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Alticor Media Blog is the official news weblog from the Alticor family of companies.
October 2nd, 2007 @ 11:02 pm ET…
Spaghetti
You can post a comment or trackback from your own site.
We were in court today for yet another lawsuit.
And walked away grateful for another win.
This time, TEAM attacked us in McKinney, Texas, with yet another pile of overheated allegations. (We’ll provide document links later, when we are home from the road.)
Now, if you are asking yourself why TEAM – a Michigan-based company with Michigan-based executives – chose to go to Texas to sue Quixtar – a Michigan-based company with Michigan-based executives – well, the judge wondered about that, too.
And then he dismissed the case.
We’ve talked about the legal spam that TEAM has splattered us with across the nation. We’ll talk more later about “forum shopping,” the massively cynical, abusive and wasteful legal tactic that class action lawyers like those representing Orrin Woodward employ.
But that spaghetti doesn’t always stick to the wall, even when D.J. Poyfair is standing in the courtroom watching his team throw. This time, it was refreshing to watch the judge take his time, hear the motion about whether this case had any place in a Texas court – and then deliver a simple answer: No.
Filed by: Corporate Communications
Posted in: Alticor, Amway, Quixtar, Transformation
October 2nd, 2007 at 11:15 pm
Did the judge only throw the case out of Texas, or did he also direct the spaghetti in the direction of CA or MI?
Let’s not forget, these “forum shopping” tactics are a massive waste of all of our taxpayer dollars, and delay other cases that should be getting their timely days in court.
Of course, you have the story all wrong, as the Orrinites (followers of Orrin “Rosie Ruiz” Woodward) will simply say this apparent defeat for them is merely part of their “strategy”, just like the high-tailing Randy Haugen and Don Wilson are part of some grand plan for their plan to success. There are many uses for LOC, but you’re not supposed to sniff it, TEAM.
Does this mean the TRO granted in Texas is no longer in existance? Does this decision help with the other similar TRO’s that have been filed across the country?
October 3rd, 2007 at 12:33 am
This is pretty funny that TEAM is filing lawsuits all over the country… all that does is cost money for everyone involved when the cases should be handled in Michigan since both corporations are based there.
October 3rd, 2007 at 12:37 am
Tex, you still haven’t answered my question about the tool scam. Are you avoiding my question?
October 3rd, 2007 at 12:38 am
Please explain where Quixtar is incorporated. I have heard it is Michigan, Virginia or some overseas location. The best I have seen was included below. If it is Michigan, it would give Alticor some credibility.
Searched for: QUIXTAR INC.
ID Num: 641314
Entity Name: QUIXTAR INC.
Type of Entity: Foreign Profit Corporation
Resident Agent: THE CORPORATION COMPANY
Registered Office Address: 30600 TELEGRAPH ROAD STE 2345 BINGHAM FARMS MI 48025
Mailing Address: MI
Formed Under Act Number(s):
Incorporation/Qualification Date: 1-29-2001
Jurisdiction of Origin: VIRGINIA
Number of Shares: 1,000
Year of Most Recent Annual Report: 07
Year of Most Recent Annual Report With Officers & Directors: 06
Status: ACTIVE Date: Present
October 3rd, 2007 at 1:00 am
ALTICOR BLOGGER, excellent post and just the right tone.
October 3rd, 2007 at 1:06 am
Defeat? It’s a change of venue, not a defeat.
October 3rd, 2007 at 1:25 am
While it’s a shame they (Team leaders Orrin and Chris) chose not to play by the rules and now continue to try these tactics, I’m glad the judge wasn’t influenced by their charades.
Tex – While I appreciate you zeal to stand with Quixtar, as I do, and I certainly do not agree with how Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady have acted including filing the lawsuit in CA which is full of false accusations.
However, it serves no useful purpose to insult and call names. Orrin deserves to be called by his name, Orrin. I would ask you to respect that, just as you would expect others to call you by your name.
That also goes for casting insulting remarks for those that support him, please be respectful, agree or not, do not attack by calling names. Disagree, yes, insult NO!
You do not help our cause, and I for one do not appreciate it.
Respectfully yours,
Ros
Dear Alticor Media Blog Moderator, I respectfully request that when anyone posts and insults another with name calling or other petty belittling remarks, you do not post it, and you may want to remove any previously posted. They have no place in a forum where we should have mature respectful commentary, discussing ideas, solutions and expressing our opinions of the topics. Thank you.
October 3rd, 2007 at 1:35 am
But Tex? I thought that hte TRO’s filed by Orrin “not Rosie” didn’t matter. So why do you care?
October 3rd, 2007 at 2:16 am
Who’s being cynical? It seems pretty obvious by your post. Yesterday Orrin,Chris Randy and Chuck and many others on the Team were poster children for Quixtar. Now they are “massively cynical and abusive” hum? Many IBO’s respect these people. You are coming across pretty desperate to give some, so called “bad news”.It’s pretty exciting to me to know that every day the court hearing goes on ,it’s one more day that a judge somewhere is hereing our side. That we (the Team ) just want to be free. Don’t forget people, it would’t have went this far if Quixtar woul’n't have let it!
October 3rd, 2007 at 2:23 am
Don’t rush to post the documents, I’m sure the freetheibo site will have them up momentarily, right Orrin?
After all, it is “The Destination for Lawsuit Coverage”.
October 3rd, 2007 at 2:28 am
“Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practise to deceive.”
October 3rd, 2007 at 8:07 am
#1 Tex:
I’m sure that getting laughed at in Texas is all part of their master-plan, don’t ya know?
October 3rd, 2007 at 9:13 am
True Both TEAM and Quxtar are both MI based companies but both companies did do business in every state in the USA. To me this only means one thing! Quixtar is no longer doing business in Texas! Therefore TEAM had no case!
October 3rd, 2007 at 9:35 am
I’m having a hard time following all of these court proceedings. Amway is accusing Team of forum shopping, but what about the actions in England and India. Are they forum shopping as well? Although Team’s case in Texas got slam dunked, that doesn’t change the fact that the legitimacy of Amway is being questioned in England and India, and soon to be other markets as well I’m sure. Those other countries, ours included, can read all the stuff on the net. It seems like anywhere Amway has a presence, a fire erupts. Are the IBOs to blame, or is it the company?
October 3rd, 2007 at 10:13 am
ros,
Wonderfully put. Who ever writes the Altico blog should pay attention to the tone of what you wrote, thank you for disagreeing respectfully. Thank you more for your comments directed to tex.
October 3rd, 2007 at 10:23 am
Piet, that’s hilarious… I was thinking of posting exactly the same quote. Good on you!!!
(Sir Walter Scott, isn’t it?)
October 3rd, 2007 at 10:24 am
I think this constant filing of legal action is part of Orrin’s threatened PR attack. It also might get him an opportunity to find a sympathetic judge.
However, with every loss, this is looking more and more like a big waste of time and money on the part of TEAM. Do they really want to get into a legal spending-spree with Quixtar/Amway/Alticor?
Make no mistake about it, getting your case booted out of court is a loss. Mr. Poyfair is not working pro bono for TEAM. By the time all this is said and done, TEAM may not even exist but Mr. Poyfair will be in very good shape.
October 3rd, 2007 at 10:31 am
what is forum shopping?
October 3rd, 2007 at 10:55 am
Tex, with due respect, your comment about the IBOAI moderator on the other thread was over the line. I would ask that you consider having it withdrawn. As Ros noted, there are many of us who agree with much of your core argument, but that comment did not assist your/our cause. Perhaps even an apology to the IBOAI moderator would not be too much. The board members who were trying to protect their tool income business left in August. The Board we have now is clean.
Alticor Moderator, this blog COULD be a place for intelligent, respectful, hopefully persuasive dialogue if you were to firm up a bit on posting protocol and etiquette. I think it could be done without driving people away.
October 3rd, 2007 at 10:59 am
The entire tone of this press release by Amway is cocky and degrading. For a company that is always concerned with decorum, you consistantly break your own rules.
Its a long race so don’t get too cocky, too early Amway. A constant reminder to you should be what’s happening in the UK! Oh, I’m sorry, that was caused by our reckless IBO’s and their sorry tools…not our fault!
October 3rd, 2007 at 11:00 am
NG,
Forum shopping is a term used for filing a lawsuit in a particular court because you believe the Judge(s) in that court have beliefs or tendencies favorable to your position.
October 3rd, 2007 at 11:07 am
NG,
Forum shopping might also be done when one believes that a particular court has greater familiarity or experience with a certain issue or area of the law.
October 3rd, 2007 at 11:17 am
Ros,
its a blog, not a legal hearing.
“dear alticor blog mod, please censor everyone because the first ammendment doesnt apply to those without respect to orrin woodward. Only allow those who dont make team look bad post. A frank and open discussion of ideas shouldnt be allowed if someone puts a speck of emotion into their thoughts.”
TEAM is a scam. The “leaders” are playing dirty after being shown the door and from what I get out of it, those who followed orrin into this are starting to regret it.
Im sure just like me everyone is sick of hearing about pointless law suits benig carried out in texas, california, etc. and just want some closure on this issue.
