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Alticor Media Blog is the official news weblog from the Alticor family of companies.
October 5th, 2007 @ 12:00 pm ET…
Perspection effect
You can post a comment or trackback from your own site.
We respect perspectives. But they can’t hide facts.
First, the “new” Texas case mentioned in “Spaghetti.” This was a brand new case, with TEAM as the plaintiffs, attacking from a whole different angle than they did in California case. Dismissed.
The “other” Texas case: Simmons et al v. Quixtar will be heard de novo – “from the start” – by a new judge, though the previous judge recommended a preliminary injunction.
The California case: Still waiting.
The Michigan case: Our preliminary injunction remains in effect, as does the preliminary injunction won by the IBOAI.
The TROs: By our count, TEAM’s class-action spammers filed for 18 restraining orders in nine different states:
- One, the Simmons case, only has the recommendation for a preliminary injunction. But we’ll give them that one for now.
- Seven were denied, withdrawn or have expired.
- Ten have yet to be decided.
We would count that as one win for the spammers, seven losses, and 10 games still being played.
Orrin Woodward’s class-action ace D.J. Poyfair has been seen in courtrooms in Michigan, California and Texas. He has yet to attend a win.
TEAM trends:
- Fewer leaders. We’ve already commented enough on the dwindling number of plaintiffs in the California case. But you may want to read what Fred Harteis has to add to the discussion.
- Less transparency. When we were in Texas this week, in the course of one day we heard about TEAM; Signature Team Management LLC; Woodward International Networking Systems; and – our favorite – Signature Management Team, LLC, D/B/A TEAM, A Nevada Limited Liability Company.
Now, every corporation can get confusing if you sift through enough paperwork, ours certainly included. But in this instance, we don’t like the way Mr. Woodward’s name jumps in and out of the stack, depending on legal and PR needs. Does Orrin Woodward own these companies? Does he run them? Is he a part of them? Yes. No. Maybe so.
- More business. Or maybe less. There’s that line about “we’re going to a million.” And then there’s what TEAM CEO Robert Dickie and COO Thomas Maguire stated in their Texas affidavits about how business is going: “a deluge of product returns;” customers “calling wanting their money back;” “a significant decrease in tool sales;” attendance “has fallen and events have even been canceled.” Dickie and Maguire claim it is because of our actions; we can’t help but wonder whether attacking us as a pyramid and alienating countless former customers has anything to do with it.
Those are the facts, as best as we can gather them. We welcome your perspectives.
Filed by: Corporate Communications
Posted in: Alticor, Amway, Quixtar, Transformation
October 5th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
History Lesson
I have been in A/Q almost 40 years…. I am embarrassed by the way Q/A is acting!
Judges, Lawyers, Corporate people…do not understand the heart of the business!
Until you have been in the livings rooms STP…..you cannot understand!
You get the HEART by being involved in the homes & lives of others!
Without the HEART…. You are not capable of making correct decisions!
What happened to the HEART of Q/A…. did $$$ or attorneys take over?
Were Orren & Chris making a difference in many lives? …. Absolutely YES!
Because of solid depth was their earned bonus going to be bigger than seasoned high pins?…..
Could be!
Did high seasoned pins get upset because of lose of BMS income?…Could be!
Did many Diamonds join TEAM in the last year? .. YES!
Did TEAM have a fair for all, BSM profit sharing? … YES
Are most Q/A products over priced? …. Yes!
Have other LOS done stacking? …Yes, most of them!
Is foreign business built by stacking? … YES!
Does Q/A do stacking? … Yes, at renewal ever year!
Has PV been decreasing for several years?…. YES!
Incentives? Who is eligible? ….. Q/A’s discretion? Who at Q/A decides?
Did #9 on the 10 Points Tape describe the real IBOAI board? … NO!
Does the IBOAI board have authority in making decisions? … No!
Did Rich DeVos say no changes could be made without 100% board approval? ..YES!
Who has made Rich a liar ???? ….. Someone has!
Does AMWAY have a good name in the living rooms? … Not in any of the states I have STP!
Did the board approve changing the name back to Amway? …. NO!
How many IBO’s are in just for consumption at cost purpose only? …. MOST!
Did I write Doug DeVos my feelings? Yes, but no answer!
Now what could these 2 young honorable men have done that is so bad for all this negative crap to spread all aver the world???
October 5th, 2007 at 12:39 pm
I personally have sent my BSMs back to my upline platinum, since they are no longer approved for use, and that TEAM is a leadership development organization no longer affiliated with any business opportunity.
I assume the refund cheque for the BSMs is coming in the mail.
BSM sales dropped since I know of no one in my organization that is actively sharing the business opportunity with prospects. I would assume this is similar in other organizations.
Wait and see, wait and see.
October 5th, 2007 at 12:45 pm
I’m sorry, I guess I missed it…where are the facts. This is what has happened to me in the last month:
1) My tool business is up over 30%
2) I have been harassed several times by Q.
3) Over 90% of my teammates, like myself, have resigned to follow Orrin and Chris. And more are joining us daily.
4) Harteis story, if true is unfortunant.
5) The “dwindling numbers” theory for the California case is nice spin. I know the truth and am not worried a bit.
6) The cancelling of events is simply “opens” and only temporarily. This is due to trickery and spinning by Q people who infiltrate the meetings. Character. If some numbers are down at other events that is probably due to natural concerns of people until this blows over. Again, I’m not worried a bit.
7) I never had a “customer” call me to want any money back, haven’t heard this from anyone else either. Except of course the $9.00 IBOA dues.
October 5th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
There’s no doubt that TEAM doesn’t have the money to keep this going forever. But everything still rests on the ruling in California. Quite honestly, none of the other cases are even close to the importance of the California case. The implications from that could be very damaging to either party depending on which way the judge rules.
October 5th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
Wait a minnit. Don’t you have those former customers under non-compete agreements yet? Or has their 2 years ran out and they affiliated with other suppliers for consumables.
Or do you mean the marketplace can freely decide?
It’s kinda embarrasing for a multi-billion entity to cry fowl on something they’ve never divulged doncha think?. Let’s see how many entities are under the Alticor umbrella and all the parties with ownership interests.
That’ll happen 2nd Tuesday of next week …
October 5th, 2007 at 1:38 pm
What is the new Plan IBOs/ABOs are now supposed to use?
“Me, You, Six, Four, SUE!!!”?
October 5th, 2007 at 1:56 pm
“Those are the facts, as best as we can gather them.”
SO, I wonder how many Blackwater USA employees Dick asked to infiltrate TEAM meetings. If you don’t know the link between Dick and Blackwater USA, Betsy Devos is the wife of Erik Prince, who founded Blackwater USA. These guys, assumed to be from Blackwater, were “shady characters” who asked obviously pointed at an attempt to “catch” someone violating the contract or a TRO.
It made perfect sense to discontinue “open” meetings, since TEAM doesn’t have a business opportunity to show at this time. There are much better ways to use that meeting time, like having dinner with our leadership mentors, reading great leadership books, or listening to great leadership CD’s.
Alticor/Quixtar/Amway leaders, why don’t we stop all of this bickering and part ways without trying to hurt peoples lives?
The TEAM wants to be the “WalMart of the Internet” by your own admission, and Alticor/Quixtar/Amway does not… so why not just say… OK… you can build your “WalMart of the Internet” and we will be friends. This way, in the future, when a TEAM member shows a business plan to a person who just wants to earn a little extra money by retailing, we could honestly say, “Let me introduce you to a friend of mine in the Amway business, they have a great model for that.”
October 5th, 2007 at 1:58 pm
I wish you could edit your posts here… Please insert the word “questions” after “These guys, assumed to be from Blackwater, were “shady characters” who asked…”
October 5th, 2007 at 2:11 pm
The first and third posts pretty much add the correct perspective to the “facts” as gathered by Q.
October 5th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
I noticed the lawyer for the new Texas lawsuit that was dismissed is named “Homer”.
I wonder what his reaction was when the judge cowboy booted him out of his courtroom.
D-oh!
I also couldn’t find the word “perspection” in the dictionary. Was that an intentional, invented word?
Monette #1,
Can’t you come up with a longer list to prove, even more, how clueless you are?
Greg #2,
I’m sure you’re check is in the mail, but it is being mailed to the Orrinite lawyers flying all over the country, seeing how many cases they can lose in record time, just to make the Guinness records, I would guess.
Thunderstruck #3,
See #2. We’ll have to see if Greg is the exception, or you are. My money is on Greg.
Shaun, #4,
Do you think the CA case will be over soon? I don’t, Quixtar is going to delay and ensure Orrin pays as much as possible to his attorney TEAM, you can bet on that. By the time this case even gets started, there will be so many changes that will have taken place the judge will throw it out. There have already been many changes that make the lawsuit moot.
G #5,
Are you trying to imply the customers are under a contract? Ridiculous.
