the TEAM side of river city. Why should we be surprised those taught by liars and cowards would now have these kinds of issues?
“can anyone answer? = How will the team keep us “in place” as we were before? I find it unfair that we were all told to “stay the course” and “business as usual”, and everyone else was resigning from Q. If everyone has to wait for their 6-months to expire, then some of those who may have resigned later will fall lower than they were on the tap before. It will be frustrating to find that some of my downline ends up as my upline (and believe me, I will find out!)”
October 14th, 2007 at 11:32 pm
I am really confused. Does this sound like a solid business opportunity?
The new Quixtar/Amway brochure says:
“Your life. Your business. Your way.” When you register with Quixtar/Amway, you become an Independent Business Owner (IBO). You don’t work for Quixtar/Amway. You don’t work for the person who sponsored you into the business. You work for yourself. You build your business your way. Sounds great!
If that is true, then:
• Why am I being ripped off by my business partners, up-line and training systems not managed by Quixtar/Amway? The tool system I buy from is still considered approved by Quixtar/Amway and is more expensive than TEAM tools.
• Why is the company ripping me off with inconsistent product pricing? And now Quixtar/Amway wants to sell training tools too.
• Why is my IBO business and LOS considered Quixtar/Amway proprietary property by the corporate lawyers in the lawsuits if I am truly an Independent Business Owner? So they now own all of the relationships with my family and friends who are IBOs?
• If I quit, could I get sued if I “solicited” my son, daughter, mother, father, aunt, uncle, best friend, etc. who are IBOs?
• What are the Quixtar/Amway lawyers trying to “protect” me from anyway? They work for Quixtar/Amway and I do not. I am independent according to the new brochure.
• Why was I not notified by mail when Quixtar/Amway changed the terms of my IBO agreement? My credit card and insurance changes require a mailed written notification. They say they notified me by a magazine? Was the contract that many pages?
• If I stay, would I get terminated by Quixtar/Amway if I violated a contract change I knew nothing about, or if I did something Quixtar/Amway just did not like?
• Why is Quixtar/Amway trying to silence those who are speaking out against them with lawsuits?
This does not sound like Burger King “your way.” I guess I need to close my eyes and keep drinking the corporate Cool Aid, or Active8. Then this is a great business opportunity!
October 14th, 2007 at 11:34 pm
To all current Quixtar/Amway IBO’s: I am sorry. I am sorry that the corporation didn’t care enough to just let us go as they had said in the topic “Just Go, TEAM”.
I am sorry that this whole thing has hurt your business, but I did not sign up for Amway. I signed up for Quixtar. Your business was my business until the owners fired its so-called Independent Business Owners that it at one time prided and patted the backs of on a job well done.
I am sorry for the media attention in the courts and the local newspapers in Michigan. But now this is national.
When CBSNews.com picked up the story, I saw this as the beginning of some very tough times for Amway (Quixtar). I do not understand why they did it. They had won the case over to arbitration, hopefully a third-party. Our TEAM leadership stated that we would wait out the six-months and work with arbitration.
Someone said that the corporation is run by the lawyers now, and I think that is true. When they decided to pull a RIAA stunt, they grabbed the attention of the mainstream media whom is not very fond of the RIAA tactics. In the future, probably sooner, is not going to be possible to search on Quixtar or Amway without articles referencing this whole situation.
And Tex, respectfully, if you represent the leadership and business opportunity that is the new Amway as you currently are, you are only hurting more. I understand that you want to defend your business and other IBO’s, but your not. It can be done with more professionalism than you have displayed thus far.
I wish all of you sticking to your business the best of luck. If the product prices come down, you may have a chance. This is the 21st century, it is time for Amway to live in it. Be competitive.
Good night, God Bless
October 15th, 2007 at 12:38 am
Corporate Communications:
Fair enough. So I can expect you to censor his ranting on and on about the “tool scam” with TEAM, as those questions of his have been answered over and over also.
October 15th, 2007 at 12:40 am
G-Man #157,
You shouldn’t be confused at all, if you understand the tool scam. Without the tool scam, this is a solid business opportunity.
The new Quixtar/Amway brochure says:
“Your life. Your business. Your way.” When you register with Quixtar/Amway, you become an Independent Business Owner (IBO). You don’t work for Quixtar/Amway. You don’t work for the person who sponsored you into the business. You work for yourself. You build your business your way. Sounds great! —- That’s because it IS great.
• Why am I being ripped off by my business partners, up-line and training systems not managed by Quixtar/Amway? The tool system I buy from is still considered approved by Quixtar/Amway and is more expensive than TEAM tools. —- How much more expensive is it? I would bet it is similar in cost, and similar in tool scam profit.
• Why is the company ripping me off with inconsistent product pricing? And now Quixtar/Amway wants to sell training tools too. —- What training tools are you talking about? The Quixtar University is free.
• Why is my IBO business and LOS considered Quixtar/Amway proprietary property by the corporate lawyers in the lawsuits if I am truly an Independent Business Owner? So they now own all of the relationships with my family and friends who are IBOs? —- They are considered Quixtar’s property to protect YOUR business. They own the rights to your business, not your personal relationships. This discourages someone in your group from running off with part of your business and going elsewhere. They can still do this, but they have to wait 6 months before getting involved in another business, and 2 years prior to contacting a known IBO to get them into their business.
• If I quit, could I get sued if I “solicited” my son, daughter, mother, father, aunt, uncle, best friend, etc. who are IBOs? —- Yes, but these discussions may come up as a natural part of a family discussion, so it would be much harder to prove you solicited them.
• What are the Quixtar/Amway lawyers trying to “protect” me from anyway? They work for Quixtar/Amway and I do not. I am independent according to the new brochure. —- See above. You are independent, but still have rules to follow. Just like any other independent business in this world.
• Why was I not notified by mail when Quixtar/Amway changed the terms of my IBO agreement? My credit card and insurance changes require a mailed written notification. They say they notified me by a magazine? Was the contract that many pages? —- You were notified, the changes were in various corporate magazines and the contract notifies you there are changes from time to time, and it would make sense for a real business owner to review the rules at least annually, as your annual renewal recommends.
• If I stay, would I get terminated by Quixtar/Amway if I violated a contract change I knew nothing about, or if I did something Quixtar/Amway just did not like? —- Chances are very good you would be warned, at least once. This happened to Orrin several times prior to him being terminated, and was even offered to him on Auguest 9th, but he wasn’t interested in even listening to how to correct his actions.
• Why is Quixtar/Amway trying to silence those who are speaking out against them with lawsuits? —- Orrin and his accomplices are under a court order to not disparage the corp., and others, as long as they are not being directed or directly supported by Orrin and Co. can say whatever they please, except if they say things they know or believe are untrue, they could be sued for slander or libel.
October 15th, 2007 at 1:05 am
Jester 311 #158,
They cared enough about the IBO’s staying with Quixtar not to let TEAM go and violate the 6 month rule.
If the name change is that important to you, you should leave. Bub-bye.
They may have patted them on their backs publicly to allow them to save face, but it is obvious Orrin and Co. were in big trouble for several years.
You have nothing to apologize for, this is mostly the lying cowardly “kingpins’” fault for the tool scam, and A/Q’s fault for not following up on the 1983 “Directly Speaking” tapes.
Your TEAM is made up of liars and cowards, as are most of the rest of the LOS/LOA’s. They misled you before, and they are misleading you now.
When the corporation is sued for being an illegal pyramid, it is necessary for the lawyers to get involved. You don’t go into court with lawyers on one side and no lawyers on the other and expect to get a favorable ruling. That would be like me or you running on the field of an NFL game and expecting to survive more than a play or two. run by the lawyers now, and I think that is true. The mainsteam media is interested in one thing, having titillating stories that attract viewers. The RIAA stunt was pulled by IBO’s, and the corp. unfortunately bailed them out.
I represent the truth, and the sooner we face the truth, make the necessary changes, and move forward, the better off A/Q and the IBO’s will be. This is no time to “finesse”, it is time to put the hammer down, fix what is broke, and move on. The tool scam has been finessed since 1983, and it hasn’t worked. You’ve probably heard the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. I agree with that, and it is time to stop finessing and start fixing. There isn’t enough time, especially in our fast moving internet world, to delay what must be done, get rid of the tool scam and move forward with the IBO’s who are grown up enough to accept the return to the Amway name.
October 15th, 2007 at 1:33 am
All of the lawsuits won’t make any difference in several years. In my opinion, Quixtar will be gone and renamed Amway. Those who left will have served their time of 6 months or two years (depending on how you want to spin it). People will still be searching for ways to make some more money to help their situation. The winner will be the organization(s) that can use the power of the internet and focus on helping the new business owner starting reaching their goals as fast as possible. Or at the very least see that the vehicle they have chosen should be able to get them down the road.
Will that organization be Amway or will it be something else? In the dynamics of the information age, no one really knows what new business models will be developed and which ones that currently exists will adapt and change.
I believe the future will be exciting. However after many years with Amway and with Quixtar, I don’t believe the current management philosphy at AQA nor their revised business model will be flexible enough to make the jump. So for those of you who have chosen to remain - best wishes.
October 15th, 2007 at 3:09 am
Tex 141
“AEM #130,
What laws did they break? —- They didn’t go into arbitration, so they broke contract law”.
Tex, they are arbitration now. Maybe I wasn’t clear before, sorry. Q sent me a e-mail saying “The terminations of [Team leadership] will help correct practices that put Quixtar and all IBOs at serious and immediate risk of legal and regulatory action.” My question is What practices?
“What rules of conduct did they break? —- I saw them break several, and have already described what I saw and heard”. Great, what ones? I attended opens and I attend seminars, I don’t see any rule violations. And based on everything else you’ve said about Team you’re judgment is severely impaired.
“Where is this competing busines? —- Q could reasonably assume a competing business because they wanted to reduce the 6 month rule. They may have mentioned something during the meetings, I wasn’ there”. Hang on there, back in post 128 you said it was true. And when I ask you to tell me what it is you talk about Q having reasonable assumptions? How is that an answer? You said it was true, so either say you’re wrong, or tell me about this competing business.
“Where have you corrected me”? Team tool profit, numerous times.
You TEX people don’t know the facts, which doesn’t surprise me, all your ‘facts’ come from your personal feelings about the situation.
146 tex
My upline has always reminded me about doing customer volume. And he has always told me that if I don’t, downline money that would have gone to me goes to him. The main point of recognition on Team requires a 150 pv center. The recommended way to build that is through personal use (90-100pv) and customer volume (50-60).
Tex, you need to know you don’t know on this one ya’know? People who don’t know and think they do are the worst. You are more interested in pushing your own opinions than actually knowing what is going on. It may be because you don’t deal with past hurts very well, but I think it’s paid for.
And 155
Again with this tool scam non-sense. This is not a tool scam issue, there was no tool scam with team, that’s why they break away from Inet. They didn’t want to be part of a tool scam. Repeat - Tex, no tool scam. I know it might make all this more exciting but there is in fact no tool scam. Never was.
October 15th, 2007 at 6:43 am
What another great move by Amway. this time the national news has picked it up and giving the web addresses to the video’s so the whole country is going to go and see what the issues are with the prices. Amway is trying to sabotage the rest of the IBO’s now with this move. There wont be anyone who hasn’t seen the price concerns or what people think about amway. another 20 years befor people can do business in the United states with Amway products.
Good Job Amway!
October 15th, 2007 at 9:44 am
Tex,
You are an IBO? I am so SORRY! You ended up being STUCK with Quixtar/Amway/Scamway/whatever you want to call them at this hour….Yikes..I see so you are trying to defend them…Sucks to be you. Good luck on your IBO endeavor…That spider web model is tough..I tried it in a different company who uses that model…never made any money at it and was running for 5 years trying to make it work..those spider web things are tough..good luck! Ps. I did GO! I am so happy about it…Go Team Go!!!
October 15th, 2007 at 10:08 am
Mary Ann #159,
There is a huge difference between your occupation question and my tool scam explanation. Many more bloggers are interested and impacted by the tool scam, my occupation/profession/job has nothing to do with the issues facing A/Q. Apples and oranges.
MinuteMan #162,
Why does it have to be one or the other, why not both?
AEM #163,
What laws did they break? —- Read the termination letters, the issues are listed.
Great, what ones? I attended opens and I attend seminars, I don’t see any rule violations. And based on everything else you’ve said about Team you’re judgment is severely impaired. —- I already listed what I heard and saw. Apparently you don’t understand the rules, and I wonder if you’ve even read the rules. Have you ever called the rules department to clarify any of the rules? By any upline definition, my judgment trumps Orrin’s, because I have a bigger business than he does. He is the one on the outside looking in, I have PV/BV. He doesn’t.
Hang on there, back in post 128 you said it was true. And when I ask you to tell me what it is you talk about Q having reasonable assumptions? How is that an answer? You said it was true, so either say you’re wrong, or tell me about this competing business. —- Look, I’m not going to “lawyer” the exact wording with you. If Orrin wasn’t interested in another MLM, he wouldn’t have requested to break yet another rule with an “early out” request. You know very well I don’t have details on the next business, or Quixtar would have already been all over that issue, I suspect Orrin is so busy with his lawsuits and lawyers he hasn’t had any time to look at his next “venture”. Another reason the CA lawsuit was a stupid move.
My upline has always reminded me about doing customer volume. And he has always told me that if I don’t, downline money that would have gone to me goes to him. The main point of recognition on Team requires a 150 pv center. The recommended way to build that is through personal use (90-100pv) and customer volume (50-60). —- Okay, that’s what he SAID to do, but Orrin sued Quixtar because that is nearly impossible. What did you ACTUALLY do? Did you upline check that your retail reported volume was to real customers?
Again with this tool scam non-sense. This is not a tool scam issue, there was no tool scam with team, that’s why they break away from Inet. They didn’t want to be part of a tool scam. Repeat - Tex, no tool scam. I know it might make all this more exciting but there is in fact no tool scam. Never was. —- Then why does the contract require secrecy regarding tool profit?
October 15th, 2007 at 10:13 am
jack #164,
All the more reason to squash the entire tool scam like the cockroach running across the floor that it is.
Negative Nancy #165,
Whatever structure you decide to use, the “spider web” (width) or depth, it is much easier without the tool scam. Sorry you aren’t bright enough to pick up on that, but VERY happy you’re gone.
Bub-bye.
October 15th, 2007 at 10:47 am
Tex, are you kidding? The system is my favorite part! If it were just a product based business it would not be as great. Compared to when I did the other company and only focused on their products it sucked. Helping people develop into leaders is amazing. I was so proud the other day to see our friends step up as leaders when they would have never done that before..it is very exciting! Do not forget Hurting People Hurt People. I am so happy I am gone too!!!
October 15th, 2007 at 10:52 am
ps. Tex, that other company I worked with that did the Spider web thing..or width as you call it did not have the “tool scam” or excellent training system that is why so many consultants did not do well…it really is all in the system. I wish that company had put together a system but they never will…
October 15th, 2007 at 11:14 am
Tex #148
“Nice bloviating, but you didn’t answer the questions.” - Wow, dense AND blind!
“What is the magical percentage” - 70%. Was that not clear?
“who was teaching retailing was not necessary” - Experience taught that retailing was near impossible.
“Do you know who is responsible the retail rule is being complied with? That’s right, the lying cowardly “kingpin” Platinums” - According to the FTC, it’s Q’s responsibility to ensure that the buyback rule, the 70% rule and the 10 customer rule is enforced. Just because Q’s rules passes that responsibility to Platinums, that does not release them from their obligation as far as the FTC is concerned.
“I have never denied there is a lack of retailing, but the tool scam is the root cause of this problem” - Wow, there is something we can agree on - there is a lack of retailing.
OK, so now I’m going to put my sarcastic side on the back burner, ask you a serious question, and respectfully request a serious reply. How do you see the tools as being responsible for this lack of retail sales?
October 15th, 2007 at 11:25 am
I just did a post about this on my blog.
I have been writing about Quixtar, Amway and MLM for nearly 4 years and thought that you might find it interesting that Alticor has never sent me a letter or contacted me about any of the opinions that I share on my blog site (and I share a lot of them).
The company did send me a letter once about some copyright issues with some a picture that I posted, so I tool down the picture.
While Alticor and I disagree on a lot of things, they seem to respect my right to disagree with them.
October 15th, 2007 at 12:04 pm
A smile for everyone… whether you are a Quixtar IBO, TEAM supporter, paid blogger (you know who you are), or just a visitor wondering why this is such a mess…
It’s a wonderful day and we are obviously all breathing, so let’s make the best of it!
[DISCLAIMER: This blog entry is in no way designed to be defamatory to the Alticor/Amway/Quixtar businesses, IBO’s, TEAM supporters, Blackwater USA, WalMart, KMart, Sears, Cosco, McDonalds, or The United States Federal Government. Also, no animals or trees were destroyed from the typing of this blog.]
SMILE! IT’S CONTAGIOUS!!!
October 15th, 2007 at 12:06 pm
tex 166
“Read the termination letters, the issues are listed”. - I wasn’t asking what issue’s they broke, but what laws they broke. Keep dancing on that one buddy.
“I already listed what I heard and saw. Apparently you don’t understand the rules, and I wonder if you’ve even read the rules. Have you ever called the rules department to clarify any of the rules? By any upline definition, my judgment trumps Orrin’s, because I have a bigger business than he does. He is the one on the outside looking in, I have PV/BV. He doesn’t”. - Again, keep dancing, or cite rule violations. Right now Orrin doesn’t have a Quixtar business, so saying your’s is bigger is redundent. And if you mean before his termination, how did you get a bigger business, I thought you were waiting till “they fixed the tool scam.”
“Okay, that’s what he SAID to do, but Orrin sued Quixtar because that is nearly impossible. What did you ACTUALLY do? Did you upline check that your retail reported volume was to real customers”? - Mu upline never checked, you asked what was taught, and I told you what was taught. And what I actually did was get customers, and a lot of sampling.
“Then why does the contract require secrecy regarding tool profit”? - Yeah that contract, I noticed everything else included in that same exhibit had revisions dates on it except for that one contract with the clause you reference. That probably means what you were looking at was the first copy drafted with the help of Quixtar, not the revised copy. If there is some secrecy clause about tool profit why would Orrin talk about it on audio’s and why would Chris talk about it? and why would my upline platium sit down and show me all the numbers up to 6@100? And why have a diagram on the Team site showing how all system profit is set aside and paid back out? This does not sound like the acts of people trying to keep secrets.
One more time, many lawsuits having to do with big A/Q IBO’s do have to do with tool profits. But not this one. The “secrecy clause” is totally beside the point. This issue is about Q’s pricing strategy and the legal risk that may have created. That is the main issue, the product scam.
What do you do for a living Tex?
Do you work for Alticor? you really act like you do.
October 15th, 2007 at 12:19 pm
Negative Nancy #168/9,
No, I’m not kidding.
I have no issue with the system, I have an issue with the system SCAM. We like the system too, I have purchased well over 12,000 tapes and CD’s and hundreds of books for pennies on the dollar, to support our group. However, we don’t sell these, we lend them out for those who deposit $20, and if the tools are returned, they get others. If they are not returned, I keep the deposit and buy replacement tools. If they want to quit and bring their loaned tools back, they get their #20 back.
We decided not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, you don’t seem to know the difference.
But this wouldn’t matter to you, becaused you are already GONE.
We DID what you wanted OTHERS to do for you.
The Blogger Formerly Known As Captain #170,
“What is the magical percentage” - 70%. Was that not clear? —- Wow, dense AND blind! You clearly don’t understand the difference between the 10 customer/50PV/$100 retail rule, and the 70% inventory rule. Try again.
Experience taught that retailing was near impossible. —- And what pin level was “experience”?
According to the FTC, it’s Q’s responsibility to ensure that the buyback rule, the 70% rule and the 10 customer rule is enforced. Just because Q’s rules passes that responsibility to Platinums, that does not release them from their obligation as far as the FTC is concerned. —- I agree, they are both responsible and are both failing to enforce the rule. I told the rules department I was trained by my upline how to fake out the computer, and they didn’t raise an eyebrow. But the upline are not enforcing this either, and THEY put themselves in front of us and said to ignore the corp. and the rules, that they (the upline) would teach us what we needed to know.
Wow, there is something we can agree on - there is a lack of retailing. —- Yes, and the bulk of the fault for lack of retail lies with the upline.
OK, so now I’m going to put my sarcastic side on the back burner, ask you a serious question, and respectfully request a serious reply. How do you see the tools as being responsible for this lack of retail sales? —- It’s easy. The “kingpins” aren’t really concerned about the lack of retail sales, because they get most of their money from the tools. Plus, there are only so many hours in a day, so something has to suffer, and retailing is very time consuming. Since the upline makes much more money from tools, and customers don’t buy tools, retail was ignored. The corp. got lazy with their pricing, because the IBOAI, the same “kingpins” who are making the really big bucks on the tool scam, indicated everything was okay, so the corp. listened to them instead of the typical IBO, who is getting screwed by both the tool scam and high product prices. As the internet noise and pressure has grown, and particularly since the UK DTI actions became known, both sides are pointing their fingers at the other. Both are at fault, but the “kingpins” to a much larger degree. The corp should have followed through and shut down the tool scam in 1983 when Rich made the “Directly Speaking” tapes, and the problem has grown and festered ever since.
October 15th, 2007 at 1:09 pm
Ty Tribble -#171
The company does not contact you about your opinions because they are not afraid of you. You have no influence. opinions without influence don’t matter. You might make $. But you have no influence. Amway will only attack someone who is a serious threat. Hope that helps with your question.
October 15th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
Tex,
Blah, blah, blah, blah….Get a life! You just speak junk all the time! You never have anything value added to the blog. I don’t know if you’re in Quixtar, if you are there is no way your business is growing, the timing of your post prove you do nothing but post. Tool scam, tool scam, tool scam what’s the scam? If you choose, you purchase tools. If you don’t want to don’t. It is a fact that people utilizing motivational training systems grow faster and bigger businesses. There is no scam! The only scam is Quixtar! They prove it even more with this ridiculous witch hunt! Apparently, the mighty Amway, doesn’t like people saying bad things about their precious J-factor scam!
October 15th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
Hey Tex:
Where’d you learn your “deabting” tactics? The Peewee Herman Show? “I know you are, but what am I?
Man, you got a BIG chip on your shoulder. What the hell happened to you?
October 15th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
Tex #160, How do you know if/when Orrin was warned about anything? As you’ve asked before, were you there? You just responded to someone’s legit question as though you know. You couldn’t possibly know what Orrin (Team) and Q talked about or when.
(sarcasm) Any reasonable person can assume that by the number of meetings you probably attended, they represent mainstream TEAM meetings I’m sure.
I’ve never had anything misrepresented to me. And our leadership that was supposedly on thin ice, but wierd, letting us attend and use TEAM meetings and materials starting only July 1st. of this year. Perhaps Q should have mentioned that maybe they were going to terminate the group we were joining. What an immeasurable waist of time.
My sarcasm above was tongue in cheek. Why do all of your (Tex) replies have to be so angry. Are you really that excited about people’s dreams being destroyed? The very people that were all on the same side Aug 8th? We were all trying to build the same business then you know. And everyone I know, with good intentions too.
I’ve been in many many living rooms and coffee shops defending this corp, that has now hung me out to dry. It’s all crazy.
What next? (I’m sure you may insert some smart alec reply here.)
October 15th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
amazed #172,
I don’t wonder why this is such a mess. It’s obvious, the lying cowardly “kingpins” have been exposed for what they did (the tool scam) and the corp has been exposed for what they didn’t do (shut down the tool scam) for the past quarter of a century or so.
AEM #173,
I wasn’t asking what issue’s they broke, but what laws they broke. Keep dancing on that one buddy. —- The law they broke was contract law, they didn’t follow their contract with Q.
Again, keep dancing, or cite rule violations. —- You read the termination letter and read the rules. It will do you good. I’m not going ot explain it yet again, I’ve done that several times on this blog already.
Mu upline never checked, you asked what was taught, and I told you what was taught. And what I actually did was get customers, and a lot of sampling. —- As I suspected, your upline talked the talk, but didn’t walk the walk, when it came to retail. Did you meet the minimum rules for getting your downline bonus? Sampling doesn’t count, by the way. They have to be paying customers. I’ve asked that question.
Yeah that contract, I noticed everything else included in that same exhibit had revisions dates on it except for that one contract with the clause you reference. That probably means what you were looking at was the first copy drafted with the help of Quixtar, not the revised copy. If there is some secrecy clause about tool profit why would Orrin talk about it on audio’s and why would Chris talk about it? —- Why wouldn’t they talk about it? They didn’t follow other rules, either.
And why would my upline platium sit down and show me all the numbers up to 6@100? And why have a diagram on the Team site showing how all system profit is set aside and paid back out? This does not sound like the acts of people trying to keep secrets. —- I never saw the web site showing the numbers, when was it taken down?
One more time, many lawsuits having to do with big A/Q IBO’s do have to do with tool profits. But not this one. —- Sure it does, you just aren’t on the inside discussions that neither side is particularly fond of talking about openly.
The “secrecy clause” is totally the point. Without secrecy, no tool scam, and Tex is happy.
This issue is about Q’s pricing strategy and the legal risk that may have created. That is the main issue, the product scam. —- The product pricing is in the open, not the tools. It’s hard to have a transparent scam. The “kinpins” are responsible for the product prices being too high as well, as they preach 100% loyalty and don’t care what the prices are, as long as they can move tools, where their big bucks are made.
What do you do for a living Tex? —- I could tell you, but I would have to kill you afterwards.
Do you work for Alticor? you really act like you do. —- No, why do you think I act like I do work for them, I have criticized Alticor as well as the lying cowardly “kingpins”.
October 15th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
Common Sense #175,
The corp doesn’t go after him because they have no basis for doing so, regardless of whether he has influence or not. They don’t have a court order for him or his site. Get a new name, please.