October 3rd, 2007 at 11:20 am
Bill Smith, I agree with you that some of the earlier posts missed the mark on tone and decorum, but I think they were pretty good with this one. Regardless of which side you’re on, this particular Texas action was dismissed, and the Alticor blogger was reasonable, level headed and measured in how they wrote up their win. I’m looking forward to more of the same measured, modest tone when they subsequenly post links to the relevant documents.
With appreciation,
October 3rd, 2007 at 11:25 am
rdknyvr, I agree.
I came to the blogs to help me make a decision. Keeping an open mind was difficult with all of the insults.
I disagree however that the board is clean now.
October 3rd, 2007 at 11:25 am
LAME….
That’s all i can say to this post. Where are the details…What has been written here is a conumdrum of words put together, but with no destination in mind. I like hearing the facts, not some baseless report of a court hearing that was thrown out based on location(i am assuming that was the reason why it was thrown out).
Post some info regarding the court case, and then maybe all of us can formulate and educated opinion of what’s going on.
October 3rd, 2007 at 11:29 am
#13 spaceshot:
I assure you that there are many IBOs in Texas. Duh.
October 3rd, 2007 at 11:39 am
Shaun #2,
As you know, the next to last place TEAM wants to be is in a Michigan courtroom. The last place they want to be is involved in the Quixtar arbitration process.
They want to be in California, because the UCSR (Union of California Socialist Republics) is the only state that has any regard for TEAM’s position on the non-compete rule.
matthew #3,
No, you got my response. If you want to rephrase the question, feel free to do so.
Utah #4,
My understanding is Quixtar is incorporated in Virginia.
rdknyvr #5,
I agree, we can further enhance the tone.
AEM #6,
Get the he!! out of Texas isn’t a defeat? I think it is the first of many dominoes that will fall across the country. Without a case in Texas, Quixtar can use the Michigan decision, which isn’t nearly as friendly to the Orrinites as the Texas TRO, so this is MUCH more than a simple change of venue.
Ros #7,
It’s not my blog, I am merely following the existing guidelines. If the guidelines change, so will I. But for this blog to be nice and sugary while Orrin “Rosie Ruiz” Woodward is trying to get Quixtar labeled as an illegal pyramid and the nasty AND one-sided comments continue on the pro-TEAM blogs, I think the current guidelines strike a good balance. If you are offering cupcakes while the other side is slinging mud, you get buried in the blog world, simple as that. You don’t butcher a pig without getting some of the mud on yourself.
Jerad #8,
But Jerad? I thought that you realized TRO’s filed by Orrin “Rosie Ruiz” Woodward and his Orrinites are TEMPORARY and one-sided rulings, because Quixtar wasn’t even present in the Texas court room when they were issued. Now the Orrinites are exposed to the Michigan court ruling, which included both sides in the debate, is NOT temporary, and not nearly as friendly to TEAM. That’s why I care.
revolution #9,
Who’s being stupid? It seems pretty obvious by your post. Yesterday Orrin, Chris, Randy, Chuck and many others on the Team were poster children for Quixtar? Not so fast, it appears Quixtar was outwardly not making them look bad, but behind the scenes they were getting multi-year whuppings. It has to do with privacy and being patient, not being “poster children”.
The comment “massively cynical and abusive” was referring to their lawyers, not the IBO’s, and don’t forget “…“forum shopping,” the massively cynical, abusive and wasteful legal tactic that class action lawyers like those representing Orrin Woodward employ.”
Many IBO’s respect these people? I respect the Orrinite lawyers for working hard for their clients and trying every sleazy tactic to maximize their billable hours to extract as much of my tool scam profit from Orrin “Rosie Ruiz” Woodward as they can, if you want to call that respect.
Quixtar is coming across pretty desperate to give some, so called “bad news”? Looks to me like a clear Quixtar victory, who’s desperate now?
It’s pretty exciting to me to know that every day the court hearing goes on, it’s one more day that a judge somewhere is hearing Quixtar’s side, and so far agreeing with it in unanimous fashion.
That you (the Team ) just want to be free, what a bunch of garbage. Don’t forget people, it would’t have went this far if TEAM wouldn’t have let it, by filing the CA and other lawsuits!
October 3rd, 2007 at 11:49 am
Does anyone know how many diamonds were created in Q/Amway over the last 3 years outside of TEAM? I am just wondering how quickly the rest of Q/Amway typically grows.
October 3rd, 2007 at 11:49 am
So tex, why not demonstrate the right wat to build this business; get your face and story in Achieve. Lead us tex. If your breath doesn’t stink, put on a tie and go register some people. Duplicate yourself. Help some others win. You’ve been more than willing to regurgitate the flaws, now model the path for all of us to follow. Or are you a coward in search of an excuse?
October 3rd, 2007 at 11:52 am
Piet #11,
Hey “amazed”, there’s a “European” word for you, although I think Piet is from South Africa, but they spell “practised” different than those of us in far western Europe, aka U.S.A., as we spell it “practiced”. Are you keeping up?
GirlPower #12,
Yes, I think the book they are using was originally named “Master Plan Your Disaster”, but the “Your Disaster” part got rubbed off.
spaceshot #13,
Quixtar has an RDC (Regional Distribution Center) in Texas, and is the second most populous state. Why would TEAM start a lawsuit in Texas if Quixtar had no business in Texas? I think you belong in space for saying Quixtar has no business in Texas.
Doug #14,
I’m not having a hard time following all of these court proceedings. A/Q is accusing Team of forum shopping in the U.S., but the actions in England and India are different countries having their own court systems. I have no idea if there is forum shopping going on in these other countries, but I doubt it. Team’s case in Texas got slam dunked, that doesn’t change the fact that the legitimacy of Amway is being questioned in England and India, and perhaps will be in other markets as well. Those other countries, ours included, can read all the stuff on the net. It seems like anywhere the tool profiteers have a presence, a fire erupts. Are the IBOs to blame, or is it the tool profiteers?
October 3rd, 2007 at 11:54 am
With everything going on in Amway (Alticor, Quixtar, etc) I am trying to see if this is really my own business? Let me do a quick check.
Do I sign my own pay check? No.
Can I legally sell my business? No.
Can I change my business model or technique? No
Can I add on any new lines of product? No.
Can I take on investors? No.
Can I incorporate at my leisure? No.
OK. Let me look up Self-employed on Dictionary.com
self-em ployed; earning one’s living directly from one’s own profession or business, as a freelance writer or artist, rather than as an employee earning salary or commission from another.
Are we, the ABO (Amway Business Owner), endangered in losing our legal status as business owners?
Will the IRS declare us something new in the future removing our business owner rights and privileges under the law?
I welcome informed responses.
It would be great to get an “official statement,” but the blog is for ABO’s to write and for the “officials” to monitor. This is “their” pulse on the business. This blog is “their” polling feature.
October 3rd, 2007 at 12:08 pm
Renshi_D #17,
You got that right. All the Orrinites are hearing the “cha-chings” quite loudly right now. I think Randy Haugen and Don Wilson heard them as well.
NG #18,
It’s where you race across the country, desperately looking for a sympathetic judge. We know there’s at least one in Texas who isn’t.
rdknyvr #19,
With due respect, my comment about the IBOAI moderator on the other thread was accurate, and neither he nor the IBOAI Board deserves respect.
You would ask that I consider having it withdrawn? I guess you wouldn’t want to see the blistering e-mail I sent him, would you? It made the post on the other thread look like a walk in the park, and it was accurate and fact-based as well.
As Ros noted, there are many of you who agree with much of my core argument, but that comment did assist your/our cause, because there are times when you have to call a spade a spade, and that was one of those occasions.
Perhaps even an apology to the IBOAI moderator would not be too much? Not likely, you’ve only seen the tip of the iceberg for all of the garbage e-mails he’s sent me.
The board members who were trying to protect their tool income business left in August, the Board we have now is clean? Not even close, the rest of them are making as much or more from the tools than the Orrinites did. Open your eyes. Read up on the UK tool scam developments, study the relative prices and resulting profits for the other lines of sponsorship. Get a clue.
Alticor Moderator, this blog IS a place for intelligent (from some of us), respectful (when appropriate), hopefully persuasive dialogue if you were to maintain the current posting protocol and etiquette. I think it is driving away those who do not seek the truth, a worthy goal.
October 3rd, 2007 at 12:14 pm
Bill #20,
The entire tone of this press release by Amway isn’t cocky or degrading, it’s factual. For a company that is usually concerned with decorum, you rightly took the gloves off long ago.
Its a long race so don’t get too cocky, too early Amway. A constant reminder to you should be what’s happening in the UK! Oh, I’m sorry, that was caused by our reckless IBO’s and their tool scam…not Amway’s fault, except they didn’t clamp down on this nonsense years ago! That’s right, the tools have been shut down in the UK, not the products.
whatever #21/2,
The first is forum shopping, the second is being a smart lawyer.
TEAM #23,
Amen.
October 3rd, 2007 at 12:17 pm
#22 Whatever: thank you.
October 3rd, 2007 at 12:22 pm
Let’s slow down folks.
Remember near the beginning, when Team IBOs filed a number of lawsuits seeking TROs? A/Q/A characterized that as legal spamming, splattering lawsuits nationwide, a negative PR campaign etc. But, there was a legitimate reason for each and every one of those lawsuits.