What is the corp crying foul (fowl is for the birds) on?
MichMan #6,
I show the plan like this: “This is a great business, because the Orrinites were kicked out, and other great changes are also on the way, all of which you can read about on the internet, ….”
amazed #7,
Yes, it’s all a conspiracy, a conspiracy I tell you!
Quixtar stop the bickering? It was ORRIN who filed the lawsuit declaring Quixtar is an illegal pyramid. Give it up.
Also, what makes you think Amway will return to a mostly retail operation? Do you have even a clue of a clue?
October 5th, 2007 at 2:16 pm
Alticor Blogger, just taking a moment away from the main part of my day to say once again that you are spot on with your tone and style. Gotta state the facts and you’ve done that.
Excellent work, keep it up.
October 5th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
Tex
You are the one clueless!
How many livingrooms have you been in to stp?
How many lives & marrages are improved because of you being in their homes?
How many have you seen give up drugs or liquor because you gave them hope?
I do not think you have the heart of this business!
October 5th, 2007 at 2:46 pm
Fred Harteis has every right to explain his position in light of the apparent error that took place. But I have to think he is just as upset about being used as a PR patsy for Amquixway. At no time in his explanation did he mention that he disagrees with the plaintiffs in the CA case…interesting. He also states that..” To be clear, there are issues with which I am concerned that relate to the Quixtar business”..and so on.
My disappointment in all of this is how Soph-moric and immature (not to mention Arrogant) the corporate representation of Alticor has been! I am amazed! I reads like the college intern is in charge of this media blog and the PR. You are losing Quixtar…not in the courts per-say, but in the hearts and minds of the observers of this conflict. It has been said that the highest level of communication is about ideas. The next level is about events and the lowest form of communication is about other people. As far as this bystander can tell, nearly all the communications from Alti-quix-way-tar (talk about being involved in other companies!) has been about events (…”This was a brand new case, with TEAM as the plaintiffs, attacking from a whole different angle than they did in California case. Dismissed…”) and other people (…”TEAM’s class-action spammers”…”Orrin Woodward’s class-action ace D.J. Poyfair”…”Mr. Woodward’s name jumps in and out of the stack, depending on legal and PR needs. Does Orrin Woodward own these companies? Does he run them? Is he a part of them?”…”TEAM CEO Robert Dickie and COO Thomas Maguire stated in their Texas affidavits”). Where are your ideas? As far as I can tell, there are none. Only events and other people to talk about. No matter where I stood before, I can honestly say that I will always follow a leader who speaks of idea’s and purpose and calling. The founders (Rich and Jay) did…and I gladly followed. The “Leaders” of Alticor now?…There are none…just managers and attorneys and PR interns. No one is leading Alticor, and that my fellow Independent Business Owners is the beginning of the end! Looking forward to a LEADERSHIP discussion.
October 5th, 2007 at 3:01 pm
BTW…Tex,
Cut back on the steroids cowboy, they are makin’ you crazy!
October 5th, 2007 at 3:05 pm
As the Bible says “sow to the wind, reap a whirlwind”.
When this mess first started I was sympathetic towards TEAM (I am in BWW) because Q has been heavy handed and ham handed about the whole affair. And I am sure they are scaring the “you know what” out of IBO’s who are on the outside of this mess looking in (and that’s not a good thing. If it’s meant to make an example of TEAM then it also ultimately reflects poorly on Q).
But TEAM’s behavior in this has been absolutely reprehensible, “beyond the pale” and downright dishonest.
The idea of TEAM people continuing to “STP” while they are claiming the company they have “STP’” with is an illegal pyramid defies ALL ethics, morals and logic.
“We hate you, but we’ll still recruit people into our group”. INSANE.
It’s patently obvious that the original strategy by the great god Orrin Woodward was that he gambled that Q would back off because they understand what a PR train wreck this case will be (no matter who wins). And of course Orrin is so self-less that he did all he could to take as many people along for the ride because there is strength in numbers.
Years from now there will be thousands (or more) people who realized they have been coldly used by Orrin and company. This supposed leadership team never provided any quidance beyond “hey we’re jumping off the cliff, without a parachute, so be sure to jump with us”.
Other blogs have warned the IBO’s in TEAM that they BETTER put the needs of their own families ahead of their hero worship of Orrin. People can put on a brave face and watch Orrin’s losses pile up and TEAM people still say “this is all part of the master plan, you just don’t understand the genius of Orrin”.
Guys, there was no plan B. He gambled and it certainly looks like he’s going to lose. You people had better start making your own plans - because I promise you that Orrin intends to look out for number one - just as he has since this whole mess started.
My God bless and help all the individuals and families that are part of TEAM. At the end of the day you are caught in the crossfire on this and that is extremely unfortunate. As individuals, you never asked for this fight. Unfortunately your leaders decided to volunteer all of you without even prepping you in advance.
October 5th, 2007 at 3:26 pm
Monette #1/12,
History Lesson
I have been in A/Q almost 40 years…. I am embarrassed by the way Q/A is acting! ———————- They should have acted this way 40 years ago, then we wouldn’t have had the tool scam now.
Judges, Lawyers, Corporate people…do not understand the heart of the business! ——————————— Sure they do, it’s called bait and switch. Show them the A/Q business as the vehicle of success, then switch to the tools as the real vehicle, just leave out the teenie-weenie detail of notifying your self claimed downline “teammates” and “business partners” of this “oversight”, and make sure it is contractually required to be kept secret by all tool profiteers.
Until you have been in the livings rooms STP…..you cannot understand! ——————————— I’ve been there, I understand.
You get the HEART by being involved in the homes & lives of others! ————————————– First stop scamming them.
Without the HEART…. You are not capable of making correct decisions! —————————– The heartless ones are the tool scammers, give me a break.
What happened to the HEART of Q/A…. did $$$ or attorneys take over? ——————————- The Lying Cowardly “kingpins”, which represent most of the uplines, took it over. Now Q has to get the lawyers involved, the LCK’s mucked it up so much.
Were Orren & Chris making a difference in many lives? …. Absolutely YES! ———————————- Agree here, they ruined thousands of lives, and helped relatively very few, at the expense (literally and figuratively) of the many.
Because of solid depth was their earned bonus going to be bigger than seasoned high pins?…..
Could be! ——————————————- They also made FAR more on tools than Q, many TEAM folks stated that, not just me.
Did high seasoned pins get upset because of lose of BMS income?…Could be! ——————————— What loss of BSM income?
Did many Diamonds join TEAM in the last year? .. YES! ———————————— Sure did, now some of them are booted as well as the original TEAM “leaders”.
Did TEAM have a fair for all, BSM profit sharing? … YES —————————————- How can it be “fair” when it is secret?
Are most Q/A products over priced? …. Yes! ——————————— Some are, many aren’t.
Have other LOS done stacking? …Yes, most of them! ————————– Stacking goes back decades, and there are right and wrong ways to do it.
Is foreign business built by stacking? … YES! —————————- Point?
Does Q/A do stacking? … Yes, at renewal ever year! —————————– What?
Has PV been decreasing for several years?…. YES! ——————————- I think you have a point here, perhaps they don’t have as much money left over after paying all the lawyers because of bonehead IBO moves.
Incentives? Who is eligible? ….. Q/A’s discretion? Who at Q/A decides? ———————————– You follow the rules, you get the incentives. Unlike the secret TEAM tool scam payouts.
Did #9 on the 10 Points Tape describe the real IBOAI board? … NO! ———————- Which tape are you talking about?
Does the IBOAI board have authority in making decisions? … No! ————————————– Since when did they?
Did Rich DeVos say no changes could be made without 100% board approval? ..YES! ———————————- When did he say this? Got a reference?
Who has made Rich a liar ???? ….. Someone has! —————————— You haven’t.
Does AMWAY have a good name in the living rooms? … Not in any of the states I have STP! ———————————- That’s because of the tool scam.
Did the board approve changing the name back to Amway? …. NO! ———————– They don’t have approval authority.
How many IBO’s are in just for consumption at cost purpose only? …. MOST! —————————– Point?
Did I write Doug DeVos my feelings? Yes, but no answer! ———————— Me too, and the answers have been coming ever since. Not directly from Rich, but the corp.
Now what could these 2 young honorable men have done that is so bad for all this negative crap to spread all aver the world??? ———————————– Honorable? They broke numerous rules over a long period of time, wanted to break more on their way out the door, and then filed a lawsuit claiming Quixtar is an illegal pyramid.
Tex
You are the one clueless! ———— See above.
How many livingrooms have you been in to stp? ————— Many.
How many lives & marrages are improved because of you being in their homes? ————————– Lots, and lots more got ripped off via the tool scam.
How many have you seen give up drugs or liquor because you gave them hope? ————— No, but if any had, that is no excuse for the tool scam.
I do not think you have the heart of this business! ————— You wouldn’t have the first clue of a clue.
