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Alticor Media Blog is the official news weblog from the Alticor family of companies.
October 2nd, 2007 @ 11:02 pm ET…
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Filed by: Corporate Communications
Posted in: Alticor, Amway, Quixtar, Transformation
October 2nd, 2007 at 11:15 pm
Did the judge only throw the case out of Texas, or did he also direct the spaghetti in the direction of CA or MI?
Let’s not forget, these “forum shopping” tactics are a massive waste of all of our taxpayer dollars, and delay other cases that should be getting their timely days in court.
Of course, you have the story all wrong, as the Orrinites (followers of Orrin “Rosie Ruiz” Woodward) will simply say this apparent defeat for them is merely part of their “strategy”, just like the high-tailing Randy Haugen and Don Wilson are part of some grand plan for their plan to success. There are many uses for LOC, but you’re not supposed to sniff it, TEAM.
Does this mean the TRO granted in Texas is no longer in existance? Does this decision help with the other similar TRO’s that have been filed across the country?
October 3rd, 2007 at 12:33 am
This is pretty funny that TEAM is filing lawsuits all over the country… all that does is cost money for everyone involved when the cases should be handled in Michigan since both corporations are based there.
October 3rd, 2007 at 12:37 am
Tex, you still haven’t answered my question about the tool scam. Are you avoiding my question?
October 3rd, 2007 at 12:38 am
Please explain where Quixtar is incorporated. I have heard it is Michigan, Virginia or some overseas location. The best I have seen was included below. If it is Michigan, it would give Alticor some credibility.
Searched for: QUIXTAR INC.
ID Num: 641314
Entity Name: QUIXTAR INC.
Type of Entity: Foreign Profit Corporation
Resident Agent: THE CORPORATION COMPANY
Registered Office Address: 30600 TELEGRAPH ROAD STE 2345 BINGHAM FARMS MI 48025
Mailing Address: MI
Formed Under Act Number(s):
Incorporation/Qualification Date: 1-29-2001
Jurisdiction of Origin: VIRGINIA
Number of Shares: 1,000
Year of Most Recent Annual Report: 07
Year of Most Recent Annual Report With Officers & Directors: 06
Status: ACTIVE Date: Present
October 3rd, 2007 at 1:00 am
ALTICOR BLOGGER, excellent post and just the right tone.
October 3rd, 2007 at 1:06 am
Defeat? It’s a change of venue, not a defeat.
October 3rd, 2007 at 1:25 am
While it’s a shame they (Team leaders Orrin and Chris) chose not to play by the rules and now continue to try these tactics, I’m glad the judge wasn’t influenced by their charades.
Tex – While I appreciate you zeal to stand with Quixtar, as I do, and I certainly do not agree with how Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady have acted including filing the lawsuit in CA which is full of false accusations.
However, it serves no useful purpose to insult and call names. Orrin deserves to be called by his name, Orrin. I would ask you to respect that, just as you would expect others to call you by your name.
That also goes for casting insulting remarks for those that support him, please be respectful, agree or not, do not attack by calling names. Disagree, yes, insult NO!
You do not help our cause, and I for one do not appreciate it.
Respectfully yours,
Ros
Dear Alticor Media Blog Moderator, I respectfully request that when anyone posts and insults another with name calling or other petty belittling remarks, you do not post it, and you may want to remove any previously posted. They have no place in a forum where we should have mature respectful commentary, discussing ideas, solutions and expressing our opinions of the topics. Thank you.
October 3rd, 2007 at 1:35 am
But Tex? I thought that hte TRO’s filed by Orrin “not Rosie” didn’t matter. So why do you care?
October 3rd, 2007 at 2:16 am
Who’s being cynical? It seems pretty obvious by your post. Yesterday Orrin,Chris Randy and Chuck and many others on the Team were poster children for Quixtar. Now they are “massively cynical and abusive” hum? Many IBO’s respect these people. You are coming across pretty desperate to give some, so called “bad news”.It’s pretty exciting to me to know that every day the court hearing goes on ,it’s one more day that a judge somewhere is hereing our side. That we (the Team ) just want to be free. Don’t forget people, it would’t have went this far if Quixtar woul’n't have let it!