When this whole thing broke out, a communication from Q demanded that all Team IBOs swear allegiance to Q and forsake Team or risk having their businesses terminated. Every one of these lawsuits seeking TROs were from individual Team IBOs seeking to prevent Q from making good on that threat.
The whole point is this: while Q would like to smear Team for “legal spamming” or “forum shopping,” each and every one of those lawsuits were justified. And, here we are again, judging Team based solely on some news from Alticor when we still have no clue what this purported new case in Texas was all about.
So, let’s slow down and not be too quick to judge.
October 3rd, 2007 at 12:50 pm
Now, if Quixtar isn’t Amway, why are the distributor rules being created by the Amway Distributor’s Association Board? Van Andel elaborates:
“I am pleased to announce that Quixtar, Incorporated is a Delaware corporation, owned by the DeVos and Van Andel families.”
www.mlmsurvivor.com/quixtar.htm
Now why would Quixtar registar as a corporation in Delaware? Is it to there advantage? In fact it is.
Why would TEAM want to have its court cases outside of Michigan (GR area to be more specific)? Because the glasses of the judges in GR are clouded with VanAndel and Devos. That should not be hard for anyone to see.
October 3rd, 2007 at 12:51 pm
I’ve seen the documents on Orrin’s negative PR campaign and the new MLM. They are stored in a red metal box that is kept locked. Orrin sent the box to a monastery on top of a 16,000 ft peak located in Tibet. It is stored in a large chamber with 10,000 other boxes exactly like it. However, this has a different emblem stenciled on top of it. Look for the letter “Q” with a hammer and sickle. To get into the monastery, you will need a code word. That word is “Xet”, which is the Tibetan word for “Deceiver”.
Good luck in your search,
Sherlock
October 3rd, 2007 at 12:58 pm
rdknyvr:
Thanks. I might take the easy way out and say its from “Dead Poet’s Society” but if I remember correctly it was Puck (?) in the closing scene from A midsummer night’s dream by William Shakespeare.
October 3rd, 2007 at 1:20 pm
So tex, you won’t build because people use tools. You won’t build because the time’s not right. I appologize; you’re not a coward in search of an excuse-you’re a coward who’s found on.
October 3rd, 2007 at 1:28 pm
Tex # 28
sorry i missed your post on the last blog, that’s why i didn’t see it. i do know what the levels are, and what gets paid out on average as well at those levels.
i guess my question to you is two parts, and then we will be on the same page…
1st, the definition of scam…
—without looking at the dictionary, scam could loosely be defined as “taking advantage of people, decieving people to make a profit
what would your definition be?
2nd, how are tools a scam and how are tools from amway any different than any other LOA?
—the way i see it, and i could be wrong, but TEAM is the only LOA that shares profit from the system in any organized way. In a previous LOA, my diamond upline would give tool profits to the downline emeralds, but would pick and choose who, and how much each recieved. The majority of profits stayed with the diamond, and some got distributed to his “good ole” friends.
Now in TEAM, I know that if I hit a certain level, I am compensated by profit sharing for helping bring more people into the TEAM. Anyone can hit this level, and people below me can hit higher levels than where i am at, and be compensated more for it that me.
Now how is that a scam? The only way I can see your reasoning, is if you were supporting that tools be sold and distributed at cost and no profit.
Now I know that amway, will not sell tools at cost, and will not share profits equally and evenly, yet you openly support them. They will keep the profits in the family. How is that not worse of a scam? Maybe i don’t understand something there, but if there was ever a scam, I see it coming from amway tools.
October 3rd, 2007 at 1:47 pm
Tik tok, tik tok, tik tok. Every day It gets more and more quiet on this blog. Tex, you even have your own nipping at your heels. What are all of you going to do when this is settled and this TEAM thing doesn’t take up all of your time. Amway should get a shrink to be one of their partners. You could get some PV that way. I think you all are going to need it.============ You choose what one. ======
LOL
Conan
October 3rd, 2007 at 2:04 pm
Tex,
Thanks for your opinion on when forum shopping is acceptable and when it is not. I would say that “being a smart lawyer” includes trying anything within the law that improves your client’s chances of prevailing.
October 3rd, 2007 at 2:12 pm
If I am not mastaken these lawsuits were a tro to stop quixtar from making our ibo’s sign with them or be fired from quixtar. the ibos resigned so there was no reason for the lawsuit. Am I right
October 3rd, 2007 at 2:25 pm
Tex,
Just so you’re aware, my state also does NOT recognize any no compete..it’s a right to work state and it is on public record that a no compete is non enforceable. I know, I bought a biz that had one and the old owners went right out and opened a competing one in 18 months.
Many states…especially here in the south where I am, have such rulings. The individual probably will have to go to court to fight the entity trying to make it stick, but stick it won’t. It was not worth the money it would have taken for me to go to court & my atty, informed me I would lose anyway.
Maybe the reason Team went out of Michigan is because the laws ARE more favorable there….wonder why Q incorporated out of state ? Same reason ? Good for them…good for us.
October 3rd, 2007 at 2:41 pm
TEAM # 23
Tex # 28
Thank you for your replies.
As I said in my post # 7 above and others, I make no bones about it, I strongly disagree with the actions of Orrin and Chris. They are wrong. What they did was not right, and as a result they are trying to causing harm to Quixtar and my business. However….
It’s a matter of decency, it matters not the actions of the other, you must hold yourself to a higher standard, disagree, disagree strongly, voice your opinions, but do it in a civil manor and tone, less your words and points will loose their impact. Unless the point is nothing more then to incite, in which case you have hit the nail on the head.
Again, you do not serve our mutual cause of supporting Quixtar and our businesses by saying disparaging remarks and calling names.
Sincerely,
Ros
October 3rd, 2007 at 2:46 pm
So true. Great reminder, thanks Captain!
October 3rd, 2007 at 2:51 pm
This post is professional? You have to be kidding, right? Captain #35 says it right.
I received an email yesterday from the Quixtar Soviet Socialist Republic (QSSR) telling me I can only attend meetings that promote Quixtar. The QSSR apparently forgot we are in the United States and we have a Constitution with a Bill of Rights that specifically allows us to assemble peaceably. Even if it’s a TEAM assembly.
Where do these guys get off? And to you Quixtar-loyalists, how can you defend this? (Please Tex, that is a rhetorical question. I really don’t want your convaluted explanation on this. Let’s all just assume you think it’s A-okay for the QSSR to forbid attendance and any meetings that do not promote Quixtar.)
October 3rd, 2007 at 3:06 pm
#32 Wondering:
Do I sign my own pay check? No.
In a sense, yes, you do sign your own paycheck. There is no cap to what you can make. If you work, you make money. Just like any other business. If you owned a consulting business would you really write yourself a check? No, you’d simply use your profit. And if you didn’t work you’d have no money.
Can I legally sell my business? No.
Actually, yes, you can sell your Q business. It happens all of the time. If your business is worth buying another IBO will make you a deal.
Can I change my business model or technique? No
No. You can’t. However, if you were to buy a franchise restaurant you would own it, but still need to follow their structure.
Can I add on any new lines of product? No.
See above.
Can I take on investors? No.
See above
Can I incorporate at my leisure? No.
Yes. Many IBOs get a tax ID and incorporate themselves.
October 3rd, 2007 at 3:19 pm
so, does that mean I can’t go to church or a boy scouts meeting, or a weight watchers meeting? pulleeze!
October 3rd, 2007 at 3:26 pm
Captain #36,
Let’s speed up. The tool scam has been around long enough.
Remember near the beginning, when Team IBOs filed a number of lawsuits seeking TROs? A/Q/A characterized that as legal spamming, splattering lawsuits nationwide, a negative PR campaign etc. There was no legitimate reason for each and every one of those lawsuits.
When this whole thing broke out, a communication from Q requested that all Team Platinum IBOs agree to follow the Q rules and forsake Team or risk having their businesses terminated. Every one of these lawsuits seeking TROs were from individual Team IBOs seeking to prevent Q from making good on that good business practice.
The whole point is this: while Q would like Team to follow the rules, they refused, and requested permission to break more rules. Then, TEAM resorted to “legal spamming” and “forum shopping,” each and every one of those lawsuits were unjustified. And, here we are again, judging Team based solely on some judge in Texas, because the the case is posted on the freetheibo site, and was rejected by the judge.
So, let’s speed up and not be too slow to judge, we know enough as it is.
Monster Mash #37,
Now, if Quixtar isn’t Amway, why are the distributor rules being created by the Amway Distributor’s Association Board? Because they weren’t created by the ADA Board, they were created by A/Q. The ADA Board has the ability to comment and provide input, but the “creation” word can’t be used to describe the ADA’s limited role.
Now why would Quixtar registar as a corporation in Delaware? Is it to there advantage? In fact it is. Many companies incorporate in Delaware, because it has favorable corporate laws which attract many companies, not just Quixtar.
Why would TEAM want to have its court cases outside of Michigan (GR area to be more specific)? That’s a good question, because TEAM is based in Michigan, not because the glasses of the judges in GR are clouded with VanAndel and Devos. That should not be hard for anyone to see.