Brad #176,
The story of their violations were listed in their termination letters, and Orrin’s lawyer hasn’t pushed back one bit. I don’t need more than that.
Q didn’t know Orrin was going to refuse to fix his problems, which led to the terminations.
My replies reflect the fact that literally millions of former and current Distributors/IBO’s, over a period of about 35 years, have been systematically ripped off of hundreds of millions to billions of dollars. THAT is why I come across as angry, it’s called righteous indignation.
Your upline left you hung out to dry.
Who knows what’s next? Every day is a new adventure. But it isn’t looking good for Orrin and Co., that’s for sure.
October 15th, 2007 at 3:11 pm
Tex #174
“You clearly don’t understand the difference between the 10 customer/50PV/$100 retail rule, and the 70% inventory rule. Try again.”
Tis you that do not understand, sir. The 10 customer/50PV/$100 retail rules are the current Quixtar rules.
The rules the FTC cited were Amway’s rules at the time. To ensure that the bulk of orders were actual retail sales (and not inventory), 70% of product each month had to be to moved and each distributor had to make a sale to at least 10 different customers each month - and Amway had to enforce these rules. These are the rules that the FTC said would spare Amway the “illegal pyramid” label. And, these are the rules the FTC still uses today as the definition of an illegal pyramid, not Quixtar’s current rules.
Quixtar’s current rules are a weakened bastardization of the Amway rules, and Q doesn’t even enforce those. As prices rose, retail sales fell, and internal consumption became the norm, Q/A slipped from being a legitimate MLM to an illegal pyramid.
OK, I can see where you’re coming from regarding how tools sales might cause retail sales to suffer in some organizations. But, there is one thing that I can’t agree with:
“The corp. got lazy with their pricing, because the IBOAI, the same “kingpins” who are making the really big bucks on the tool scam, indicated everything was okay, so the corp. listened to them instead of the typical IBO”
Why should Q “get lazy” with pricing based on what the IBOAI (or IBOs, for that matter) said? It doesn’t matter what the board told them - they don’t need the board to show them how much of their product sales were retail and how much was internal consumption - they have those figures.
No excuse, from my perspective.
October 15th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
Tex,
You’re lost again! Chris Brady and Orrin Woodward did not violate one single rule. When Quixtar decided to change the rules they resisted in defense of the thousands of IBO’s that they represented! If Brady and Woodward had violated any rules they would have been kicked out long ago! There is no way anyone would believe that the sue happy Quixtar would let them break rules and ignore the issue. You state contract law??? Please put down the crack pipe and reread your answer! They asked for the courts decision on whether the contract was legal if the business was illegal. They were terminated, means no contract, and since Quixtar didn’t want them they wanted free! You need to really get a life!!! Your beloved company is now trying to recover $25,000 from 30 innocent IBO’s..who’s next? They sure must be having a hard time feeding that legal machine!
October 15th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
AEM #173,
One more thought on the tool secrecy issue. Both Ron Simmons and Chuck Goetschel stated Q told them not to disclose tool income. So which is it, or does the left hand of TEAM not know what the right hand is doing? These are not minor bystanders, one is the CEO of Legacy and claims to have seen much of what went on August 9th, and the other is the head of a formerly accredited tool system.
October 15th, 2007 at 3:35 pm
Amway realist #176,
Blah, blah, blah, blah….Get a life! You just speak junk all the time! You never have anything value added to the blog. I don’t know if you’re in Quixtar, if you are there is no way your business is growing, the timing of your post prove you do nothing but post. Tool scam, tool scam, tool scam what’s the scam? If you choose, you purchase tools. If you don’t want to don’t, but don’t expect upline to pay any attention to you. It is a fact that people utilizing motivational training systems grow faster and bigger businesses, and it is a fact most drop out, because they are getting scammed. There is a scam! The only scam is the lying cowardly “kingpins! They prove it even more with this ridiculous silence and banning me from the IBOAI and freetheibo blogs. Apparently, the mighty TEAM and IBOAI, doesn’t like people saying bad things about their precious tool scam!
cmon.people.think #177,
Where’d you learn your “deabting” tactics? The Peewee Herman Show? —- Definitely not where you learned to spell. It’s called “debating”.
Man, you got a BIG chip on your shoulder. What the hell happened to you? —- I saw a tool scam, and I’m mad as hell and am not going to let the tool scam continue any more.
October 15th, 2007 at 3:38 pm
If you’re coming after me, I can save you some money. Please contact me via my email address ThomasEvanAnthonyMorris at gmail dot com.
Also, I have posted my response at:
http://crazyfunwildworld.blogspot.com/2007/10/if-youre-coming-after-me.html
October 15th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
My upline left me to dry? How’s that?
Again, your representation of fact, the millions perhaps billions. Where are those facts posted so I may read them myself. You self proclaim representation of these millions of IBO’s? I don’t know any that claim you represent them. Since facts are facts, could you prove one? The one you just stated as fact I’d really like some reference to that one, for my review of course. Since it’s fact you must have piles of reference material you could point us to. Talk about the sky is falling.
You say,…”Q didn’t know Orrin wouldn’t fix….”
Team and the IBOAI didn’t know Q wasn’t going to fix Q’s problems. New and old IBO’s didn’t know the IBOAI is no representation. Which led to piles of resignations.
hehe
hehe
October 15th, 2007 at 4:22 pm
Ty #171,
Thanks for your post. Sorry for what (lack of common sense said). I have to say I personally have never read your blog, so I can only assume that whatever you might say that dissagrees with Quixtar/Amway, you say it in a respectful businesslike tone. As you can tell, a respectful, businesslike tone, is not very evident on this blog site.
I appreciate hearing your comments.
October 15th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
Gosh, it is ashamed that Quixtar and its name is being tarnished in the media and some negative people who have issues with the company. As Amway ironed out their lawsuits in the past, Quixtar will iron out their issues. Many folks are missing the point that the DeVos and Van Andel family has given a business opportunity abd quality products to people who want it. I hope this lawsuit is completely resolved.
IBO
October 15th, 2007 at 5:41 pm
Tex. Who are you, Tex Tribble? Ty’s older brother? Does uncle DeVos know you are blogging on company time from the mail room? Let the Tribbulator fight his own battles! I wasn’t even talking to you cowboy.
October 15th, 2007 at 5:50 pm
Hey Tex..What do think is next?
October 15th, 2007 at 6:42 pm
i am a losser,TEAM please help me quixtar fired me out…………..LOSSER I’AM
October 15th, 2007 at 7:12 pm
Is this supposedly open and free speech. Every other post has some reference to off the blog contacting. What massive conference call are you camping on. Individually we(IBO”s) are resigned to the fact that AmQuixtaCor is just trying to keep what few of them(DBA-Dependent Business Associates)they have left. GO TEX!!!
Howd ya get that name anyhow? I see many clues.
October 15th, 2007 at 7:16 pm
Ah! Oh! I forgot Tex, you may not get this until tomorrow its after business hours.
October 15th, 2007 at 7:22 pm
Corporate Communications:
You censored me again?
October 15th, 2007 at 7:25 pm
THINGS ARE LOOKING GOOD FOR OLE’ ORRIN
Just depends on how you read it.
Love you Tex
Your momma would not be proud
October 15th, 2007 at 8:50 pm
…Ok posted to the wrong posting first. I’m new to this.
This lawsuit has been picked up my hundreds of news feeds. Just a question, how is this helping the reputation of a company that has worked so hard to open its “doors” to its critics?
Take the hard work and openness that www.opportunityzone.com and its bloggers have been doing. This moderator has been undoing all the honesty, sincerity, and professionalism that those employees have been working so hard and for so long. Not just this posting but most of the “it’s our way or the highway” attitude.
The average internet surfer is going to interpret this as a David and Goliath. Regardless of the moderator’s comments on why they filed the lawsuit. The only conclusion for the average person is that Amway is the aggressor and is wrong. Sometimes you have to let a laying dog lie. Whoever proceeded with this lawsuit doesn’t understand the power of the internet. I’m sad to say that Amway will come out as the loser when it comes to popular opinion and further damage its reputation.
Once again all the efforts that have exerted have gone by the way side. Wait for the negative feedback on the web. Time will tell if I am correct. You decide…
October 15th, 2007 at 9:18 pm
I have been reading the articles about what Quixtar has been doing and while I have had the highest regard for the Amway Corporation for as long as I can remember from a small child because a number of my family has been associated with it throughout the years. This regard was struck a fairly big blow over the last few months caused the the actions and tactics that the corporation has been using. These last few weeks have apparently made a bigger monster out of the one that was being created already. Now my feelings on the subject are: 1. I have never seen a lower form of attack, disparagement and false blame that what the corporation has shown. 2. I would NEVER have believed that I would (much less could) EVER make this statement.
Based on MY OWN (no one else has told me what decisions to make) decisions reached by watching the recent actions of the quixtar corporation it has been absolutely been made clear of what is going on. No one, regardless of which side they are for, can deny this absolute truth with any degree of honesty and truthfulness. I will NEVER call this company by the name of amway ever again because of it.
There should be a ban put on the corporation denying them any “right” to use the name of amway because this name was created out of the words “American Way” and this corporation has become a total and absolute antithesis of the American Way and of Freedom. This corporation has has sold its soul, integrity and its belief in Freedom to their god of “make money no matter how many of our distributor property we have to destroy and attempt to ruin the lives of. Alticor ever one can say good things about you or bad things about you but the truth is NOT relative and will not change no matter what and how many times you want to deny everything. The way that you are going will guarantee that the alticor company and everyone that stays associated with it will live in the history books in TOTAL INFAMY. Deny it if you want, it will NOT change that. Prayerfully, you will see the true and honest way before the books are written!
October 15th, 2007 at 9:28 pm
Give me a break. Filing suit against bloggers? That is what I call grasping for straws. What a joke. I don’t understand why am/quix doesn’t just duplicate what has already been done in the UK. Lower prices. opportunity for IBO’s to continue with new contract or leave. It sounds a lot like what TEAM is asking for. First, lower prices. Second, an opportunity to leave. But now the damage is done. Nobody wins. Quixtar is out a bunch of IBO’s and volume. A bunch of IBO’s are now waiting for the 6 month rule to play out hoping to find a better opportunity. “Cater to the wealthy and live with masses or cater to the masses and live with wealthy.” You do the math. Resignation getting faxed to Quixtar tomorrow morning.
October 15th, 2007 at 11:22 pm
Tex # 180
My replies reflect the fact that literally millions of former and current Distributors/IBO’s, over a period of about 35 years, have been systematically ripped off of hundreds of millions to billions of dollars. THAT is why I come across as angry, it’s called righteous indignation.
Tex, finally an true statement. You just forgot to complete the sentence.
literally millions of former and current Distributors/IBO’s, over a period of about 35 years, have been systematically ripped off of hundreds of millions to billions of dollars by Quixtar/Amway.
October 16th, 2007 at 12:35 am
sshhh! you’ll wake tex up
October 16th, 2007 at 1:47 am
New Lawsuit…?
http://www.woodtv.com/global/story.asp?s=7215384
“Lawyers for Quixtar claim the breakaway IBOs have convinced over 7,000 distributors to leave the flock since August.”
Anyone have a copy of this suit/filing?
October 16th, 2007 at 2:27 am
Brad 178,
Well put.
Tex179
Just listen to Amway Realist for most of it.
How long has it been since you bought tools from a “lying cowardly kingpin”? If this is something that happened to you years ago and for it only went on for a short while before you figured it out, then you need to let it go. Unless through the experience you realized that being vocal about some of the tool scams people are running, is your purpose in life then keep doing what your doing. But even if that is the case, a) there is no tool scam with Team and b) This in no way is a tool scam issue. It is a issue about product pricing, and contracts (not tool contracts). Nothing at all to do with tools, I think this is the 3rd time I’ve corrected you on this. Go post where you can do some good. So far about none of what you post on here address any issue’s at hand. In fact the vast majority of what you post is in response to what other people had to say. Do you just want to debate someone? Cause so far you’re not offering much, and what you do offer is off topic.
October 16th, 2007 at 4:45 am
no affiliation w/ alticor,
altimate corporation…
or it’s family
I surfed to this blog through a retail site, the addres of which i took from a card haded to me from a family of 6, vancouver, Canada.
Good example of another faceless american enterprise.
Personaly i belive in sustainable, ecologicaly friendly, LOCAL comsumer products;
we have a serious issue if corporations are still working towards this type of consumation.
the enviroment is directly effected by the carbon produced durring manufacture, transport, waste and marketing of the consumer products, the hotels too i supose.
be more like whole foods, wild oats,
Capers(canada)
October 16th, 2007 at 4:58 am
as far as all this scamming goes;
i dont doubt this was all constructed around using the retail indusrty as a leverage to make money, the big bucks.
October 16th, 2007 at 5:24 am
All of this could have been over and done with in 1968 if the company would have taken the guy who started this entire tool scam–and everyone knows who it is–and kicked him out on his rear end.
October 16th, 2007 at 7:23 am
Hey Tex, ain’t you fraid as all get out? With companies now suing cause of your thoughts and takin away 1st amendment rights for “disparaging remarks” I’d think you’d be runnin for them thar hills.
October 16th, 2007 at 8:20 am
Tex #184
Another complete post of gibberish! The fact is the people who quit this business or never really start their business are the people who chose to not try the training system. IBO’s utilizing the training system have made a personal and financial committment to building their business. The vast majority of these people achieve some levels of personal growth and success. Why do people drop out of Amscam? The ridiculous pricing of everyday products! Your personal tool scam has nothing to do with them quiting! and never has!
This comment was in no means meant to be a disparaging remark concerning the company formally known as Quixtar. With this post I am simply executing my 1st amendment rights!
October 16th, 2007 at 8:39 am
The Blogger Formerly Known As Captain #181,
Tis you that do not understand, sir. The 10 customer/50PV/$100 retail rules are the current Quixtar rules. —- What do you think we should follow, current rules or old rules?
The rules the FTC cited were Amway’s rules at the time. To ensure that the bulk of orders were actual retail sales (and not inventory), 70% of product each month had to be to moved and each distributor had to make a sale to at least 10 different customers each month - and Amway had to enforce these rules. These are the rules that the FTC said would spare Amway the “illegal pyramid” label. And, these are the rules the FTC still uses today as the definition of an illegal pyramid, not Quixtar’s current rules. —- So you’re suggesting every IBO follow the rules Amway had in 1979 rather than the current Quixtar rules? Also, the current rules allow self conumption to count as part of the 70%.
Quixtar’s current rules are a weakened bastardization of the Amway rules, and Q doesn’t even enforce those. As prices rose, retail sales fell, and internal consumption became the norm, Q/A slipped from being a legitimate MLM to an illegal pyramid. —- So says Orrin and Co., regarding the illegal pyramid part. Q depends on Platinums to help them enforce those rules, and you already said the Platinums don’t. Is each IBO supposed to hire their own team of lawyers in order to determine whether “Quixtar’s current rules are a weakened bastardization of the Amway rules….”? Get a grip.
OK, I can see where you’re coming from regarding how tools sales might cause retail sales to suffer in some organizations. But, there is one thing that I can’t agree with: —- Thanks for agreeing with me, it is also true.
Why should Q “get lazy” with pricing based on what the IBOAI (or IBOs, for that matter) said? It doesn’t matter what the board told them - they don’t need the board to show them how much of their product sales were retail and how much was internal consumption - they have those figures. —- They got lazy in order to make more money. As long as pricing complaints were minimal, they thought they were pricing appropriately. After all, we never have tried to compete with Walmart, as our “thing” is not lowest price, it is high quality. The corp took the position there was a lack of retail because of the lack of effort to retail, and came up with various initiatives to help this issue, such as First Circle (a two year plus project that STILL hasn’t been launched), Quixtar University, added benefits for having customers (free shipping for orders over $75, 20% PV uplift, $50 cash, etc.). However, they didn’t add more hours in the day, so we’ll see how this all plays out.
No excuse, from my perspective. —- Plenty of blame to go around, from my perspective. Both “kingpin” and corp. The corp. has made changes to benefit the typical IBO, where are the changes from the upline? Remember, I’ve already proved the larger problem is the upline tool scam, not product pricing.
October 16th, 2007 at 8:39 am
Doug #198
You need to be careful saying that, quixtar will use you as one of their poster boys claiming: “See, See, See this young innocent business owner that we own, those evil TEAM people have gotten to him and is now forcing him to send in his resignation. Oh please judges, we own you too so make a ruling amd make those bad bad people stop trying to hurt us.
October 16th, 2007 at 8:47 am
#125 AEM:
You’re correct, sort of.
Alticor is no longer interested in having IBOs who can’t follow the rules. And that’s as it should be.
Get on the train… or get under it.
October 16th, 2007 at 8:51 am
Amway realist #182,
You’re lost again! Chris Brady and Orrin Woodward violated several rules. When Quixtar decided to change the rules they resisted in defense of their tool scam interests! Brady and Woodward had violated many rules, they were given years to fix their problems, and should have been kicked out long ago! There is no way anyone would believe that the sue happy Orrin and Co. didn’t break rules and ignore the issue. I state contract law. Please put down the crack pipe and reread your answer! They asked for the courts decision on whether the contract was legal if the business was illegal, and lost the court case, DISMISSED WITH PREJUDICE (in other words, don’t even try to come back to court, you’re not welcome to waste more of the judge’s time). They were terminated, means they still had to follow the non-competee/non-solicitation parts of the contract, and since they didn’t want to follow the Quixtar rules, Quixtar didn’t want them. They wanted to be “free”, but didn’t want to follow yet another rule! You need to really get a life!!! The corp is now trying to recover AT LEAST $25,000 from 30 IBO’s IF they broke the court order…maybe you’re next. Orrin sure must be having a hard time feeding that Poyfair legal machine!
October 16th, 2007 at 9:01 am
I think the idea of going after bloggers legally is pretty cowardly, but that being said I can see why the big Q is concerned.
Doesn’t it seem a little strange that after Orrin resigned or was terminated (which is it?) a bunch of new critical blogs sprung up from TEAM members? Sure, it could be (and probably is) a coincidence, but it looks orchestrated…especially after Orrin threatened (according to Q) a negative PR campaign. 6 months ago no TEAM people were blogging negatively about Q, now they are. The prices haven’t really changed in that time. The no-compete rules haven’t changed in that time. Q has not yet changed its name back to Amway. The only thing that seems to have changed in that time is Orrin threatened a negative PR campaign and then these blogs magically appeared. I can see Q’s point even though I don’t agree with it.
October 16th, 2007 at 9:08 am
Just read that the good ole Q is mad that 7000 IBOs have resigned so they are going back to court because of it….UN-FREAKIN BELIEVABLE!! We are leaving because of YOUR ACTIONS Q, NOT Teams actions.
Here is the link to the article…
http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=7215384&nav=0RcedOuX
October 16th, 2007 at 9:19 am
OOPS my mistake, the video says that OVER 15,000 IBOs have left Q.
By the way Q, all open meeting have been stopped for quite a long time now. Secondly all Team material that was used for prospects has been unavailable since the ruling in Kent County if not longer (that goes for open meetings too).
I know I have never had any contact w/the IBOs in the lawsuit and neither has my upline. We are just mad because of YOUR LAWYERS’ actions and the corporations actions (name change etc.) have pushed us over the brink.
There is no loyality to the IBOs from the corporation and I can not promote a company that has NO loyalty to us. The IBOAI is worthless and in my opinion no longer worth the $9.
I have not resigned yet but I haven’t renewed either. I may stay on just to buy a couple products a year that I really like BUT I will NEVER promote the business opportunity again. My upline believes we should continue sponsoring people into Q (oh by the way, I’m NOT TEAM) but my integrity is on the line and I will not introduce a person to a company that has no loyality to its business owners and treats them this way.
October 16th, 2007 at 10:05 am
Perhaps if the Corp had not attempted to intimidate IBOs to the point where they felt they could not in good conscience share the business opportunity to others - potentially subjecting them to this incessant harassment and devaluing of their worth - they would not find themselves sitting in front of their PCs reading and reacting to all the “slather” …
Since some of them are also of a psychographic that is quite comfortable with social networking and blogs - voila!
Apparently, no one in the Ivory tower thought this one through very well.
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist (or barrister) to figure that out either. And, let’s not forget who fired first shot on these blogs … demonstrating the expected behaviour. And, you’ve now reaped what you sowed … Just Go Team?
Darn the bad luck …
October 16th, 2007 at 10:07 am
To Everyone:
Watch how close to the truth you get regarding Tex and Alticor. They have censored me twice.
October 16th, 2007 at 10:08 am
this is hillarious. out of the 200 some posts on here, do you all realize that if TEX didn’t exist, then we wouldn’t have so many posts? like, possibly less than 100!!
This guy exaserbates the issues, and no one values his opinion so he says it time and time again.
It reminds me of an old buddy from my childhood; he wanted or craved so much attention that he would say the same thing more than three times until we acknowledged that he said it. It got pretty annoying.
HERE is the long and the short of the sticky…
Quixtar is not violating First Amendment. They are trying to find out if info on the blogs was leaked from Orrin or Chris. That’s all.
Now, this may seem trivial to most, as Alticor can look at all their posts and links, and could very well possibly link that these blogs could survive entirely on their own with the only source of info coming from right here, the Alticor Blog.
Anyway, just my two bits. And Tex…Give it a rest. Let your fingers have a break, and just reference previous posts of yours where you have said the same things. You are just clogging up the blog.
October 16th, 2007 at 10:09 am
Tom #185,
Are you lonely and looking for attention? I didn’t see you listed in the suit. Get a clue.
Brad #186,
My upline left me to dry? How’s that? —- The tool scam.
Again, your representation of fact, the millions perhaps billions. Where are those facts posted so I may read them myself. —- Have you read the new Britt lawsuit?
You self proclaim representation of these millions of IBO’s? I don’t know any that claim you represent them. Since facts are facts, could you prove one? The one you just stated as fact I’d really like some reference to that one, for my review of course. —- They didn’t elect me, I am speaking out for their interests, unlike your upline lying cowards.
Since it’s fact you must have piles of reference material you could point us to. Talk about the sky is falling. —- Do some googling, you’ll find plenty.
Team and the IBOAI didn’t know Q wasn’t going to fix Q’s problems. New and old IBO’s didn’t know the IBOAI is no representation. Which led to piles of resignations. —- Too bad they have already fixed many of the problems, and more will come. I thought the IBOAI had more influence as well, now I know better. That’s why I asked for my $9 back.
hehe
hehe
October 16th, 2007 at 10:11 am
Hi TEX ole’ chap. I found this and I think you will like it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM
Have a great day
October 16th, 2007 at 10:28 am
Dwight #187,
I recommend withholding your compliments to Ty until AFTER you read his blog.
Monique #188,
Good point, but the corp is no shining angel in this mess. But they have made some changes, which is a good sign.
Common Sense #189,
I am the online version of Clint Eastwood, I think it was “Pale Rider”. At the end, one of the bad guys says, “Who are you”? As I recall, Clint or someone else blows him away. I’ll take up whatever conversation I choose to, thank you very much.
whoever #190,
“Hey Tex..What do think is next?” I don’t know, let’s just go out on a limb and hope you can come up with a complete sentence.
tex #191,
“i am a losser,TEAM please help me quixtar fired me out…………..LOSSER I’AM” —- Obviously a copycat Tex posting here, you can tell by the lack of capitalization and poor grammar. Loser is spelled with one “s”, you should know this, you are one. I don’t want any help from TEAM, and am not “fired” from Q, I’m still an IBO. Unlike Orrinte and his Orrinites.
GR Main line #192,
Is this supposedly open and free speech. Every other post has some reference to off the blog contacting. —- What are you talking about?
What massive conference call are you camping on. Individually we(IBO”s) are resigned to the fact that AmQuixtaCor is just trying to keep what few of them(DBA-Dependent Business Associates)they have left. GO TEX!!! —- See above.
Howd ya get that name anyhow? I see many clues. —- Wouldn’t you like to know. I would conclude you’re very clueless, but everything is relative.
October 16th, 2007 at 10:34 am
GR Main line #193,
It wasn’t posted until either very late last night or early this morning.
Mary Ann #194,
Did you ask your favorite question again?
In2Win #195,
THINGS ARE LOOKING GOOD FOR OLE’ ORRIN? How do come to this conclusion.
Just depends on how you read it? What are you using, braille? Because you must be blind.
Love you Tex Your momma would not be proud —- She is proud, she already told me that.
John #196,
The corp is doing just fine with their internet policies. You just sit back and watch, everything will be fine.
October 16th, 2007 at 10:57 am
Rich #197,
When Orrin stirs up the hornet’s nest, he should expect to be stung.
Doug #198,
They are enforcing a court order. As they should.
They are lowering prices, and what makes you think they treated the UK IBO’s differently if they wanted to leave? Got a reference?
Quixtar is out a bunch of IBO’s and volume, but sometimes you have to trim away dead branches that are spreading a disease.
Bub-bye.
Duckpond #199,
The prices of A/Q are above table, the tool scam is under the table. The corp didn’t preach 100% product loyalty, the upline did. Big differences.
whoever #200,
I don’t sleep.
Utah #201,
See the first line of this thread.
AEM #202,
How long has it been since you bought tools from a “lying cowardly kingpin”? —- A little more than 2 years ago, after buying them for about 12 years.
But even if that is the case, a) there is no tool scam with Team —- Then why did Ron Simmons and Chuck Goetschel say the tool profits were supposed to be kept secret, by direction from Q.
b) This in no way is a tool scam issue. —- You better go back and listen to “Directly Speaking” again, and review the UK disaster. It has everything to do with tools, I think this is the 3rd time I’ve corrected you on this. Go post where you can do some good. So far about none of what you post on here address any issue’s at hand. In fact the vast majority of what you post is in response to what other people had to say. Do you just want to debate someone? Cause so far you’re not offering much, and what you do offer is off topic.