October 3rd, 2007 at 2:23 am
Don’t rush to post the documents, I’m sure the freetheibo site will have them up momentarily, right Orrin?
After all, it is “The Destination for Lawsuit Coverage”.
October 3rd, 2007 at 2:28 am
“Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practise to deceive.”
October 3rd, 2007 at 8:07 am
#1 Tex:
I’m sure that getting laughed at in Texas is all part of their master-plan, don’t ya know?
October 3rd, 2007 at 9:13 am
True Both TEAM and Quxtar are both MI based companies but both companies did do business in every state in the USA. To me this only means one thing! Quixtar is no longer doing business in Texas! Therefore TEAM had no case!
October 3rd, 2007 at 9:35 am
I’m having a hard time following all of these court proceedings. Amway is accusing Team of forum shopping, but what about the actions in England and India. Are they forum shopping as well? Although Team’s case in Texas got slam dunked, that doesn’t change the fact that the legitimacy of Amway is being questioned in England and India, and soon to be other markets as well I’m sure. Those other countries, ours included, can read all the stuff on the net. It seems like anywhere Amway has a presence, a fire erupts. Are the IBOs to blame, or is it the company?
October 3rd, 2007 at 10:13 am
ros,
Wonderfully put. Who ever writes the Altico blog should pay attention to the tone of what you wrote, thank you for disagreeing respectfully. Thank you more for your comments directed to tex.
October 3rd, 2007 at 10:23 am
Piet, that’s hilarious… I was thinking of posting exactly the same quote. Good on you!!!
(Sir Walter Scott, isn’t it?)
October 3rd, 2007 at 10:24 am
I think this constant filing of legal action is part of Orrin’s threatened PR attack. It also might get him an opportunity to find a sympathetic judge.
However, with every loss, this is looking more and more like a big waste of time and money on the part of TEAM. Do they really want to get into a legal spending-spree with Quixtar/Amway/Alticor?
Make no mistake about it, getting your case booted out of court is a loss. Mr. Poyfair is not working pro bono for TEAM. By the time all this is said and done, TEAM may not even exist but Mr. Poyfair will be in very good shape.
October 3rd, 2007 at 10:31 am
what is forum shopping?
October 3rd, 2007 at 10:55 am
Tex, with due respect, your comment about the IBOAI moderator on the other thread was over the line. I would ask that you consider having it withdrawn. As Ros noted, there are many of us who agree with much of your core argument, but that comment did not assist your/our cause. Perhaps even an apology to the IBOAI moderator would not be too much. The board members who were trying to protect their tool income business left in August. The Board we have now is clean.
Alticor Moderator, this blog COULD be a place for intelligent, respectful, hopefully persuasive dialogue if you were to firm up a bit on posting protocol and etiquette. I think it could be done without driving people away.
October 3rd, 2007 at 10:59 am
The entire tone of this press release by Amway is cocky and degrading. For a company that is always concerned with decorum, you consistantly break your own rules.
Its a long race so don’t get too cocky, too early Amway. A constant reminder to you should be what’s happening in the UK! Oh, I’m sorry, that was caused by our reckless IBO’s and their sorry tools…not our fault!
October 3rd, 2007 at 11:00 am
NG,
Forum shopping is a term used for filing a lawsuit in a particular court because you believe the Judge(s) in that court have beliefs or tendencies favorable to your position.
October 3rd, 2007 at 11:07 am
NG,
Forum shopping might also be done when one believes that a particular court has greater familiarity or experience with a certain issue or area of the law.
October 3rd, 2007 at 11:17 am
Ros,
its a blog, not a legal hearing.
“dear alticor blog mod, please censor everyone because the first ammendment doesnt apply to those without respect to orrin woodward. Only allow those who dont make team look bad post. A frank and open discussion of ideas shouldnt be allowed if someone puts a speck of emotion into their thoughts.”
TEAM is a scam. The “leaders” are playing dirty after being shown the door and from what I get out of it, those who followed orrin into this are starting to regret it.