Sherlock #38,
I’ve seen the documents on Orrin’s negative PR campaign, and his desire to waive the 6 month rule, a clear indication something is baking in the TEAM oven. However, Orrin “Rosie Ruiz” Woodward’s head is spinning, after mounting numerous lawsuits, losing any of them where Quixtar shows up, and some even when Quixtar wasn’t there (how do you do THAT?) and not having a clue how he’s going to deliver his promise to his mindless Orrinites how he intends to be the “Walmart of the Internet”, because he forgot Walmart is already on the internet. Drats, those little details are a pain in the Crisco.
Now he’s scampering around trying to bake more cookies as presents for his followers, but he sold the recipe to his lawyers, running low on cash for some darn reason.
Don’t worry, Orrin, Sherlock is here to “help” you solve the problem. Any way you spell it, forwards, backwards, or scrambled up, it’s looking pretty bad for the Orrinite side. Don’t put all the eggs on your face, Orrin, save some for that next batch of cookies, to be served to your kookies.
Piet #39,
Haven’t seen that movie, but the Kenny Rogers song applies, “You’ve got to know when to hold ‘em, know when to fold ‘em, know when to walk away, know when to run…”
Sorry “amazed”, I do occasionally like American culture, even here in snobby Europe.
October 3rd, 2007 at 3:35 pm
Moderator,
I’m okay with the sentence you removed. Was it a coffee spitter?
October 3rd, 2007 at 3:37 pm
Wondering #32
If you owned a McDonald’s franchise, would you be a business owner? If you say yes, ask yourself the same questions in your original post. Welcome to the world of owning your own business but having to work within the rules of your supplier.
October 3rd, 2007 at 4:02 pm
LisBette # 47
Perhaps you could post the letter in it’s entirety so we may get a better understanding.
Thank you,
Ros
October 3rd, 2007 at 4:02 pm
The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him. (Proverbs 18:17)
October 3rd, 2007 at 4:16 pm
Does anybody work around here? Maybe Tex is job optional already and has time to pontificate every minute of the day. Ahhh…living the dream!
I’m going to pop a Monster Energy drink while doing some laundry in Tide and dreaming about the day TEAM Blasts off and changes the world!
October 3rd, 2007 at 4:21 pm
For those upset about the latest Q email:
The heart of the message is this: “All solicitation by IBOs of IBOs who are not personally sponsored to attend meetings and functions where the QUIXTAR business is not promoted and where a competing business is promoted are clear violations of Rule 4.14″
Which boils down to: “Solicitation to attend meetings that promote the competition rather than Q are prohibited.”
This means two things:
1) While solicitation is prohibited, you are free to attend such meetings if you so choose.
2) You are free to attend if the meeting has nothing to do with promoting the competition.
Just thought I’d point these things out.
October 3rd, 2007 at 4:29 pm
toomuchtex #40,
I won’t build because too many people are using a tool scam, which puts us all at risk until it is shut down. That’s what I means by “I won’t build because the time’s not right.” You appologize? For what, not knowing how to spell apologize? I’m not a coward in search of an excuse, I’m a truth teller who’s disliked by lying cowards, which suits me just fine. The feeling is mutual.
matthew #41,
You know what the levels are, and what gets paid out on average as well at those levels? What’s the answer?
1st, the definition of scam…
—without looking at the dictionary, scam could loosely be defined as “taking advantage of people, decieving people to make a profit
what would your definition be? That sounds good to me.
2nd, how are tools a scam and how are tools from amway any different than any other LOA?
—the way i see it, and i could be wrong, but TEAM is the only LOA that shares profit from the system in any organized way. —– You are wrong, many other organizations share profit in an organized way, you are using how tool profits USED to be doled out. The tools from Amway are much less expensive, have you seen the prices for the CD’s and DVD’s that were available (and may still be, I haven’t checked lately). Therefore, much less profit is available.
In a previous LOA, my diamond upline would give tool profits to the downline emeralds, but would pick and choose who, and how much each recieved. The majority of profits stayed with the diamond, and some got distributed to his “good ole” friends. ——— And they may still do it that way, for all I know. But that is becoming less and less likely as time goes by.
Now in TEAM, I know that if I hit a certain level, I am compensated by profit sharing for helping bring more people into the TEAM. Anyone can hit this level, and people below me can hit higher levels than where i am at, and be compensated more for it that me. —— This is all fine and good, but you STILL haven’t quantified the AMOUNT of tool profit. If it was small compared to your Q income, you wouldn’t even have to tell, but if it is large compared to your Q income, you are misleading your downline, UNLESS you tell them how much you make on tools.
Now how is that a scam? The only way I can see your reasoning, is if you were supporting that tools be sold and distributed at cost and no profit. —— You can make as much profit as you would like, just be aware many of us consider you a liar and coward if you don’t get honest about the level of tool profits, there will soon be even more choices for IBO’s to make regarding the source of their tools, the FTC and/or Quixtar may get involved in the process, and the internet is eating you alive for not being forthcoming. Other than that, I don’t see any issues at all.
Now you know that Amway will not sell tools at cost, and will not share profits equally and evenly, yet I openly support them? How do you know all of this? What is your basis for these points? Where have I ever insisted Amway take over tools, how do you know they won’t sell them at cost, how do you know they are unwilling to share profits fairly, how do you know I openly support any of these points?
They will keep the profits in the family, how is that not worse of a scam? How do you know how much they will charge, do you think they have to charge the same amount as your current system? Is there some law I am not aware of? Isn’t this a perfect place for the IBOAI to show some leadership, for a change? You definitely don’t understand something, but if there was ever a scam, I’ve seen it coming from upline tools for decades.
Conan_78 #42,
This site is Grand Central Station compared to the freetheibo and IBOAI blogs. When this (the overall tool scam, not just TEAM) is cleared up, I will build my Amway business. Get a clue.
whatever #43,
A lawyer is capable of abusing both the judicial system and their clients pocketbook, I care about the first, I don’t care about Orrin “Rosie Ruiz” Woodward’s pocketbook, empty it out as far as I’m concerned. Turnabout is fair play.
doublehjooks #44,
You are mistaken, these lawsuits were a TRO to stop quixtar from making IBO’s sign an agreement to follow the Quixtar rules, or be terminated from Quixtar. Many IBO’s didn’t resign. As far as I know, Ron Simmons, the CEO of Legacy, which merged with TEAM recently, as well as other Platinums and above in the north Texas area, did not resign, so there is reason for the lawsuit. Too bad for them it has been removed as a barrier between Quixtar and these IBO’s having to sign the letter or get terminated.
dannie #45,
What state are you in, the state of confusion? If they were with Quixtar, they could have opened a competing one in 6 months. Looks like you got off easy. Did you have a non-compete in the contract when you bought the business from them? If you did, and used a lawyer, they should have been familiar with whether that part of the contract was enforcable.
Can you name examples, becuase my earlier search of the internet shows CA is rather unique in this regard.
No doubt the reason Team went out of Michigan is because the laws ARE more favorable there. I don’t wonder why Q incorporated out of state, I assumed it was a good business decision.
Ros #46,
You are entitled to your opinion, so am I.
LisBette #48,
Read the rules lately? For example, the rule regarding a 6 month non-compete that Orrin “Rosie Ruiz” Woodward asked to be given permission not to follow? Nothing “convoluted”, just the facts, ma’am.
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:04 pm
#56 Eagle Heart: Is Monster pretty good? I’ve never tried it…
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:20 pm
Tex #51,
My comment was not in reference to the “tool scam” (as you call it). I was commenting on the posted blog, which I thought was much more appropriate than hijacking the discussion to address a pet peeve of mine. We already have one expert in that practice here.
> When this whole thing broke out, a
> communication from Q requested that all Team
> Platinum IBOs agree to follow the Q rules and
> forsake Team or risk having their businesses
> terminated.
Sometimes I have to wonder where you’ve been, Tex. This particular email had nothing to do with following Q rules. It threatened to terminate the businesses of any Team Platinum that did not sign a letter stating their promise to completely forsake Team and pledge sole allegiance to Q.
> So, let’s speed up and not be too slow to
> judge, we know enough as it is.
Oh, really? We don’t even know which case is being referred to!
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:21 pm
As Captain Says: # 57
For those upset about the latest Q email:
The heart of the message is this: “All solicitation by IBOs of IBOs who are not personally sponsored to attend meetings and functions where the QUIXTAR business is not promoted and where a competing business is promoted are clear violations of Rule 4.14″
Which boils down to: “Solicitation to attend meetings that promote the competition rather than Q are prohibited.”
Is this is the same letter that LisBette # 48 mentions above?
If so, and if what Captain wrote is what the letter truly states, it appears she misunderstood the meaning of the letter.
It clearly states that “All solicitation….are clear violations of Rule 4.14″
It does not prohibit one from attending the meeting on their own. (Though for the life of me I do not understand why an active Quixtar IBO would).
Misunderstandings are easy to come by, here’s an illustration.
On a lighter side…
A doctor at a local university was trying to demonstrate the damaging effects alcohol had on the body to a group of new freshmen.
He placed two glasses on a table. In one glass he poured plain water, the other, alcohol.
He placed a worm in the glass filled with water. As expected, the worm simply crawled out over the top of the glass.