RAKHiT #203/4,
Dude, where’s you (hybrid) car?
Jeffrey #205,
If you’re talking about the lying cowardly “kingpin” Dexter Yager, you’re right.
Thunderstruck #206,
No, I’m not “fraid” at all. I understand the First Amendment. My biggest “fear” is how many don’t understand it. Like you.
Amway realist #207,
Another complete post of gibberish! The fact is the people who quit this business or never really start their business are the people who chose to not try the training system, or got burned by the system. IBO’s utilizing the training system have made a personal and financial committment to building their business, and are getting ripped off. The vast majority of these people achieve some levels of personal growth and success, but it isn’t worth the cost. Why do people drop out of Amscam? The ridiculous pricing of everyday motivational tools! Your Q product pricing scam has little to do with them quiting! and never has!
This comment was meant to be a disparaging remark concerning “Amway realist”, because he has his facts wrong. With this post I am simply executing my 1st amendment rights!
October 16th, 2007 at 11:06 am
Girlpower,
If you are part of TEAM and TEAM did not follow the rules, are you saying that you didn’t follow the rules?
Or are you saying that some IBOS in TEAM did follow the rules and you are one of them. Was your boyfriend one the those who followed the rules or did not follow the rules?
October 16th, 2007 at 11:09 am
Rich #209,
Don’t worry, Q doesn’t want Doug, he’s demonstrated he would be too much of a “project”.
GirlPower #210,
That was a good one, I vote for AEM getting “under it”.
Renshi #212,
That’s why they got the court order in the first place, to use it if needed. If you’re not willing to use it, why get it? Orrin was terminated, others resigned. The UK DTI actions also happened, don’t underestimate how important that action was for this country, the regulators talk to each other, especially when they are reminded to talk by concerned citizens.
Steve #213/4,
The resignations are not why Q is going back to court. Get a clue.
Couldn’t handle the name change? Good, it worked. The corp is far more loyal to the IBO’s than the lying cowardly “kinpins”.
I do agree with the IBOAI not being worth $9, and have asked for mine back. I think all IBO’s should. The lying cowardly “kingpins” can dig into some of their tool scam dollars to pay for their organization that does NOT represent IBO’s, only their tool scam interests.
Why not just be a customer? You won’t have to pay the renewal fee.
October 16th, 2007 at 11:12 am
Tex #209
“What do you think we should follow, current rules or old rules?” — It is the law that should be followed, with which Q’s current rules don’t align.
“So you’re suggesting every IBO follow the rules Amway had in 1979 rather than the current Quixtar rules?” — I said nothing about IBOs. It is Q, the company, and their rules, that should obey the law … and they don’t.
“Also, the current rules allow self consumption to count as part of the 70%.” — The law, as interpreted and enforced by the FTC, does not.
“Q depends on Platinums to help them enforce those rules.” — In the eyes of the law, it is not Q’s prerogative to do so. The FTC requires the 1979 rules to be enforced, and Q passing the buck does not release them from their legal responsibility.
“Is each IBO supposed to hire their own team of lawyers in order to determine whether “Quixtar’s current rules are a weakened bastardization of the Amway rules….”? Get a grip.” — I have a grip, thank you very much. It doesn’t take a law degree to see that Q’s current rules pale in comparison to the FTC 1979 ruling - especially since even these rules aren’t being enforced.
“Remember, I’ve already proved the larger problem is the upline tool scam, not product pricing.” — You’ve offered an opinion, and I can see your logic and reasoning on this point. Unfortunately, that does not constitute proving anything. It does offer more food for thought, though. Thank you for that.
October 16th, 2007 at 11:14 am
Tool scam?
Whale Done audiobook $24
Eat that Frog audiobook $19.96
7 Habits audiobook $39.96
Good to Great audiobook $39.95
Rich Dad Poor Dad audiobook $19.98
All at Barnes and Nobel.com
Dale Carnegie training
12 weeks X +/-2 hours @ $1800.00
Me thinks tex doth protest too much.
Don’t like the tools; don’t buy or promote them. Do tools have value? Opinions vary.
If, in fact, there is more money made from the BSM portion of the business than from the product portion, would it not follow that the individuals consuming the tools find they are priced more favorably than are the products?
Price/value is in the perception of the purchaser. (tex is shouting his perception of reality, not necessarily THE reality)
If I buy a CD for $6 and listen to it 6 times, was that not one dollar each?
So let’s agree to disagree; I’ll continue to purchase media that I believe has value, I’ll continue to recommend that media to those to whom I believe it will enhance, and tex,…what was your point again? Oh, we’re all suckers. Right.
October 16th, 2007 at 11:20 am
I think Q is afraid to show the real number of ibo’s that resigned. It is proably closer to 107,000 and not 7000, but they did say over 7000
October 16th, 2007 at 11:23 am
Now its in my hometown
http://www.newsobserver.com/1566/story/736111.html
This is so frustrating.
*sigh*
October 16th, 2007 at 11:38 am
Tex #224
“Steve #213/4, The resignations are not why Q is going back to court. Get a clue.” — If that’s true, then it’s the reporter and you that need to get a clue, not Steve.
October 16th, 2007 at 11:48 am
No Tex:
I didn’t ask the “secret question”. I just stated some truths that someone is afraid of since I was censored twice.
October 16th, 2007 at 12:02 pm
I had my concerns in the beginning about how this thing would play out. I no longer have my concerns. I have always learned in the many years of business (not this one) that the person that screams and whines the most is the person that has the most to hide. Whomever points the finger at the other guy the most is usually the person that is trying to distract everyone from reality, they have always been the guilty party when it came to inside theft and rumor spreading. Well with all the finger pointing and this last round of 30 lawsuits aimed at whomever it may be, I see who is finger pointing and hiding from the truth. I doubt this post will see the screen but I had to get that off my chest.
October 16th, 2007 at 12:06 pm
why does my comment need to be approved by a moderator.
October 16th, 2007 at 12:09 pm
Tex #224
You are quoted saying “lying cowardly “kingpins” ”
Posting on a blog as often as you do is certainly cowardly. You just don’t get it. However I get your position here and that is to cut down Team as much as you can day and night. I honestly think you are one of those paid bloggers. If you can easily criticize our leaders as “lying cowardly “kingpins” ” then you should be man enough to take equal criticism. You are no leader worth following. Your agenda is clear to everyone. Give it up man.
October 16th, 2007 at 12:44 pm
#153 Kris M:
Your new cause?
Maybe you need a more productive hobby.
How about knitting?
October 16th, 2007 at 12:56 pm
If tex had nothing to hide then he would use his real name. I have nothing to hide, let em come try to eat me too.
October 16th, 2007 at 1:15 pm
tex #221
Love you Tex Your momma would not be proud —- She is proud, she already told me that.
Did she come down to the basement to tell you that? MA! Meatloaf!
October 16th, 2007 at 1:19 pm
#175 Common Sense:
I don’t think Ty Tribble actually asked a question.
October 16th, 2007 at 1:26 pm
G #215,
Perhaps if the Orrinites had not attempted to intimidate the IBO’s via the tool scam to the point where they felt they could not in good conscience share the business opportunity to others - potentially subjecting them to this incessant harassment and devaluing of their worth - they would not find themselves sitting in front of their PCs reading and reacting to all the “slather” …
Since some of them are also of a psychographic that is quite comfortable with social networking and blogs - voila!
Apparently, no one in the Orrinite tower thought this one through very well.
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist (or barrister) to figure that out either. And, let’s not forget who fired first shot on these blogs … demonstrating the expected behaviour. And, you’ve now reaped what you sowed … Illegal Pyramid lawsuit?
Darn the bad luck …now Orrin will get his due in arbitration.
Mary Ann #216,
To Everyone: Why can’t Mary Ann reframe how her “truth” is stated?
no one values my opinion #217,
This is hilarious. Out of the 200 some posts on here, do you all realize that if Tex didn’t exist, then we wouldn’t have so many facts? Like, possibly less than 1!!
This guy nails the issues, and no Orrinite values his opinion so he says it time and time again, for the benefit of other readers.
HERE is the long and the short of the sticky…
Quixtar is not violating First Amendment. They are trying to find out if info on the blogs was leaked from Orrin or Chris, or the blogs were encouraged and/or supported by Orrin and Co. That’s all.
Now, this may seem trivial to most, as Alticor can look at all their posts and links, and could very well possibly link that these blogs could survive entirely on their own with the only source of info coming from right here, the Alticor Blog. —- But that is not the issue. The issue is stated above.
Anyway, just my two bits. And “no one values my opinion” …you’re right, we don’t. Give it a rest. Let your fingers have a break, and just reference previous posts of yours where you have said the same things. You are just clogging up the blog.
In2Win #219,
Funncy video (if you care for Monte Python humor), but it doesn’t apply to this situation, because the Orrinites don’t want to consider the facts.
DLSChicago #223,
Who cares? TEAM is gone.
The Blogger Formerly Known As Captain #225,
It is the law that should be followed, with which Q’s current rules don’t align. —- The FTC enforces current law, not old law.
I said nothing about IBOs. It is Q, the company, and their rules, that should obey the law … and they don’t. —- Which law is Q breaking?
The law, as interpreted and enforced by the FTC, does not. —- Prove it.
The FTC requires the 1979 rules to be enforced, and Q passing the buck does not release them from their legal responsibility. —- I agree Q has “passed the buck” to a certain extent, but this doesn’t give the upline a total pass on the issue. Also, I think there are new policies which will clamp down on this issue, although I haven’t seen the details.
I have a grip, thank you very much. It doesn’t take a law degree to see that Q’s current rules pale in comparison to the FTC 1979 ruling - especially since even these rules aren’t being enforced. —- What are you gripping, your neck? Perhaps you should loosen your grip to let some blood get to your brain. It doesn’t take a law degree to know laws and the interpretation of those laws change over time.
You’ve offered an opinion, and I can see your logic and reasoning on this point. Unfortunately, that does not constitute proving anything. It does offer more food for thought, though. Thank you for that. —- You’re welcome, but my opinion is an analysis based on facts, making it far more credible than opinions based on emotions.
toomuchtex #226,
Why did you use audiobooks, the books sell for about half than that at BN. I have purchased hundreds of books for about $1 each, and the library has many of those books for free. The upline buys them at less than half the cost in bulk and sells them for full retail prices. Cha-ching! Yes, tool scam.
Robert Kiosaki training - free.
Me thinks toomuchtex doth ignore the facts too much.
Don’t like the tools; don’t buy or promote them. Do tools have value? Opinions vary. —- Opinions vary, but the scam doesn’t. I like the tools, not the prices.
If, in fact, there is more money made from the BSM portion of the business than from the product portion, would it not follow that the individuals consuming the tools find they are priced more favorably than are the products? —- No, it would not, because the upline lying cowardly “kingpins” are not honest most of their income is from tools.
Price/value is in the perception of the purchaser. (tex is shouting his perception of reality, not necessarily THE reality) —- True, but when you lie to your “teammates” and “business partners” where most of your profit comes from, you are a liar and a coward.
If I buy a CD for $6 and listen to it 6 times, was that not one dollar each? —- I’ve heard that lame excuse as well. How many IBO’s do that?
So let’s agree to disagree; I’ll continue to purchase media that I believe has value, I’ll continue to recommend that media to those to whom I believe it will enhance, and toomuchtex,…what was your point again? Oh, you’re all suckers. Right.
October 16th, 2007 at 1:42 pm
tex,
Difference between buying tools and using tools. From the way you communicate you have 12 years of unopened tools in your basement. But let me ask you, how many people made it to platinum without a system? how many made it to emerald without a system? how many to diamond? And what LOA did you sign up in?
“But even if that is the case, a) there is no tool scam with Team —- Then why did Ron Simmons and Chuck Goetschel say the tool profits were supposed to be kept secret, by direction from Q.” I think you said yourself on this. Team wanted to be transparent with system income, Quixtar did not want them to be. They were as transparent as they could be.
And as interested as I am in the UK situation and the Directly Speaking tapes, this is not the UK situation and has nothing to do with tools.
Following your logic, Amway wants to shut down BSM companies, so first step in their plan is to get in real hot water with the Indian and UK governments, then next step in their plan is to get sued in CA over contracts. How does that help? Plus the only changes in tools for the US I’ve heard of is systems have to be accredited for their leaders to earn the QBI. And you’ve pointed out before, that doesn’t stop “MASSIVE tool profits.” So lay it out for me tex, how do all these pieces fit together to form a plan to stop the ‘tool scam.’
I have not heard or read one thing from Quixtar regarding team tools (other than the lies they told). I would think if the root cause of all this is tools, somebody other than you would be talking about it. You’ve been told you are wrong so many times (4 by me), you are still wrong. Closing your eyes and posting it over and over again doesn’t make it true.
October 16th, 2007 at 1:55 pm
Tex, you said, “But even if that is the case, a) there is no tool scam with Team —- Then why did Ron Simmons and Chuck Goetschel say the tool profits were supposed to be kept secret, by direction from Q.”
(forgot question mark, I know how you like to stay on top of your grammar)
Being the Quixtar/Amway tool scam expert I would have thought you knew the answer to this.
Q did not want anyone to know that tools could be more profitable for the IBO than retail.
Isn’t that the cause you are fighting?
TEAM is saying they wanted to promote the additional profit, Q said no.
October 16th, 2007 at 1:57 pm
doublehooks #227,
I think you’re guessing.
Wondering #228,
How many people in NC haven’t already heard of Yager and Britt?
The Blogger Formerly Known As Captain #229,
The reporter is clueless, all 3 of you should read the lawsuit.
Mary Ann #230,
As I said before, why not restate your “truths” in an acceptable manner?
glenn #231/2,
I had no concerns in the beginning about how this thing would play out. I no longer have my concerns, as I wasn’t concerned to begin with. I have always learned in the many years of business (not this one) that the person that screams and whines the most is the person that has the most to hide. Whomever points the finger at the other guy the most is usually the person that is trying to distract everyone from reality, they have always been the guilty party when it came to inside theft and rumor spreading. Well with all the finger pointing from the “illegal pyramid” lawsuit that started this disaster, and this last round of a single lawsuit against 30 “John Doe’s” to enforce a court aimed at whomever it may be, I see who is finger pointing and hiding from the truth. I have doubt this post will see the screen but I had to get that off my chest.
All comments need to be approved by a moderator. Whether you’re an Orrinite or not. I realize this comes as a shock to you, but there are places that are fair. This blog also posts differing opinions, unlike the IBOAI and freetheibo blogs.
freeatlast #233,
Posting on a blog as often as I do is certainly not cowardly. You just don’t get it. However you also don’t get my position here and that is to cut down all of the lying cowardly “kinpins” as much as I can day and night, TEAM was a small part of a much bigger problem. I honestly think you are not one of those paid bloggers. If I can easily criticize your leaders as “lying cowardly “kingpins” then I am more than man enough to take equal criticism, but I haven’t scammed anyone, so what are you criticizing? You are no leader worth following. Your agenda is clear to everyone. Give it up man.
GirlPower #234,
As long as the knitting needles aren’t sharp, because he isn’t.
glenn #235,
Wow, glenn. That really narrows it down, giving only your first name. Perhaps you should eat yourself, then you wouldn’t be wasting my oxygen.
October 16th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
Every time tex cries about the hidden tool profits, he shows his ignorance.
So what is tex’s real issue anyway?
Doesn’t want us to buy tools from sources of which he disapproves or at prices of which he he disapproves. So we need tex accrediting now?
His remedy? Post as much whining negative about tools as possible in as many places as possible hurting as many prospects/new people as possible.
tex is too yellow to build his business so he wants to interfere with others building theirs.
Dog in the manger.
October 16th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
Tex #238 -
Monte has excellent relativity here
Your response to in2win #219 actually validates it - but as is often the case of satire, it can go over the target’s head - thoughts on that?
October 16th, 2007 at 2:14 pm
Tex #222
So if the tools… and tools only… are the problem, tell me why 2/3 of my downline ( who NEVER bought a single cd ) ALL quit ordering within 60-90 days of signing up.
I got sick of having to constantly replace people because they KNEW they were being ripped off on the price of the stuff… as one said to me…again, having NEVER bought a single item or been to a single function, open, seminar…nothing. She did not spend one $ making Orrin wealthier, but she sure helped line Devos and VanAndel pockets !
I was still too new when I was sponsored in to even try to get people on system. I did them worse even bringing them in at all, in my opinion now, since all the money they spent was wasted.
That person who said that to me was one of about 100 people this last 12 months who dropped out . The only people who have stuck this out have been the ones who saw , on their own, that the only way they even had a slim chance of making a go of this business was to get the people skills, and experienced knowledge of those who had actually done it.
So tell us again that it’s the “tools” that’s the problem.
PS…If I had to be in this business 12 years and still didn’t have success (that you evidently don’t have) and FINALLY figured out the only way to reconcile my lack of accomplishment was to place blame on tools, I’d be disgruntled too.
In my worst nightmare EVER, no one would ever string me along that long if I wasn’t getting somewhere. TWELVE YEARS ? are you kidding me ? How long did they TELL you it would take to get somewhere in this business ?
October 16th, 2007 at 2:16 pm
#223 DLSChicago:
I have never considered myself part of TEAM, however if you check my LOA is says TEAM. I lost interest (in being involved w/TEAM) after being told that Quixtar was just our supplier. (I was told that by someone at a rally, btw, and not by my beau.)
My beau has never agreed with or approved of doing some of the things the way TEAM was advocating. And aside from stacking me, he did not make a habit of doing things incorrectly.
The easy way to do things is not always the best (or right) way.
I don’t believe that everyone associated w/TEAM is bad or were purposely violating the rules. I suspect that most of them just didn’t know any better. And when Quixtar informed them that they needed to adjust things to conform to the rules they wanted to kill the messenger rather than question the people who had trained them incorrectly.
October 16th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
benjamin #236,
No, she is deceased. But she knew what I was doing before she died, and neither of our houses has a basement.
GirlPower #237,
You’re right, Ty didn’t ask a question.
AEM #239,
Difference between buying tools and using tools. From the way you communicate you have 12 years of unopened tools in your basement. —- You are wrong, but I do have much more than 12 years WORTH (in terms of quantity) of tools. Many of the tools bought online for pennies on the dollar are unopened. But I don’t have a basement.
But let me ask you, how many people made it to platinum without a system? —- Many did, before the systems were created in the late 60’s.
how many made it to emerald without a system? —- See above.
How many to diamond? —– See above.
And what LOA did you sign up in? —- None of your business, and I have other reasons for saying this as well.
I think you said yourself on this. Team wanted to be transparent with system income, Quixtar did not want them to be. They were as transparent as they could be. —- What how much did TEAM make on tools? After all, you know the answer from the conference, as you stated above.
And as interested as I am in the UK situation and the Directly Speaking tapes, this is not the UK situation and has nothing to do with tools. —- Yes, it does. But if you insist on sticking your head in the ground, or any other dark place, that is your decision.
Following your logic, Amway wants to shut down BSM companies, so first step in their plan is to get in real hot water with the Indian and UK governments, then next step in their plan is to get sued in CA over contracts. How does that help? —- That isn’t what I said. I said troubles in the other countries will spill over to this one and clean up the mess. I would have preferred the corp had taken the initiative in the tool scam, and they have lost the ability to do that, now they are in the reactionary mode.
Plus the only changes in tools for the US I’ve heard of is systems have to be accredited for their leaders to earn the QBI. And you’ve pointed out before, that doesn’t stop “MASSIVE tool profits.” So lay it out for me tex, how do all these pieces fit together to form a plan to stop the ‘tool scam.’ —- The current accreditation process does very little in the tool scam area. That is why the UK and “Directly Speaking” recordings are so important. But if you don’t want to read and listen to this information, why should I waste my time explaining the issues to you?
I have heard or read many things from the internet regarding team tools and many other tool systems (including the lies the “kingpins” told). I would think if the root cause of all this is tools, somebody other than you would be saying it isn’t true, like the lying cowardly “kingpins” themselves. After all, Jody Victor threatened “Deb” on qblog over how he qualified as a Crown, then bragged about on their site (no longer there), and even disclosed her last name/identity. You can probably find some of the discussion/information on qblog. You’ve been told you are wrong so many times (4+ by me), you are still wrong. Closing your eyes and posting it over and over again doesn’t make it true.
October 16th, 2007 at 2:36 pm
Hey everyone! Look! Look! See Tex’s response in #224! He made a typo, about halfway through his comment. What the heck is a “kinpin”? HAHAHAHAHAHA
The great and almighty Tex made a MISTAKE! Intolerable, Tex. How COULD you. You know, that typo now officially negates the sum totality of every single thing you’ve said thus far on every single blog in existence.
Boy, you’re a great teacher! Thanks! Couldn’t have done this without ya.
Have a good day.
October 16th, 2007 at 2:39 pm
Tex #238
“The FTC enforces current law, not old law.” — Q’s rules changed … the law didn’t. What was the law in 1979 is still the law today.
“Which law is Q breaking?” — The FTC laws regarding illegal pyramid schemes.
“Prove it.” — Please re-read my entry #145, which provides a link to an FTC document regarding this issue. The document refers to several cases, most notably In re. Koscot Interplanetary, Inc. 86 F.T.C.; Webster v. Omnitrition Int’l, Inc., 79 F.3d 776, 781-82 (9th Cir. 1996); and In re. Amway Corp., 93 F.T.C. 618 (1979) - the same cases cited in Woodward et al v. Quixtar, btw. It compares and contrasts the companies, and claims the 1979 Amway rule changes (buyback, 70%, 10 customer) are what saved it from being labeled an illegal pyramid.
It also states (as was cited in my response #145 above): “This is the definition of illegal pyramiding that our agency and the federal courts continue to rely on.”
“It doesn’t take a law degree to know laws and the interpretation of those laws change over time.” — Are you saying that the FTC laws regarding illegal pyramid schemes (or their interpretation) have changed since 1979? OK - now it’s your turn. Prove it.
“You’re welcome, but my opinion is an analysis based on facts, making it far more credible than opinions based on emotions.”
I agree that opinions based on fact are more credible than opinions based on emotion. However, while I see some facts coming from your keyboard, I see much, much more negative emotion.
October 16th, 2007 at 2:54 pm
Tex:
In your response #184 to my question, you state:
“I saw a tool scam. . . ”
First of all, you saw “a” tool scam? As if TEAM is the only tool system involved with Quixtar? And now that TEAM is no longer with Quixtar, why do you care? It has nothing to do with you anymore. Why aren’t you pursuing this where it belongs, in your own LOA and all the IBOS over there in your own group? To put it nicely: You’re “relieving yourself” into the wind, bud.
And you further respond: “I’m mad as hell and am not going to let the tool scam continue any more.”
So you think the way to keep this from happening again is to condemn, criticize, and belittle the supposed “victims” of this system that you personally as judge and jury have labeled a “scam”? Sounds like you’re one of those people who like to blame the rape victim for the rape, don’t you agree?
Where’s your sympathy? Where’s your offer of help? You’re attacking the wrong people, Tex. Why can’t you understand that?
You want to champion the cause? Then turn your time and efforts to the source.
October 16th, 2007 at 2:57 pm
AEM #239,
Update. You can find the Jody Victor post, mentioned previously, here.
The IBOAI can take down their old content, but they can’t hide from what they said.
October 16th, 2007 at 3:02 pm
Read the other day that people wanting to leave Quixtar cant because the line of communications has been severed. I really didn’t think Quixtar would stoop to this level until I received a phone call from someone trying to resign and sure enough, can’t get thru (by the way, I did not suggest or entice this person to resign, they decided on their own….no really). Is this Q’s lastest plan? Do they think by cutting off the option to resign will force people to stay. I just don’t get it.
Then, I received phone calls from people NOT IN THE BUSINESS, just friends and such, who have read about Quixtar suing bloggers. The response of each was very similiar. They couldn’t believe a company would do something so idiotic. These are simple civilians who have no interest in being a business owner. Quixtar, it seems you have dug a hole with this battle with TEAM, and to get out, instead of climbing the ladder you keep digging deeper, thinking you’ll break thru to the other side. I got news for ya….ain’t gonna happen. It’s time to stop all of this maddness, this mess does nothing positive for anyone. What do you have to gain? Think anybody who has resigned is coming back? Unfortunantly you can’t go into rewind and undo all the damage that has been done, but you can do the right thing and just let things happen. I truly believe TEAM is the answer, it is heading in the right direction. Quixtar/Amway/Alticor or whatever you’re called this week, your PR blunder will take years, if ever, to corret.
October 16th, 2007 at 3:35 pm
tex-
I retract my comments about you mother, that was totally out of line. I think you are a blowhard and a jerk, but I sincerely apologize for saying that.
October 16th, 2007 at 3:48 pm
DLSChicago #240,
Thanks for pointing out the missing question mark.
I’ve said A/Q has been screwing up since 1983, by not enforcing what Rich DeVos said in the “Directly Speaking” tapes. If A/Q told the lying cowardly “kingpins” not to disclose tool profits (a question I have asked Q on this blog, and has gone unanswered), that is mistake number one.
However, I have also asked TEAM (and any other tool profiteer/scammer who wants to answer), why didn’t you lower the tool prices so that you wouldn’t be making most of your profit from the tool scam? That question has also gone unanswered, mistake number two.
You are trying to accuse me of being against TEAM and for Quixtar. You are wrong. I am for the truth. If that makes TEAM or any other tool scammer look bad, so be it. If it makes Q look bad, so be it.
toomuchtex #242,
So we need Tex accrediting now? Not a bad idea.
His remedy? Post as much truth about tool profits as possible in as many places as possible helping as many prospects/new people as possible.
Tex is too smart to build his business right now so he wants to educate others building theirs.
Dog in the manger?