Im sure just like me everyone is sick of hearing about pointless law suits benig carried out in texas, california, etc. and just want some closure on this issue.
October 3rd, 2007 at 11:20 am
Bill Smith, I agree with you that some of the earlier posts missed the mark on tone and decorum, but I think they were pretty good with this one. Regardless of which side you’re on, this particular Texas action was dismissed, and the Alticor blogger was reasonable, level headed and measured in how they wrote up their win. I’m looking forward to more of the same measured, modest tone when they subsequenly post links to the relevant documents.
With appreciation,
October 3rd, 2007 at 11:25 am
rdknyvr, I agree.
I came to the blogs to help me make a decision. Keeping an open mind was difficult with all of the insults.
I disagree however that the board is clean now.
October 3rd, 2007 at 11:25 am
LAME….
That’s all i can say to this post. Where are the details…What has been written here is a conumdrum of words put together, but with no destination in mind. I like hearing the facts, not some baseless report of a court hearing that was thrown out based on location(i am assuming that was the reason why it was thrown out).
Post some info regarding the court case, and then maybe all of us can formulate and educated opinion of what’s going on.
October 3rd, 2007 at 11:29 am
#13 spaceshot:
I assure you that there are many IBOs in Texas. Duh.
October 3rd, 2007 at 11:39 am
Shaun #2,
As you know, the next to last place TEAM wants to be is in a Michigan courtroom. The last place they want to be is involved in the Quixtar arbitration process.
They want to be in California, because the UCSR (Union of California Socialist Republics) is the only state that has any regard for TEAM’s position on the non-compete rule.
matthew #3,
No, you got my response. If you want to rephrase the question, feel free to do so.
Utah #4,
My understanding is Quixtar is incorporated in Virginia.
rdknyvr #5,
I agree, we can further enhance the tone.
AEM #6,
Get the he!! out of Texas isn’t a defeat? I think it is the first of many dominoes that will fall across the country. Without a case in Texas, Quixtar can use the Michigan decision, which isn’t nearly as friendly to the Orrinites as the Texas TRO, so this is MUCH more than a simple change of venue.
Ros #7,
It’s not my blog, I am merely following the existing guidelines. If the guidelines change, so will I. But for this blog to be nice and sugary while Orrin “Rosie Ruiz” Woodward is trying to get Quixtar labeled as an illegal pyramid and the nasty AND one-sided comments continue on the pro-TEAM blogs, I think the current guidelines strike a good balance. If you are offering cupcakes while the other side is slinging mud, you get buried in the blog world, simple as that. You don’t butcher a pig without getting some of the mud on yourself.
Jerad #8,
But Jerad? I thought that you realized TRO’s filed by Orrin “Rosie Ruiz” Woodward and his Orrinites are TEMPORARY and one-sided rulings, because Quixtar wasn’t even present in the Texas court room when they were issued. Now the Orrinites are exposed to the Michigan court ruling, which included both sides in the debate, is NOT temporary, and not nearly as friendly to TEAM. That’s why I care.
revolution #9,
Who’s being stupid? It seems pretty obvious by your post. Yesterday Orrin, Chris, Randy, Chuck and many others on the Team were poster children for Quixtar? Not so fast, it appears Quixtar was outwardly not making them look bad, but behind the scenes they were getting multi-year whuppings. It has to do with privacy and being patient, not being “poster children”.
The comment “massively cynical and abusive” was referring to their lawyers, not the IBO’s, and don’t forget “…“forum shopping,” the massively cynical, abusive and wasteful legal tactic that class action lawyers like those representing Orrin Woodward employ.”
Many IBO’s respect these people? I respect the Orrinite lawyers for working hard for their clients and trying every sleazy tactic to maximize their billable hours to extract as much of my tool scam profit from Orrin “Rosie Ruiz” Woodward as they can, if you want to call that respect.
Quixtar is coming across pretty desperate to give some, so called “bad news”? Looks to me like a clear Quixtar victory, who’s desperate now?
It’s pretty exciting to me to know that every day the court hearing goes on, it’s one more day that a judge somewhere is hearing Quixtar’s side, and so far agreeing with it in unanimous fashion.