October 5th, 2007 at 3:26 pm
This is starting to get kidish really why does Q care that we want to be free I mean it is are choice isn’t it? They should not have a say if I want to quit and do something else matter of fact I didn’t get invloved with the buisness to sell soap and pills I wanted to change my life, I wanted to change my thinking, and more importantly I wanted to transfer that feeling to ppl who were in my exact boat and give them HOPE again. Look at they way Q supporters are handling this who cares if this is in court or not what is the RIGHT thing to do just let us go. Just let us do are own thing we don’t want the A name it is one of the worst bussiness decisons I have ever seen done. I would never follow a terrible choice like that one. I also know I didn’t get involved with this to listen to a Devos or any other Q leader because i don’t think they are men of thier word and is why i didn’t vote for him in the first place. I got involved because of the charchter of two men that gave me hope and I knew when they said something it was going to happen no matter what it took. JUST LET US DO ARE OWN THING IT SHOULD NOT MATTER TO YOU (Q/A)!! We will go to a million and beyond BELEIVE IT!!!!
FIRED UP!!!
October 5th, 2007 at 3:37 pm
Common Sense #13/14,
Too bad you don’t have any.
JimZ #15,
Orrin was looking out for number one way before this whole mess started.
October 5th, 2007 at 3:49 pm
Common Sense #13, you may have had a case with some of the earlier intemperate posts by the Alticor Blogger, but not anymore. The tone is simple and straight-forward as with as much respect as the circumstances justfiy, nothing to complain about, and recycling old and no longer valid accusations isn’t working. Wish you well personally, but don’t agree with your take on the above post.
JimZ, you pretty much state my perspective too. I was very much in sympathy with Orrin on certain issues (and many board members who are still on the IBOAI Board) up until I read his California suit — “illegal” and “criminal” organization… just wasn’t true no matter how you looked at it, but certainly intended to be inflammatory and destructive. And in the just junked Texas suit, claiming Alticor has acted with “… an evil motive.” Looks like another judge disagreed and sent them home.
With appreciation,
October 5th, 2007 at 3:53 pm
Tex #5:
I thought for SURE you’d recognize sarcasm when you saw it … ya proved me wrong?
The “bird” reference?
“Less transparency. When we were in Texas this week, in the course of one day we heard about TEAM; Signature Team Management LLC; Woodward International Networking Systems; and – our favorite – Signature Management Team, LLC, D/B/A TEAM, A Nevada Limited Liability Company.
Now, every corporation can get confusing if you sift through enough paperwork, ours certainly included. But in this instance, we don’t like the way Mr. Woodward’s name jumps in and out of the stack, depending on legal and PR needs. Does Orrin Woodward own these companies? Does he run them? Is he a part of them? Yes. No. Maybe so.”
This is the reference. At least there is disclosure. And perhaps moves to seperate Orrin (the lightning rod) from the entities.
For goodness sakes folks … there was a “JayRi” in the past as well. And now Q* is incorporated in Delaware - was Michigan. Ohmygawd - must be a conspiracy.
Having been involved in business for several decades (not just this biz) I’ve seen many corps re-organize, restructure, etc.
Unfortunately mudslinging is occuring on both sides. If you dye mud purple, it’s still mud.
October 5th, 2007 at 4:01 pm
Common Sense #13, one more point. Re-read Fred’s entire post at the IBOAI Blog. It’s clear that when Orrin’s people presented a draft lawsuit to Mike Mohr at Alticor’s offices WITHOUT Fred Harteis’ name on it, they simultaneously had another version of the same suit (read all the previous depositions at freetheibo site) waiting to be filed in California WITH his name included. His name was NOT added to the California suit, I would suggest to you that it was ALREADY on it at the moment the first version was shown to Mike Mohr. That’s the definition of deviousness and disingenuousness. Fred is nobody’s PR patsy, although it may make one feel better to say that.
October 5th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
In the 80’s our President Ronald Reagan said that USSR would end up on the ash heaps of history, they would go bankrupt, they would end up as nothing. Most media sites and politicians laughed at him. In the early 90’s, it happened. Then everyone that laughed suddenly said “of course” as if they could predict it. After most media sites and politicians found a way of proving they were always in agreement with Reagan despite the fact that they argued with his view for more than a decade, most Reaganites merely laughed and made fun of their short sightedness and inability to grasp basic fundamental economic policies. When do you think we are all going to laugh at Tex for doing the same and how do you think he will prove that he agreed with TEAM the whole time? Sorry Tex, love ya and some of your jokes, but you just don’t see what we do. We’ll see you in about a decade, maybe sooner.
October 5th, 2007 at 4:04 pm
Tex-
It is not just the TEAM people that Amway/Quixtar has rolled over.
AQA terminated Crown Ambassador Kenny Stewart, Double Diamond Brig Hart and Diamond (EDC) Charlie Schmidt.
(Plus lots of other ‘lower level’ diamonds.)
October 5th, 2007 at 4:14 pm
15. JimZ
I bet the same things you say are EXACTLY what was said by the Torries against the revolutionist Founding Fathers of this country.
Since it is obvious you have never talked to your fellow Child of God Orrin Woodward, none of your comments deserve a response.
October 5th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
Folk, take a moment to read the affidavit’s linked to above. The pressure seems to have gotten to the TEAM folk - delusional is the word that comes to mind! TEAM CEO Robert Dickie III says their “customers” are worried about losing their businesses because of Quixtar’s letters. uhuh - and filing a lawsuit calling that very business an illegal pyramid causes no confusion and apprehension? TEAM COO Thomas Maguire expresses his surprise that “the organization they support” would send such emails! You know, the organization they’re suing calling an illegal pyramid.
Simply bizarre - more on TTAA
October 5th, 2007 at 4:41 pm
fuddman #17,
You can go a million AFTER you get your head handed to you on a platter at arbitration. Good luck, you’ll need lots of it.
john jay franklin #22,
A decade? I’ll be impressed if you last a year or two.
MichMan #23,
I know their stories, or at least what is available on the internet. They were booted over tool profits. See the pattern?
Matt #24,
And we’re still waiting for the prodigal son, Orrin, to get out of the hog slop and come back home. Perhaps getting the CA lawsuit dismissed WITH PREJUDICE will shake him up enough to “come home” (just to his senses, not as an IBO). But I’m not betting on it, he seems to enjoy rolling around in the mud.
October 5th, 2007 at 4:42 pm
ps, I’d like to add my thanks to the Alticor blogger for “improving the tone” in recent weeks. The first few posts on this issue were a little over the top and probably did more harm than good.
Recent posts have been much improved - keep up the good work.
October 5th, 2007 at 4:42 pm
ibofb #25,
Spare us your analysis, the lawsuit was dismissed, WITH PREJUDICE.
October 5th, 2007 at 4:52 pm
Tex, I made no analysis of the lawsuit at all. I simply commented on the fact that the TEAM CEO and COO were claiming their support for IBOs running Quixtar businesses and indeed Quixtar itself while at the same time having launched an attempted class action claiming Quixtar is an illegal pyramid.
Can anyone say “cognitive dissonance”?
Which lawsuit being dismissed with prejudice are you talking about btw? The Texas one I assume? Or is there news on the California front?
October 5th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
geez … I pause to get something to eat … case dismissed! So don’t bother answering the question Tex!
October 5th, 2007 at 4:57 pm
IBOFB: Take a gander.
Eating? What’s that like?
October 5th, 2007 at 5:09 pm
Admin: Quite good actually. Some time this week I plan on trying sleeping as well!
Funnily enough, reading the decision, one of the reasons why the judge threw out the case was because Woodward et.al. simultaneously claimed Q* was an illegal pyramid but also stated they had no interest in closing it down or seeking other relief. I’m apparently not the only one who saw the bizarreness of their cognitive dissonance.
Any chance of any updates on the other California case? Gone to arbitration? Moved forward? Stalled?
October 5th, 2007 at 5:51 pm
FINALLY!!
Notice the judge never said Quixtar wasn’t an illegal pyramid scheme!!!?!?!
Now we can go to 1 MILLION PEOPLE!!
October 5th, 2007 at 6:35 pm
ibofb #32,
Why would Orrin even think of doing anything but separate from an illegal operation, he already runs a dishonest, unethical, and immoral one, his tool scam? He probably admires it, deep inside his being, if even from afar. Just GO, TEAM.
But it is interesting how going for less contributed to his cause getting less attention from the judge.
Brilliant attorney he must have. Wonder if he’ll be involved in the arbitration? We may never know.
SPARTAN #33,
The judge never said pigs can’t fly, either. But I don’t think we’ll be eating pigs wings any time soon.
October 5th, 2007 at 6:47 pm
IBOFB: Straight from Legal:
“No information yet. We are still waiting for Judge Conti to rule. While not precedent that Conti must follow, it is helpful that Judge Feess has considered and ruled in Quixtar’s favor on similar issues.”