G #243,
I’m not a big Monte fan. Besides the typo on “funny”, no further comment is necessary.
dannie #244,
I never said tool profits are the only problem, only the biggest one.
tell you why 2/3 of your downline (who NEVER bought a single cd ) ALL quit ordering within 60-90 days of signing up? —- Check your breath? I don’t know, why don’t you ask them? I suspect they were taught to be 100% loyal to products, even the ones with inflated costs, were not educated on the advantages of the others, and didn’t get any help unless they were on the system.
I got sick of having to constantly replace people because they KNEW they were being ripped off on the price of the stuff… as one said to me…again, having NEVER bought a single item or been to a single function, open, seminar…nothing. She did not spend one $ making Orrin wealthier, but she sure helped line Devos and VanAndel pockets ! —- See above.
I was still too new when I was sponsored in to even try to get people on system. I did them worse even bringing them in at all, in my opinion now, since all the money they spent was wasted. —- See above.
That person who said that to me was one of about 100 people this last 12 months who dropped out . The only people who have stuck this out have been the ones who saw , on their own, that the only way they even had a slim chance of making a go of this business was to get the people skills, and experienced knowledge of those who had actually done it. —- In other words, the ones who haven’t figured out the tool scam yet.
So tell us again that it’s the “tools” that’s the problem. —- It’s the tool scam that’s the main problem. How’s that?
PS…If I had to be in this business 12 years and still didn’t have success (that you evidently don’t have) and FINALLY figured out the only way to reconcile my lack of accomplishment was to place blame on tools, I’d be disgruntled too. —- It sure beat quitting and allowing the tool scam to continue.
In my worst nightmare EVER, no one would ever string me along that long if I wasn’t getting somewhere. TWELVE YEARS ? are you kidding me ? How long did they TELL you it would take to get somewhere in this business ? —- No, I’m not kidding you, and there are plenty other IBO’s in similar situations. They said it would take 2-5 years IF I did every single step, exactly as described. I never did ALL the steps EXACTLY as they said, so they tried to blame me, when it was the tool scam all along. Many former IBO’s believe that garbage, blame themselves, and feel guilty.
October 16th, 2007 at 3:50 pm
Folks, my grandmother reads this blog.
Okay, not really, but at least pretend.
October 16th, 2007 at 3:57 pm
Tex #241
“The reporter is clueless, all 3 of you should read the lawsuit.” — I’m sorry, but I haven’t seen the actual lawsuit. The only thing posted here was a link to the article, so that’s what I was going on. Do you have a link (or a copy) of the lawsuit? Thanks.
BTW, Tex: why do you consider tools sales as a scam anyway?
Because tools are offered to prospects and IBOs? Tool purchases are voluntary, not obligatory.
Because the profits aren’t disclosed? Do you do business with *any* privately owned companies out there? Would they be scammers just because they refuse to reveal their profits to you?
October 16th, 2007 at 4:01 pm
Captain #255, click on the word “suit” in the second sentence. That should get you there.
October 16th, 2007 at 4:08 pm
GirlPower #245,
You are, as usual, right on target.
cmon.people.think #247,
Thanks for pointing that out, I never claimed to be perfect. However, there is a huge difference between a simple typo and misspelling words, especially when the typo is located in a sentence that criticizes me for being dumb, stupid, etc.
The Blogger Formerly Known As Captain #248,
Q’s rules changed … the law didn’t. What was the law in 1979 is still the law today. —- You sure about that?
The FTC laws regarding illegal pyramid schemes. —- Then you better tell the FTC, maybe they need your “help” to figure it out.
Please re-read my entry #145, which provides a link to an FTC document regarding this issue. The document refers to several cases, most notably In re. Koscot Interplanetary, Inc. 86 F.T.C.; Webster v. Omnitrition Int’l, Inc., 79 F.3d 776, 781-82 (9th Cir. 1996); and In re. Amway Corp., 93 F.T.C. 618 (1979) - the same cases cited in Woodward et al v. Quixtar, btw. —- Oh, you mean the Orrin lawsuit that was DISMISSED WITH PREJUDICE?
It compares and contrasts the companies, and claims the 1979 Amway rule changes (buyback, 70%, 10 customer) are what saved it from being labeled an illegal pyramid. —- That doesn’t mean the laws or the interpretation of the laws haven’t changed, or there is only one way of meeting the intent of the laws.
It also states (as was cited in my response #145 above): “This is the definition of illegal pyramiding that our agency and the federal courts continue to rely on.” —- Again, DISMISSED WITH PREJUDICE.
Are you saying that the FTC laws regarding illegal pyramid schemes (or their interpretation) have changed since 1979? OK - now it’s your turn. Prove it. —- Nice try, that’s what the Q lawyers are for.
I agree that opinions based on fact are more credible than opinions based on emotion. However, while I see some facts coming from your keyboard, I see much, much more negative emotion. —- That’s because you refuse to accept the facts, and all you see is the emotion.
cmon.people.think #249,
Nice try at parsing words. I have said many times TEAM ran ONE of the tool scams, there are many more that need to be cleaned up.
It has everything to do with me still. Why am I pursuing this where it belongs, in all LOA’s and all the IBO’s in all groups? To put it nicely: I’m “relieving myself” into the rest of the tool scams, bud.
And I further respond: “I’m mad as hell and am not going to let the tool scam continue any more.” So I think the way to keep this from happening again is to condemn, criticize, and belittle the “victims” of this system that don’t see the facts as they are. I wish I could personally act as judge and jury have labeled a “scam”, because the lying cowardly “kingpins” would be corrected long ago. This has no similarity of blaming a rape victim. You are being financially raped and don’t seem to notice.
Where’s your sympathy? Where’s your offer of help? You’re attacking the wrong people, Tex. Why can’t you understand that? —- I am sympathetic, but you can’t be sympathetic to someone who has been lied to and doesn’t even recognize the problem. I’m here to help, that’s why I put the facts on the table and call a spade a spade. I’m attacking the scammers, and those who support them. Can’t you understand that?
You want to champion the cause? Then turn your time and efforts to the source. —- That’s exactly what I have been doing. The source is the lying cowardly “kingpins”, and those who support them.
October 16th, 2007 at 4:11 pm
CC #256
I may be wrong, but I don’t think the “suit” link in the second sentence refers to the same lawsuit Tex and I are discussing. That suit is the one that started this blog entry, where Q is suing 30 John Does.
However, the suit Tex and I are discussing is the suit that Utah provided a link to in #201. Apparently, Woodward et al is being sued for the mass exodus of 15,000+ IBOs.
Same suit? Different suit? Can someone clarify the issue, please? If it *is* a different suit, could someone provide a copy or a link?
October 16th, 2007 at 4:22 pm
Captain, don’t feel bad - you’re not the first to have missed the link ..
October 16th, 2007 at 4:26 pm
Thunderstruck #251,
Write a letter, mail it, and forget about it. Maybe their phone lines are busy, there are a lot of issues out there. You’re right, you don’t get it.
The corp has a right to enforce the court order they won. Most people don’t know enough to have an opinion that is meaningful. There is plenty to gain, after they flush the Orrinites away.
Think anybody who has resigned is coming back? —- It depends why they resign, if it was because they supported TEAM, I don’t want them back.
Unfortunately, Orrin can’t go into rewind and undo all the damage that has been done, but Q can do the right thing and just let the arbitration process bury him. I truly believe TEAM is the worst of the worst, it is heading in the right direction. Quixtar/Amway/Alticor, your PR policy is doing just fine. If it wasn’t, the Orrinites wouldn’t be “bitching” as much as they are. Keep it up.
ben #252,
No apology necessary. I think you are a blowhard and a jerk, too.
Admin #254,
If you want to use the “Grandmother” criteria, you’ll have to work harder to edit the comments. Are you willing to do that? If not, I doubt you will get agreement from the Orrinites to behave themselves.
The Blogger Formerly Known As Captain #255,
The only thing posted here was a link to the article, so that’s what I was going on. Do you have a link (or a copy) of the lawsuit? Thanks. —- See Admin’s comment, it is at the top of this page. And read the document before you start arguing about it next time.
BTW, Tex: why do you consider tools sales as a scam anyway? —- The prices result in MASSIVE profits that are not shared with prospects and IBO’s.
Because tools are offered to prospects and IBOs? Tool purchases are voluntary, not obligatory. —- Yes, tools are voluntary, but so is success, as they say. The tools are voluntary by rule only, not in practical terms, because the help evaporates unless you buy the tools. Which is also against the rules.
Because the profits aren’t disclosed? —- Bingo.
Do you do business with *any* privately owned companies out there? Would they be scammers just because they refuse to reveal their profits to you? —- If they claimed to be my “business partners” and “teammates”, I payed them for tools which were their main source of profit, and they didn’t disclose that fact, they would be scammers.
October 16th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
Tex # 253 -
Like that last paragraph of this post …
- thinking Ada qualifies as “one of the supporters” since prox 83 - due to their concerns regarding profit (which some have also deemed excessive)
October 16th, 2007 at 4:29 pm
Tex #241:
For heaven’s sake, be a litte more discreet. Corporate Communications asked me to restate. Now, how did YOU know about that?
October 16th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
The Blogger Formerly Known As Captain #258,
You are wrong.
The news got the story wrong. Are you surprised the media has distorted the story? The fact that thousands of IBO’s have left is evidence of not following the court order, but not proof. That is why Q wants the names of the “John Doe’s”, to see if they can find additional evidence to prove in court whether Orrin and Co. are not following the court order, which would quite naturally result in the loss of thousands of IBO’s. Q can’t sue for people quitting, but they can sue if the people left because Orrin and Co. violated the court order.
There is no additional or new suit, just the one mentioned above.
October 16th, 2007 at 4:41 pm
G #259,
He’s also not the first to comment on the lawsuit without reading it.
Mary Ann #262,
How about a multiple choice question? It was one of the below reasons, pick one.
A. It’s a vast, Quixtar conspiracy against poor little Mary Ann,
B. I have been asked to restate posts, and had some edited,
C. Aliens are invading at noon tomorrow, so who cares?
D. All of the above.
The “Final Jeopardy” tick-tock song plays in the background, while we await Mary Ann’s answer…. We’re all pulling for you, Mary Ann, choose wisely….take your time….there’s no time limit like the real Jeopardy gameshow….unless you pick C or D.
October 16th, 2007 at 4:50 pm
cmon.people.think #247,
Upon further review, it appears I wrote “kinpin” several times above. Perhaps my “g” key gets stuck, or it is a Freudian slip. The lying cowardly “kingpins” do act like “kinfolk”.
From kinfolk.org, kinfolk - n. pl.: people descended from a common ancestor; [syn: family, family line, folk, kinsfolk, sept, phratry] (Websters New World Dictionary, 1913)
Reminds me of the TEAM “family tree”, lots of stacking, not much branching out. Eventually causes major problems. Think about it.
October 16th, 2007 at 4:53 pm
G #261,
I don’t understand, please expand your comment.
October 16th, 2007 at 5:15 pm
Now I get it.
Orrin wanted to “lead the consumer rebellion”, and when he saw things blowing up in the UK, he had to be the “leader” and get terminated first. What better way than put together a ridiculous lawsuit and refuse to listen how to get back on track. I may be slow, but once I get it, I get it.
Good job Orrin, I think you “won” the contest.
October 16th, 2007 at 5:29 pm
Tex #222
Facts are facts-the vast majority of people that join quixtar never purchase another product. Those that do, stop after a relatively short time (see quixtar internal docs from the Ca lawsuit). Over pricing drives away many of the best people! Quixtar itself knows people don’t purchase product (see the new requirements for IBO’s) and that’s why they are requiring certain sales goals within 90 days! Wake up! You must be blogging with your mind closed! These facts are all readily available at many of the places you quote!
This comment was meant to be a disparaging remark concerning “TEX”, because he ALWAYS has his facts wrong. With this post I am simply executing my 1st amendment rights!
October 16th, 2007 at 5:46 pm
Cmon.people.think: Your two most recently submitted comments would read a lot better if you found some different word choices. Care to edit and resubmit?
October 16th, 2007 at 5:48 pm
Oh good heavens, Tex:
You say: “Upon further review, it appears I wrote “kinpin” several times above. Perhaps my “g” key gets stuck, or it is a Freudian slip. The lying cowardly “kingpins” do act like “kinfolk”.”
Geez, guy, you made a typo! Give it a break already! But don’t rag on me next time I make one either.
October 16th, 2007 at 5:51 pm
Tex #262
No wait, I thought the vast conspiracy was against poor little Tex. You know, with all the tool issues and all. Poor Tex, the tools are bad, bad, poor Tex. Has to blog night and day to get over his trauma.
Be a little more discreet, Tex, for the other people. Some of them really believe you are an IBO. You might be able to run that scam a little longer.
October 16th, 2007 at 5:57 pm
Interesting story about the court testimony:
http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=7220519&nav=0Rce
“On the stand, Woodward denied he was breaking Quixtar’s rules, and his lawyers provided a 2003 letter from Quixtar praising him for his business practices: “By growing right, you create a solid business foundation upon which you can continue to build.”
He said he never heard anything different until he was fired in August.”
I wonder what the rest of the letter said? If it was anything like what Quixtar claimed in his termination letter, it was something to the effect of, “You need to stop breaking the various rules over and over again. By growing right….”
Was there was cross-examination on this topic? If so, and if the termination letter was accurate, even I could reduce Orrin to a snively puddle.
October 16th, 2007 at 6:18 pm
Amway realist #268,
Facts are facts-the vast majority of people that join quixtar never purchase another product. —- You are blaming Quixtar for something the sponsor should be doing.
Those that do, stop after a relatively short time (see quixtar internal docs from the Ca lawsuit). Over pricing drives away many of the best people! —- You should have pointed folks towards the products that are competitively priced, and spent more time on teaching the quality advantages, concentration that produces competitive per-use costs, and taught them how to sell the products. But you were too busy pimping the tools.
Quixtar itself knows people don’t purchase product (see the new requirements for IBO’s) and that’s why they are requiring certain sales goals within 90 days! Wake up! You must be blogging with your mind closed! These facts are all readily available at many of the places you quote! —- What is a “required sales goal”? I have never denied there is a lack of retail sales, but this issue pales in comparison to the tool scam. Have you read the UK update?
This comment was meant to be a disparaging remark concerning “Amway realist”, because he ALWAYS has his facts wrong. With this post I am simply executing my 1st amendment rights!
cmon.people.think #270,
As I said before, there is a huge difference between a simple typo and misspelling words left and right. I don’t even comment on most of the errors, mainly when someone tries (in vain) to put me down.
But I thought my “kinfolk” story was pretty good, even if I have to say so myself.
Mary Ann #271,
Still no answer? That’s okay, there’s plenty of time left. Does this mean you’ve ruled out “A” and are moving on to “B”?
Shock. Horror. You mean YOU don’t think I’m an IBO? Why don’t you ask me a question from the web site that only an IBO could find? Just don’t take too much time, I know the “test” is difficult and deserves your full attention. After all, all of our lives may depend on your answer, if “C” or “D” is the right answer.
October 16th, 2007 at 6:20 pm
Mary Ann # 262
Another time on one of the postings, I noticed that Tex responded to himself…as if he were moderator.
I asked the moderator about the oddness of it…no response…now you’ve caught something as well….he’s getting sloppy, huh ?
October 16th, 2007 at 6:47 pm
dannie #274,
Stop it. Now you’ve got Mary Ann thinking the right answer is “A” again.
Nothing like being specific, “Another time on one of the postings, I noticed that Tex responded to himself…as if he were moderator.” No wonder you Orrinites are confused, you can’t even find the post where I made this “error”. You guys really are clueless.
Now let Mary Ann get back to her “test”. Eventually, she may even get back to the real issue, which is reframing/restating her question. After all, it worked for cmon.people.think in #269/270 (that’s a hint, Mary Ann, and should lead you to the right answer). Nothing like being so brilliant that you recognize the right answer when told.
October 16th, 2007 at 6:54 pm
Tex #272,
Once again, by adding your commentary you’re attempting to forward a perception about what the letter may/may not have said. Shocking how you may twist a small fact, (there was a letter), into more evidence supporting your opinion. Oh wait, fact in your mind. In your mind your opinion is always fact. Even if you have to connect dots with imaginary facts you make up. Like the quote from the letter above, that some may read and believe is a quote from a letter, the quote however, that you made up. This is irresponsible in my opinion(fact). If you truly wanted to move into the future with integrity, and with the Q/A business why not try truth and fact only, why always the vindictive, sarcastic, and demeaning attachments.
I’ve been asking questions trying to get answers about alot of things, hard work sifting through your redundant commentary on every single post.
I suspect flaming sarcasm and insults help deflect an actual comment that may be getting to a point. Like your ridiculous rebuttal to Mary Ann. How did you know? Don’t answer, come back with a status quo sarcastic comment.
You have yet to reply to my questions which I thought were fair. I wasn’t asking predetermined questions, I was asking to satisfy my curiosity. I would actually like to know some things, not just generate animosity and angry debate, fueled by massive speculation.
October 16th, 2007 at 7:38 pm
Tex:
Yes, I agree–there is a big difference between making a typo and misspelling words left and right. So apologize to me for your rude remark about my one typo, as I do know how to spell quite well, thank you.
Fact is, you did make a mistake, whether you want to acknowledge it or not.
October 16th, 2007 at 7:57 pm
You know what Tex….just put it where the sun don’t shine.
Just because I prefer to not go back thru the thousand postings you’ve made to find where I stated the point, does NOT mean it didn’t happen.
Just because you think saying it makes it so, does not mean that it does.
Just because you are so bitter that you were too stupid to NOT know that money was made on tools ( for TWELVE years ).
Just because you think Team will not go on and be stronger JUST BECAUSE of people like you,does not mean SQUAT.
BTW, in case you can’t tell, this IS an insulting, sniping, snotty comment…
You started it when you called me clueless…I’m NOT the one who didn’t ask where the tool money came from and where it went…YOU ARE. So YOU get a clue !
Just because…yada yada yada yada.
October 16th, 2007 at 8:04 pm
Tex:
It’s a little difficult to answer when you censor me. You guys are really scared. Third post of mine censored!!
October 16th, 2007 at 8:11 pm
dannie #274.
Yeah, real sloppy, I noticed it as well! Just wait, Tex will be gone and a new blogger, new name, will appear with the same nastiness as Tex.
October 16th, 2007 at 8:35 pm
Did you see the testimony by Melissa Seeback today on Wood Tv? She was CRYING….give me a break….I was laughing so hard….she was crying over the idea of leaving Quixtar..I bet they Amway/Scamway PAID her a lot of money for her drama and crying for her performance on the stand…..give me a break!
October 16th, 2007 at 8:42 pm
Brad #276,
Commentary? Go read the letter yourself. Plus, the purpose of any blog is to put in your commentary, why would someone post just to repeat facts already on the blog? Get a grip.
I don’t have to “twist” anything, Orrin and Co. are providing so much evidence, all I have to do is connect the dots with real facts, not “imaginary facts”, whatever that is.
Here’s my statement: If it was anything like what Quixtar claimed in his termination letter, it was something to the effect of, “You need to stop breaking the various rules over and over again. By growing right….” I said “something to the effect of” prior to the words, are you really that dense? If you are, please stay away from me, I don’t want to be sucked into a black hole, because that is REALLY dense.
If I truly wanted to move into the future with integrity, and with the Q/A business why not try truth and fact only, why always the vindictive, sarcastic, and demeaning attachments? —- Because this is how you treat lying cowardly “kingpins”, in order to clean the stables of all their “stuff”.
You’ve been asking questions trying to get answers about alot of things, hard work sifting through my redundant commentary on every single post? —- Whatever question you have, chances are very good it is directly connected to the tool scam. So ask questions, and I’ll tell you the answers.
I suspect flaming sarcasm and insults help shine the truth on an actual TEAM comment that may be getting to a lie.
Like my brilliant rebuttal to Mary Ann. She proved she is clueless. How did I know? It’s too soon, she’s still taking the test. Do you have a guess? I’ll give her a “lifeline” to get some help. Do answer, come back with an answer, Mary Ann is depending on you. How’s that for sarcastic?
You have yet to reply to my questions which I thought were fair. I wasn’t asking predetermined questions, I was asking to satisfy my curiosity. I would actually like to know some things, not just generate animosity and angry debate, fueled by massive speculation. —- Which questions? I’m certainly not going to waste my time sifting through all your posts.
cmon.people.think #277,
You’ll get an apology from me when it snows in you know where.
I already said I made a mistake, and thanked you for pointing it out. Get a grip.
October 16th, 2007 at 9:23 pm
As far as Mrs.Seeback getting paid to cry on the stand is ludicrouse. Did you ever think that maybe…. just maybe the team actually did suck hard earned money out of honest people and she just wanted others to be warned…..I have seen this couple on stage before, reaching some significant levels. therefore I come to the conclusion that the team is nothing more than an illusion of peoples hopes and dreams…
October 16th, 2007 at 9:38 pm
Mary Ann #278/9,
It’s a little difficult to answer when I censor you? Does this mean you’re back on answer “A”?
“Us” guys are really scared? That’s funny. Why don’t you go to this blog, and post in the top thread? http://ohana.lava.net/blogs/Joecool18 Your post will show up immediately, there is no moderator approval process.
Third post of yours censored?? You must be pulling our…I mean my, pulling my leg.
Yeah, real sloppy, I noticed it as well! —- Noticed what? You don’t have any specifics, either? That is just too funny.
Just wait, Tex will be gone and a new blogger, new name, will appear with the same nastiness as Tex. —- Why would I leave? Besides, I’m “irreplaceable”, not to mention highly paid, right?
Negative Nancy #280,
No, she was crying over the threat of Orrin and Co. destroying her Q business if she didn’t quit and join TEAM. That was pretty damning testimony. It figures an Orrinite would find this funny.
I doubt very much she was paid, it is against the law in most states to pay witnesses, unless they are an expert witness, which does not appear to be her role with her testimony.
I did notice Orrin had that silly smirk wiped off his face, he looks quite stressed. And he hasn’t even started arbitration, as far as I know. I can’t wait for tomorrow’s cross-examination testimony, he will probably get ripped to shreds by the Q lawyers, if his termination letter is accurate.
October 16th, 2007 at 9:40 pm
jas396 #293,
I came to that conclusion long ago, and TEAM is far from alone in that area. Have you seen the UK update? Looks like the tool scams are falling, slowly but surely.
October 16th, 2007 at 9:51 pm
dannie #278,
You know what Tex….just put it where the sun don’t shine. —- Only at night and cloudy days?
Just because I prefer to not go back thru the thousand postings you’ve made to find where I stated the point, does NOT mean it didn’t happen. —- What didn’t happen?
Just because you think saying it makes it so, does not mean that it does. —- I never said that, I back up my statements with facts.
Just because you are so bitter that you were too stupid to NOT know that money was made on tools ( for TWELVE years ). —- Actually, I had suspicions for several years, but the closed informational environment and a couple of medical emergencies broke up the time I could be active, so I was talked into the “do it all or it won’t work” garbage. But as they say, “People of integrity expect to be believed and when they’re not they let time prove them right.” That phrase is coming true at an accelerating rate, especially on days like today, with the UK and MI courtroom news.
I think TEAM will go away because of people like me and people like Melissa Seeback. That was POWERFUL testimony, regardless of what Negative Nancy thinks.
BTW, in case you can’t tell, this IS an insulting, sniping, snotty comment…
You started it when you called me clueless…I’m NOT the one who didn’t ask where the tool money came from and where it went…YOU ARE. So YOU get a clue ! —- You should have asked, the tool scam may have ended sooner.
Just because…yada yada yada yada.
October 16th, 2007 at 10:02 pm
Tex: I’ve already got a grip. So apologize for your rudeness.
October 16th, 2007 at 10:41 pm
When was Melissa Seeback on stages reaching high levels? I have never heard of her? We attend everything and are on those same stages as well…..no illusion here..just making lots of $$ and helping lots of others make lots of $$ too! I still think she was paid to cry…drama…drama…..
October 16th, 2007 at 10:59 pm
if quixtar is paying to tex to said nothing,they can paid to anyone!!
i never see a person fighting for the people,ORRIN & CHRISS A PROUD TO BE IN TEAM!!!
HISPANIC PEOPLE BUILDING ONE TEAM….
October 16th, 2007 at 11:02 pm
Alticor Media Blog Administrator YOUR grandmother sales AVON,SHE KNOW FROM YOU ALL THE BAD THING’S OF QUIXTAR……EVEN YOUR GRANDMOTHER RESIGN!!!
October 16th, 2007 at 11:05 pm
It`s a shame that anyone could cheat anyone in this world. but its really a shame when it`s people that are high up in a MLM company that you really believe in doing it. it makes me sick to think some one i trust would lie or cheat. think about that Negative Nancy. its nice to know that your more concerned with someone crying than whats really going on.
October 16th, 2007 at 11:35 pm
Look at this site. http://www.dsa.org/meetings/am07/am07.html
October 16th, 2007 at 11:53 pm
Dear Tex,
Thank you for getting back to me with the Quixtar/Amway corporate position on my questions. I will try to make my answers to your questions/comments less confusing and more direct.
1) I currently buy CDs for $7.50 each from a very large organization still at Quixtar/Amway and spend about $100 per month. I saw that TEAM CDs cost $6.00 each; the delta is $1.50 per CD. In limited quantities these CDs cost about $0.25 each, and much less in large volumes, so the profit is a least $7.25 per CD or about $87 per month per IBO. Multiply that by 100,000 active IBOs in the organization and 12 months, and you have $10.4M in profit. The leaders of the organization I buy from keep all of the profits for themselves. The TEAM leaders profit share with their organization. Then this is a bigger tool scam than TEAM; larger organization, higher prices, bigger profits, no profit sharing, and Quixtar/Amway still allows them to do it.