That you (the Team ) just want to be free, what a bunch of garbage. Don’t forget people, it would’t have went this far if TEAM wouldn’t have let it, by filing the CA and other lawsuits!
October 3rd, 2007 at 11:49 am
Does anyone know how many diamonds were created in Q/Amway over the last 3 years outside of TEAM? I am just wondering how quickly the rest of Q/Amway typically grows.
October 3rd, 2007 at 11:49 am
So tex, why not demonstrate the right wat to build this business; get your face and story in Achieve. Lead us tex. If your breath doesn’t stink, put on a tie and go register some people. Duplicate yourself. Help some others win. You’ve been more than willing to regurgitate the flaws, now model the path for all of us to follow. Or are you a coward in search of an excuse?
October 3rd, 2007 at 11:52 am
Piet #11,
Hey “amazed”, there’s a “European” word for you, although I think Piet is from South Africa, but they spell “practised” different than those of us in far western Europe, aka U.S.A., as we spell it “practiced”. Are you keeping up?
GirlPower #12,
Yes, I think the book they are using was originally named “Master Plan Your Disaster”, but the “Your Disaster” part got rubbed off.
spaceshot #13,
Quixtar has an RDC (Regional Distribution Center) in Texas, and is the second most populous state. Why would TEAM start a lawsuit in Texas if Quixtar had no business in Texas? I think you belong in space for saying Quixtar has no business in Texas.
Doug #14,
I’m not having a hard time following all of these court proceedings. A/Q is accusing Team of forum shopping in the U.S., but the actions in England and India are different countries having their own court systems. I have no idea if there is forum shopping going on in these other countries, but I doubt it. Team’s case in Texas got slam dunked, that doesn’t change the fact that the legitimacy of Amway is being questioned in England and India, and perhaps will be in other markets as well. Those other countries, ours included, can read all the stuff on the net. It seems like anywhere the tool profiteers have a presence, a fire erupts. Are the IBOs to blame, or is it the tool profiteers?
October 3rd, 2007 at 11:54 am
With everything going on in Amway (Alticor, Quixtar, etc) I am trying to see if this is really my own business? Let me do a quick check.
Do I sign my own pay check? No.
Can I legally sell my business? No.
Can I change my business model or technique? No
Can I add on any new lines of product? No.
Can I take on investors? No.
Can I incorporate at my leisure? No.
OK. Let me look up Self-employed on Dictionary.com
self-em ployed; earning one’s living directly from one’s own profession or business, as a freelance writer or artist, rather than as an employee earning salary or commission from another.
Are we, the ABO (Amway Business Owner), endangered in losing our legal status as business owners?
Will the IRS declare us something new in the future removing our business owner rights and privileges under the law?
I welcome informed responses.
It would be great to get an “official statement,” but the blog is for ABO’s to write and for the “officials” to monitor. This is “their” pulse on the business. This blog is “their” polling feature.
October 3rd, 2007 at 12:08 pm
Renshi_D #17,
You got that right. All the Orrinites are hearing the “cha-chings” quite loudly right now. I think Randy Haugen and Don Wilson heard them as well.
NG #18,
It’s where you race across the country, desperately looking for a sympathetic judge. We know there’s at least one in Texas who isn’t.
rdknyvr #19,
With due respect, my comment about the IBOAI moderator on the other thread was accurate, and neither he nor the IBOAI Board deserves respect.
You would ask that I consider having it withdrawn? I guess you wouldn’t want to see the blistering e-mail I sent him, would you? It made the post on the other thread look like a walk in the park, and it was accurate and fact-based as well.
As Ros noted, there are many of you who agree with much of my core argument, but that comment did assist your/our cause, because there are times when you have to call a spade a spade, and that was one of those occasions.
Perhaps even an apology to the IBOAI moderator would not be too much? Not likely, you’ve only seen the tip of the iceberg for all of the garbage e-mails he’s sent me.
The board members who were trying to protect their tool income business left in August, the Board we have now is clean? Not even close, the rest of them are making as much or more from the tools than the Orrinites did. Open your eyes. Read up on the UK tool scam developments, study the relative prices and resulting profits for the other lines of sponsorship. Get a clue.