He then took the worm and placed it in the glass filled with alcohol, the worm instantly began to disintegrate and sink to the bottom of the glass of alcohol.
The doctor said, “As you can see, water causes no harm to the worm, but the alcohol totally destroys it. What do you deduce from this little demonstration?” (Feeling confident his point was well taken).
A student in the back of the room said, “Well, it looks to me that if I drink alcohol I’m sure not going to have any worms!”
Sometimes, even with our best efforts, they just sometimes miss the point!
Ros
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:24 pm
Not bad, but maybe you should check with Tex, he seems to be the expert on all topics.
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:30 pm
NG #50,
Does that mean you can’t go to church or a boy scouts meeting, or a weight watchers meeting? No, but you can stay at a Holiday Inn Express, and maybe you’ll wake up smart about the A/Q business the next morning.
But seriously, and for the new readers, the meetings you can’t attend are very narrowly focused, for a very specific amount of time. After NG goes to the Holiday Inn Express, he’ll probably know the exact answer to the above statement.
Tex #52,
It wasn’t totally removed, see message #33.
BK #53,
You’re right. Does BK stand for the BK Lounge, aka Burger King?
Ros #54,
It’s already posted, on another thread.
Captain #55,
That’s right, and that’s exactly why the TRO was originally approved, and why it was squashed in Texas yesterday.
Eagle Heart #56,
Does anybody work around here? Sure do. This takes only a few minutes out of my day.
I’m already to popped an XS Energy drink and did some laundry in SA8 (okay, it was my wife, but close enough, still used PV/BV) and dreaming about the day TEAM Blasts off and exits the universe!
Captain #57,
For those excited about the latest Q email:
The heart of the message is this: “TEAM sucks.″
Which boils down to: “TEAM sucks.”
This means two things:
1) TEAM sucks.
2) TEAM really sucks.
Just thought I’d point these things out. Actually, it means you can attend the meetings, but beware of spies, as they will be there to turn in those former IBO’s who notified you of the meeting. Also, keep in mind you can’t join the new scam until you quit your Quixtar business and 6 months pass if you took the initiative to find out about the meeting, and 2 years if you were invited.
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:30 pm
AEM # 15
Thank you for your kind words.
You are most welcome.
Sincerely,
Ros
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:38 pm
DLS Chicago #29
Hey!!! Honestly, I have no idea, but I could find out, so I’m guessing you can too. Just from one source — there have been (in total):
14 Diamonds
10 Founders Diamonds
06 Executive Diamonds
02 Founders Executive Diamonds
02 Double Diamonds
01 Founders Double Diamonds
01 Triple Double Diamonds
02 Founders Crowns
02 Founders Crown Ambassadors
01 40 FAA Credit
01 60 FAA Credit
Another list I founds shows:
50 Diamonds
10 Founders Diamonds
02 Founders Executive Diamonds
01 Crown
I’m not aware of the time frame on these — it is either an annual thing or in less time than that.
I recently had the opportunity to meet with several people who have recently broken Executive Diamond to Triple Diamond, and none of them were involved with the TEAM system. I hope that helps.
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:41 pm
Tex # 33
Your comments regarding AEM and myself were uncalled for, and inappropriate…you should apologize.
And I do not agree that your comments assist your/our cause as you claim, they cause any diplomacy to be discounted and puts everyone at odds with one another, defeating the main purpose of discussion, to find solutions to differences.
… call a spade a spade, as in rude behavior?
Regards,
Ros
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:44 pm
The only way to beat Tex is to stop blogging. Especially don’t ask him a question or respond directly to anything he writes. (I’m violating my advice, but I promise it’s the last time.) This is my rallying cry.
I intend to build a Quixtar business, and I don’t think the TEAM fiasco is going to slow things down that much. I see lots of evidence of success happening right now. Some of the pro-TEAM people have valid points. Others are trying to scare people with misinformation. Tex is in a league of own.
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:45 pm
tex, still waiting on your reply to my tool questions in #41
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:48 pm
Thanks NL, I was really looking for the 3 year time frame to use as reference, but it is interesting none the less. I wonder why the two lists are so different? What are the sources if you don’t mind me asking?
I tried looking them up on the Quixtar site but it seems they only show the same ones. It would be great if they would showcase the new achieved levels annually.
Thanks again!
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:49 pm
It seems by the letter of the letter that if my boy scout troup were going to sell christmas candles (or whatever), that it would be against Q/A rules to attend a boyscout meeting!!? I’m getting soo confused! Where do you draw the line anymore?
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:52 pm
Oh man I have a great one un-related although important fo rnew IBOs to know I figured I would give this whole AMWAY name a try in like 10 contacts and I did it very regular to what a normal business builder would do and i seroulsy got laghed at twice hung-up on and the rest said yah I herd about that a while ago i don’t do those pyrmid things so GOOD LUCK with that new IBOs i will try my luck elsewhere
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:55 pm
Aron Gannon Says: # 66
…I intend to build a Quixtar business, and I don’t think the TEAM fiasco is going to slow things down that much. I see lots of evidence of success happening right now. Some of the pro-TEAM people have valid points. Others are trying to scare people with misinformation. Tex is in a league of own.
I agree!
Less distraction and more action!
Here’s to your success! Stay focused!
Ros
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:58 pm
Ros #65,
An apology to you from the moderator’s desk. We attempted to edit out the offending line before posting — and, obviously, mucked it up. We have gone in and back-edited to remove that section of the comment.
This may be a good time to remind all that, though we believe robust debate is a wonderful thing, we do reserve the right to edit for length or, when we think it necessary, content – particularly too-strong language and lines of debate that take us far afield from original topics.
October 3rd, 2007 at 6:08 pm
….to attend meetings and functions where the QUIXTAR business is not promoted and where a competing business is promoted are clear violations…
There is no competing business so I think all functions are cool to attend.
October 3rd, 2007 at 6:12 pm
Thank you Ros and thank you again moderator(s).
Thank you Captain for your clear simplification of the newest email. It sounds very threatening so that’s why people are upset.
To be honest, I think Q/Amway are frightening away the IBOs that are thinking of staying. I know some who left after the last one just because of the threatening tone of it.
October 3rd, 2007 at 6:15 pm
Tex #62,
Regarding your reply to my #55: we still don’t know if the September 4th Texas TRO is what’s being referred to here.
Regarding your reply to my #57: I can’t help but stand in awe of nature’s widely varied creative abilities. You’re an amazing example, my friend.
October 3rd, 2007 at 7:24 pm
#68 DLSChicago . . . actually - I just got that off the Quixtar site. I know now that usually that info is quarterly, but I’m not sure about online. You’d likely get more accurate numbers by just calling Quixtar.
I think it is sooo exciting that more people seem to be hitting the higher pin levels (above Diamond)!!! And with the new bonus incentives, people in my organization are thrilled!!! It also seems more people in my generation are starting to take advantage of this business opportunity and are succeeding, so I’m looking forward to what this next year could bring!!!
October 3rd, 2007 at 8:35 pm
Was the case dismissed or refered to a different court?
October 3rd, 2007 at 8:55 pm
#49 Girlpower,
you said…”In a sense, yes, you do sign your own paycheck. ……………… And if you didn’t work you’d have no money.”
Interesting take. And very much what I believed until Aug 9th. Assuming you build it big, what are you going to do when the corporation raises pricing on products again? nothing.
What are you going to do when the corporation decides the bonuses are too high? nothing.
Until Aug 9th I thought I had a IBOAI board I could count on to balance those possibilities.
Go ahead and slam my comments but they hold true. Any future IBO or ABO or whatever they call them is at risk and must defer without question to the corporation’s whims. No voice heard. Any of you in on the “Amway” name change meetings? me either. What if they decided to name it “Knuckleheads are us.” I guess you’d be a KBO. Post after post the corporation continues to blow my mind at the attitude towards successful business builders. Whom I’ve personally heard edify and congratulate for accomplishments on stage. I’ve been in front of Doug DeVoss giving praise to business builders that are now “bad guys”. I sit here reading this stuff and can only take so much.
Tex, you especially, you ask freely what pin levels people are as soon as they try and defend something you disagree with. What pin level are you? I’m sure it’s huge. If your blogging reflects your personality at all, I’m sure really huge.
Easy for everyone to flap lip about how TEAM is wrong and blah blah blah, this should be a sign of things to come. Can u not see how the corporation is handling this? I suppose as long as it’s mean spirited you’re happy about it. I bet you wouldn’t be if you were the target. I’m also not hiding behind some fake screen name. My name is Brad Obert, I’m still an IBO. I get checks. My business produces more income than it costs to operate and promote. Even with “system”. I credit my business to my investment into the “system” and my efforts.
I tried building this on my own for around 4 years and had zero success. So you may flap your lips, but I’m not sure what about. I believe systems work, and evidently so do most successful companies out there including AmQuix. Their operations use systems. Maybe you nay sayers should develop systems, systems to duplicate your negative attitude and happiness at other’s failures. I’m still waiting for someone to give me the name of 1 diamond who did it without the “tools”. Wierd how we can argue argue and argue but not respond to an obviously reasonable request.