2) What tools does Quixtar/Amway sell? My bad, I was speaking of the business forms that were .pdf files on line that I could print, that now are being sold by Quixtar/Amway. So, if I do 30 plus one on ones per month, it would now cost me an additional $20+ per month for forms. At $0.01 per form to print in volume, that translates to $19.70+ per month profit which will go directly to Quixtar/Amway. Multiply that by 1,000,000 IBOs and 12 months, and you have $240M. That not only is a great profit source for one inexpensive document, you could almost pay all of the yearly IBO bonuses with it. Even cut in half, it is a bigger scam than tools!
3) If Quixtar/Amway “owns the rights to your business” as you stated, then how can you print this in the marketing materials? “Your life. Your business. Your way.” Sounds like a lie to me, it is not my business or my way if Quixtar/Amway own the rights to it. You also have to change IBO name because you are not truely “independent.”
4) The Quixtar/Amway lawyers claimed in the court documents that the LOS is Quixtar/Amway proprietary property, they are claiming ownership of the relationships I have, even those with my family and friends that I introduced and registered into Quixtar/Amway. If this is true and I quit, I need a signed non-solicitation legal agreement before I can talk to family or friends. This does not protect me, this is a load of legal (fill in the blank).
5) Regarding contract changes, in this state, contracts for credit cards, insurance, investments, businesses, etc. are required to provide written notification of any changes in the terms of the contract by mail (not by a magazine like Amway/Quixtar claims they did for me). Why did they add a non-compete and non-solicitation change this way? Were they trying to hid it?
6) In this state, non-compete terms in any contract or employment agreement are not legal or enforcable, unless the person on the contract/agreement sold a business for profit to the person/company the contract is with. To be frank, the wording in the non-compete and non-solicitation sections of the new contract is almost verbatum from old employment contracts. I did not register a business with Amway, I registered a business with Quixtar. Non-compete and non-solicitation clauses are JOB benefits, and have nothing to do with independance! “Your life. Your business. Your way.” Still sounds like a lie to me.
7) The National Enquirer makes many slanderous, libelous, and rediculous statements on the front page, and they are not being sued to silence. This is America, freedom of speech. We all have a right to an opinion. How is someone expressing an opinion on a blog about their experience going to damage Quixtar/Amway? The only reason Quixtar/Amway would sue to silence the bloggers is if Quixtar/Amway has something to hid, or they are trying to make the legal department a profit center.
Tex, I am not angry at you, I am angry myself, that I got duped by this scam. I have over 30 years of business experience and I did not see it. Any organization that no longer cares about their customers, and allows a legal department to manage their customer relationships is going out of business. A customer may not be right, but they are never wrong. As an IBO, and as a customer Quixtar, I feel totally abused by the treatment I am receiving from this organization. I’d definitely have more fun loosing my money in Las Vegas. I am done, good-bye.
Keep drinking the Active8!!!!!
October 16th, 2007 at 11:57 pm
cmon.people.think #287,
I’ll apologize when Orrin apologizes for his tool scam, for his “illegal pyramid” lawsuit, and reimburses me the full, original price for every tool I own or have ever payed for(including functions, travel, car rental, meals, airline tickets, and mileage), plus I keep the tools. I think you have a better chance of the known warm place freezing over or winning the lottery.
Negative Nancy #288,
Ignorance is bliss, isn’t it?
TEAM_MEX #289/90,
If you think Orrin is “fighting” for you, you are sadly mistaken.
Admin’s Grandmother sells Avon? You Orrinites should be proud of your “Southern TEAM”. Or are you Orrin’s lawyer?
life is what you make of it #291,
What did you expect? This is obviously typical of the Orrinite attitude, have you seen any of them put her in her place? No. Negative Nancy doesn’t care, she’s a true blue Orrinite.
October 17th, 2007 at 12:03 am
I am glad to see the lawsuit. People will be happy to post more things on different websites.
Also, its does not seem difficult to start another blog somewhere else.
October 17th, 2007 at 12:05 am
I am also suprised that quixtar has no problem with the bad reviews being shown on video sites. Wow, will they sue them also and those who post on that site too?
October 17th, 2007 at 12:08 am
I would rather be an “Orrinite” than an employee or getting paid by a pyramid schemer organization anyday.
October 17th, 2007 at 12:19 am
Hey negative Nancy, I thought Team was built on people with Integrity, you sure are cold, and bitter for a person who cares about people. And I saw her on stage, a major sem one of only two out of thousands to make Quad Power Player that’s pretty significant. So if you attended everything you would know that. And all that money your making, have fun scamming poor innocent people to fill your pocket book. I’m proud of Melissa Seeback for standing up for what’s right. A true person of Integrity…..So move along… funny your title is Negative Nancy, it sure fits you well.
October 17th, 2007 at 12:31 am
Captain #229,
Thanks for answering Tex for me I haven’t been on since my post (213-214).
I believe Q is doing its best to get rid of the North American IBOs so they can go straight to retail. Why else continue bringing it to the attention of the media after the CA was thrown into arbitration. Once it got to arbitration it would have been better for Q to shut up and let it die but no they need to pull this junk to bring it to the attention of ALL the media and blogs out there.
October 17th, 2007 at 12:49 am
Pa #292,
What about it?
G-Man #293,
Thanks for numbering your questions, it will make it easier to answer them.
1) You didn’t exactly ask a question, but I think several were implied. First, I think the cost to produce a CD is about $1, when you factor in labor, the recording and duplication equipment, editing, etc. But this still results in massive profits, and considers only the CD’s. There are also the books, opens, seminars, major conferences, voice mail, web sites, etc., that also produce additional MASSIVE profits. Also, your system will probably not be charging that amount in the near future, if the actions taken in the UK are brought to the US, which I expect will happen.
2) Which pdf’s did Q take away? If you mean the QBOB, you can reuse that, very few IBO’s do 30+ plans a month, and you get free ones when you sponor new IBO’s, which you certainly should be able to do with 30+ plans/month. These are high quality, high impact documents, and pale in comparison to the current tool scam. I doubt there is much profit in these.
3) It’s marketing. Marketers bend the truth all the time. If you can’t handle it, get out, but don’t expect the rest of the world to be any more fair or accurate. No business is 100% independent, it is another marketing term. It may change to ABO, as has been done in the UK.
4) Don’t be ridiculous. You can talk to your family and friends who are IBO’s, you just can’t solicit them for 2 years after you quit. This doesn’t mean if they ask you about your new business, that you can’t talk about it, you just can’t solicit them. It would be very difficult for Q to prove what actually happened in these circumstances, it would be much easier to prove if IBO’s you didn’t know well came into your new business. Even this would be hard to prove, and even Q has limited legal resources. Q won’t be interested in the small and random movement of IBO’s, they are much more concerned about the mass defections, such as what is going on with TEAM.
5) The business is not a credit card, insurance, investments, etc. You are also reminded every year at registration to read the rules, and you should review them for changes throughout the year. I agree a separate mailing would be much better, and Q could use the message box on the front page to make these types of notifications. They could also simplify the rules, and I have recommended all of the above to Q. However, the contact you signed acknowledged you are responsible for knowing about the rule changes. By the way, the magazines do come in the mail.
Why did they add a non-compete and non-solicitation change this way? Were they trying to hide it? —- I don’t think they were trying to hide it, they just aren’t very good at keeping us informed. Maybe the feedback on this blog will help them get the message. But part of the blame should be directed toward the upline as well, as they are supposed to be helping you, and could have easily made this part of their normal training process, and didn’t.
6) If you think the non-compete is not enforcable in your state, you can go to arbitration, if you desire to spend the time and money fighting it. Chances are the 6 month/2 year criteria will be easier, faster, and cheaper to comply with. If you can’t get over the name change or the 100% independent idea, you probably shouldn’t be an IBO. It isn’t for everyone.
7) The National Enquirer doesn’t have a reputation to protect, the more outrageous their comments are, the more magazines they sell. Any reasonable person realizes most of what is in that publication is garbage. You have freedom of speech, as long as you aren’t connected with Orrin and Co., because they are under a court order. But be aware there is a rule that says Quixtar doesn’t have to pay you QBI if you damage the reputation of the corp, and why would you want to do that if you’re an IBO?
I’m not angry with you, either. I am also disappointed in myself that I was duped, but the tool scam is a much larger problem than anything Q has done. The legal department must take the stage when the lawsuits are flying around, they will go more into the background when the current MI case is finished. It will get very quiet when the arbitration starts, but Orrin no doubt has plenty to worry about. So do the rest of the lying cowardly “kingpins”, whether they charge $6 or $7.50 for a CD, or even $2.50, as some organizations do, but they make up for it with $50/month web site charges. We have been ignored for a very long time, because the corp. was far too trusting of the IBOAI, who have proven themselves totally inept and much more interested in their tool scam than their IBO’s. I hope you ask for your $9 back and encourage other IBO’s to do the same.
Keep drinking the Active8????? —- Wasn’t this product dropped?
October 17th, 2007 at 12:55 am
Biten.in.the.rear.again #295-7,
Chomp, chomp, chomp.
jas396 #298,
You get a big DITTO from me regarding Negative Nancy.
Steve #299,
I’ll bet you haven’t read the lawsuit either, right? We will find out if Q is going the direct to retailer route, I think you’re full of hot air….and other stuff.
October 17th, 2007 at 3:42 am
Don’t check these blog sites out much as find it mostly just a lot of bickering back and forth.
Noticed on the AMWAY UK site though that some more DIAMONDS have been Terminated!!!Internatonal Business Systems (IBS) has also now been shut down…..Who will be next Tex? Maybe they should start with InterBIZ Business Systems in Canada or maybe they are already looking at it as well. Same as the UK - high prices for system ($120/month), Website - ($24.95)Kate-($14-41/month). How about functions?
This past weekend was InterBIZ -New Years Celebration. Used to be a three day affair for $180.00(had to pay full amount even for one day). It was changed to a two day event for $150. Their Diamond also put on a open showing of a DVD-movie called PASS-IT-ON (he had a 3 minute clip in it)and he said bring everybody to see it, (kids, aunts, uncles, grandparents, neighbours)didn’t have to be in the business and he charged $20 for this!!!(but he would supply the popcorn ) Needless to say my wife and I did not go……and our upline sent Kate’s out to the effect if you didn’t attend these life changing events that you’re probably not a leader….Oh well I guess it is what it is, but again I say hurrah for the UK and ROI and hopefully these BSM’s all get shut down…
October 17th, 2007 at 3:48 am
Tex,
Do you know where I can find the directly speaking 1 recording online (not just a transcript, but a MP3)? I found the second one and liked it a lot. I think anyone who doesn’t think the tool business is a large source of income for many IBO’s would find the directly speaking and also “an in-depth look at amway” site interesting. I still think you’re wrong on this being a tool issue, but there is for sure a tool issue. It’s funny some of the things you want to see changed like lower prices on tools and transparency with tool profit Team wanted to see changed to. Team wanted transparency and Orrin talked about halving cd prices and eventually making the continuing education audio’s available to download from a website as a MP3.
October 17th, 2007 at 7:29 am
Tex #273
Listen closely rhinestone cowboy! Everyone can see you have no clue about this business and the products. On any given day I can find a better non-quixtar per use price at the local grocery store. I did promote the most competitive products and spoke of the superior quality (as my upline had trained me). However, when nearly every product in the catalog is so over-priced common sense tells people this is a rip off! After that realization it’s not long before they quit purchasing products and have no desire to bring their friends into the foray…even people not participating in the training system. It is Quixtars problem that people don’t purchse products! The new IBO receives those ridiculous catalogs of over-priced products in the mail and stews over them before calling me in anger over the outrageous pricing. If Quixtar had truly well priced products, they would have a business opportunity…..right now with the ridiculously over priced products, they have a collapsing financial mill for the Van Andels and Devos families….
Think about it if the scam was in the tools Yeager would be a bigger billionaire than the Devos and Van Andel families. He doesn’t even make honorable mention in their financial circles! The milking of the money occurs at Amway!
This comment was meant to be a disparaging remark concerning “TEX”, because he ALWAYS has his facts wrong. With this post I am simply executing my 1st amendment rights!
October 17th, 2007 at 9:58 am
hey moderator why did you wipe my post off …… I didn’t say anything bad or improper — unless of course tex is your best friend.
October 17th, 2007 at 10:13 am
glenn: Which post are you looking for?
And in answer to your previous question, we generally approve most every comment on this blog, for better or worse. We monitor for spam, of course, and otherwise watch for language that is completely inappropriate.
Again, if we are missing one or more of your comments, feel free to resubmit and we’ll take a closer look. Thank you.
October 17th, 2007 at 10:19 am
TEAM MEX: Ease off the caps lock, please.
And please understand that the role of a blog administrator is to facilitate the conversation but otherwise not partake in it. You are welcome to direct your comments regarding the above blog post towards the author(s), the company in general as well as our comment posters.
Please feel free to ask questions if you need any clarification.
October 17th, 2007 at 10:57 am
moderator,
why no answer to # 14 ?
October 17th, 2007 at 11:16 am
Administrator, can I suggest a separate blog for Tex and those who wish to argue with him (albeit futilely)? And then prevent Tex from commenting on this one? As long as Tex is allowed on this, all you have are comments from people who actually want to say something, and Tex finding some way to argue, refute, or twist what they say.
There really is a good reason why Tex has been banned from so many other blogs–there is no free discourse when he is around!
This has become exceptionally tedious.
October 17th, 2007 at 12:16 pm
Canadian IBO #302,
I don’t know who is next, but most of them need to be hammered. Your pricing experience (and presumably the resulting profit) is similar to most of the others.
AEM #303,
I don’t know where a recording is available of the first tape. However, my former Diamond told me they were instructed by their upline in the mid 80’s to destroy any of these cassettes they came across. Also, the transcript looks accurate, it refers back to the first one and is similar in tone, content, etc.
Orrin was trying to deflect the problem from being his (tool scam) to Q (high product prices). Although things could be better with the product prices, Q has already taken some action, probably more to come if the UK can be used as a guide. Now it’s the lying cowardly “kingpins’” turn to make radical price reduction changes on the tool side. Orrin’s promises of lower CD costs probably would have been offset with higher web site costs and/or higher function costs. But now we’ll never know, because TEAM is thankfully GONE.
Amway realist #304,
Listen closely Amway realist! Everyone can see you have no clue about this business and the products. On any given day I can find a better quixtar per use price than the local grocery store. I promote the most competitive products and speak of the superior quality (as my upline did not train me). However, when nearly every product in the catalog is so over-priced common sense tells people this is a rip off, which is why I don’t use the catalogs! After that realization it’s not long before they continue purchasing products and have desire to bring their friends into the system…even people not participating in the training system. It is the lying cowardly “kingpins’” problem that people don’t purchse products! The new IBO receives those ridiculous catalogs of over-priced products in the mail and doesn’t stew over them before calling me, because I already went over the information about the outrageous pricing for some products. If Quixtar had truly well priced products across the board, they would have a better business opportunity…..right now with the some of the products being ridiculously over priced, they have a situation where the upline preaches 100% loyalty, which is merely a cover for the overpriced tools.
Think about it if the scam was in the tools Yager would be a bigger billionaire than the Devos and Van Andel families. —- Yager doesn’t have the volume A/Q has, he is only one part of the overall business.
He doesn’t even make honorable mention in their financial circles! —- Some of the milking of the money occurs at Amway, but the whole milk truck is the lying cowardly “kingpin” tool scams!
This comment was meant to be a disparaging remark concerning “Amway realist”, because he ALWAYS has his facts wrong. With this post I am simply executing my 1st amendment rights!
glenn #305,
Did they “wipe it off”, or just not post it yet? And to clarify Admin’s response in #306, I’m better, you’re worse. Of course, that is my factually based opinion.
dannie #308,
See #21.
October 17th, 2007 at 12:35 pm
LisBette #309,
Mission accomplished.
I would love to have a civil discourse with anyone on this site, as long as they are willing to discuss the facts, AND criticize others who get off track.
The problem with other blogs is I tried to stick to the facts, but the others kept making personal attacks, and nobody else told them to knock it off, so I had to defend myself.
For instance, what do you think of Negative Nancy’s comments regarding the woman who testified in court? Do you really believe she was faking the crying, do you believe she did it only because she was paid by Q to do that, or because she had chosen to stay with Q?
If you don’t push back on these types of comments, we can’t do as I propose above, because I will not be “Mr. Nice” while others try to use me as their doormat.
Some people think that if you are a Christian, for example, you should never say a bad thing to anyone, you should just “take it”, and allow others to use you as a doormat, and take advantage of that scenario. Read your Bible, even Jesus didn’t do that.
What say you, LisBette?
October 17th, 2007 at 12:58 pm
Tex #310
Bravo! Bravo! Milli Vanilli! I commend you! Nobody could have proven my point better! Not one true fact in your whole post supporting your stance. Well, it does prove your lack of a stance! Your answer once again proves my point, the products are overpriced (”because I already went over the information about the outrageous pricing for some products”)! “Cowardly Kingpins” How can someone be cowardly if they are posting their profit sharing numbers? How can someone be cowardly if they readily tell you the CD’s don’t cost $6 bucks to make?….
If the scam was in the tools the money would be in the tools! Not in the founding families bank account! Understand simple econonies Tex, the milk truck owner doesn’t make the money…the person selling the milk makes the money! The founding families are selling the milk!
Man, wake up! You don’t know what you are talking about and you can only copy paste a reply! Now go ahead and copy paste your answer cowboy!
This comment was meant to be a disparaging remark concerning “Tex”, because he ALWAYS has his facts wrong. With this post I am simply executing my 1st amendment rights!
October 17th, 2007 at 1:06 pm
Tex,
When I want YOUR answer to a question, I’ll address the question to YOU !
Did the moderator ASK you to respond for him/her ?
Unless, of course, you ARE the moderator
And your answer (#21) is NOT an answer…it’s your off the wall supposition. You’re so great at spouting facts, give THEM to us…not your best guess.
October 17th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
Tex,
I don’t think tool prices should be lowered just so that the profit from tools is less than the profit from retail however…
It would be nice if there was some way for IBOs to present a united front toward mandatory and regular disclosure of tool profits from all orgs including Quixtar direct tools. Then the IBO can make an informed decision on the value of the tools he is purchasing for himself or his/her group and also be free to opt for less expensive materials through Quixtar or through the new BSM line you plan to design.
I don’t think the IBOAI board is an effective route though.
Now might be a good time for you to organize a united effort toward this cause. I don’t think the average IBO really thought too much about this until now. They may not really care either, who knows? I think it is a good cause and the time is ripe for sure.
It would be interesting to see who really doesn’t want these figures disclosed. Quixtar, the big pins or both. It seems to me that if Quixtar wanted it disclosed, they would have already forced the disclosure. Do you agree?
October 17th, 2007 at 1:18 pm
TEX #294 said:
I’ll apologize when Orrin apologizes for his tool scam, for his “illegal pyramid” lawsuit, and reimburses me the full, original price for every tool I own or have ever payed for(including functions, travel, car rental, meals, airline tickets, and mileage), plus I keep the tools.
Hey Tex,
Thats odd if the tools are such a scam and lack value why would you want to keep them?
AND, why do you have any tools if they are such a scam? Why did you go to any functions? We had a choice to buy or not to buy tools and go to functions? Orrin didn’t forcibly take your credit card, and he clearly did not forcibly make you listen to the CD’s.
October 17th, 2007 at 1:22 pm
This is to Negative Nancy - I happen to know Melissa Seeback personally. She approached me to get into the business with her but I chose not to. As she went up the ladder more and more was revealed to her. She started realizing stuff and was concerned. She was very upset when it all came down and she was asked to testify. She consulted me on the matter. In the end, she was very brave to have decided to go ahead with it, but it took a tremendous toll on her, physically, mentally, spiritually . . . these were good friends of hers, she had made and she had to tesify against them because in the end, right won in her conscious. I am proud of her for testifying. I know how much she had hoped for success with the biz and how heartbroken she was when it did not turn out to be the case. I also know that she and her husband were on stage about a year ago for something, because it was around the time they got married, they announced their marriage on the stage that day. She told me about it. Anyway, I came to look because she was very upset about your post about her. She saw it. I know for a fact she was not paid and you should be sued for slander for saying she was. There is a word for people like you - But I’m Too Courteous, Hun.
October 17th, 2007 at 1:22 pm
LisBette #309 says:
Administrator, can I suggest a separate blog for Tex and those who wish to argue with him (albeit futilely)? And then prevent Tex from commenting on this one? As long as Tex is allowed on this, all you have are comments from people who actually want to say something, and Tex finding some way to argue, refute, or twist what they say.
I agree with you LisBette, especially since every topic is the tools and not the actual issue at hand.
October 17th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
Amway realist #312,
All I did was change a few words around, so if I had no facts, neither did you. My answer disproved your point, because only SOME of the products are overpriced. Where are the profit sharing numbers posted?
Post your numbers, and it will be obvious the money is in the tools. The milk truck owner makes money, they distibute the milk, much like the lying cowardly “kingpins” distribute information, but they charge outrageous prices for that information.
Man, wake up! You don’t know what you are talking about and I can only copy paste a reply to prove you wrong! So I went ahead and copy pasted my answer Amway realist!
This comment was meant to be a disparaging remark concerning “Amway realist”, because he ALWAYS has his facts wrong. With this post I am simply executing my 1st amendment rights!
dannie #313,
I’ll respond to whatever post I want to, thank you very much.
Did the moderator ASK you to respond for him/her? Unless, of course, you ARE the moderator. —- That’s it, I put my boots on when I’m Tex, and put a suit and tie on when I’m the Admin. Sometimes I wear both. (Negative Nancy, I’m just kidding, just in case you haven’t finished your “test” yet. Beside, it’s after 12 o’clock noon in the Central and Eastern Time Zones, so answers “C” and “D” aren’t looking too good right now. Guess which answer is left? You have one more “lifeline”, perhaps dannie can help you.) Why don’t you remind Orrin’s lawyer of this issue? I’m sure he’ll be all over it, he’s just been busy in the MI court lately. Put the question on freetheibo, I’m sure it will get the attention it deserves. This isn’t Q’s legal issue to deal with, it’s Orrin’s. Go bark up the right tree.
And your answer (#21) is NOT an answer…it’s your off the wall supposition. You’re so great at spouting facts, give THEM to us…not your best guess. —- See above. Find out the facts with Orrin’s crack legal TEAM.
DLSChicago #314,
I don’t think tool prices should be lowered just so that the profit from tools is less than the profit from retail however… —- I think the tool profit should be less than Q profit, or like Rich said in 1983, you’re in the tool business, not the A/Q business.
It would be nice if there was some way for IBOs to present a united front toward mandatory and regular disclosure of tool profits from all orgs including Quixtar direct tools. Then the IBO can make an informed decision on the value of the tools he is purchasing for himself or his/her group and also be free to opt for less expensive materials through Quixtar or through the new BSM line you plan to design. —- That would be okay with me, but the upline and corp have not done much over the years to stay in contact with us, they just talk with each other.
I don’t think the IBOAI board is an effective route though. —- Totally agree.
Now might be a good time for you to organize a united effort toward this cause. I don’t think the average IBO really thought too much about this until now. They may not really care either, who knows? I think it is a good cause and the time is ripe for sure. —- There are things happening, but the “no crosslining” rule abuse makes this difficult, at best.
It would be interesting to see who really doesn’t want these figures disclosed. Quixtar, the big pins or both. It seems to me that if Quixtar wanted it disclosed, they would have already forced the disclosure. Do you agree? —- I don’t know what to believe, as Q has not answered this direct question, which I have asked on a number of occasions.
Let’s assume Q told upline not to disclose tool profits (as Ron Simmons and Chuck Goetschel have stated), does this give upline the right to keep the prices high and produce MASSIVE tool profits?
On the other hand, I have been told Legacy used to be willing to give out tool profits, if asked. However, when I called them, they directed me to TEAM, who directed me to my upline, who gave me the runaround. I have also seen other posters state TEAM put out the numbers at a recent major conference, but when they are asked to post what they saw and heard, they don’t answer the question.
October 17th, 2007 at 2:08 pm
Duckpond #315,
The tools are good, the prices aren’t.
I didn’t realize the scam until much later.
You had a choice to buy the tools, but if you didn’t buy them, you were basically shut out. I say that from personal experience. Does that sound “optional” to you?
Lee #316,
Well said, especially the last sentence. If we had more folks on this blog like yourself, we could crowd out the Orrinites to little squeaks on the edges of the discussions.
Duckpond #317,
That’s the point, there is such MASSIVE tool profit, that virtually EVERY topic is directly or indirectly related to the tool scam.
October 17th, 2007 at 2:14 pm
Tex #260 “The prices result in MASSIVE profits that are not shared with prospects and IBO’s.” — Ah, but the profits *are* shared with IBOs.
G #259 “Captain, don’t feel bad - you’re not the first to have missed the link.”
Tex #264 “He’s also not the first to comment on the lawsuit without reading it.”
The first thing I did was read the lawsuit before making any comment on it.
Tex #263 “There is no additional or new suit, just the one mentioned above.” — The suit mentioned above names Quixtar as the plaintiff and 30 John Does as defendants - Woodward is not mentioned. If the news story is about this case, then why was Woodward in court yesterday (as he will be again today) as described in this updated article?
http://www.woodtv.com/Global/story.asp?s=7220519
Tex #282 “why always the vindictive, sarcastic, and demeaning attachments? —- Because this is how you treat lying cowardly “kingpins”, in order to clean the stables of all their “stuff”.” — Ah, but it is not the “kingpins” you are treating this way.
Tex #284 “No, she was crying over the threat of Orrin and Co. destroying her Q business if she didn’t quit and join TEAM. That was pretty damning testimony.” — C’mon! That doesn’t even make sense! Why would TEAM threaten *anyone* to leave Q when (prior to August 9) TEAM was there to *promote* Q? Yes, I read the article, and I still say that testimony makes no sense.