October 5th, 2007 at 7:59 pm
Tex
Did high seasoned pins get upset because of lose of BMS income?…Could be! ——————— What loss of BSM income? — A. The King Pins lose, when their downline leaders left to go with Team who did pay a fair profit sharing.
Incentives? Who is eligible? ….. Q/A’s discretion? Who at Q/A decides? ——————— You follow the rules, you get the incentives. Unlike the secret TEAM tool scam payouts. —
A. They can & do change the rules, they have several times during the years.
Did TEAM have a fair for all, BSM profit sharing? … YES ————————— How can it be “fair” when it is secret? — A. It is not a secret to those who draw profit sharing & the only reason it is secret to others is because the Q/A rules prevent Team from telling. They would love to tell!
Does Q/A do stacking? … Yes, at renewal ever year! —————————– What? — A. When someone does not renew, their downline move upline, many times we did not know the person and never would of sponsored that person on our own, but was still responsiable for training, motivating and supply at our expense but Amway owns us and them.
Did #9 on the 10 Points Tape describe the real IBOAI board? … NO! ———————- Which tape are you talking about? —- A. “The 10 Points tape” by Rich DeVos and sold by Amway.
Does the IBOAI board have authority in making decisions? … No! ——————— Since when did they? —- A. Acording to Rich DeVos, since 1959, before Amyay was formed, the board was formed so no changes could be made without the boards 100% approval.
Did Rich DeVos say no changes could be made without 100% board approval? ..YES! —————— When did he say this? Got a reference?—-
A. Rich told me personally several times plus it was #9 on the “10 Points Tape.”
Who has made Rich a liar ???? ….. Someone has! ————— You haven’t.—- A.Someone did!
Now what could these 2 young honorable men have done that is so bad for all this negative crap to spread all aver the world??? ———————————– Honorable? They broke numerous rules over a long period of time, wanted to break more on their way out the door, and then filed a lawsuit claiming Quixtar is an illegal pyramid.—- A. They broke no rules that other LOS’s have not broken, on the way out the door they tried to save others from the pain and suffering we have all gone through, wanting all those who renew to read or get an attorney to read the “Rules of Conduct” and “the Code of Ethics” so they will know what they are really signing. If someone wants to agree to adhere to those 90 plus pages… so be it! The changes made were never disclosed to us over the years as they were changed.
October 5th, 2007 at 8:06 pm
Thanks admin. “Helpful” is an understatement I would imagine.
October 5th, 2007 at 9:47 pm
Monette #36,
Seasoned pins, such as Ron Hale, who lost secret tool scam money to the secret Orrin tool scam? Cry me a river.
Of course they change the rules, things happen inside and outside of the business that require changes to be made. Where do you live, in a monastery?
Which rule prevents them from telling all IBO’s about the scam?
You consider when someone drops out as stacking, interesting.
Is “The 10 Points tape” still available, or can you quote what the 9th point says, exactly?
You don’t have a reference for this, do you?
Rich DeVos said I did such a great job on this blog I’m getting half his inheritance.
Someone made him a liar, or perhaps “someone” (you) heard what they wanted to hear, not what he said.
I agree other LOS’s have probably broken all the rules TEAM broke, but not to the numbers and “repeat offender” level TEAM did. If they wanted to “save others from the pain and suffering we have all gone through”, they would have lowered tool prices, then they would have had some moral authority to demand lower product prices, but they didn’t do that, did they? TEAM and many other LOS/LOA’s could easily conduct teaching on the rules, but then they would have to actually cover things like retail. I also think A/Q could have done a better job at this, and should contact IBO’s via the site and/or e-mail when the rules, and interpretations to the rules, change.
I too was literally taught to ignore the rules, my upline said they could explain the rules better than reading them, the rules are complex and confusing (which they are), why spend your valuable time reading boring rules when you could be showing the plan, etc., etc.
October 5th, 2007 at 9:54 pm
Alticor Media Blog moderator,
Thank you for the tactful way you worded it.
You presented the facts rightly so, and were respectful in your comments.
Sincerely,
Ros
October 5th, 2007 at 10:13 pm
Dear Monette # 1
While I respect your years of being involved in both Amway and Quixtar,
I am absolutely shocked by your harsh and disrespectful tone.
While I have not been around 40 years as you have (almost, but not quite as long), I greatly appreciate all that Amway and Quixtar stand for and what they have done for our businesses.
No Monette, I must respectfully disagree with you, Amway and Quixtar have acted honorable and just. Orrin and Chris have not.
I must also agree with Tex (although not his harsh wording) that you are amiss in your claims. Specifically regarding Quixtar and also Orrin and Chris.
These men did not act honorably when they filing the lawsuit in CA.
They know full well it is full of false allegations, the very same actions to which they themselves were actively engaged in for over 13 years.
I’m sorry, but these are not the actions of men acting honorably.
Respectfully,
Ros
October 5th, 2007 at 10:24 pm
Do not worry! Quixtar can not hurt us…I am sure this is a blessing. Things have never been better for us so I am sure it is that way all around the board……..GO TEAM! I am off to read some more. Just needed a break to check this silly blog…
October 5th, 2007 at 11:42 pm
Tex
Go to http://theiborebellion.blogspot.com on Wed. Sept. 12, 2007 and listen to Point 9 of the Ten Points. Some of us old timers still have the tape. We loved Rich and Jay. We would of fought for them, we stood up for them and the company and we spent every minute we could with them. Yes Amway/Quixtar was really good for us, our business peaked in 1995, when it became harder to retail and to sponsor. I have had a personal 300 to 500 monthly PV for many years. I do know the company, as it was and as it is now. I am sad….
October 6th, 2007 at 12:30 am
Negative Nancy #41,
I don’t think you have even started to feel the pain the arbitration process will cause for Orrin and all of his Orrinites. Both of them.
October 6th, 2007 at 1:45 am
Monette #1, etc.
Some of the best posts I have seen in the last almost 2 months. Thanks for the insight.
October 6th, 2007 at 2:04 am
As an outside observer, actually part of another LOS, I am deeply saddened by what Quixtar has become.
There is a difference between a ‘family’ and a ‘corporation’. This business used to have a family feel, now it is just another corporation.
So the next time I STP with someone, how do I address the infantile squabbling and babbling that seems to have taken over what used to be a precious business?
October 6th, 2007 at 11:47 am
Ros,
A couple of questions for you.
Did Q/Amway act honorably in all ways?
Outside of filing the lawsuit instead of going to arbitration, did Orrin/TEAM do anything wrong?
Just wondering what your thoughts are about this. Thanks!
October 6th, 2007 at 12:48 pm
DLSChicago #46, I’m not speaking for Ros, he can reply when he gets here, but my take is that with the exception of the intemperate and emotionally reactive posts at the beginning here on the Alticor Blog… Rob Zeigler’s in particular… Quixtar and Alticor have acted honorably. Note too that Quixtar and Alticor do have different and separate PR departments and blog sites. The Quixtar bloggers, led by Beth Dornan and Robin Luymes, have been exemplary in tone and content. And I have no problems with the last couple of postings here on the Alticor Blog. The IBOAI has been reasonable in tone as well, in my opinion.
With appreciation,
October 6th, 2007 at 2:11 pm
Blog Administrator/Moderator -
Would you please stop being misleading in your post?
The Simmons et al V Quixtar will not be re-heard de novo by a new judge. As you (or at least the lawyers) should know that under the law a Magistrate Judge (a federal judge hired by the court to help with the case load) issues a recommendation to a sitting Federal District Court Judge. This is not a de novo review as you suggested and there has not been ordered a new hearing under a new judge. Your information is false and misleading. Either side can object to Judge Bush’s recommendation, which in this case Quixtar has. They objected because Judge Bush recommended an Injunction against them from interferring with my business or that of my downline in regards to our use of Team produced materials or attending Team sponsored meetings. In addition Quixtar can not withhold bonuses due us.
During this time that the Court is reviewing Quixtar’s objections the Restraining Order remains in effect against Quixtar.
This is one of seveal misleading and in some cases totally false statements that you have made in your blogs over the last couple of months, I urge you again to correct your error and discontinue posting misleading and/or false statements.
Thank you
Ron Simmons
October 6th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
Tex
What makes you think anyone who was either terminated or resigned would participate in arbitration ? What could possibly come from it?
October 6th, 2007 at 4:47 pm
Monette #42,
The link doesn’t work. Is this the “Directly Speaking” tape? If so, tapes I and II condemns the tool scam and never says the ADA Board approved anything, only represents the IBO’s and gives their input, not approval. I have listened to both tapes, by the way.
Utah #44,
Monette was so far off-base, it isn’t even funny.
cslason #45,
Tell them we’re in the middle of cleaning up the tool scam, which has been known by the corp for well over a quarter of a century, just kicked out one of the abusers, and we have a lot more work to do Also, it will be a little messy until it’s over, because the blogging world is a lot like a courtroom, where almost anything goes.