I own a real estate company, requires yearly training, costs several hundred dollars per employee. My share of those education profits? zero
I also own a construction company, requires expensive yearly continued education, sometimes requires a plane ticket for the whole group. My share of those profits? zero
Can’t wait to read the replies.
October 3rd, 2007 at 8:59 pm
Captain #60,
I don’t recall the terms “promise to completely forsake Team” or “pledge sole allegiance to Q” in the letter. Can you point them out to me, or are we getting just a wee bit theatrical? You don’t think “pledging sole allegiance to Q” includes following the rules? By the way, Captain, your row boat is sinking. You know the one, the S.S. Orrin?
Eagle Heart #62,
Dont’ worry, he already ran it past me.
Ros #64/6,
Gag. Not a good idea to read those posts right after eating dinner.
Aron #67,
There is no way to beat me, I represent the truth. Stop blogging and I get in the last word, fine with me. You don’t have to ask me anything or respond to any of my posts, I’ll just barge into any conversation on my own, no problem. You can cry to your mama, for all I care.
I intend to build a Quixtar business, and I think the TEAM fiasco is going to speed up the end of the overall tool scam. I see lots of evidence of success happening right now. Some of the pro-TEAM people have valid points, they just pale in comparison to the TEAM problems. Others are trying to scare people with misinformation. I’m in a league of own, because I stick to the facts.
matthew #68,
Are you holding your breath? My response has been submitted earlier, it’s with the Moderator right now. Cool your jets.
tagteam #70,
Are you serious?
Fuddman #71,
We didn’t use the Amway word on a contact when it was Amway before, and we didn’t use the Quixtar word at the point of a contact, either. I know you’re fishing, but we’re not biting. Go cast your bait somewhere else.
Moderator #73,
Nobody was surprised more than me, I sent in a message (#52) when you still had the “on the edge” sentence in moderation, and agreed it could be regarded as going over the edge. Since “mucked it up” is obviously an acceptable term on this blog, you will probably see it used by yours truly, assuming you don’t have copyright claims, as the uplines’ tapes and CD’s have for much less noteworthy information. But then, you don’t make a profit on your information, at least not directly.
Reminder noted. Occasionally it is useful to test where the edge of the envelope is, as there are no such restraints on other sites.
October 3rd, 2007 at 9:09 pm
DLSChicago #74,
Go for it.
DLSChicago #75,
Be afraid. Be very afraid. http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/be%20afraid,%20be%20very%20afraid.html Oops, “amazed” caught me again, it’s a European (UK) link. Drats. I mucked it up again.
Captain #76,
Regarding my reply to your #55: we still don’t know if the September 4th Texas TRO is what’s being referred to here? I’m not losing any sleep over it. A loss for TEAM is a loss for TEAM.
Regarding my reply to your #57: I can’t help but stand in awe of nature’s widely varied creative abilities. You’re an amazing example, my friend. ———- Thank you, I get that feedback quite often.
October 3rd, 2007 at 9:09 pm
Tex,
I’m starting to figure it out. While scrolling through these comments, I’ve noticed you are on here ALL THE TIME! Let me guess, you’re 19 years old, live in the basement of your mother’s house and work midnights at a gas station. Its very easy to sit on the sidelines and be a critic. Get in the game of life and go out in live it instead of embarrassing yourself on here. If you believe in Amway so much, why aren’t you out promoting it?
October 3rd, 2007 at 9:13 pm
Thank you DLSChicago (# 74) for your comments and the thoughtful way you word them!
I can understand how some may feel the strong wording of the recent memos from Quixtar could be considered “frightening” or perhaps they misunderstand what they are say.
However, I do not believe Quixtar is trying to frighten anyone, on the contrary, I feel they did an excellent job in clarifying and ensuring everyone understands the rules. Of course, if everyone were to play by the rules in the first place, there would be no need for the memos.
Rather then being frightened or confused, if anyone has any questions regarding the memos or any other issues, I would recommend they contact Quixtar and ask to speak with their sales coordinator, they are very helpful and friendly and have answered my questions to my satisfaction.
Best regards!
Ros
October 3rd, 2007 at 9:30 pm
Na not fishing could care less really thought it was imprtant to let new ppl know about the business and if anyone i get in new i will make sure they know of the changes unlike the company did for many of us it just will not work at all for someone to even mention amay trust me!!
October 3rd, 2007 at 9:33 pm
#66 Ros
Good attitude.
#82 Blue
Go away, tex has been the most informative blogger since this series of BS started. Personally his/her opinions and views have been well balanced and respectable. You however bring nothing to this blog.
October 3rd, 2007 at 9:34 pm
Whoops that #66 should have been #72
October 3rd, 2007 at 10:02 pm
Tex,#58
thanks for your response to my question. While i have a strong disregard for the way that you treat others on this blog, i always appreciate honest opinions including yours, so thanks.
now i see where you are coming from on the tool scam, and while we don’t see eye to eye on the issue, that’s okay. The only thing that I question is this…
if it is bad to make more off system than the actual Q business, than what would happen if the system was the only product? what if there was no Q, and the product WAS the system? Nothing else, no sa8 or loc, or circuit city. Rather, the system is aimed at creating leaders in our everyday community that can pull together and fight moral and ethical issues as did the “greats” in our past history. is this still a tool scam?
the only reason why i bring this up, is I once heard(and never confirmed(and you might hit me with some hear-say mumbo jumbo))of another MLM whose focus it was to motivate people to accomplish their dreams and goals. They didn’t provide a “vehicle” per se, but just motivated. They utilized audios and meetings and conventions, similar to the systems on LOA’s for Q. People are paid off the audios and books. Is this MLM as a whole a scam? Just curious on your thoughts for that.
By the way, I am not referencing TEAM in no way for this example.
(also, you, in a previous post did mention your support of the amway tools. i dont have an exact quote, and don’t wish to go through your expansive amount of postings…but you said something to the fact that ‘the amway tools, or tools from amway are the only way that bsm’s can work’. Just so you know that I am not throwing out any unsubstantiated facts about what you say.
October 3rd, 2007 at 10:20 pm
Regarding my earlier comments # 83
Upon rereading the 2 memos, see (Message(s) forwarded), I want to retract my earlier comments that I could understand how they could be considered “frightening” or perhaps someone might misunderstand what they are saying.
I in fact find them very supportive and they do not contain any legalize, nor cause any alarm, and are in fact very straightforward. The tone is friendly and supportive towards the IBO.
If I had received either letter, I would feel Quixtar is reaching out to me to support and offer reassurance.
See, I was able to reconsider my original views.
Ros
October 3rd, 2007 at 10:21 pm
Thank you Blue #82, I just scrolled thru and read some of his BS and I think he is probably 47 and living in his mothers basement and most likely living off of her social security. He can’t possibly have a job or build a business with all the blog time he puts in. He’s like a backseat driver who never got a license. Get off TEX!! Give these people a break from your nonsense.
October 4th, 2007 at 12:43 am
Tex,
I left a post for you at the IBOAI Blog under “IBOAI Contract Renewed”. When you get some time I’d be interested in your answer.
This post is on the proceedings in Texas but I have a couple of questions for you.
1) Do you believe there are any good lines of sponsorship?
2) Do you believe there are any good tool and support systems out there?
3) Do you believe there are any good IBOAI board members?
4) Have you actually yourself experienced some of the abuses in this business you describe?
The reason I’m asking is I feel like I’m in a great LOS. I feel like our support system is a bargain for all the help and support I get. I have met several people who have served on the board in my LOS and they seem well intentioned and people of character who are very transparent. I don’t see the abuses that so many people talk about. I also realize that my LOS is a lot different than what the team guys were doing. I have never had a question, even a hard one, where I did not get an honest answer.
I have done other things in ny life and been involved in traditional business as an employee and an owner. The people I have met in this business are fantastic and eager to help even when there is nothing in it for them other than helping me succeed; which helps there pv too. Compared to the people I’ve been affiliated with on the outside and the people inside this business; this business wins hands down.
I understand there have been abuses in the past but I sure don’t see it from where I am at. I am by nature an optimistic happy person, but I am not stupid or naive.
I admire your tireless effort on these blogs and your attention to detail is admirable. I don’t think our glass is totally full yet, but I believe it is a long way from empty.
October 4th, 2007 at 1:55 am
Ros,
I can’t thank you enough for helping to allow open opinions to exist on this blog. It is really refreshing in these tense times.
That said, I have to say that Quixtar may not be trying to frighten IBOs but from my experience they are, especially the newbies. They are so afraid of network marketing now they can’t wait to get out. They may not continue to build their leadership skills through TEAM either but we’ll see.
Regarding your comment about following the rules, I’d like to say that I was taught to follow the Q/Amway rules by my upline and never heard otherwise on cds or at seminars. That’s what makes this whole thing so confusing to me and many others on TEAM. When Q/Amway accuses my organization of doing something I KNOW I am not doing personally, it is natural to begin to not trust Q/Amway. They might not have meant to do this but it was definitely done. Q/Amway needs to acknowledge that most of the TEAM members were not breaking the rules. The fact that Q flat out accused us of doing this is why TEAM members are leaving. They feel betrayed. Can you blame them?
Lastly, if there is no competing mlm, why would the threatening emails be necessary? I guess if one is eventually revealed or if we decide to join Herbalife or Mary Kay, it is good to know the rules we are currently bound by. I can acknowledge that Q/Amway would want to get that out there.