Alticor Moderator, this blog IS a place for intelligent (from some of us), respectful (when appropriate), hopefully persuasive dialogue if you were to maintain the current posting protocol and etiquette. I think it is driving away those who do not seek the truth, a worthy goal.
October 3rd, 2007 at 12:14 pm
Bill #20,
The entire tone of this press release by Amway isn’t cocky or degrading, it’s factual. For a company that is usually concerned with decorum, you rightly took the gloves off long ago.
Its a long race so don’t get too cocky, too early Amway. A constant reminder to you should be what’s happening in the UK! Oh, I’m sorry, that was caused by our reckless IBO’s and their tool scam…not Amway’s fault, except they didn’t clamp down on this nonsense years ago! That’s right, the tools have been shut down in the UK, not the products.
whatever #21/2,
The first is forum shopping, the second is being a smart lawyer.
TEAM #23,
Amen.
October 3rd, 2007 at 12:17 pm
#22 Whatever: thank you.
October 3rd, 2007 at 12:22 pm
Let’s slow down folks.
Remember near the beginning, when Team IBOs filed a number of lawsuits seeking TROs? A/Q/A characterized that as legal spamming, splattering lawsuits nationwide, a negative PR campaign etc. But, there was a legitimate reason for each and every one of those lawsuits.
When this whole thing broke out, a communication from Q demanded that all Team IBOs swear allegiance to Q and forsake Team or risk having their businesses terminated. Every one of these lawsuits seeking TROs were from individual Team IBOs seeking to prevent Q from making good on that threat.
The whole point is this: while Q would like to smear Team for “legal spamming” or “forum shopping,” each and every one of those lawsuits were justified. And, here we are again, judging Team based solely on some news from Alticor when we still have no clue what this purported new case in Texas was all about.
So, let’s slow down and not be too quick to judge.
October 3rd, 2007 at 12:50 pm
Now, if Quixtar isn’t Amway, why are the distributor rules being created by the Amway Distributor’s Association Board? Van Andel elaborates:
“I am pleased to announce that Quixtar, Incorporated is a Delaware corporation, owned by the DeVos and Van Andel families.”
www.mlmsurvivor.com/quixtar.htm
Now why would Quixtar registar as a corporation in Delaware? Is it to there advantage? In fact it is.
Why would TEAM want to have its court cases outside of Michigan (GR area to be more specific)? Because the glasses of the judges in GR are clouded with VanAndel and Devos. That should not be hard for anyone to see.
October 3rd, 2007 at 12:51 pm
I’ve seen the documents on Orrin’s negative PR campaign and the new MLM. They are stored in a red metal box that is kept locked. Orrin sent the box to a monastery on top of a 16,000 ft peak located in Tibet. It is stored in a large chamber with 10,000 other boxes exactly like it. However, this has a different emblem stenciled on top of it. Look for the letter “Q” with a hammer and sickle. To get into the monastery, you will need a code word. That word is “Xet”, which is the Tibetan word for “Deceiver”.
Good luck in your search,
Sherlock
October 3rd, 2007 at 12:58 pm
rdknyvr:
Thanks. I might take the easy way out and say its from “Dead Poet’s Society” but if I remember correctly it was Puck (?) in the closing scene from A midsummer night’s dream by William Shakespeare.
October 3rd, 2007 at 1:20 pm
So tex, you won’t build because people use tools. You won’t build because the time’s not right. I appologize; you’re not a coward in search of an excuse-you’re a coward who’s found on.
October 3rd, 2007 at 1:28 pm
Tex # 28
sorry i missed your post on the last blog, that’s why i didn’t see it. i do know what the levels are, and what gets paid out on average as well at those levels.
i guess my question to you is two parts, and then we will be on the same page…
1st, the definition of scam…
—without looking at the dictionary, scam could loosely be defined as “taking advantage of people, decieving people to make a profit
what would your definition be?
2nd, how are tools a scam and how are tools from amway any different than any other LOA?