DLSChicago #46,
Did Q/Amway act honorably in all ways? No, they should have shut down the tool scam over a quarter of century ago, because they said they would, but didn’t.
Outside of filing the lawsuit instead of going to arbitration, did Orrin/TEAM do anything wrong? Yeah, they broke many rules, over and over again, then wanted permission to break more on their way out.
rdknyvr #47,
Robin and Beth are too low on the food chain to be effective, and come across as a couple of “Little Miss Goodie Two Shoes” (No disrespect intended to Robin, who is male). I place the definition of “Little Miss Goodie Two Shoes” on another post earlier today.
Ron #48,
Long time, no see. Glad you’re back and being your usual hyper-technical self, but you need to address the issues of:
1. Whether the TEAM tool contract requirement of keeping the tool profits secret is part of the current practice,
2. Whether this item was requested/supported by Quixtar,
3. Why so many TEAM folks have bragged on how much tool profit they make if this is supposed to be secret, and
4. If Quixtar requested this clause, why TEAM didn’t reduce the tool prices, such that most profit would come from Quixtar, not the tool scam.
You can wait to respond until today’s TEAM IBO recruitment meeting, um, I mean, “Monthly Seminar”, is completed, as a little “birdie” told me about. Say Hi to Jerrel and Leslie, assuming they flew out to be the speakers.
October 6th, 2007 at 4:59 pm
Tex
The clock is running for all of us who want out, as well as all who want to stay in. By the way how could someone who has had only one personally sponsored IBO know all the things you purport to know? Also, your previous statement regarding the cost of DVD’s produced by Team vs A/Q is pretty far off base. I searched quixand for DVD’s the results were 3.
400649 - The Facts About Quixtar DVD $37.50
40061 - Artistry® Face Time DVD $7.00
406033 - Introduction to Personalized Health DVD $3.00
Thats an average cost of $15.83
Ironic that the facts about Quixtar dvd is so highly priced that no one will buy it.
October 6th, 2007 at 7:14 pm
#48 Ron S.
Thanks for the truth. The Alticor Corporate Communications has been telling 1/2 truths for months, nothing new. Even the pro Amway IBOs have wondered why he/she hasn’t been fired. I think they are the founder kids and can’t be.
October 6th, 2007 at 7:50 pm
Mark, post #51, I’m assuming you’re a TEAM affiliated IBO, in which case after weeks of reading TEAM affidavits and blog posts/comments I’m not at all surprised at how unfamiliar you are with tools like the “Facts About Quixtar” DVD.
Yes, it’s $37.50 - for a pack of 25. That’s $1.50 each. Care to redo your math?
October 6th, 2007 at 9:13 pm
Mark #49,
What makes you think anyone who was either terminated or resigned would have a choice whether to participate in arbitration? Quixtar will hold arbitration proceedings, whether TEAM is present or not.
What could possibly come from it? Quixtar could ask the arbitrator to determine so much damage was done by Orrin’s lawsuit and various web sites, that the normal 6 month/2 year limits should be increased to 2-3 TIMES that length, or order a fine against TEAM that would put these guys in the poor house (I recommend they pay the money back to IBO’s in proportion to the number of Alticor blog posts made by IBO’s supporting Alticor, but that’s just me).
If Orrin thinks his darkest days are behind him, because of the CA court dismissing his lawsuit, he is sadly mistaken. He hasn’t seen squat, but he will, and wonder why he made the bonehead mistake of claiming Quixtar is an illegal pyramid for the rest of his natural life.
Mark #51,
I have had many more than one IBO, I had one active IBO at the time they requested to get stacked. Why didn’t you address the related factors around this request?
Also, your previous statement regarding the cost of DVD’s produced by Team vs A/Q is pretty far off base. I searched quixand for DVD’s the results were 3.
400649 - The Facts About Quixtar DVD $37.50 That’s for 25 of them, get a clue. That’s $1.50 each.
40061 - Artistry® Face Time DVD $7.00 That is for 1, but I’ll bet Quixtar doesn’t promote every IBO get their own copy.
406033 - Introduction to Personalized Health DVD $3.00 That’s for one, same comment as above.
Do you try to lie intentionally, or are you just not very bright?
Ironic that the facts about Quixtar dvd is the lowest priced of the three, and you thought it was the most expensive.
October 7th, 2007 at 1:27 am
Tex- I see you’re still popping off like a third grader. The fact is the Quixtar tools are garbage. They lack any real inspiration! Even more alarming is the ridiculous requirement by Amquix (bi-polar corporation)for new IBO’s to purchase tools. Now slow down haas! Amquix is making every IBO purchase the stupid QBOB and pass it out to prospective IBO’s! It’s ok, I too used to defend this corp until they way they made a mess out of this!
October 7th, 2007 at 1:30 am
rdknyvr #47
Not even hiding the fact your paid for by AMWAY? If the deal is so good, then why do they need professional bloggers? Wouldn’t all the satisfied and retired IBO’s come running to their rescue? Oh wait! Those retirees had to go back to work….I’m sorry I forgot about that pie plate spinning shrinking income issue!
October 7th, 2007 at 9:33 am
Tex,
What is wrong with your computer?
Utah Says:
October 6th, 2007 at 1:45 am
Monette #1, etc.
Some of the best posts I have seen in the last almost 2 months. Thanks for the insight.
Tex Says:
October 6th, 2007 at 4:47 pm
Monette #42,
The link doesn’t work. Is this the “Directly Speaking” tape? If so, tapes I and II condemns the tool scam and never says the ADA Board approved anything, only represents the IBO’s and gives their input, not approval. I have listened to both tapes, by the way.
— A.No, it is not the Directly Speaking Tape, I have those also. You just listen to #9 on “10 Points tape” and you will understand,
http://theiborebellion.blogspot.com then go to Wed. Sept. 12, 2007 and listen to Point 9 of the Ten Points.
October 7th, 2007 at 11:25 pm
Tex
to answer #54. (I recommend they pay the money back to IBO’s in proportion to the number of Alticor blog posts made by IBO’s supporting Alticor, but that’s just me).
Great that shouldn’t cost more than just a few bucks for the three of you ( although the corp will probably make you give it to them, as I think you are an employee)
October 7th, 2007 at 11:26 pm
Monette:
Excellent posts! Only those of us who have sat in the living rooms night after night can relate. Thank you! Thank You!
October 8th, 2007 at 12:51 am
SPANISH GROUP’S ARE ON TEAM WAY!!!!
FOLLOW THE LEADERSHIP,NOT THE POSSITION.
GO TEAM GO..
October 8th, 2007 at 5:01 am
What does “dismissed *with prejudice*” mean?
October 8th, 2007 at 10:50 am
To Monette #1:
Woodward and others, the owners/ founders of TEAM, launched a legal action against Q, saying that Q is an illegal pyramid.
Then Woodward and others resign from the legal entities, which incorporates TEAM BSM.
These legal entities now sue Q, saying that Q is damaging their business?!? How can the left hand charge that it is an illegal business, while the left hand continues making money out of it!!!
October 8th, 2007 at 12:21 pm
Quixkicked #56, thanks for the compliment, I’ve been laughing with delight for the last half hour!!! YES YES YES, I do receive a cheque from Quixtar — it’s called a MONTHLY BONUS PAYMENT based on my differential and retail profit, which is based on the WORK I put into my Quixtar, soon to be Amway business!!!
Now, if you had been half as pissed of as I was back when the Alticor Blog first posted it’s original “Just go, TEAM” post (you can still read my acid commentary over on that thread, I think), and had inquired through your upline about who was blogging over there, and if you had been on the Opportunity Zone when they first started blogging back in the spring, you would know that they are very different departments and people. If you are in Team, your upline COULD have told you this, had you asked.
And if you were concerned about doing proper “due diligence” on this opportunity and not just swallowing everything you are told, you might even have been careful enough to put the addresses of Quxitar and Alticor into Google Earth and found out they are even in different buildings, or at least they are as far as I can tell.
Any maybe you might also have made the effort to travel to the Los Angles area as I did a year and a half ago to see with my own eyes whether Nutrilite was actually manufactured in a pharmaceutical grade facility, and to verify claims that Alticor made, so you wouldn’t get blown away be false or misleading stories about the Alticor organization.
If you want to benefit from more of my “professional” blogging (thanks again for the compliment), you can check me out on several threads over at the Opportunity Zone, and also at IBOFightBack’s excellent site. If you want to know the secret to making money on retail sales with Alticor, read what some of my friends over there have written as well (friends I’ve never met, but friends nevertheless).
http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/
And finally, if you really want to know what I’m doing, go to IBOFightBack’s site and read through the thread in the “Nutrilite and Nutriway” forum on “Personalized Health, Yours” and maybe you’ll see what’s really going on in this business.
http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,91/func,view/id,7228/catid,10/
Finally, yes, I know I’ve been a bit sarcastic above, hopefully you won’t take it too personally, maybe you’ll also get a bit of a chuckle out of it, and hopefully in time all this bitterness will blow over and both of us will be successful in whatever business venture we each choose to pursue.