I have yet to see a competing mlm so until we hear of one, we are free to attend any TEAM, Steven Covey or Donald Trump function right?
October 4th, 2007 at 2:19 am
Matthew #87:
You’ll need to run your hypothetical (not TEAM) MLM past the legal requirements of the country where you live in. In the UK they are severely restrictive, in the US not so much.
The first, strongest requirement is that people need to be rewarded based on product sales for consumption. (I.e. no stock hoarding.) And not for bringing in new people into the business per se.
I joined Amway specifically for the training system, but I found very quickly (month or two) that the training system is useless if you don’t apply it.
So if you have a system where you run around from meeting to meeting to be motivated and inspired, and that is all it is, I would much rather go to church on Sundays, and attend a few church community projects.
I might be wrong, but I don’t see much of a future for a motivation MLM - Motivation is usually very individual driven - John Maxwell, et al comes to mind. But is extremely difficult to duplicate, which is vital in a MLM business.
October 4th, 2007 at 5:40 am
For all you Tex Fans, On qblog radio, You can get your fill of the most giberish you can get in 48 minutes: http://www.qblogradio.com/?p=81
Ros #88
> in fact find them very supportive and they do > not contain any legalize, nor cause any > alarm, and are in fact very straightforward. > The tone is friendly and supportive towards > the IBO.
Only they lied! Team has not held any open meeting for almost a month!
> Some of these are local Open meetings at > which IBOs openly encourage other IBOs to > leave Quixtar.
If you call Resorting to innuendos and insinuations of the spaghetti as examples of a professional corporation Communique they have a new kool-aid drink for you.
Alf (Surprise) I am Moving on with Team
October 4th, 2007 at 8:52 am
#36 Captain,
You can argue that the Calif. lawsuit should or should not have been filed. Q/A was ignoring the board, and most IBOs, most importantly violating the main reason and principle on which the company was founded and the Calif. lawsuit was several IBOs method of trying to wake Q/A up. It obviously didn’t work. Q/A, mostly Alticor has and is acting like a bully, IMHO.
You are correct, all the lawsuits filed to protect the businesses of IBOs who were being threated by Q/A if they had any other relationship with team, was and is justifiable.
I have not seen any proof that these IBOs have lost any of these cases. Q/A was in violation of their own rules and principles for this move. These last emails, based on current Team, are in violation of the MI clarification - if they mentioned Team or if they are enforced. They are scare tactics. The judge specifically said if Team didn’t violate 1-3, that Q/A had to stay out of Team’s business. Q/A has agreed to that ruling. That alone should stop Q/A from terminating any IBO without “due process” as outlined in the rules.
That said, how can Team be a competing business, unless it is the education system. They have no products. The education system they have is currently generic. Team is playing by the currently outlined rules. Q/A is not.
I am going to a seminar tomorrow for continuing education for my other non-competing business to remain licensed. They can not legally do anything about that. Any move by Q/A in my other business would be in violation of countless laws.
The only thing Team’s move could do, is stop in the future of me being able to write-off any meetings or support materials for my Q/A business. Anything purchased prior to 8/9 is still on the table, after that, I am not sure.
October 4th, 2007 at 10:45 am
Texas suits,
See
http://media.alticorblogs.com/2007/08/31/texas/
#5.
I remembered some court cases that stopped Q/A from terminating IBOs without “due process”.
So Tex’s comment that this closed Ron S or others TRO doesn’t make sense. I have not seen with case was closed and I would have thought 2 days would be enough time to scan and post the filings. Anyone seen them? Obviously if it was in Q/A interest to post the suit, it would be here.
They had Randy and Don’s filings up within hours.
October 4th, 2007 at 11:23 am
Blue #82,
You’re starting to figure it out? You’re basically wrong on every count. Perhaps we should play “Blue’s Clues”.
While scrolling through these comments, you’ve noticed I am on here ALL THE TIME? Sorry, I have many other things I do, try again.
Let you guess, I’m 19 years old, live in the basement of my mother’s house and work midnights at a gas station? Wrong, Wrong, and Wrong, Mr. Blue’s Clues. Perhaps we should take a commercial break and put our “thinking cap” on and try again.
It’s very easy to sit on the sidelines and be a critic? I’m not on the sidelines, Mr. Blue’s Clues. That commercial break didn’t help you at all, Mr. Blue’s Clues. I suggest a new show name, Mr. Blue is Clueless.
Get in the game of life and go out in live it instead of embarrassing myself on here? Do you have ANYTHING constructive to say? Do you have even a single clue about the tool scam, Mr. Blueclueless?
If I believe in Amway so much, why aren’t I out promoting it? I am promoting it, I am promoting cleaning up the scam so we can run an honest, ethical, and moral business that will survive over the long term. I suggest you read up on what is happening in the UK, and come back tomorrow for the same show, which repeats itself for a whole week, so you can catch on.
Ros #83,
You forgot “hugs and kisses”.
fuddman #84,
Have you taken a breath yet? That was one long sentence.
say no to TEAM #85,
On the contrary, Blue is a great example of how confused and misled people are. He is welcome to come back.
matthew #87,
Rich DeVos invited the tool scammers to do just that in 1983. Have you listened to or read the “Directly Speaking” recordings?
Whether you have a legitimate business by selling only leadership, motivation, etc. depends on a couple of things:
1. Do you preach you are financially successful because of the principles you applied, or because of the training you sell?
2. Do you claim to be “business partners” or “teammates” with the people you charge, or do you teach them you are running a leadership/motivational business, and your principles will help them?
Regarding Amway tools, I may have been a little sloppy when turning others’ statements around on them. I believe the tools could come from the LOS, but they may want to partner with Amway to produce the tools, as TIF did for a short time, because the lower prices will result in less profit, and it may not provide enough incentive for the IBO’s to keep producing the tools themselves. Amway can also do a better job of ensuring the tools have acceptable information in them with this arrangement.
October 4th, 2007 at 11:50 am
n2win #89,
Read my response to Blue. Same applies to you.
pvbvguy #90,
I’ve been kicked off the the IBOAI Blog, you’ll have to repeat your question here. That should tell you a lot about the IBOAI Blog, they operate just like the freetheibo site, they only want THEIR viewpoints posted, unlike this site.
1) Do I believe there are any good lines of sponsorship? Yes.
2) Do I believe there are any good tool and support systems out there? Yes.
3) Do I believe there are any good IBOAI board members? No.
4) Have you actually yourself experienced some of the abuses in this business you describe? Yes.
1. Have you asked them how much the typical Platinum and above makes from the tools?
2. If not, would you ask them?
3. If you did ask, what did they say?
Alf #93,
Thanks for the plug.
Only they lied, Team has not held any open meeting for almost a month? How does Q know they haven’t held Open meetings? They are still holding seminars, however.
“Some of these are local Open meetings at which IBOs openly encourage other IBOs to leave Quixtar. If you call Resorting to innuendos and insinuations of the spaghetti as examples of a professional corporation Communique they have a new kool-aid drink for you.” What does encouraging other IBO’s to leave Quixtar have to do with “innuendos and insinuations”? You are severely confused. You’ll fit right in with the rest of the TEAM members, Alf. Go TEAM. Far, far away!
Utah #94,
Now you’re considered a bully when you enforce the rules?
I haven’t seen any evidence that TEAM is dead yet, either. But I was standing half-way down the cliff they jumped from and saw them going by, and there’s no bungy cord, parachute, or soft landing below. Now all we’re doing is waiting to see and hear the “splat”.
Utah #95,
Perhaps Ron Simmons or someone else with TEAM could clarify. I think it may be taking Q some time to post the documents because they are still in the middle of other lawsuits and don’t want to shoot themselves in the foot, like TEAM has already done several times.
October 4th, 2007 at 11:56 am
Utah #94
I was not saying anything, one way or the other, about the California case - just talking about the Texas TRO. I agree with everything else you’ve said.
Neither have I seen any proof that IBOs have lost any of their cases. However, I have seen proof that several of them have won. Remember when a “record of 12-3″ was news? The 12 wins were mainly TROs for individual IBOs seeking to prevent Q from continuing their campaign of intimidation. And, despite A/Q/A spin, these suits were filed in different states, not because Team was “legal spamming,” but because these IBOs lived in different states.
October 4th, 2007 at 12:09 pm
Tex #97
“I’ve been kicked off the the IBOAI Blog, you’ll have to repeat your question here. That should tell you a lot about the IBOAI Blog, they operate just like the freetheibo site, they only want THEIR viewpoints posted, unlike this site.”
I know this is pointless to ask, because I already know the answer, but: have you ever considered that it is not your viewpoints, but your rude and abusive manner, that gets you treated like this?
What goes around, comes around, my man.
October 4th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
Tex: Your response to NL is fine; length on response to Brad O. tips the scale. Mind condensing?
Potshots are a’plenty, but not always necessary. This goes for everybody.
The Ruiz thing is a tad stale. Our two bits.
As you were…
October 4th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
NL #77,
The problem with the apparent growth is as one group grows, others shrink, and the overall size is stagnant. You can have some short term success, but then it goes away.