—the way i see it, and i could be wrong, but TEAM is the only LOA that shares profit from the system in any organized way. In a previous LOA, my diamond upline would give tool profits to the downline emeralds, but would pick and choose who, and how much each recieved. The majority of profits stayed with the diamond, and some got distributed to his “good ole” friends.
Now in TEAM, I know that if I hit a certain level, I am compensated by profit sharing for helping bring more people into the TEAM. Anyone can hit this level, and people below me can hit higher levels than where i am at, and be compensated more for it that me.
Now how is that a scam? The only way I can see your reasoning, is if you were supporting that tools be sold and distributed at cost and no profit.
Now I know that amway, will not sell tools at cost, and will not share profits equally and evenly, yet you openly support them. They will keep the profits in the family. How is that not worse of a scam? Maybe i don’t understand something there, but if there was ever a scam, I see it coming from amway tools.
October 3rd, 2007 at 1:47 pm
Tik tok, tik tok, tik tok. Every day It gets more and more quiet on this blog. Tex, you even have your own nipping at your heels. What are all of you going to do when this is settled and this TEAM thing doesn’t take up all of your time. Amway should get a shrink to be one of their partners. You could get some PV that way. I think you all are going to need it.============ You choose what one. ======
LOL
Conan
October 3rd, 2007 at 2:04 pm
Tex,
Thanks for your opinion on when forum shopping is acceptable and when it is not. I would say that “being a smart lawyer” includes trying anything within the law that improves your client’s chances of prevailing.
October 3rd, 2007 at 2:12 pm
If I am not mastaken these lawsuits were a tro to stop quixtar from making our ibo’s sign with them or be fired from quixtar. the ibos resigned so there was no reason for the lawsuit. Am I right
October 3rd, 2007 at 2:25 pm
Tex,
Just so you’re aware, my state also does NOT recognize any no compete..it’s a right to work state and it is on public record that a no compete is non enforceable. I know, I bought a biz that had one and the old owners went right out and opened a competing one in 18 months.
Many states…especially here in the south where I am, have such rulings. The individual probably will have to go to court to fight the entity trying to make it stick, but stick it won’t. It was not worth the money it would have taken for me to go to court & my atty, informed me I would lose anyway.
Maybe the reason Team went out of Michigan is because the laws ARE more favorable there….wonder why Q incorporated out of state ? Same reason ? Good for them…good for us.
October 3rd, 2007 at 2:41 pm
TEAM # 23
Tex # 28
Thank you for your replies.
As I said in my post # 7 above and others, I make no bones about it, I strongly disagree with the actions of Orrin and Chris. They are wrong. What they did was not right, and as a result they are trying to causing harm to Quixtar and my business. However….
It’s a matter of decency, it matters not the actions of the other, you must hold yourself to a higher standard, disagree, disagree strongly, voice your opinions, but do it in a civil manor and tone, less your words and points will loose their impact. Unless the point is nothing more then to incite, in which case you have hit the nail on the head.
Again, you do not serve our mutual cause of supporting Quixtar and our businesses by saying disparaging remarks and calling names.
Sincerely,
Ros
October 3rd, 2007 at 2:46 pm
So true. Great reminder, thanks Captain!
October 3rd, 2007 at 2:51 pm
This post is professional? You have to be kidding, right? Captain #35 says it right.
I received an email yesterday from the Quixtar Soviet Socialist Republic (QSSR) telling me I can only attend meetings that promote Quixtar. The QSSR apparently forgot we are in the United States and we have a Constitution with a Bill of Rights that specifically allows us to assemble peaceably. Even if it’s a TEAM assembly.
Where do these guys get off? And to you Quixtar-loyalists, how can you defend this? (Please Tex, that is a rhetorical question. I really don’t want your convaluted explanation on this. Let’s all just assume you think it’s A-okay for the QSSR to forbid attendance and any meetings that do not promote Quixtar.)
October 3rd, 2007 at 3:06 pm
#32 Wondering:
Do I sign my own pay check? No.