October 17th, 2007 at 2:21 pm
Tex #311 “The problem with other blogs is I tried to stick to the facts, but the others kept making personal attacks” — OMG!!! Thanks Tex!! I needed that laugh!
Your “facts,” buddy, are so far from the truth that you can’t see you’re living in your own little reality.
And, you call others on making personal attacks?! That’s precious!
October 17th, 2007 at 2:45 pm
Now everyone sees the real reason Tex keeps getting banned from other blogs/forums. He redirects every discussion into his pet peeve of tools and the LCK (lying cowardly kingpins). Then the discussion becomes focused on Tex and his obsessive need to reply to EVERY single post.
Has there been any more news on the suit against the 30 John Does? I still don’t like the idea of pursuing bloggers, but if it looks like Orrin and company are trying to circumvent a court order then it has to be investigated. You gotta admit the timing of the blogs springing up is really compelling.
October 17th, 2007 at 3:19 pm
Thank you Lee. I agree, Melissa has every right to tell her story without people disparaging her for it. I’m wondering though when the paper said one of “his” associates, does that mean one of Orrin’s assistants or is it referring to someone from Melissa’s upline?
October 17th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
Melissa Seeback
post#316
well melissa always cry?
how many money they get to cry??
10k-20k???
come on,think big you never has the vision of the future of team…..my vision is…you cant live whit this..anyway you gonna quit….
GOD BLESS
YOU.. GLAD NOT BE IN YOUR LITTLE GROUP
October 17th, 2007 at 3:50 pm
The Blogger Formerly Known As Captain #320,
What facts do I have wrong?
I offered a truce. If it is refused, the “bombing” will continue.
October 17th, 2007 at 3:57 pm
Renshi #321,
As I said before, tell me of an issue related to A/Q, and I will tell you how it is affected, either directly or indirectly, by the tool scam. Chances are very high there is a tie-in, because of the MA$$IVE amount of tool profits.
October 17th, 2007 at 4:13 pm
#322 - Renshi-D
The reason all the blogs sprung up after August 9th was that a lot of people are angry at the way Quixtar has handled the whole situation. I for one have a blog (an excellent one, I might add) that was started by me of my own volition, because I am disgusted at the way the company I used to defend has treated me and other loyal IBOs. I don’t think Orrin even knows I have started that blog, although I think he would enjoy it if he did.
Tex, civil discourse? From you? Now that IS funny. As for Jesus, well, He’s gotta be shaking His head about now.
October 17th, 2007 at 4:28 pm
Tex #325
“The Blogger Formerly Known As Captain #320,
What facts do I have wrong?
I offered a truce. If it is refused, the “bombing” will continue.”
Well, when talked to in a civil manner, I am more likely to reply in a civil manner.
As such, I will be the first to admit that I might have missed something. I don’t see how your question “What facts do I have wrong?” is relevant to my reply #320. Not saying that it isn’t - just point out what I’m missing, please.
Similarly, your statement that “I offered a truce” … I must have missed that, too. Please accept my apologies and point me in the right direction.
Thanks.
October 17th, 2007 at 4:48 pm
Zounds! A lot goin’ on since last I visited…
#320 Captain said, “Why would TEAM threaten *anyone* to leave Q when (prior to August 9) TEAM was there to *promote* Q?”
Are you aware that Orrin was meeting with Quixtar and presented them with an “amicable separation agreement” on August 9th? He wanted to shorten the non-compete time to December 31st and Quixtar didn’t agree. So they terminated him, and his buddies, and then Orrin whipped out a premeditated, pre-written bogus lawsuit claiming the Quixtar was an illegal business.
Orrin and Gang were planning to leave Quixtar and take the LOS with them. So yes, I can see how “TEAM [would]threaten *anyone* to leave Q”
He was *never* “promoting Q”. Remember, Q was just a supplier, just a partner store, as far as he was concerned. TEAM was the *real* business.
October 17th, 2007 at 4:51 pm
#322 Renshi,
The tool issue is Tex’s “pet peeve”?
Um…think it’s a bit more than one guy’s “pet peeve”.
October 17th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
#309 LisBette
If you have such an issue with the guy, then why do you keeping engaging him?
It’s hard for him to argue if there is no one with whom to argue.
Yes?
October 17th, 2007 at 5:31 pm
The Blogger Formerly Known As Captain #320,
Fine, I didn’t understand that you didn’t understand there is no “new” lawsuit, and thought you hadn’t read the original one with the 30 in it.
Orrin was in court because he is a key witness. The suit is against the 30 so Q can get permission from the court to go back to the blog companies and get the names of the 30.
DLSChicago #323,
This is much more than “…Melissa has every right to tell her story….”, it was testimony given under oath. If she lies, she commits perjury, and can be criminally punished for doing that.
What is the difference between “one of Orrin’s assistants or is it referring to someone from Melissa’s upline?”
LisBette #327,
Sounds like you have turned down the truce offer. So be it.
I think Jesus is shaking his head at a lot of things, especially Orrin.
The Blogger Formerly Known As Captain #328,
Apparently, another message got approved, the correct reference is now #321. For the truce offer, see #311.
Bridgett #329/30/31,
Exactly, plus Orrin didn’t want to even listen to the rules he was breaking and how to fix them, because he had already decided to leave. I heard the same garbage at the Opens and Seminar I attended regarding TEAM, and not hearing Quixtar a single time. Several Opens, an entire Seminar. Not ONCE.
Thanks for your support in the tool scam not being only my pet peeve.
I could make a go of arguing with myself, but you guys are far more entertaining. I couldn’t make up some of the stuff you come up with, it’s amazing.
October 17th, 2007 at 5:35 pm
Bridgett,
There is quite a leap from Orrin wanting to leave Q/A to your assertion that others would be “threatened” to leave. If you read the proposed terms presented to Q/A, you will notice that what was suggested was to give people a CHOICE. I’m also confused at the reference to TEAM threatening anyone. Even if there were some random former IBO that would try to coerce someone else to leave, how is the action of that person the responsibility of TEAM as a whole? Are you responsible for whatever idiotic move might be made by some other ABO while building their business? It isn’t like the TEAM office pulled a Q/A move and sent out some threatening/intimidating e-mail.
October 17th, 2007 at 5:48 pm
Hey Tex …
You are aware that Q offers both business support materials (BSMs) and product support materials (PSMs)? Catalogs, brochures, CDs, DVDs, samples and sample kits - you name it.
You are aware that you, as an IBO, have to pay for these tools? You are aware that the company never comes right out and states that they make a profit on these tools? (But, you’d be a fool if you assumed that they didn’t, and they’d readily admit that they do if asked - through they wouldn’t reveal how much.) You are aware, based on the prices I’ve seen, that these tools must generate MA$$IVE profits for the company?
You are aware that the purchase of these tools is optional, but if you opted not to and asked the sales department for assistance in promoting the business opportunity or products, they would simply suggest you buy their BSM? (I know this from personal experience.)
You are aware that there is no PV/BV associated with these tools, so you don’t share in the profit that the company makes with the tools? You are aware that the company doesn’t disclose the amount of profit they make from the tools?
OMG, TEX! Q HAS ITS *OWN* “TOOLS SCAM!”
October 17th, 2007 at 5:58 pm
I didn’t accuse Melissa of perjury. I said she has a right to tell her story without being accused of being bought by Quixtar.
I guess what I was trying to find out is who said this to her- someone in her upline?
Shouldn’t Quixtar be suing the person who said it to her instead of Orrin?
October 17th, 2007 at 6:04 pm
Tex,
Can you explain how cross-lining abuse would prevent you from gathering a consensus of IBOs to push for tool profit transparency? I thought cross lining had to do with product selling between groups.
October 17th, 2007 at 7:32 pm
Tex,
First off, the only “hornet’s nest” that Orrin started was the one caused by attempting to discuss with Alticor the things that would make Quixtar be more of a viable business; this apparently was unacceptable to Alticor, I presume because it would take away some of their pocket money.
Secondly, I would have to say that Alticor does not want Doug because they can no longer tolerate anyone that exhibits honesty, integrity, character, loyalty and a caring for people.
October 17th, 2007 at 7:51 pm
Tex 310
Thank you for your help with the directly speaking audio. I’ll read the transcript at take it at it’s word.
Let me help you out on a couple of points. .
“Orrin was trying to deflect the problem from being his (tool scam) to Q (high product prices)”. It’s not possible to deflect a problem you don’t have.
“Orrin’s promises of lower CD costs probably would have been offset with higher web site costs and/or higher function costs. But now we’ll never know, because TEAM is thankfully GONE”. Orrin didn’t make any promises about that. And no this would not have meant higher prices on other items. You may not know but all changes on Team go through the PC, not just Orrin.
October 17th, 2007 at 8:15 pm
LisBette Says “…give tex his own blog…”
Are you nuts? That’s what this clown wants! You’re confusing tex with someone with a legitimate beef.
October 17th, 2007 at 8:27 pm
hey tex I see you are still on here and still have no clue …. if this is your form of entertainment then it’s no wonder you never built a business. Get a life, get a clue, you are very old news with a very weak argument. Now please go to your mom’s basement and eat your cookies.
October 17th, 2007 at 8:38 pm
#336 DLSChicago
The term “cross-lining” refers to even TALKING to other groups about HOW they build their business–whether directly or indirectly.
The idea is that a cross-line IBO does not have a financial interest in your business, so why would you listen to a word they say?
Upline say the reason why cross-lining (even within the same LOA) should be avoided is because nothing good comes from it. It leads to confusion and ultimate destruction of your business (an upline has never said these words “ultimate destruction of your business” to me, but has used less dramatic words to say the same thing–crosslining would hurt the growth of my business and cause it to possibly go backwards.)Even hanging out socially in non-business settings is strongly discouraged.
“Iron sharpens iron” but better in “controlled” situations.
As evident by the 4,000+ posts on this blog since August, “protecting” your IBOs from “crosslining” can also hide some serious issues that an upline/LOA is teaching/doing.
October 17th, 2007 at 8:48 pm
#333 whatever said, “There is quite a leap from Orrin wanting to leave Q/A to your assertion that others would be “threatened” to leave.”
I didn’t make the assetion. I told Captain that I can see (believe) that Melissa had been threatened. Which, by the way, she communicated under oath in a court room.
I’m makin’ that leap.
October 17th, 2007 at 8:51 pm
#334 Captain,
If you choose not to buy/use Quixtar’s BSMs and PSMs (did you make up this term?) does Quixtar tell you that you’ll never make it to Platinum?
October 17th, 2007 at 8:53 pm
The Blogger Formerly Known As Captain #334,
Yes, I know Q offers various tools.
I’m aware these tools are much lower cost and IBO’s are not expected to purchase several every week.
There is no rule that Q is required to help you, but there is one for your sponsor and Platinum.
I know there is currently no PV/BV, but there has been BV in the past, and it could happen again.
You said nothing I didn’t already know, but thanks for trying.
OMG, CAPTAIN! Q HAS A REAL TOOL BUSINESS, NOT A TOOLS SCAM!
DLSChicago #335,
I didn’t accuse you of saying Melissa committed perjury. I said she did much more than tell her story. People can say virtually whatever they want on this blog, but it is much more serious in a courtroom, and others have made fun of her testimony. The comment wasn’t directed at you, it was directed at the others who accused her of all kinds of motivations when giving her testimony. I just wanted to state how much more important words in a courtroom are than words in a blog.
I assume it was someone in her upline, otherwise it would be considered by TEAM as cross-lining. Plus, the relationship she had with her upline was probably stronger than cross-line, and was in a better position to give up her Q business for the TEAM “business”.
Quixtar isn’t suing Orrin in this lawsuit, he was a witness. Q is trying to find out who the 30 are, Orrin may be one of the 30, but more likely he would have encouraged/supported some or all of the 30 with their blogs/youtubes garbage.
DLSChicago #336,
You identified the real cross line rule, but upline typically gets carried away with the cross-lining issue, and cross-line IBO’s aren’t supposed to even be around each other unless the upline is present, in many cases.
This makes IBO’s very reluctant to work together in this manner. It would be considered taboo by the upline to participate in something like this.
The main reason the “no cross-lining” rule is so strongly emphasized is to keep cross line IBO’s from sharing how much money they are losing in the tool scam.
When you combine this with the “no negative downline”, you essentially isolate each IBO from useful tool scam information.
When they complain to their upline, the upline is instructed by their upline to steer clear of this IBO, they must not be a “team player”.
Thus, the typical IBO in this situation simply “dies on the vine” and eventually quits, just like the upline wants them to do.
I bumped into a former cross-line IBO a few months ago, and he told me how he was told by our upline (this was several years ago) that we were getting too close and friendly with each other. We had known each other for years prior to getting involved in the business, worked at the same place, etc.
October 17th, 2007 at 9:11 pm
#334 Captain:
If you’re calling Quixtar Customer Support and asking them to hold your hand and tell you how to sell your products they will, of course, offer what ever assistance they can. However, it’s your sponsor’s job to train you. (Instead of training people to retail, TEAM was training thier dowline to build a nice little pyramid.) Customer Support is not out there in the field selling these products and can only provide limited assistance.
Quixtar’s “BSMs” are not required, just like BSMs from an LOA. However, Quixtar won’t leave you high and dry if you don’t purchase materials from them.
October 17th, 2007 at 9:48 pm
Now that I’ve seen the videos, I’m positive that this is not the John Doe case.
October 17th, 2007 at 10:10 pm
Tex:
You said to me: “I’ll apologize when Orrin apologizes for his tool scam, for his “illegal pyramid” lawsuit, and reimburses me the full, original price for every tool I own or have ever payed for(including functions, travel, car rental, meals, airline tickets, and mileage), plus I keep the tools. I think you have a better chance of the known warm place freezing over or winning the lottery”
But all I had asked for was an apology from you for critisicing my one typo. How is this related to Orrin and the tool scam? What a shining example of integrity you are, Tex!
BTW: You DO realize you made a SPELLING ERROR. Payed? Not quite a typo, now is it? Maybe your keys are stuck again, huh?
October 17th, 2007 at 11:04 pm
#347 cmon.people.think
Your comments are getting boring. Is this all you have to contribute to the discussion?
October 17th, 2007 at 11:08 pm
“I’ll apologize when Orrin apologizes for his tool scam, for his “illegal pyramid” lawsuit, and reimburses me the full, original price for every tool I own or have ever payed for(including functions, travel, car rental, meals, airline tickets, and mileage), plus I keep the tools. I think you have a better chance of the known warm place freezing over or winning the lottery”
You have to take responsibility for your life. There would first need to be a tool scam with Team for anybody from Team to apologize for it. You went to some team opens and a seminar, did you rent a car for these things? or fly a plane? or drive? How much money could you have possiblty lost if you only went to one seminar and a few opens? You said you were buying tools for 12 years, and you only went to one seminar? The point is, at some point you gotta get over blaming other people and move on with your life. You can be absorbed by what happened to you or you can be absorbed by what you’re going to make happen for you. That’s not a quote, just my personal feelings.
October 17th, 2007 at 11:24 pm
Bridgett,
There are only two people that truly know what, if any, threat was made. I can’t say it wasn’t made. I just see no logical reason why it would be. You neglected to address the rest of my comment…
I’m also confused at the reference to TEAM threatening anyone. Even if there were some random former IBO that would try to coerce someone else to leave, how is the action of that person the responsibility of TEAM as a whole? Are you responsible for whatever idiotic move might be made by some other ABO while building their business? It isn’t like the TEAM office pulled a Q/A move and sent out some threatening/intimidating e-mail.
October 18th, 2007 at 12:22 am
#350 & #333 Whatever,
Threats, to mean anything to someone, would be coming from Upline (threats from downline, crossline, and non-IBOs, wouldn’t have any affect someone, since you follow your Upline, not your downline or crossline or non-IBOs in your life).
#298 jas396 said that he saw Melissa “on stage, a major sem one of only two out of thousands to make Quad Power Player.”
Now I have no idea what a Quad Power Player is, but I believe it has something to do with her success of getting people “on system”. And if she was only one of two out of thousands, then it means she was high in the ranks.
And so if she were high up, a leader, then her Upline would be even more “high up”, more of a “leader”.
Not a “random former IBO” as you say.
I didn’t respond to this paragraph of yours the first time, to save you some embarrassment. My bad.
October 18th, 2007 at 12:36 am
The Law suit (please correct me if I am wrong) is mainly about people quitting Q/A - the bad - damaging statements made on the 30 site.
All this started with a original law suit in August.
Let me get a few facts for the people that did not get this e-mail from Q?A
I did not know about the law suit until I was sent this E-mail. The I looked at Alticorr’s site and read Just GO TEAM! The only one that told me to Quit was Q/A and now they want to a Law suit get real and the main people you should blame works for Q/A.
To Team affiliated IBOs
What Team has taught you regarding business building may put you at legal and regulatory risk – but we can help
We are in an exciting period in the history of this business. We are making unprecedented investments to make your businesses better – more than $60 million in new money in Quixtar Business Incentives, launch of training to help make IBOs more successful, and exciting new product and category launches. Overall, the Company is spending more than $200 million in product development, brand building, training and compensation enhancements to make this business bigger and more successful than ever.
We also are taking steps to address issues that have plagued our business and hampered our success, which is why we are contacting you today.
After working with Team training organization founders, Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady, on issues related to the teaching by the organization on positioning of the business as the Team opportunity, the practice of “stacking,” or inappropriate depth-building, the use of unauthorized business support materials, and because they told Company executives that they intend to begin soliciting IBOs to join their new competing MLM, the Company has terminated Woodward and Brady’s Quixtar businesses. These issues put the Company and IBOs at serious and immediate risk of legal and regulatory actions and needed to cease immediately. And, we should note that no IBO has left Amway or Quixtar and successfully launched a competing business. Moreover, they, together with other Team, Legacy and Team 5K IBOs plan to file a class action lawsuit in Federal Court against Quixtar.
Quixtar recently provided an opportunity for Woodward and Brady to work with the Company to cure their contract breaches, but they were unwilling to even listen to the plan. The Company now finds Woodward and Brady to be in default of their agreement with the Company and, as a result, their businesses were terminated.
Quixtar acknowledges that the vast majority of IBOs affiliated with Team have conducted their businesses as taught by the Team organization. As a result, there are Team-related IBOs who do not have an accurate understanding of the importance of positioning the business properly with prospects and building depth within the Rules. We can help you through that.
Quixtar remains committed to the support of all IBOs and will work with those who agree to abide by the Company’s rules and maintain high ethical standards. That includes all Team-affiliated IBOs who wish to continue building their Quixtar businesses in compliance with the rules and by correcting positioning and stacking behaviors.
We hope you accept our invitation to remain a valued and productive member of the Quixtar business. We will be following up with more information soon and encourage you to call your Quixtar Sales Advisor with any questions.
Sincerely,
Jim Payne
Executive Vice President and Managing Director
Quixtar Inc.
This message is being sent to you as an important Quixtar Business communication.
Will Q/A pay my upline Direct for all the IBO’s that quit because this site advertising - telling everyone where to look - at the negative info? Q/A’s bad PR is the one responsible for all of his lost income.
October 18th, 2007 at 12:40 am
Yes, I know that I made several errors but I hope that you will be able to understand what I was trying to say
October 18th, 2007 at 12:52 am
I have noticed that several of my past post have never gotten posted and all my post have the statement “Your comment is awaiting Moderation”. Moderator please are you afraid of a few questions that I wanted someone - anyone - even Moderator TEX - to answer.
NOT ONE of my Posts insulted a person yet I was and continue to be sensored.
October 18th, 2007 at 2:03 am
Moderator
Thank you for posting my all my post today.
Tex about the web site that I ask people to look at. Please go back to it and really look at that site. Who is that site for and who are the sponsors of this site?
October 18th, 2007 at 2:22 am
Thank you for posting what I typed in 352, 353, 354, 355 and 356 - yes it took me over 2 hours to type them. I am a quad - I fell of a roof in 2003. I had over a million in medical bills and still have over 100k in medical bills almost every year. I am not able to do the work that I did for over 30 years - general contract work. I planned on income as an IBO to pay for all my medical bills and give me an extra 100k spending money after taxes but Q you are the reason that I now have to look for something else. Please fix your PR program. Fire the people that are responsible for the e-mails you sent to me, my children, their down-line, my down and my down-line’s down-line. They then sent this info - the info you sent out to several hundred people and you have not sent anything to us that even looked like a way to fix the so called problems. Then you told them where to look for Q price to Wal-Mart price and 29 other web sites.
October 18th, 2007 at 7:18 am
tex #318
Now you cannot be so clueless to realize if you change the words of a sentence you change the meaning….I would have to assume your intent with changing the words was to change the meaning???? Therefore, you are without fact! Have you looked up the word “some”? It could be mean nearly every product is over priced! Which I firmly believe has some truth!
Now lets look at your beloved tool scam crap! The Devos and Van Andel families make billions off the backs of the IBO-fact! You claim all the money is in the tools-your fact! So, if the “cowardly kingpins” are making all the money then they should be making billions! If your statement that all the money is in the tools is true…..then where did all the money in the product go? Tex, if you will open your dust clouded mind for a moment you will see….all the product profit lands in the founding families pocket, not the IBO! To the tune of billions!!!! The tool profits land in the IBO’s pockets, not anywhere near a billion!!!
This comment was meant to be a disparaging remark concerning “tex”, because he ALWAYS has his facts wrong. With this post I am simply executing my 1st amendment rights!
October 18th, 2007 at 9:07 am
#352 Pa:
People didn’t quit because of Q/A PR. They quit because they’re sheep. Followers.
Good luck w/the Leadership Development thing. Sounds like most of you need it.
October 18th, 2007 at 9:49 am
Girlpower,
It must truly be a gift for you to know the motivation behind decisions made by thousands of people you don’t even know. Were you born omniscient…or did you grow into it?
Anyway, thanks for the well wishes.
October 18th, 2007 at 10:00 am
Bridgett,
I guess I agree with what you posted, but I’m not sure how it answers the question I asked. Is someone hundreds of people higher than you in your LOS somehow responsible for something you do or say on your own when dealing with someone below you? I guess I’m also confused as to what the nature of the “threat” could be. Does someone higher in your LOS really hold any significant power over you? It isn’t like an employer/employee relationship.
October 18th, 2007 at 10:11 am
#358 GirlPower “People didn’t quit because of Q/A PR.” — Wow. I’m impressed by your astounding insight. Your impeccable perception. Your ability to cut to the chase.
Too bad the majority of those that quit disagree with you. Which means your insight, perception and abilities come straight from LA-LA Land.
October 18th, 2007 at 10:22 am
GirlPower #352
Believe what you or Q* wants you to believe. We are all leaving or have already left because of the very immature way that Q* has handled this entire situation. Not once has Team put out negative press. People talking on forums or blogs don’t count. They are all individuals that are speaking their minds. Team, as a company, nor any of those involved in the original lawsuit, issued any statements to the press or local news regarding the situation. We received notification of the “termination” of Woodward and Brady from Q*. Q* started the bad PR from day one and haven’t stopped. They are the only ones that are to blame here for the negative.
Tex: Get a life!
If you are so naive to think that there is not a profit made from tools, then there is something seriously wrong with you. Everything you buy, every penny you spend, anywhere, is making a profit for someone. Heck, even working (if you do), is making money for someone else.
We have never, ever, been told that we HAVE to purchase tools. Yes, they helped with building the business, our relationships and just plain old teaching leadership skills, that aren’t taught in school or on the job. Yes, you can buy those books somewhere else, in fact, we did buy a lot of them through B & N, and earned PV/BV on the purchase. We bought what was considered the Top 5 books and many that were mentioned at seminars or open meetings. If they had not been promoted by the leaders, we never would have known what book to pick out of the hundreds of thousand books available. 99% of the books that we read are books that were recommended by someone else.
Does it bother us to pay the prices we pay for tools? No! IT IS A CHOICE. We signed up when we were ready, adjusted what we needed to, and have gone on from there. Never has our being on system or not being on system, stopped our upline from helping us out.
Q* wants Team to Just GO. We are and now they are upset about that. They are upset over the negative press (their own doing) and want to sue John Doe for comments made on blogs and forums. What about Altiors own blog? There is more negative, nasty, downright offensive garbage on this site about Woodward and Team then we have seen anywhere about Q*. Guess they need to bring a lawsuit against themselves!
October 18th, 2007 at 11:43 am
How many of you resigned your Q business before Orrin went wonky? Once he cried “high prices” you all cried “high prices”. Once he cried “non-compete is not legal” you all cried it. Yeah, there’s a trend there.
You can tell yourself that you’re not a follower if you’d like, but it doesn’t mean that it’s not true.
October 18th, 2007 at 12:03 pm
Tex and Bridgett,
Chris Brady had a CD that focused on cross lining and I think I understand the meaning but technically (Quixtar rules, training org taboo excluded)it refers to product selling across lines of sponsorship, right?
If that is true, and it really is just “taboo” not to talk cross line then I certainly wouldn’t let that stand in your way Tex. With all the publicity that is going on around the TEAM thing, I think now is a great time to garner support across the board from all IBOs to push for tool profit disclosure. I seriously think that Quixtar does not want power in the IBOs hands for fear of what is happening now I guess. But, if they put the power in EVERY IBOs hands the big pins wouldn’t be as powerful.
Right now the average IBO is at the mercy of every decision Quixtar makes regardless if the IBOs agree. Tool profit transparancy, the name change and pricing are just a few of probably many issues out there.
They are also at the mercy of their LOS because they have nothing to compare it to and they have no voice besides the dysfunctional, self-serving IBOAI board which is worse than having no voice. (just my opinion)
I believe Quixtar-Amway nourished this type of hush hush environment to try to keep the power. (again, just my opinion)
I cannot tell you how much I have learned here in the last couple of months. I am grateful, I truly am.
I still think network marketing is an awesome concept but now I know some of what I didn’t know I didn’t know.