Genuine blessings to you for a great day!!!
PS. have you seen the new Quixtar Webcast?
http://www.podiumsystems.com/hosted/quixtar/leadertoleader.asp?r=1
October 8th, 2007 at 2:34 pm
Piet, type in “Prejudice (law)” at Wikipedia for a good explanation. The key graph there is:
“… ‘with prejudice’ means that a party’s legal rights have in fact been determined and lost. To continue the same example, if instead the court had jurisdiction, but the plaintiff did not appear for the trial, the court would dismiss the case “with prejudice”. That dismissal is a judgment against the plaintiff “on the merits” of the case, and extinguishes the claim that was being sued over. However, this does not prevent an appeal or a trial de novo if ordered by a higher court.”
October 8th, 2007 at 2:46 pm
PS Piet, in Canada and some other Commonwealth countries, it would also mean that the loser is now liable for the costs and damages incurred by the winner. So if you are sued, when you file your defense, at the same time you counter-sue for costs and damages, which you usually get if your defense is successful. This process tends to put a bit of a damper on filing frivolous and meritless suits, but not always.
October 8th, 2007 at 3:21 pm
Quixkicked #55,
I’m still popping off like a third grader, but you’re still losing the arguments. The fact is the Quixtar tools are great.
They don’t lack any real inspiration, they are meant to teach!
Even more alarming is the ridiculous requirement by Amquix (bi-polar corporation)for new IBO’s to purchase tools? Where have you seen that? The QBOB is a legal requirement, not an optional tool.
Now slow down haas! Amquix isn’t making every IBO purchase the stupid QBOB and pass it out to prospective IBO’s! See above, they also send these out free to all IBO’s and will send out more free to IBO’s as they register folks. The cost of these are a drop in the bucket compared to the tool scam.
It’s ok, I still defend this corp, the way they made some great moves recently.
Quixkicked #56,
Liar, he never said he was paid by Amway.
Monette #57,
I tried my other computer, and it worked.
You are sadly mistaken. Rich talked about rewarding the time, effort, and energy folks put into an AMWAY business by creating the ADA Board. He never said they would reward tool scammers.
This was made in about 1972, things changed when the tool scammers rose to power. He talked about cooperation between Amway and the ADA, and how if others copied the example, it “would change the world”, and he was right.
Problem is, the tool scammers got greedy, and Amway had to reduce the amount of control they had.
This is well covered in the “Directly Speaking” tapes made about a decade or so later.
You lose that argument, you tried to take a dated statement that was true at the time, but had to be changed when the tool scammers got big. One must take things in the context they were created, not as isolated statements.
If you take a single verse from the Bible, it instructs you to kill your own kids if they don’t obey you. Did you follow that verse?
Mark #58,
Wrong. Next.
Mary Ann #59,
Wrong, see above.
piet #61,
Google it.
piet #62,
I think the TEAM plaintiffs are the individuals, not the TEAM corp. This will come back to bite them in the rear in the arbitration proceedings.
October 8th, 2007 at 5:25 pm
Tex #66
QBOB’s are free….then your next line “The cost of these are a drop in the bucket compared to the tool scam.” Tex, you poor lost soul you can’t even keep your stories stright in the same post! As for the QBOB being a legal requirement..FCC never mentioned QBOB, Quixtar created the document and deemed it “legal”. Very similar to the SA-4400 Team that Quixtar deemed legal! Come on now Haas! You should have easily known that one!
October 8th, 2007 at 11:11 pm
Tex -
Got a GREAT idea!
After all this has blown over, and all the terrible folks have been dealt with, I think we ought to invite any potential IBO teammate you might run across to come take a look at how you interact with folks who do not agree with your opinions 100%. It ought to do wonders for your sponsoring rate going forward …
October 8th, 2007 at 11:41 pm
Tex:
Try reading “The Greatest Salesman in The World”. Chapter One, three times a day, for 30 days.
October 8th, 2007 at 11:50 pm
#67 Quixkicked:
Actually, Tex is correct on both accounts.
To order a pack of 5 QBOBs costs $2.50 (free shipping). However, you receive a free pack of 5 for every 3rd IBO you register.
October 9th, 2007 at 12:14 am
Tex:
#50 “we have a lot more work to do”
We? You got a mouse in your pocket or just a corporate lawyer? Don’t answer that. If you are an IBO, and only an IBO, you don’t have a d***ed thing to say about what is going to happen between Quixway/Amtar and any other IBO. “We have . . .”, my a**. However, I suspect that you are not an IBO at all. (Apologies to all others. I have a low BS threshold and Tex has crossed it.)
#54 “Quixtar will hold arbitration proceedings, whether TEAM is present or not.”
Of course, they will. Just terminate TEAM, then arbitrate after the fact in the same one-sided fashion that corporate has been operating on for some time. I’m getting a clearer picture of the “New” Quixtar/Amway every day.
Attention Corporate! You CAN’T terminate me. That’s right. (Slaves have to be sold. Isn’t that what you do with property, sell it?)
Also, be careful what you say about Monette. She is one of my uplines and I’ve known her for decades. I’ll take her over the current crop for corporate shills any day and twice on Sunday. You don’t have a clue who she is and what she had done in this business.
October 9th, 2007 at 12:24 am
Welcome, William… word to the wise: Even with the asterisks, you might want to tone it down a notch. Thanks.
October 9th, 2007 at 12:50 am
Quixkicked
Tex
GirlPower
and anyone else who gives a rip,
The QBOB can be downloaded for FREE. At the Quixtar site, click on More Info, and you’ll see links of PDFs in English, Chinese, and Korean.
Good for emailing to show the plan at a distance.
And I guess you can print it out if you have a nice laser color printer and if you don’t want to part with two shiny quarters.
October 9th, 2007 at 12:53 am
What’s the difference between:
Alticor Media Blog Administrator
and
Corporate Communications?
October 9th, 2007 at 1:39 am
Monette [#42, 57]
Regarding Rich’s 9th point on the “10 Points” tape, a section of it goes like this:
“ . . . we wanted to make sure that the people that put their time and effort and energy into building an Amway distributorship would have a voice in the sales policy of this company. . . . We did that so you would feel secure that somebody like Jay or myself, when we got fat and happy, or something, might decide to change the deal.”
You probably didn’t hear about Rich’s surprise visit to an IBOAI Board meeting a while back, where I was told (by someone who was there) he said, “What have you guys done with my business?”
The big Pin System leaders are the ones who changed the deal. They stopped teaching how to build an Amway/Quixtar business as it was designed with a balance between retail sales of premium products and recruitment to do the same, and instead, changed to teaching a business of personal consumption of discount products (their words, not Amway’s) and recruitment to do the same. They put their tool business ahead of their A/Q business.
That’s how THEY changed the game.
Amway/Quixtar was Mr. Nice Guy for too long. They didn’t say anything; pretended it didn’t exist. Now, Steve Van Andel, Doug DeVos and Jim Payne have decided take off the gloves, and it’s about time.
These System leaders aren’t putting “their time and effort and energy into building an Amway distributorship,” they’re putting their time, effort, and energy into building a motivational system. That includes Team, BWW, Network 21, and others.
In fact, I believe that any IBOAI Board Member whose system is the focus of their time, effort, and energy instead of their Quixtar business, and who doesn’t teach a balanced business with retailing as a strong component, should not be on the board due to a conflict of interest. The reason being, that the decisions they vote on and the suggestions made to Quixtar are made with their tools profit in mind rather than the Quixtar business income.
Additionally, the Board is constructed differently now as opposed to when “10 Points” was recorded. Rich and Jay, as distributors themselves, were on the Board. Later, when they left the Board, the corporation chose half the members and the other half were elected. Now it’s total election, which means the organizations with the most qualified Platinums, get their people on the Board.
I’m an Independent, and we don’t have anybody on the Board that doesn’t run a tool system to be our voice. Is that right?
I wish Point 9 were still valid, but it isn’t right now. And it’s not Quixtar’s doing.
October 9th, 2007 at 1:44 am
Sorry. It’s either too much caffine or too much of the ‘All Tex, all the time’ channel.
October 9th, 2007 at 8:26 am
Moderator,
While I don’t think asterisks are necessary ( because the letters they represent form words we shouldn’t have to use ), I find it comical that you’ll caution William (#71), but allow Tex to say anything short of racial and/or gender slurs. And he’s pushing that.
Calling people liars, stupid, etc. doesn’t appear to trip your trigger at all. Evidently, it trips one for William. Can’t say I blame him.
Tex doesn’t attack people on the positions they hold, as much as personal merits…. which he clearly is not privy too, since he doesn’t know any of us personally.