When the tool scam is taken care of, as it has been in the UK, and the lesser need of additional price reductions are implemented, we will have a decent business.
At that point, your giddiness and excitement will have a foundation it can rest upon.
Brad Obert #79 (part 1 of 2),
The sky is falling, the sky is falling!
What are you going to do when the corporation raises pricing on products again? Do you really think in this day and age, with the internet and blogs, the corp can raise prices and we would do “nothing”? Get a grip, Brad Obert.
What are you going to do when the corporation decides the bonuses are too high? See above and get a clue, Brad Obert.
Until Aug 9th you thought you had a IBOAI board you could count on to balance those possibilities? They have been proven to be liars and cowards, why would you believe that, Brad Obert?
Go ahead and slam your comments but they hold true? Not even close, Brad Obert.
Any future IBO or ABO or whatever they call them is at risk and must defer without question to the corporation’s whims? See above, Brad Obert.
No voice heard? Your voice is here, Brad Obert. Wake up and smell the coffee, Brad Obert.
Any of you in on the “Amway” name change meetings? No, they didn’t ask me about the name change to Quixtar, either, Brad Obert.
What if they decided to name it “Knuckleheads are us.”? You guess you’d be a KBO? Are you trying to have a serious discussion, Brad Obert?
Post after post the corporation continues to blow your mind at the attitude towards successful business builders? That’s because their “success” is built upon the tool scam, Brad Obert. They’re not really successful at all, Brad Obert.
Whom you’ve personally heard edify and congratulate for accomplishments on stage? Me too, Brad Obert, but they were running a scam. Many people in history were “worshipped” until it was found they ran a scam, Brad Obert.
You’ve been in front of Doug DeVos giving praise to business builders that are now “bad guys”? Me too, Brad Obert. What’s your point, Brad Obert?
You sit here reading this stuff and can only take so much? How about the millions of Distributors/IBO’s that have been ripped off for several decades for hundreds of millions to billions of dollars, Brad Obert? How about them, Brad Obert?
Tex, me especially, I ask freely what pin levels people are as soon as they try and defend something I disagree with? Isn’t it an honor to tell which pin you have, Brad Obert? Aren’t these people proud of their tool scam income, Brad Obert? Don’t they want to brag about their tool scam “success”, Brad Obert? How about you, Brad Obert?
What pin level am I? It’s none of your business, because I don’t participate in the tool scam, Brad Obert.
You’re sure it’s huge? Everything is relative, Brad Obert.
If my blogging reflects my personality at all, you’re sure really huge? See above, Brad Obert.
Easy for everyone to flap lip about how TEAM is wrong and blah blah blah, this should be a sign of things to come? What “sign” are you talking about, Brad Obert?
Can u not see how the corporation is handling this? Sure can, and I am very happy with how this is moving along, Brad Obert.
You suppose as long as it’s mean spirited I’m happy about it? It will be mean spirited until the scammers and their supporters are gone, Brad Obert.
You bet I wouldn’t be if I were the target? I don’t scam people on tools, Brad Obert.
You’re also not hiding behind some fake screen name? Good for you, Brad Obert. That’s your choice, Brad Obert.
Your name is Brad Obert, you’re still an IBO. Really, I didn’t know that, Brad Obert.
You get checks? Me too, Brad Obert.
Your business produces more income than it costs to operate and promote? What is your PV volume, structure, and net income, Brad Obert? How many of your IBO’s can make the same statement, Brad Obert?
October 4th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
Brad Obert #79, (part 2 of 2)
Even with “system”? You make it sound like it was despite the system, not because of it, Brad Obert.
You credit your business to your investment into the “system” and your efforts? The real question is, what would your business be making in net profit, and those of your group, if the main goal of the upline was to make Q profit, not tool profit, Brad Obert?
You tried building this on your own for around 4 years and had zero success? Why are there only 2 choices, full tool scam or no tools, Brad Obert?
So I may flap your lips, but you’re not sure what about? I am, Brad Obert.
You believe systems work, and evidently so do most successful companies out there including AmQuix? So do I, but can’t you admit there are good systems and bad ones, Brad Obert?
Their operations use systems? Of course they do, Brad Obert.
Maybe us nay sayers should develop systems, systems to duplicate our negative attitude and happiness at other’s failures? I have developed my own system, but if the overall problem isn’t fixed, my system will not survive, because A/Q will not survive, Brad Obert.
You’re still waiting for someone to give you the name of 1 diamond who did it without the “tools”? It won’t come from me, see above good and bad system answer, Brad Obert.
Wierd how we can argue argue and argue but not respond to an obviously reasonable request? You can say that again, Brad Obert.
You own a real estate company, requires yearly training, costs several hundred dollars per employee. Your share of those education profits? zero? In other words, you aren’t interested in training your employees to make money on the education, but on what they learn so you can buy/sell real estate better, Brad Obert. Do you tell others you are a successful real estate guy, when you are really making most of your bucks on training your employees, Brad Obert. No. That is NOT what the upline does, as they promote Q and claim they are successful at Q, but they are really successful from their tool scam system, Brad Obert.
You also own a construction company, requires expensive yearly continued education, sometimes requires a plane ticket for the whole group? Same as above, Brad Obert.
Your share of those profits? zero? See above, Brad Obert.
Can’t wait to read the replies? There’s mine, Brad Obert.
You may have noticed I said your name quite a few times. That was to get you over yourself. You have “seen your name in lights”, and “had your 15 minutes of fame” now, so let’s get to the facts instead of just you. It isn’t about you or me, it’s about the overall tool scam. You just proved, by your real estate and construction company examples, how the upline that claims us as their “teammates” and “business partners”, is neither. Answer my questions honestly and you may start to “get it”.
October 4th, 2007 at 12:54 pm
Captain #100,
If you want to discuss the issues in a civilized manner, I am more than willing to do so. Your turn.
Admin #101,
Although Rosie Ruiz is a stroke of brilliance (if I may so myself, with every fiber of humility in my being), I understand how it is getting stale to the returning readers.
However, the new readers (and “old” readers who still haven’t figured it out, even though it is a quick google search away) should understand Rosie entered the Boston Marathon a few years ago and pretended to win the race. For a few minutes, she was congratulated, until it was found she cheated by entering the race near the finish line. The parallels to how Orrin entered the A/Q “race” long after it was started and appeared to be a success until it was found he was cheating are remarkable.
However, in the interest of entertainment value and not wanting to be considered “stale”, I will find another analogy, and it won’t be the “H” person, either.
I would be as “happy as a clam” if you wanted to tighten up the “potshots”. I would prefer to discuss the issues, but have found through experience the only way to survive in the blog world is to fight fire with fire.
As you were….
October 4th, 2007 at 2:57 pm
TEX:
I, as well as many others here I’m sure, are curious about a couple things:
1. Just what have you done in your life that qualifies you to speak with such (self righteous) authority on so many aspects of business?
2. Have you ever built a successful business of any kind?
October 4th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
FRED HARTEIS STATEMENT
Interesting statement of clarification by Fred Harteis on the IBOAI Blog, but no one seems to be commenting on it over there…
October 4th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
Another win?????? It makes you think how perception is only as good as the heart behind it. It is a sad day when a corporation continues to skew facts trying to deceive the public. Enron, Worldcom, Amway????
October 4th, 2007 at 4:52 pm
Hey Tex,
I am an IBO, I love AMWAY and I am NOT in TEAM nor am I even in USA.
I did not care to comment so far, until your repetitive insults and jarring attacks on TEAM kept interrupting my flow of thoughts as I am reading all the others’ comments.
Can you please speak with more sympathy for all my fellow (ex-)IBOs in TEAM who feel that their independence business ownership have been taken away from them and are fighting for their livelihood?
Would YOU like to be the one to be terminated after achieving Founders Diamond and losing year-end bonuses just 1-2 months before September?
Speaking of which, why “terminate” INDEPENDENT BUSINESS OWNERS? Can the business I own “terminate” me? That is the question people are asking me now.
Thanks.
October 4th, 2007 at 6:51 pm
Tex #97
Your welcome for the plug, Maybe you should not have done this on 8/13/06 FRIDAY THE 13TH. It appears you not only were kicked off there blog, but you were also the last podcast they did, You must be good luck! Now I thought you were Tex? are you also Ros? Just wondering since you seemed it was up to you to respond to me on there behalf. But since You asked “How does Q know they haven’t held Open meetings?” I ask then “How does Q Then say we are openly encouraging other IBOs to leave Quixtar?” There insinuation is that we are! Once again They LIED.
Team is a Leadership Development Service Provider (LDSP) designed to help individuals learn leadership principles. Any meetings and Our seminars and Majors are for our Business not for Q. This is not a MLM or a competing business with Q period.
If you call Resorting to innuendos and insinuations of the spaghetti as examples of a professional corporation Communique they have a new kool-aid drink for you.
” What does encouraging other IBO’s to leave Quixtar have to do with “innuendos and insinuations”? You are severely confused.”
If you were minding your own business you would not be confused! I was refering to Ros’s post “in fact find them very supportive and they do not contain any legalize, nor cause any alarm, and are in fact very straightforward. The tone is friendly and supportive towards the IBO.”
I was stating that in the two e-mail’s and the s