October 18th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
Hey TEX #142:
I don’t believe you’re a real “Tex”. I think you’re just a Yankee imitation of a Tex-wannabe.
I lived in Texas for several years, and many of the Texans I knew had a HUGE ego, like you, but virtually all of them were at root some of the most friendly, reasonable people I’ve ever met, which is NOT like you.
And no self-respecting Texan would ever waste as much time slinking mud from the slimiest of slimy gutters, which is the Alticor Media Blog, as you have spent.
Nope. I’d bet you’re no real “Tex”.
October 18th, 2007 at 1:42 pm
#360 whatever said, “Does someone higher in your LOS really hold any significant power over you?”
Not over me (which I know you didn’t really mean “you” as in you, Bridgett, but “you” as in people in general) but those whom
GirlPower refers to in her #363 comment (by the way, GP, like the word “wonky”), I’d say the answer is “yes”.
October 18th, 2007 at 2:45 pm
Girlpower, From what I have read, most resigned as a result of the emails they received, postings by the company on the Alticor blog (ie; Go Team Go) and the name change to Amway.
Many non-TEAM IBOs have stated they have resigned as well.
I know you and your boyfriend are former TEAM affiliates who are choosing to stay with the Amway business. I am sure there are many others. It’s a matter of personal choice. We all have that right.
October 18th, 2007 at 2:47 pm
#363 GirlPower:
How many resigned their Q business after Q went wonky? Once Q cried “Orrin is breaking the rules!,” folks said, “Since when? How could Q claim this after using him as the example of the best way to build the business?” Once Q cried “legal and regulatory risk,” folks started leaving in droves. Yeah, there’s a trend there.
You can tell yourself all you want that Orrin & Co. broke the rules, but it doesn’t mean that it’s true.
October 18th, 2007 at 3:34 pm
Bridgett?
I think your comments are boring, too.
You know, you might want to reconsider trying to model yourself after Tex…. he’s not doing very well as a leader.
Have a great day
October 19th, 2007 at 1:11 am
The CEO’s at Alticor and all their puppets that are dangling on a string for them are in need of some serious cheese to go with their wine!
They’re seriously claiming that Woodward and Brady put people up to blogging their opinions on various sites????!!!!! You guys just don’t get it do you??? You just don’t understand community and what loyalty is all about. You guys messed up big time when you smeared Woodward and Brady’s name with your lame threat mail that you sent out! You fools woke a sleeping giant. We don’t take orders and we aren’t into the business of acting in an unethical manner. In your world, it’s acceptable, in our world, it’s a sin! I’ll defend my leaders to my grave. They’ve earned that from me. The only thing you’ve earned from me is my promise to never be associated with the likes of you or your freakin’ Amway pyramid again. “Mine eyes have seen the glory”…….. rest in peace alticor.
October 19th, 2007 at 3:02 am
Janedoe #362
So TEAM supporters can say what they want, and it doesn’t count, but Q must be held responsible for what their supporters say? “Wonky” argument.
At least Q lets people blog both sides of the point, not like FreeTheIBO which threw of bloggers that tried to bring balance to the discussion. Somebody like IBOFightback was also banned and his posts removed. And he is a model of balance.
Now you have the silly situation that there are a lot of responses on the FreeTheIBO forum, but the post they respond to are not there.
To paraphrase TEAM supporters: Time will tell.
October 19th, 2007 at 5:02 pm
Piet #371
I did not say that. I am saying that if Q* is getting so upset over people stating their opinion and what to blame Woodward et al for this, then they need to look at the garbage that is being put out on their sites. Should Team be going after all of you for stating your opinion, or should they be going after Q*/Amway/Alticor because Team believes that they are the ones behind the negative blogs?
I don’t run the blogs. What I do know, is what I was told: “this is a site for Team to go to get information about what was going on.” I believe that the original intention of the forums.freetheibo.info site was for that purpose, only. Once all of the bickering started between Team and non-Team supporters, it just got pretty stupid.
I don’t know about you or anyone else, but I am getting pretty sick and tired of the whole mess. All of this bickering and name calling has gotten to be pretty ridiculous and very out of control. What about you?
October 19th, 2007 at 6:09 pm
#370 Marcus Rob:
“I’ll defend my leaders to my grave.”
Wow. I’m almost speechless.
Except for the part of me that feels the need to tell you that’s the stupidest (and most amusing) thing that I’ve read here all week.
There. Now I’m speechless.
October 19th, 2007 at 6:52 pm
Rich #337,
First off, the only “hornet’s nest” that Orrin started was the one caused by his “illegal pyramid” lawsuit.
Secondly, I would have to say that Alticor does not want Doug because they can no longer tolerate anyone that exhibits honesty, integrity, character, loyalty and a caring for people that is in any way similar to how Orrin represented those words. Poorly.
AEM #338,
Thank you for your help with the directly speaking audio. I’ll read the transcript at take it at it’s word. —- You’re welcome.
Let me help you out on a couple of points. .—- When I want your help, I’ll ask.
“Orrin was trying to deflect the problem from being his (tool scam) to Q (high product prices)”. It’s not possible to deflect a problem you don’t have. —- So Rich DeVos was lying in the “Directly Speaking” tapes? All of the former IBO’s were lying about how much tool scam money they made? All the lawsuits of past Emeralds and above are over pocket change? I doubt it.
“Orrin’s promises of lower CD costs probably would have been offset with higher web site costs and/or higher function costs. But now we’ll never know, because TEAM is thankfully GONE”. Orrin didn’t make any promises about that. And no this would not have meant higher prices on other items. You may not know but all changes on Team go through the PC, not just Orrin. —- It doesn’t matter, he’s GONE. The “Perk Committee” is GONE as well.
toomuchtex #339,
What is not correct about my tool scam “beef”?
glenn #340,
hey glenn I see you are still on here and still have no clue …. if this is your form of entertainment then it’s no wonder you never built a business. Get a life, get a clue, you are very old news with a very weak argument. Now please go to your mom’s basement and eat your cookies.
Bridgett #341/2/3,
Right, as usual.
PSM is a real term, it’s in the Compendium.
GirlPower #345,
You are correct, but the problem is the upline also “is not out there in the field selling these products and can only provide limited assistance.”
Quixtar’s “BSMs” are not required, just like BSMs from an LOA. However, Quixtar won’t leave you high and dry if you don’t purchase materials from them. —- Bingo.
Captain #346,
Now that I’ve seen the videos, I’m sure it is the John Doe lawsuit. What makes you think differently?
cmon.people.think #347,
But all I had asked for was an apology from you for critisicing my one typo. How is this related to Orrin and the tool scam? What a shining example of integrity you are, Tex! —- You’re an Orrinite. What more reason do I need?
BTW: You DO realize you made a SPELLING ERROR. Payed? Not quite a typo, now is it? Maybe your keys are stuck again, huh? —- Either one is acceptable, look it up. But I can see you’re stuck on being wrong.
Bridgette #348,
I don’t even find his commnents boring, more like meaningless.
AEM #349,
You have to take responsibility for your life. —- I have, that’s why I’m here.
There would first need to be a tool scam with Team for anybody from Team to apologize for it. —- Then tell me what the tool profit structure was.
You went to some team opens and a seminar, did you rent a car for these things? or fly a plane? or drive? —- None of the above.
How much money could you have possiblty lost if you only went to one seminar and a few opens? —- Not much compared to the 12 years of the above, plus major functions and the tapes/CD’s and books.
You said you were buying tools for 12 years, and you only went to one seminar? —- Different LOA.
The point is, at some point you gotta get over blaming other people and move on with your life. —- I did, that’s why I’m here. And part of why Orrin isn’t an IBO.
You can be absorbed by what happened to you or you can be absorbed by what you’re going to make happen for you. That’s not a quote, just my personal feelings. —- You’re right, and it is already happening. Absorb that.
October 19th, 2007 at 8:27 pm
whatever #350,
There are only two people that truly know what, if any, threat was made. —- I agree.
I can’t say it wasn’t made. —- That’s right.
I just see no logical reason why it would be. —- How about being under oath and legally liable if she lied? That isn’t logical?
I’m also confused at the reference to TEAM threatening anyone. Even if there were some random former IBO that would try to coerce someone else to leave, how is the action of that person the responsibility of TEAM as a whole? —- I don’t know who was on the phone with her, do you?
Are you responsible for whatever idiotic move might be made by some other ABO while building their business? —- I hope not, you’ve made many of them.
It isn’t like the TEAM office pulled a Q/A move and sent out some threatening/intimidating e-mail. —- You can’t get over that letter, can you? All the letter asked was whether you were planning on following the rules.
Bridgette #351,
I’m not sure if he’s smart enough to realize he should even be embarrassed.
Pa #352,
You are wrong. The lawsuit is over the disparaging remarks made online, which probably caused some of the quitting. If some or all of these 30 can be determined to have originated with Orrin and Co., Orrin and Co. is guilty of violating the court order.
Let me get a few facts for the people that did not get this e-mail from Q?A
I did not know about the law suit until I was sent this E-mail. —- Why didn’t your upline or the IBOAI inform you of the lawsuit? Sounds like they wanted to keep you in the dark.
The I looked at Alticorr’s site and read Just GO TEAM! The only one that told me to Quit was Q/A and now they want to a Law suit get real and the main people you should blame works for Q/A. —- Did you read the article or just the headline?
Looked like a reasonable letter to me. Did you actually read the whole thing?
Will TEAM pay me for all the IBO’s that quit because of the tool scam? Sounds like you can’t handle the facts. Orrin is responsible for most of your Platinum’s income, because it came from the tool scam, and has taken a nose dive.
Pa #353,
I know what you were trying to say, but you have it all wrong.
Pa #354,
I have noticed that several of my past post have never gotten posted and all my post have the statement “Your comment is awaiting Moderation”. —- That’s normal. It takes time for a moderator to review the posts. They probably have a real job as well as being the moderator(s).
Moderator please are you afraid of a few questions that I wanted someone - anyone - even Moderator TEX - to answer. —- They are not afraid.
NOT ONE of my Posts insulted a person yet I was and continue to be sensored. —- See above. Get a grip.
Pa #355,
Thank you for posting my all my post today. —- Happy now?
Tex about the web site that I ask people to look at. Please go back to it and really look at that site. Who is that site for and who are the sponsors of this site? —- Which site? I’m not going to search your old posts for the web site.
October 19th, 2007 at 8:58 pm
Pa #356,
You were scammed by your upline, via the tool scam. Blame them, not Quixtar
Amway realist #357,
Now you cannot be so clueless to realize if you change the words of a sentence you change the meaning…. —- See below.
Now you can be so brilliant to realize if you change the words of a sentence you change the meaning….
I would have to assume your intent with changing the words was to change the meaning???? —- That was the intent, and what was done.
Therefore, you are without fact! Have you looked up the word “some”? It could be mean nearly every product is over priced! Which I firmly believe has some truth! —- I have supplied plenty of facts. I don’t have to look up the word “some”. I know what it means. There are probably millions of Q products that are not over priced. I posted some Q products on qblog last year, and there are many more available in the partner stores. Hit the road.
Now lets look at your beloved tool scam crap! —- Yes, let’s do that.
The Devos and Van Andel families make billions off the backs of the IBO-fact! —- Sure they do, they provide the A/Q opportunity. Did you want them to be a non-profit?
You claim all the money is in the tools-your fact! —- No, I said there is MUCH more profit made via tools than Q by the upline.
So, if the “cowardly kingpins” are making all the money then they should be making billions! —-How did you calculate that?
If your statement that all the money is in the tools is true….. —- It isn’t, see above and get a clue.
Then where did all the money in the product go? —- About a third to make the products, about a third to A/Q for profit, and about a third to IBO’s.
Amway realist, if you will open your dust clouded mind for a moment you will see….all the product profit lands in the founding families pocket AND the IBO’s! To the tune of billions!!!! The tool profits land in the lying cowardly “kingpin” IBO’s pockets, somewhere near billions!!!
This comment was meant to be a disparaging remark concerning “Amway realist”, because he ALWAYS has his facts wrong. With this post I am simply executing my 1st amendment rights!
GirlPower #358,
Bravo. Take a bow.
whatever #359/60,
It must truly be a gift for you to know the motivation behind decisions made by thousands of people you don’t even know. Were you born omniscient…or did you grow into it? —- I was born that way, but I also keep working on it.
Anyway, thanks for the well wishes. —- I think she was making a joke, sorry I had to explain that.
I guess I agree with what you posted, but I’m not sure how it answers the question I asked. —- You agreed? There’s a first time for everything.
Is someone hundreds of people higher than you in your LOS somehow responsible for something you do or say on your own when dealing with someone below you? —- It depends if they told you to do something and you did it as requested.
I guess I’m also confused (I’m not guessing, you’re definitely confused) as to what the nature of the “threat” could be. Does someone higher in your LOS really hold any significant power over you? It isn’t like an employer/employee relationship. —- The threat was if she didn’t follow TEAM, then TEAM would either move most of her downline into TEAM and she would lose her position, and/or they would start vicious rumors about her and she would lose most of her IBO’s. The second one has happened many times over the past few decades.
October 19th, 2007 at 9:09 pm
Girl Power #373
You so beat me to that post about Marcus Rob. I’m still shaking my head and laughing on post 370.
Thank God that he is on Orrin’s side and not ours. Could you imagine being this persons upline? Whoever it is…my condolences.
Please enlighten us Marcus Rob….what is the color of the sky in YOUR world?
Enjoy your Leadership Development Service, Marcus Rob and thank you for resigning your IBO number. You DID remember to do that didn’t you?
If not there are several here that will guide you step by step to make sure that you contaminate this business opportunity no more.
Marcus Rob…you better keep that promise.
October 19th, 2007 at 9:17 pm
The Blogger Formerly Known As Captain #361,
Got sheep? Baa-baa.
janedoe #362,
I believe what the facts indicate.
We are all staying because of the very immature way that TEAM has handled this entire situation. Not once has Team put out negative press, they “just” filed a lawsuit claiming Q is an illegal pyramid. People talking on forums or blogs do count, except for your post of course. They are all individuals that are speaking their minds, and some have the facts on their side. Team, as a company, nor any of those involved in the original lawsuit, needed to issue any statements to the press or local news regarding the situation, their illegal pyramid lawsuit said it all. We received notification of the “termination” of Woodward and Brady from Q*. —- Why didn’t Orrin tell you, the “leader” that you thought he was. TEAM started the bad PR from day one and Q hasn’t stopped pushing their face in the dirt. TEAM is the only ones that are to blame here for the negative.
Tex: Get a life! —- Thanks, I have one.
If you are so naive to think that there is not a profit made from tools, then there is something seriously wrong with you. —- It isn’t the fact money is made on tools, it is the AMOUNT of secret money that has resulted in the tool scam.
Everything you buy, every penny you spend, anywhere, is making a profit for someone. Heck, even working (if you do), is making money for someone else. —- So this allows my upline “teammates” and “business partners” to scam me and lie?
We have never, ever, been told that we HAVE to purchase tools. —- But you have also been told tools are necessary for success. Do you call that a real choice?
Yes, they helped with building the business, our relationships and just plain old teaching leadership skills, that aren’t taught in school or on the job. —- So what?
Yes, you can buy those books somewhere else, in fact, we did buy a lot of them through B & N, and earned PV/BV on the purchase. —- Good for you, I bought a lot for about $1, and still check out books for free at the library.
We bought what was considered the Top 5 books and many that were mentioned at seminars or open meetings. —- Same here, see above.
If they had not been promoted by the leaders, we never would have known what book to pick out of the hundreds of thousand books available. —- This doesn’t mean you should pay full retail price to your upline.
99% of the books that we read are books that were recommended by someone else. —- Point?
Does it bother us to pay the prices we pay for tools? No! IT IS A CHOICE. —- So what, it bothers me and many others.
We signed up when we were ready, adjusted what we needed to, and have gone on from there. Never has our being on system or not being on system, stopped our upline from helping us out. —- Did you ever start and then go off the system? (sorry, I said “the system” rather than “system”)
Q* wants Team to Just GO. —- You can say that again.
We are and now they are upset about that. —- No, you just need to follow the rules on your way out.
They are upset over the negative press (their own doing) and want to sue John Doe for comments made on blogs and forums. —- They don’t want the John Doe’s, they want Orrin and Co. The John Doe’s are the path to Orrin.
What about Altiors own blog? There is more negative, nasty, downright offensive garbage on this site about Woodward and Team then we have seen anywhere about Q*. —- Then you should leave, before the “negative” ruins you for life.
Guess they need to bring a lawsuit against themselves! —- Too stupid to comment on.
October 19th, 2007 at 9:25 pm
Hey Tex,
Since you are on here all the time
I thought I would ask you. But if anyone else knows feel free to jump in.
The letter that Orrin read in court (or the single sentence). Does anyone know what the entire letter said, or is there just speculation?
October 19th, 2007 at 9:36 pm
Tex 374,
““Orrin was trying to deflect the problem from being his (tool scam) to Q (high product prices)”. It’s not possible to deflect a problem you don’t have. —- So Rich DeVos was lying in the “Directly Speaking” tapes? All of the former IBO’s were lying about how much tool scam money they made? All the lawsuits of past Emeralds and above are over pocket change? I doubt it”.
When the directly speaking tapes were made, Orrin didn’t have a number. He was a little kid. Team didn’t exist. Is there a problem with the money made off tools? I think there is a sickening problem with it. Did it exist in Team? Nope.
You don’t need to know profit structure from Team. Like you said, you spent the majority of time not in Team but in another LOA. You bought tools from a different LOA, worry about their pricing structure. I bet if you had been registared bu somebody in a growing Team leg, you would have a different perspective. You know what you’re upline would have done when you dropped off system? contiued to build depth. Even if you never decided to come back to the business, you would be silver for the rest of your life. You could gripe all you wanted about tool scams and whatever else and get 25% of your BV back. Good deal.
“The point is, at some point you gotta get over blaming other people and move on with your life. —- I did, that’s why I’m here. And part of why Orrin isn’t an IBO”.
You don’t blame other people? Then act like you don’t. And I’m 100% positive you have nothing to do with Orrin not being a IBO.
I think this recent situation with Team has given you a platform to whine about tool profits. But you spent so little time in Team and so much time in some other LOA. You don’t know much about Team, and everything you think about Team is through the lens of “they are running a tool scam like every other major LOA” and that is the exact reason nothing you say is relavent to what is happening. Show me one document from anyone directly involved in the case that would indicate all this is because of the tool profit in Team and I’ll say I was wrong.
October 19th, 2007 at 9:49 pm
GirlPower #363,
How many of you resigned your Q business before Orrin went wonky? Once he cried “high prices” you all cried “high prices”. Once he cried “non-compete is not legal” you all cried it. Yeah, there’s a trend there. —- Baa-baa, what do you mean? Baa-baa, want some wool? “Wonky”, I like that word.
You can tell yourself that you’re not a follower if you’d like, but it doesn’t mean that it’s not true. —- Almost everyone follows someone/thing else, the question is who/what you follow. For me, it isn’t the lying cowardly Orrin Woodward.
DLSChicago #364,
The rules refer to product selling across lines of sponsorship, the upline takes it MUCH further.
If that is true, and it really is just “taboo” not to talk cross line then I certainly wouldn’t let that stand in your way Tex. —- I’m not letting it stand in my way, but most of the other IBO’s do. It takes two to tango, as they say.
With all the publicity that is going on around the TEAM thing, I think now is a great time to garner support across the board from all IBOs to push for tool profit disclosure. —- I agree, I think the IBO’s should band together and push the IBOAI aside, as they are NOT looking out for our interests.
I seriously think that Quixtar does not want power in the IBOs hands for fear of what is happening now I guess. But, if they put the power in EVERY IBOs hands the big pins wouldn’t be as powerful. —- I think they have put trust in the hands of those who are not trustworthy. The big pins need to have less power, they have misused it.
Right now the average IBO is at the mercy of every decision Quixtar makes regardless if the IBOs agree. Tool profit transparancy, the name change and pricing are just a few of probably many issues out there. —- “At the mercy” is too strong a term. If Q gets too stupid, we leave. We need each other. If you think blogs, and especially this blog, aren’t having an effect, you are dead wrong.
They are also at the mercy of their LOS because they have nothing to compare it to and they have no voice besides the dysfunctional, self-serving IBOAI board which is worse than having no voice. (just my opinion) —- Can’t argue with that. Have you asked for your $9 back yet?
I believe Quixtar-Amway nourished this type of hush hush environment to try to keep the power. (again, just my opinion) —- I agree here as well, but the internet shook up the “hush hush”, didn’t it?
I cannot tell you how much I have learned here in the last couple of months. I am grateful, I truly am. —- I’ll be grateful when the tool scams are shut down.
I still think network marketing is an awesome concept but now I know some of what I didn’t know I didn’t know. —- Me too.
DanO322 #365,
I don’t believe you’re a real “Tex”. I think you’re just a Yankee imitation of a Tex-wannabe. —- You don’t have a clue.
I lived in Texas for several years, and many of the Texans I knew had a HUGE ego, like you, but virtually all of them were at root some of the most friendly, reasonable people I’ve ever met, which is NOT like you. —- How would you know, you’ve never met me? Besides, I’m friendly and reasonable with those who recognize the facts, such as GirlPower and Bridgett.
And no self-respecting Texan would ever waste as much time slinking mud from the slimiest of slimy gutters, which is the Alticor Media Blog, as you have spent. —- Texans never give up. Even when they lose, such as the Alamo. However, this won’t be a loss for this Texan, but you better put the women and children out of sight, this will be fun, but it won’t be pretty.
Nope. I’d bet you’re no real “Tex”. —- No need to bet, you’re already a loser. Betting would just reinforce that fact.
October 19th, 2007 at 9:53 pm
Girlpower 358
“People didn’t quit because of Q/A PR. They quit because they’re sheep. Followers.
Good luck w/the Leadership Development thing. Sounds like most of you need it”.
Are you honestly telling me that I’m quitting because I’m a sheep? I’m quitting because of the lack of respect Alticor has shown IBO’s affliated with Team, IBO’s that never broke any rules, never did anything wrong, and never had any issue’s with Quixtar contracts. When they sent out a e-mail saying that what Team has taught puts IBO’s at legal risk (which by the way is 100% untrue), you don’t think there were IBO’s who had huge portions of their team quit? People who never did anything wrong.
Did you read the first blog “just go, team”? The same day the team site had a post talking about the importance of not disparging Alticor or anybody or company that is affliated with it.
October 19th, 2007 at 10:38 pm
DLSChicago #367,
How many more have quit because of the tool scam?
Many non-TEAM IBOs have stated they have resigned as well, and good riddance.
I know you and your boyfriend are former TEAM affiliates who are choosing to stay with the Amway business. I am sure there are many others. It’s a matter of personal choice. We all have that right. —- Yes, you also have the right to be stupid.
The Blogger Formerly Known As Captain #368,
How many resigned their Q business after Q went wonky? —- Zero. Q didn’t go wonky, Orrin did. He’s the wonky poster boy.
Once Q cried “Orrin is breaking the rules!,” folks said, “Since when? How could Q claim this after using him as the example of the best way to build the business?” —- Ever hear of privacy laws? How about wanting to give him every chance of correcting himself, without hurting his reputation? Did you take a stupid pill this morning?
Once Q cried “legal and regulatory risk,” folks started leaving in droves. Yeah, there’s a trend there. —- That’s right, it’s called “legal and regulatory risk”.
You can tell yourself all you want that Orrin & Co. broke the rules, but it doesn’t mean that it’s true. —- I know what I saw is true. Orrin and Co. broke a bunch of rules I saw, there is no reason to believe they didn’t break many more.
cmon.people.think #369,
I think your comments are boring, too. —- I think your comments are stupid too.
You know, you might want to reconsider trying to model yourself after Tex…. he’s not doing very well as a leader. —- How would you know, loser?
Have another miserable day
Marcus #370,
The CEO’s at TEAM and all their puppets that are dangling on a string for them are in need of some serious cheese to go with their whine!
They’re seriously claiming that Woodward and Brady put people up to blogging their opinions on various sites????!!!!! —- Looks reasonable to me. Besides, it will suck Orrin dry, fighting the court case.
You guys just don’t get it do you??? You just don’t understand community and what loyalty is all about. —- Neither do you, all you know is the tool scam.
You guys messed up big time when you smeared Woodward and Brady’s name with your lame threat mail that you sent out! —- Orrin will spend the rest of his life regretting filing that illegal pyramid lawsuit, the e-mails were only in response to that lawsuit.
You fools woke a sleeping giant. We don’t take blackmail and we aren’t into the business of acting in an unethical manner. In your world, it’s acceptable, in our world, it’s a sin! I’ll defend my principles to my grave. The only thing you’ve earned from me is my promise to never be associated with the likes of you or your freakin’ TEAM pyramid again. “Mine eyes have seen the glory”…….. rest in agony TEAM.
Piet #371,
So TEAM supporters can say what they want, and it doesn’t count, but Q must be held responsible for what their supporters say? “Wonky” argument. —- Orrin “wonky” Woodward (OWW).
At least Q lets people blog both sides of the point, not like FreeTheIBO which threw of bloggers that tried to bring balance to the discussion. Somebody like IBOFightback was also banned and his posts removed. And he is a model of balance. —- The first part is true, but ibofb is a model of spinning.
Now you have the silly situation that there are a lot of responses on the FreeTheIBO forum, but the post they respond to are not there. —- That’s okay, they like talking to themselves.
To paraphrase TEAM supporters: Time will tell. —- Time is already telling, and the story is a disaster for OWW.
janedoe #372,
I did not say that. I am saying that if Q* is getting so upset over people stating their opinion and what to blame Woodward et al for this, then they need to look at the garbage that is being put out on their sites. —- Too bad Q isn’t under a court order.