But whoops, that’s right. He’s one of the 5 or 6 people on these blogs who bad mouths Team. Simple explanation.
October 9th, 2007 at 8:52 am
Quixkicked #67,
I said every IBO gets a free QBOB, not all of them are free. Quixkicked, you poor lost soul you can’t even read to the third grade level!
As for the QBOB being a legal requirement..FCC never mentioned QBOB, Quixtar created the document and deemed it “legal”. —- First of all, it’s the FTC, not FCC. Secondly, the FTC does require various disclosures, and the QBOB provides this information.
Very similar to the SA-4400 Team that Quixtar deemed legal! Come on now Haas! You should have easily known that one! —- The TEAM SA-4400 wasn’t the problem, it was all of the other rules they broke, “Haas”.
G #68,
After all this has blown over, and all the terrible folks have been dealt with, I’ll go off and build my Amway business.
Mary Ann #69,
Try reading “The Golden Rule” three times a day, for 30 days.
GirlPower #70,
Thanks for checking into the details.
William #70,
We? You got a mouse in your pocket or just a corporate lawyer? —- Both.
Don’t answer that. —- Oops, it’s too late, I already did.
If you are an IBO, and only an IBO, you don’t have a d***ed thing to say about what is going to happen between Quixway/Amtar and any other IBO. —- Of course I have a darned thing to say, I have the First Amendment and the reputation of the business to protect. It’s people like you that don’t understand that are part of the problem. Quixtar rules even told me it’s not any of my business. I corrected them, and we continued the discussion.
“We have . . .”, my a**. However, I suspect that you are not an IBO at all. (Apologies to all others. I have a low BS threshold and Tex has crossed it.) —- It’s not just your Amway (that is what the A** means, right?). It’s also my Amway. Why don’t you ask me a question only an IBO who has access to the site could answer? I’ll prove you wrong.
#54 “Quixtar will hold arbitration proceedings, whether TEAM is present or not.”
Of course, they will. Just terminate TEAM, then arbitrate after the fact in the same one-sided fashion that corporate has been operating on for some time. I’m getting a clearer picture of the “New” Quixtar/Amway every day. —- That’s a great idea. No different than a court, you can be put on trial, even if you don’t show up. The judges are not amused when you don’t show up. If you think Orrin has a big ego, just get on the wrong side of a judge….
Attention Corporate! You CAN’T terminate me. That’s right. (Slaves have to be sold. Isn’t that what you do with property, sell it?) —- It’s closer to Donald Trump “You’re Fired!”
Also, be careful what you say about Monette. She is one of my uplines and I’ve known her for decades. I’ll take her over the current crop for corporate shills any day and twice on Sunday. You don’t have a clue who she is and what she had done in this business. —- Monette is clueless, perhaps she has been around for too long and has lost the big picture, if she ever had it in the first place.
CC #72,
What did William do wrong? What’s wrong with “darned” and “Amway”?
October 9th, 2007 at 2:17 pm
Bridgett #73,
I thought that was available, but I couldn’t find it. Could you provide some additional details where the pdf is located? Because it is multipage and full color, it may cost about fifty cents to print it out, when you consider the paper (probably wouldn’t want to use regular paper) and ink costs.
The Big Apple #75,
Well said. I was kicked off the IBOAI Board blog for having that position. Are you going to give me a call?
William #76,
Or use of too few facts.
dannie #77,
I have been required to modify some of my messages.
I call people liars, stupid, etc., because they start the ball rolling, I just keep pushing it.
I “attack” people on the positions they hold, when they refuse to address the facts.
But whoops, that’s right. I’m one of the 5 or 6 people on these blogs who addresses the facts. Simple explanation.
October 9th, 2007 at 3:02 pm
#73 Bridgett:
They would actually prefer that the actual QBOB be given out and not copies of the PDF. It really just doesn’t look as professional.
If you were sponsoring someone from a distance you might want to mail them an actual copy of the QBOB.
October 9th, 2007 at 3:13 pm
Tex [#79]
As of yesterday, AB is waiting for your reply to the question sent to you about talking. I will call you as soon as I receive your number.
October 9th, 2007 at 3:38 pm
#80 GirlPower
#73 Tex
I am in agreement with you.
Maybe my sarcasm regarding the price of 50 cents for the QBOB didn’t come through.
It’s a RIDICULOUSLY low price for the quality (and usefulness) of it.
Tex, at quixtar.com, search for QBOB. When it comes up, click on “More Info”–then you should see the three links I’m talking about. The links don’t show up until you click on More Info.
October 9th, 2007 at 4:06 pm
Tex #78
Come on Cowboy, again no facts just spouting garbage! You are so predictable! Find a typo, rip the person, and proclaim the purity of Quixtar! Listen, the corporation is not looking out for the IBO! If the QBOB is a legal doc then it should be a free part of the registration process! Always! Next Q will be charging for the registration paperwork! Of course, you would make the blanket proclamation “it was all the other rules they broke”….There is not one document that demonstrates the Team, as an entity, broke any rules! The Teams approach to this business was legal and approved until the IBOIA board chose to not support the name change to AMWAY! “Haas”
October 9th, 2007 at 5:15 pm
Tex #78:
I do. And many more times than 3. And you?
October 9th, 2007 at 8:57 pm
IF SOMEBODY KNOW ( TEX )YOU CAN GO TO BUENA PARK PICK UP CENTER IT’S LOST……VERY LOST
VERYYY LOST…
October 9th, 2007 at 9:16 pm
The Big Apple #81,
Really? I sent it to her on the 3rd.
Bridgett #82,
Remember, we’re dealing with Orrinites, they don’t even understand the simple stuff, let alone sarcasm.
Mary Ann #83,
Good. Did you/do you actually read it many more times than 3 every day for least 30 days?
I don’t read it, but I do think it and use it constantly.
Step 2 is to apply it. Try that one. It’ll be a real eye opener for you.
October 9th, 2007 at 9:44 pm
Quixkicked #83, You know the language we edited out was inappropriate. You don’t have to be a moderator to use a little moderation…
Bridgett #74, Is that a riddle? Seriously, there are several of us who write, edit and moderate here, and we share a few handles among us.
October 9th, 2007 at 11:15 pm
Quixkicked #83/CC #87,
Potty mouth, potty mouth. Quixkicked tried to use potty mouth.
Come on Cowboy, again no facts just spouting garbage! —- What facts do you want? Ask a question, horsie. I’ll keep digging in my spurs until you get moving.
You are so predictable! Type a typo, rip me for YOUR mistake, and proclaim the purity of TEAM!
You are so (oops, this must be the potty mouth part. Shame, shame, shame. I’ll have to use my imagination. Was it…brilliant…insightful…intelligent?)
Listen, the corporation is not looking out for the IBO! —- I know that, I’ve told them that. That’s why I’m here.
If the QBOB is a legal doc then it should be a free part of the registration process! Always! —- What do you think this is, Communism?
Next Q will be charging for the registration paperwork! —- They already do, it is part of the registration cost.
Of course, you would make the blanket proclamation “it was all the other rules they broke”…. —- What does this have to do with the current line of discussion?
There is not one document that demonstrates the Team, as an entity, broke any rules! —- The e-mails I sent in to Q did that just fine.
The Teams approach to this business was legal and approved until the IBOIA board chose to not support the name change to AMWAY! “Haas” —- Are you serious? there was reference to multi-year and repeated rule violations in the termination letters. The IBOAI Board didn’t have to support the name change to Amway, the corp. merely informed them they were doing it. The IBOAI Board doesn’t approve anything anyway, they only review and give input. Where have you been, “Haas”?
October 9th, 2007 at 11:55 pm
“The IBOAI Board didn’t have to support the name change to Amway, the corp. merely informed them they were doing it. The IBOAI Board doesn’t approve anything anyway, they only review and give input. Where have you been, “Haas”?”
TEX…Where have YOU been?? Rich doesn’t think the IBOAI board is powerless…listen to this:
http://theiborebellion.blogspot.com/2007/09/rich-devos-in-his-own-words_12.html
October 10th, 2007 at 12:33 am
Qreilly [#89]
Please read my post #75, then comment on the Board and the relevancy, vis-à-vis the way the leaders are running their businesses nowadays.
October 10th, 2007 at 12:33 am
The Big Apple #75, very perceptive post. Thanks for the insights and perspective.
October 10th, 2007 at 3:15 am
#87 C.C.
LOL. No riddle.
Now I get it. This blog is not run by just one person.
How could it be run by just one person? You need an army to keep up with Tex.
October 10th, 2007 at 8:11 am
Qreilly #89,
Where have YOU been? See #66. Try to keep up.
October 10th, 2007 at 9:13 am
Perspection effect (copied from above)
Results from dictionary.com: “No results found for perspection.
Did you mean Prospection (in dictionary) or Persecution (in encyclopedia)?
Dictionary suggestions:
Prospection
Respection
persecution
Despection
perception
Encyclopedia suggestions:
Persecution
Prospection
Persperation
Perception
Perspiration
Would you like to search the encyclopedias, or search the Web for perspection?”
If they are making up words, what else are they fabricating? Some people seem to think that everything they find on the internet is THE TRUTH!!!
My husband and I resigned our Q business. We were able to go on a vacation with the money we saved. In addition, I can now afford to attend a leadership seminar. I will miss *some* of the products (SA8, LOC & XS); everything else can be replaced by something comparable and less expensive.
My final thought is that Quixtar threw the first stone when they sent out the first email on August 9th. It was neither factual nor professional. The internet is not a good forum for a multi-million $$ corporation.
October 10th, 2007 at 6:09 pm
#94 LadyBauer
Click on to the “they can’t hide facts” link in the second sentence of the post.
It will take you to
http://www.moillusions.com/2006/04/perspection-effect-illusion.html
and you can read about the “perspection” effect.
In regards to Quixtar “throwing the first stone”, um, what was the lawsuit that Orrin filed?
Seems people keep forgetting that little detail.
October 10th, 2007 at 6:24 pm
LadyBauer #94,
Now THAT’S a good reason to resign, because someone either misspelled a word or tried to be creative with the English language. Plus, I already asked that question in #10. But I didn’t quit over it.
My final thought is that Orrin threw the first stone when he sent out the lawsuit on August 9th. It was neither factual nor professional. The internet is not a good forum for a multi-year rule breaker.
October 10th, 2007 at 11:34 pm
LadyBauer [#94]
I am sorry your Quixtar business cost you money. If you and your husband had been introduced to the business in the way it was designed by its founders, you most likely would have made money.
This business was founded as a way for people to have their own part-time business selling and distributing high quality consumable consumer products without a monetary investment — a business that could be, but didn’t have to be, grown into a full-time business. “A store without walls” is how we used to refer to it. People could make an extra $500 a month on a continuous basis and be totally accepted by their upline Emerald and Diamond. Training was done to totally support selling products and how to sponsor and work with downline who were selling products.
We sold the products you are going to miss. (We didn’t have all the stuff in the Options catalog, that costs more than what’s in the store, and were better off for it.) Because product was sold to customers as well as personally consumed, massive amounts of distributors were not necessary. Your sponsor and upline restricted their advice to matters of product, selling, and sponsoring.
We weren’t out to change the world with the business itself, we were there to help people make extra money. Sure there were people who took their earnings and did missionary work, or other things to better the world. But that was on their own time, and not made part of the business itself.
Meetings and training materials were low cost, and any money collected was to reimburse costs, and not to make a profit in of itself. They were specifically there to support product training, sales training, and sponsoring activities.
The business program you (and many others) were recruited into most likely did not fit the above description. Quixtar has seen this for a long time and has wanted to do something about it for a long time. That time finally came.
[to be continued]
October 10th, 2007 at 11:35 pm
LadyBauer [#94] [continued from previous post]
Documents shown elsewhere on the web shows that Quixtar bent over backwards to get Team to stop the violations which was bastardizing and jeopardizing the business — not that they were the only one doing so, but they were the most egregious. Bastardized for so long that most people thought that was the way the business was supposed to work.
It is my understanding that Quixtar’s lawyers determined that Team’s tool compensation program was likely to be classified as an illegal pyramid, and could be detrimental to Quixtar itself.
For, I believe, six years, Quixtar worked with Team to bring them into compliance with the rules. On August 9, 2007, when Woodward and Brady (W&B) were asked by Quixtar’s Jim Payne whether they wanted to see the remediation measures Quixtar had prepared, they declined to look at them. That was the end of the line.
An hour or so later, Quixtar’s lawyers served termination papers to Woodward and Brady because of their stance. Six years of broken promises by those two men is what caused their termination.
At some point, W&B wanted to “take” their entire group with them, as if they owned the group. You and every IBO is/was an independent contractor. What if you were a Platinum who didn’t want to go with W&B, but W&B were allowed to pick apart your group? What if other MLMs were allowed to come in, recruit a leader and do the same thing? That’s what the non-compete clause is designed to protect: the downline’s business.
W&B’s lawsuit was already prepared, prior to this meeting, and they thought they could ambush Quixtar and blackmail them into capitulating on the non-compete clause. They thought this because previously, Quixtar had not shown much backbone — Quixtar always tried to play the gentleman. That day was different. Quixtar finally showed some moxie, and it carried over into the initial emails.
When the lawsuit was filed, Quixtar terminated the other IBOs named as Plaintiffs.
On the bright side, if you still want SA8, LOC, and XS, I’ll be happy to serve you as a customer. : )
October 11th, 2007 at 10:40 am
The Big Apple #97/8,
“It is my understanding that Quixtar’s lawyers determined that Team’s tool compensation program was likely to be classified as an illegal pyramid, and could be detrimental to Quixtar itself.” —- That concept doesn’t show up anywhere in the TEAM documentation. Most other tool systems are run in a very similar manner to how TEAM did it, so why have they also not been terminated? The corp didn’t move until the UK DTI threatened to shut down Amway over there, it appears due to the tool scam and high Amway pricing. In response, the corp closed down the tool scam, stopped sponsoring, and lowered some of the prices. We still don’t know how that will turn out, there is a trial scheduled for later this year/early next year.
Otherwise, I think your posts are on target.
October 11th, 2007 at 11:53 am
“Insignificant NON Achiever” aka Tex:
These “facts” you like to speak of — are nothing more than your formulated opinion based on the available information, “Available” being the operative word here. None of us, including you, has access to all the facts. Everyone has opinions. You can repeat them a thousand times, and they’re still just your opinions. Your Self Proclaimed “expertise” will never change that fact.
Your insults and vitriolic tone notwithstanding, time, and only time, will certainly prove someone right and someone wrong here.
That said, those of us who chose team know that. We can agree to disagree forever, but that accomplishes nothing. I’m game for checking back in here periodically, reporting & comparing results, and allowing the scoreboard to ultimately show the clear winner.
I for one am more than willing to put up or shut up, and let the results speak for themselves.
Are YOU???
October 11th, 2007 at 1:41 pm
FOI #100,
I never claimed to have access to all the facts, just enough to make an informed decision regarding the tool scam.
Time has already proven this position right in the UK.
It’s not time for me to shut up. TEAM has served their purpose, to further expose the MASSIVE tool profits, is gone, and now we will work on the rest of the tool scam systems.
You don’t get it. TEAM is now an afterthought, not the main focus. Only in YOUR mind does everything revolve around TEAM.
October 12th, 2007 at 12:05 am
Tex [#100]
I can’t say for sure who told me, but I believe it was someone in the Corporation who was speaking from a position of knowledge. It had to do with sharing the profits with more than just the Platinums, Emeralds, and Diamonds. I’m a little foggy on this, but I’m pretty sure it had to do with the fact that they were recruiting people for their tool business, and in the process, making income claims for the tool business. Once everybody became eligible to make money, the lack of outside customers would became the sticking legal issue. When it was a support system that only the top or selected people made money, it wasn’t a legal issue. Quixtar knew that it would only be a matter of time before the FTC would come down on Team.
Alticor Blog Admin: perhaps you can clarify this
In any case, I don’t think this kind of stuff would show up in Team documents. And Quixtar wouldn’t bring it up in their documents because it isn’t part of the issue on the table at this time.
P.S. AB never received your reply, but is making another attempt to get your number.
October 12th, 2007 at 11:01 am
My understanding is there were TEAM people lower than Platinum that were paid tool profits, but not everyone, as TIF tried to do. However, listening to TIF tapes, it is hard to believe there wasn’t significant communications and influence between the groups. TIF even talked about being their “current partner of choice” (not a direct quote, but the idea), leaving the door wide open for TIF to eventually drop Quixtar and go with someone else. The funny thing is, TIF even got the corp to distribute, and I think even make the copies of their tapes. Now that takes some gozambas.
If true, I think this is part of the “improper positioning” issue that Q had with TEAM.
Have you seen the Andy Andrews video on youtube, where he waves a letter from March 2002, supposedly from the corp, stating most IBO’s (except for the big pins) shouldn’t make tool money, and shouldn’t even be aware MASSIVE tool money is made? I would love to get a copy of that letter.
I sent another e-mail to AB last night, hopefully it got there this time.
October 12th, 2007 at 12:49 pm
Bridgett,
Many feel Q/Amway threw the first stone….at them. I did not file a lawsuit and was building my business properly. Q/Amway sent me several threatening emails. In my opinion, they threw the first stone.
October 12th, 2007 at 1:55 pm
DLSChicago #104,
You can “feel” whatever you want, the fact remains Orrin was breaking rules for many years, and many of the same rules over and over again. The e-mails were sent out because Orrin threw a boulder, with “illegal pyramid” written all over it.