Should Team be going after all of you for stating your opinion, or should they be going after Q*/Amway/Alticor because Team believes that they are the ones behind the negative blogs? —- They should be groveling for forgiveness, but it’s too late, as the wheels of the judicial system are grinding Orrin and Co. to pieces.
I don’t run the blogs. What I do know, is what I was told: “this is a site for Team to go to get information about what was going on.” I believe that the original intention of the forums.freetheibo.info site was for that purpose, only. Once all of the bickering started between Team and non-Team supporters, it just got pretty stupid. —- I think you were already stupid, it just came out on the blog.
I don’t know about you or anyone else, but I am getting pretty sick and tired of the whole mess. All of this bickering and name calling has gotten to be pretty ridiculous and very out of control. What about you? —- I am enjoying pushing and rubbing Orrin’s face into the mess he created with his illegal pyramid lawsuit. He will always be a lying coward to me.
GirlPower #373,
“I’ll defend my leaders to my grave.” Wow. I’m almost speechless. Except for the part of me that feels the need to tell you that’s the stupidest (and most amusing) thing that I’ve read here all week. There. Now I’m speechless. —- You’re right, but the week isn’t over yet. Perhaps he can top it.
October 20th, 2007 at 10:15 pm
Sorry Tex, for calling you the Moderator. It seams that insults and name calling will get posted, I tried to post several questions but they never got posted.
I knew that you would give an answer to my questions (if you got to see them) but I do not think that they will post them on this site.
On post 292
I was talking about the web site for the Direct Selling Association meeting. At this web site people can order CD’s about the meeting. I know that you like to talk about the price of the motivational CDs. I must of hit the wrong key - ¾ of what I typed did not get posted . This is a question posted on their site and thei answer about getting a CD. Look at the price for each CD. http://www.dsa.org/meetings/am07/am07.html
I’d like to order a CD of the workshop presentations. Is one available?
Yes. Registered attendees can purchase a compilation CD that includes the workshop audio, powerpoint presentations and speaker bios. Each CD is $195, and will mail in early July. Click here to go to the order form.
October 21st, 2007 at 7:16 pm
AEM #382,
Are you honestly telling me that I’m quitting because I’m a sheep? —- Baa-Baa. But that is probably an insult to the intelligence of the sheep.
I’m quitting because of the lack of respect Alticor has shown IBO’s affliated with Team, IBO’s that never broke any rules, never did anything wrong, and never had any issue’s with Quixtar contracts. When they sent out a e-mail saying that what Team has taught puts IBO’s at legal risk (which by the way is 100% untrue), you don’t think there were IBO’s who had huge portions of their team quit? People who never did anything wrong. —- You can’t get over this, can you? Your “leadership” broke several rules, therefore you were a part of it, by association. All Q did was ask you whether you were going to start or keep following the rules yourself. I personally SAW and HEARD rule violations, so stop the garbage TEAM didn’t teach IBO’s taught rule violations. I couldn’t care less if a lot of IBO’s quit, TEAM was a cancer that had to be surgically removed, and if some good “flesh” had to go with the cancer, so be it. If TEAM “leadership” had left properly, much less damage would have been done, but instead they filed an idiotic “illegal pyramid” lawsuit that has been sent to arbitration, where it belonged to begin with. Get a grip.
Did you read the first blog “just go, team”? The same day the team site had a post talking about the importance of not disparging Alticor or anybody or company that is affliated with it. —- Yeah, I read, and a big satisfied smile came across my face. You don’t get it, do you? TEAM disparaged Alticor several days prior to that post, when they filed the “illegal pyramid” lawsuit. Get a clue.
Pa #384,
Sorry Tex, for calling you the Moderator. —- That’s okay, you’re not the first one to make this error.
It seams that insults and name calling will get posted, I tried to post several questions but they never got posted. —- Perhaps your questions were lost, why don’t you try again?
I knew that you would give an answer to my questions (if you got to see them) but I do not think that they will post them on this site. —- I think you are mistaken, why don’t you try and find out?
I already pointed out the price of those CD’s, the information/value they contain, and the intended buyers, is TOTALLY different than the lying cowardly “kingpin” CD’s.
October 22nd, 2007 at 12:05 am
#382 AEM
Alticor made it clear that the “Just Go, TEAM” post was directed toward the leaders of TEAM. Not each and every IBO associated with that LOA.
That’s just dandy that TEAM paid lip-service to the whole “don’t say anything disparaging about Alticor or their companies”.
Did they add, “Because we, your leaders, are doing enough damage by filing a lawsuit claiming it’s an ILLEGAL PYRAMID.”
Come on. Grow up.
________________________________________________
If you didn’t break any rules, then why didn’t you just disregard the emails?
I got an email from Quixtar at the end of July about their New Policy Regarding Stacking that was to take effect as of September 1st.
It didn’t apply to me, so I disregarded it.
Your Platinum got this email. The email laid out what would happen for the First, Second, and Third Occurrences.
Did your Platinum rely this information to you? If not, is it Quixtar’s fault that your Platinum didn’t inform you of some serious issues were going down at the Corp?
If so, then any corrections that needed to be made, were made. Right?
So any subsequent emails that you received you could have disregarded. Due to the intensity and severity of what occurred on August 9th, Quixtar didn’t have time (or manpower) to individually contact each and every IBO affected.
October 22nd, 2007 at 1:07 am
Now I see why “Piet” is so well known in the “I have no clue” club! I wish more Amway folks would do what he does! Just makes our case even more air tight! Thanks Piet, for being “one of them”.
October 22nd, 2007 at 2:26 pm
Bridgett,
I’m not sure you read my post, you’re reponse doesn’t reflect that you did anyway. Try again, try reading it out loud, that might help your understanding.
Are you honestly telling me that I’m quitting because I’m a sheep? I’m quitting because of the lack of respect Alticor has shown IBO’s affliated with Team, IBO’s that never broke any rules, never did anything wrong, and never had any issue’s with Quixtar contracts. When they sent out a e-mail saying that what Team has taught puts IBO’s at legal risk (which by the way is 100% untrue), you don’t think there were IBO’s who had huge portions of their team quit? People who never did anything wrong.
Did you read the first blog “just go, team”? The same day the team site had a post talking about the importance of not disparging Alticor or anybody or company that is affliated with it.
October 22nd, 2007 at 4:08 pm
Hey Tex,
I asked you a question up in #379. Maybe you missed it or something. If you get a chance can you look at it and give me an answer if you have anything.
Thanks,
Dwight
October 22nd, 2007 at 4:33 pm
#388 AEM
Let me break it up in to smaller pieces for you.
You said, “Did you read the first blog “just go, team”? The same day the team site had a post talking about the importance of not disparging Alticor or anybody or company that is affliated with it.”
My response, “TEAM paid lip-service to the whole ‘don’t say anything disparaging about Alticor or their companies’, while they, your leaders filed a lawsuit claiming Alitcor’s company, Quixtar, is an illegal pyramid.
Is this (filing a lawsuit and claiming MY BUSINESS IS ILLEGAL) not, in fact, a disparaging act on your leaders part?
(cont.)
October 22nd, 2007 at 4:44 pm
(cont.)
#388 AEM
You said, “I’m quitting because of the lack of respect Alticor has shown IBO’s affliated with Team, IBO’s that never broke any rules, never did anything wrong, and never had any issue’s with Quixtar contracts. When they sent out a e-mail saying that what Team has taught puts IBO’s at legal risk…”
My response, “If you didn’t break any rules, then why didn’t you just disregard the emails?”
(cont.)
October 22nd, 2007 at 4:55 pm
(cont.)
#388 AEM
OR
Are you claiming that the rules sited in the July 24th email sent to all Platinums (16 days before the August 9th events) did not apply to you?
The rule sited in that email was 4.25. IBO Plan Manipulation
Do you know what email I am talking about?
Did your Platinum share it with you?
October 22nd, 2007 at 7:47 pm
Marcus #387,
How do you come to this conclusion about Piet?
AEM #388,
I’m not sure you read my post, your reponse doesn’t reflect that you did anyway. Try again, try reading it out loud, that might help your understanding.
I am honestly telling you that you’re quitting because you’re a sheep? —- YES.
I’m quitting because of the lack of respect Alticor has shown IBO’s affliated with Team, IBO’s that never broke any rules, never did anything wrong, and never had any issue’s with Quixtar contracts. —- Baa-Baa.
When they sent out a e-mail saying that what Team has taught puts IBO’s at legal risk (which by the way is 100% untrue), you don’t think there were IBO’s who had huge portions of their team quit? People who never did anything wrong. —- Baa-Baa.
Did you read the first blog “just go, team”? The same day the team site had a post talking about the importance of not disparging Alticor or anybody or company that is affliated with it. —- Baa-Baa.
Dwight #389,
I did miss it. I don’t have the letter, why don’t you ask for it on the freetheibo forum, they can add it to the freetheibo site, under “Court Documents, The Destination for Lawsuit Coverage”. Although I haven’t seen all the documents for the numerous defeats over the past month or so, I won’t hold my breath it ever shows up.
Bridgett #390-2,
Those were tiny pieces, but you may have used too many 2 and 3 syllable words. AEM, you’re just like the rest of the Orrinites, you like to ask questions, but you refuse to answer the ones we ask. This isn’t some kind of encounter with a prospect, where the power is on the side of those asking questions. You are simply digging yourself a deeper hole when you try that technique on a blog. You have been taught well, to duck and dodge, too bad we have everything in writing for all to see on this blog.
October 22nd, 2007 at 8:02 pm
Bridget would you please post the July 24th email.
October 23rd, 2007 at 2:02 am
Bridgett,
You missed it again.
Tex,
You think things are going on that are not going on.
October 23rd, 2007 at 9:37 am
This is for TEAM bloggers… I’m as guilty as anyone in what I’m about to say: Don’t you see that Alticor/Amway and their “loyalists” are just sitting there waiting for our replies to their “uneducated opinions”???? Guys, we know the truth and that’s all that counts. We know we are doing the right thing and we know where we’re going. We’ll prove it through our actions! It’s like Pastor Dickie stated in Louisville: “Character is being the same person in the dark that you are in the light” ….. The ELITE TEAM Leadership has proven their character over and over and again to us. The least we can do as a unified TEAM is show them we are too…. we aren’t perfect, that’s for sure, however, we aren’t so wrapped up in ourselves that we can’t admit it. It’s time to move forward and put Alticor/Amway in our rear view mirrors! The future is ahead of us and TEAM is the right path. Whether you are Alticor/Amway or TEAM one thing is for sure, we are all children of GOD and entitled to our opinions. Just remember, opinions are only opinions, yet people can be hurt by them.
I respect everyone’s opinion and refuse to cast anymore stones. I know I’m solid in my heart with TEAM and my GOD. That’s enough for me……… I pray that it is for you as well!
God Bless All of you!
October 23rd, 2007 at 11:57 am
Marcus Rob: #396
What never ceases to amaze me, is how TEAM shouts, “God, God, Morals, truth and integrity” the whole time, but they cannot honour a simple contract?
October 23rd, 2007 at 1:38 pm
AEM #395,
I’ll bet that’s what Orrin was thinking the evening of August 8th, 2007. Can you be any more specific, or does your “mysterious” message have more meaning when the facts are not known?
Marcus #396,
Having trouble with the facts again? Must have been a “fact virus” being passed around in KY. Sounds like Orrin and Co. pumped more of their garbage into your brains and are hoping it will last until the next major function, which may or may not happen on February 22, 2008.
October 23rd, 2007 at 3:28 pm
#395 AEM
(and #388 and #382)
Is there a reason why you refuse to answer the question?
I will now ask it a THIRD time veeery slooowly:
Did…your…Platinum…share…the…email…with…you…from…Quixtar…from…July…24th…Subject:…New Policy Regarding “Stacking” Announced?
October 23rd, 2007 at 3:36 pm
Piet #397,
That doesn’t amaze me at all, it is par for the course.
October 23rd, 2007 at 5:07 pm
Bridgett #399,
He’s hasn’t answered hundreds of questions, why do you think he’s going to start now? Answering would require him to engage his brain, and he is very happy being “blissfully ignorant”.
October 23rd, 2007 at 7:15 pm
Along with AEM…..I had several very new IBOs who had not even sponsored ANYONE yet. They also QUIT because Q basically told them they were in danger of being in sonething illegal.
FALSE !
Am I not supposed to be upset that people who had barely had time to get started ( and who are always a bit skittish when they first start because network marketing ..especially Amway …has such a “this is a scam” rep)
just flat out quit…accusing me of getting them ( and their friends ) in something that would get them in trouble with the law ?
A couple of them even have friends who they sponsored who won’t return their phone calls now. They are furious with me…think I set them up.
QUIXTAR had no business contacting them and stating that they were participating in illegal activities. And irrespective of Q’s words in the email, THAT’s what those newbibes took from it !
October 23rd, 2007 at 7:35 pm
bridgett 399
Yes there is a reason I don’t answer your questions. They are not at all revelant to the reasons I have for leaving.
October 23rd, 2007 at 9:18 pm
Another factually pact post from Tex the troll.
October 23rd, 2007 at 9:52 pm
Tex looks you know all. I still say that you should go out and start your own business. You do have all the wrong answers but I am sure you will do just fine.
October 23rd, 2007 at 11:21 pm
When a person of integrity isn’t believed, he allows time to prove him right!……. TIME is Orrin Woodward and the TEAM’s best friend!
1 Million people and beyond!
October 24th, 2007 at 12:07 am
#403 AEM
I asked you ONE simple straightforward question.
And the fact that you haven’t answered, leads me to believe that NO, your Platinum did NOT tell you of the email.
And that leads me to believe that your Platinum LIED to you–by omission.
Just like all your Diamonds have been lying to you.
Since 2001, Quixtar has been dealing with your Diamonds, trying to get TEAM to follow the rules.
http://www.freetheibo.com/images/Compendium_of_Exhibits.pdf
(pages 25-31)
Six YEARS! So don’t give me some crap talk that the Corp doesn’t care about IBOs and preserving people’s businesses.
Finally, on July 24th, Quixtar “went around” your Diamonds and went straight to the Platinums (and above) with their email.
http://adatudes.opportunityzone.com/2007/08/14/Stacking-vs-DepthBuilding.aspx
Still, not all Platinums “passed the information downline”.
And the Diamonds certainly weren’t willing to change their tune; hence, they threatened Quixtar (and MY BUSINESS) with an illegal pyramid lawsuit that your TEAM Diamonds waived in the faces of Quixtar 16 days later.
And then, since your Diamonds and now your Platinums failed Leadership 101 by NOT passing on CRUCIAL information, Quixtar “went around” all IBOs and went straight to all TEAM-affiliated IBOs, via email.
If your Diamonds were TRUE leaders, during ANY steps in the process, you wouldn’t have gotten those “threatening” emails.
________________________________________________
Hey, here’s another question: Did TEAM tell you of the name change to Amway back in June? Pretty crucial information, don’t you think? Or, AEM, are you like a bunch of IBOs who had to find out from the Internet, or their neighbors and relatives?
Another sophomoric mistake by your so-called leaders.
_______________________________________________
#402 dannie, you should’ve told your new IBOs what was going on.
YOU LOST THEIR TRUST BECAUSE YOU WEREN’T HONEST. That’s why they quit and won’t return phone calls. Because of YOU.
But how can I expect you’d do anything else but “be in duplication” of your Upline?
________________________________________________
If this is any indication of TEAM’s “Leadership Revolution”, then it is sad, pathetic, and wicked, all rolled up in one.
Good-bye.
October 24th, 2007 at 3:00 am
Have fun rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, Bridgett.
And, and very pleasant and welcomed good-bye to you too.
October 24th, 2007 at 3:29 am
Bridgett,
You ask fair questions, I’ll give you answers. First I want to make it clear that the reason I have for leaving is the story that dannie tells. I doubt he did anything wrong at all, and he had his downline blown up by at the lies Quixtar told them. I also doubt he is the only with that story, I think many people have that story.
That reason has nothing at all do with the e-mail you ask me about. It is quixtar’s disregard for how their actions could effect IBO’s that have nothing to do with the issue’s involving Team.
Now on to your questions. . . (if they don’t show up soon they are in the moderation stage and may take a while)
October 24th, 2007 at 3:29 am
For clarity my words are in brackets, and the quotes have quotation marks
Bridgett,
“Is this (filing a lawsuit and claiming MY BUSINESS IS ILLEGAL) not, in fact, a disparaging act on your leaders part”? [Great question, really. Yes but in a very technical semantic way. The only disparaging nature to it was a byproduct of necessary action. The intent was not to disparage, not to slander, which is polar opposite of (my personal interpretation) the “Just go, team” blog and the blogs that followed. When one party sues another and the being sued started acting like a pissed off teenage girl, to me that takes away from their credibility.
Further nobody called YOUR BUSINESS IS ILLEGAL unless you own Quixtar].
“You said, “I’m quitting because of the lack of respect Alticor has shown IBO’s affliated with Team, IBO’s that never broke any rules, never did anything wrong, and never had any issue’s with Quixtar contracts. When they sent out a e-mail saying that what Team has taught puts IBO’s at legal risk…”
My response, “If you didn’t break any rules, then why didn’t you just disregard the emails?”
[It doesn’t make a difference if I read the e-mails or not. Alticor’s actions (the reason for my leaving) were the same seeing as they already happened by the time you asked me this question].
“Are you claiming that the rules sited in the July 24th email sent to all Platinums (16 days before the August 9th events) did not apply to you”?
[I’m not sure why you’re asking this. Of course they apply to me. All the rules that apply to all Quixtar IBO’s apply to me, since I am a Quixtar IBO. I really don’t understand how you got I thought they didn’t. I never said it, or tried to imply it].
“The rule sited in that email was 4.25. IBO Plan Manipulation
Do you know what email I am talking about? [At the time No]
Did your Platinum share it with you”? [Nope never did].
“And that leads me to believe that your Platinum LIED to you–by omission.
Just like all your Diamonds have been lying to you.
Since 2001, Quixtar has been dealing with your Diamonds, trying to get TEAM to follow the rules”.
[To be clear, my Crown is Dan Williams. Dexter is nowhere in my upline, thus Orrin isn’t either, thus I have a different diamond. In fact the Diamondship I was sponsored into got accredited, which means that they were investigated and Quixtar found them to be a model organization. Here’s the point you need to get. Depth building was taught the same. I think the reason my platinum didn’t pass along the information to me was because he knows I’ve been to many seminars where rule 4.25 was discussed and the proper (company approved) methods of depth building were being taught. He knows how well I understand them. So one more time here the same methods of building depth that were taught in a Quixtar accredited system were the same being taught in Team.
Also lying by omission is different. Using your logic everybody is constantly lying to everyone else because they constantly knowing things that not everyone else knows that they are not telling everyone else. Sorry I know that’s not easy to read, as in it’s lacking proper punctuation probabl]y.
“And the Diamonds certainly weren’t willing to change their tune; hence, they threatened Quixtar (and MY BUSINESS) with an illegal pyramid lawsuit that your TEAM Diamonds waived in the faces of Quixtar 16 days later”.
[Nobody threatened your business with anything, calm down about that. I know it might feel that way, but it is not the case. And the lawsuit was presented to Quixtar 1 day (not 16) before it was filed].
Hey, here’s another question: Did TEAM tell you of the name change to Amway back in June? [Nope]
Pretty crucial information, don’t you think? [Yeah]
Or, AEM, are you like a bunch of IBOs who had to find out from the Internet, or their neighbors and relatives? [No I get my information from people I trust and court documents].
[I hope this helps you sleep or whatever you’re trying to get out of this].
October 24th, 2007 at 3:39 am
Bridgett, your comment to dannie is 100% inappropriate. Do you know this person? Do you know how they conducted their business? What makes you think this person knew what was going on? To be right in the things you say you would need to know the people that quit, do you? You act like you got a big business, did these great people skills build it or did daddy years ago? Please answer all these questions.
The thing you and Tex don’t seem to get is that you are passionate to a unbelievable level. You both seem like your being paid to post the stuff you do. I can’t imagine caring so much about this issue that I would post the stuff you or Tex does. You don’t distinguish between people and their idea’s and end up attacking people, when the human approach would be to attack idea’s. Interesting how the two people most anti Team on this blog are the ones who treat people the worst. Coincidence?
October 24th, 2007 at 7:31 am
AEM #410, whatever technical semantical way you look at it, it is still “yes”.
If one accuses Q of being illegal, you obviously accuse everybody downline from Q also to be in an illegal pyramid! How can it be otherwise. If I accuse your father of being human, surely I imply that you are human as well?
Yes, it was 16 days, from the date the e-mail was sent, to the day the court case was presented.
And where have you seen Bridgette been disrespectful? Straightforward yes, but I have never seen her call anybody names in the way that get called if I dare post on the FreetheIBO forums?
If you don’t like the message, don’t shoot the messenger.
October 24th, 2007 at 9:00 am
#411 AEM:
Have you not read any of the posts written by your fellow team cronies? Passionate to a unbelievable level? Are you readin’ the same blogs that I am?
Most of y’all (and by y’all I mean team) are clueless and are going on blind faith alone. You regurgitate the same garbage that your leaders have spit out as if it’s fact. And you spew it here on the ALTICOR site as if you can cast your brainwash spell over people who see team for what it really is.
Nice try.
October 24th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
dannie #402,
If their upline didn’t explain the information to them, you deserved to have them quit. However, the upline CAN’T fully explain the situation, because THEY are lying cowardly “kingpins” who would have to explain they make most of their profit from the tools, all while calling these new IBO’s their “teammates” and “business partners”. THAT is why they quit, a lack of legitimate upline leadership.
AEM #403,
What you think is relevant and what is actually relevant could be two different things.
whatever #404,
Another factually pact post from Tex the troll. —- another misspelled single syllable word from whatever. It’s supposed to be “packed”. And that’s a fact.
Mick #405,
Mick looks you know all. I still say that you should go out and start your own shoe shine business. You do have all the knowledge you need and I am sure you will do just fine.
Marcus #406,
Time and the courts are proving what Orrin is, but it isn’t proving him right. Quite the opposite.
Bridgett #407,
You hit the nail on the head with that one, good job.
Rico #408,
Hit the road.
AEM #409,
Quixtar told no lies. Name one.
AEM #410,
No comment necessary, you revealed your true Orrinite nature.
AEM #411,
Bridgett and I just call a spade a spade, much to your disappointment.
Piet #412/GirlPower #413,
Right on.
October 24th, 2007 at 8:30 pm
Troll,
I know how to spell “packed.” I just wanted to make sure you were still paying attention. Besides, that glass house you live in looks too nice for you to be throwing stones.
October 24th, 2007 at 9:26 pm
“What you think is relevant and what is actually relevant could be two different things”. Exactly tex, exactly
“Quixtar told no lies. Name one”. Quixtar sent me a e-mail saying the teaching of team put IBO’s ar legal risk.
October 25th, 2007 at 9:00 pm
jthompson # 39
“Also i posted a few comments at some of these John Doe sites - like blog.freetheibo - and none of my respectful/disagreeing comments have been posted.”
While I have nothing against you personally I had to laugh at your LUDICROUS statement above. I have read quite a number of your “respectful/disagreeing comments” and forgive me for putting it this way but the only thing that it appears that you know about respectful is how to spell it. You were one of the most disrepectful bloggers that I read.
October 26th, 2007 at 2:01 am
whatever #415,
What glass house?
AEM #416,
I saw and heard rules being broken at Opens and a Seminar. I have personal experience that letter was accurate. You can’t BS me, I know the facts. Don’t even try.
Rich #417,
I think jthompson is long gone. But I know several others who were kicked off, and they are skilled and experienced bloggers who know how to “behave” themselves, and still got kicked off of freetheibo.
October 27th, 2007 at 1:04 am
Tex,
tell me the legal risk Team teaching put me under then.
October 29th, 2007 at 12:24 am
AEM #419,
Why don’t you go back to the termination letters and ask specific questions regarding each reason given, and provide me your best guess why or why not that point is a violation, and then I will comment? You can do the same thing with the comments I made about the Opens and Seminar. I am not going to go to that trouble with you yet again without you putting some effort into the process.
October 29th, 2007 at 11:28 pm
Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah BLah Blah BLAH
November 1st, 2007 at 1:06 pm
tex 420
The burden of proof is on the accuser.
November 2nd, 2007 at 4:22 pm
AEM #422,
The burden of proof is on the terminated IBO.
November 3rd, 2007 at 1:23 pm
You seem to have forgotten what we’re talking about here tex. Quixtar said Team teaching put me at legal risk. What legal risk?
You said “Quixtar told no lies. Name one”. So I said the legal risk statement was one. You told me to go back that up. I’m saying Quixtar made the claim, you backed them up, it’s on the accuser (you in this case) to provide evidence to support the accusation. It’s not on the one being accused to get evidence to support why the accusation is false. This has zero to do with terminated IBO’s. Why would they need to prove the validity of Quitars (and your) accusation?
November 4th, 2007 at 2:01 am
AEM #424,
You seem to have forgotten what we’re talking about here AEM.
I’ve stated a number of times the violations I personally witnessed during Opens and a Seminar. I don’t claim to know all the details of all of the other violations, but I can easily believe them based on what I saw and heard with my own eyes and ears.
Quixtar listed the violations that have gone back 6 years in the termination letters, and there hasn’t been one letter of push back from the Orrin and Co. side. None.
November 9th, 2007 at 9:07 pm
Well, one lost suit today. I can’t wait ’til this one goes down in flames as well.
Can’t Q quit the frivolous lawsuits and just let us go?
November 11th, 2007 at 7:40 pm
All’s quiet in Q land. finally!!!
November 28th, 2007 at 1:55 pm
Jerad #426,
You’ll be let go, after your 6 months are up. It may take longer for Orrin and Co, however.
GR Main line #427,
What do you mean? There’s been lots going on.
November 28th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
Evidently not.
December 18th, 2007 at 10:14 pm
Looks like someone has been silent for a while… wonder why…