In a sense, yes, you do sign your own paycheck. There is no cap to what you can make. If you work, you make money. Just like any other business. If you owned a consulting business would you really write yourself a check? No, you’d simply use your profit. And if you didn’t work you’d have no money.
Can I legally sell my business? No.
Actually, yes, you can sell your Q business. It happens all of the time. If your business is worth buying another IBO will make you a deal.
Can I change my business model or technique? No
No. You can’t. However, if you were to buy a franchise restaurant you would own it, but still need to follow their structure.
Can I add on any new lines of product? No.
See above.
Can I take on investors? No.
See above
Can I incorporate at my leisure? No.
Yes. Many IBOs get a tax ID and incorporate themselves.
October 3rd, 2007 at 3:19 pm
so, does that mean I can’t go to church or a boy scouts meeting, or a weight watchers meeting? pulleeze!
October 3rd, 2007 at 3:26 pm
Captain #36,
Let’s speed up. The tool scam has been around long enough.
Remember near the beginning, when Team IBOs filed a number of lawsuits seeking TROs? A/Q/A characterized that as legal spamming, splattering lawsuits nationwide, a negative PR campaign etc. There was no legitimate reason for each and every one of those lawsuits.
When this whole thing broke out, a communication from Q requested that all Team Platinum IBOs agree to follow the Q rules and forsake Team or risk having their businesses terminated. Every one of these lawsuits seeking TROs were from individual Team IBOs seeking to prevent Q from making good on that good business practice.
The whole point is this: while Q would like Team to follow the rules, they refused, and requested permission to break more rules. Then, TEAM resorted to “legal spamming” and “forum shopping,” each and every one of those lawsuits were unjustified. And, here we are again, judging Team based solely on some judge in Texas, because the the case is posted on the freetheibo site, and was rejected by the judge.
So, let’s speed up and not be too slow to judge, we know enough as it is.
Monster Mash #37,
Now, if Quixtar isn’t Amway, why are the distributor rules being created by the Amway Distributor’s Association Board? Because they weren’t created by the ADA Board, they were created by A/Q. The ADA Board has the ability to comment and provide input, but the “creation” word can’t be used to describe the ADA’s limited role.
Now why would Quixtar registar as a corporation in Delaware? Is it to there advantage? In fact it is. Many companies incorporate in Delaware, because it has favorable corporate laws which attract many companies, not just Quixtar.
Why would TEAM want to have its court cases outside of Michigan (GR area to be more specific)? That’s a good question, because TEAM is based in Michigan, not because the glasses of the judges in GR are clouded with VanAndel and Devos. That should not be hard for anyone to see.
Sherlock #38,
I’ve seen the documents on Orrin’s negative PR campaign, and his desire to waive the 6 month rule, a clear indication something is baking in the TEAM oven. However, Orrin “Rosie Ruiz” Woodward’s head is spinning, after mounting numerous lawsuits, losing any of them where Quixtar shows up, and some even when Quixtar wasn’t there (how do you do THAT?) and not having a clue how he’s going to deliver his promise to his mindless Orrinites how he intends to be the “Walmart of the Internet”, because he forgot Walmart is already on the internet. Drats, those little details are a pain in the Crisco.
Now he’s scampering around trying to bake more cookies as presents for his followers, but he sold the recipe to his lawyers, running low on cash for some darn reason.
Don’t worry, Orrin, Sherlock is here to “help” you solve the problem. Any way you spell it, forwards, backwards, or scrambled up, it’s looking pretty bad for the Orrinite side. Don’t put all the eggs on your face, Orrin, save some for that next batch of cookies, to be served to your kookies.
Piet #39,
Haven’t seen that movie, but the Kenny Rogers song applies, “You’ve got to know when to hold ‘em, know when to fold ‘em, know when to walk away, know when to run…”
Sorry “amazed”, I do occasionally like American culture, even here in snobby Europe.
October 3rd, 2007 at 3:35 pm
Moderator,
I’m okay with the sentence you removed. Was it a coffee spitter?
October 3rd, 2007 at 3:37 pm
Wondering #32
If you owned a McDonald’s franchise, would you be a business owner? If you say yes, ask yourself the same questions in your original post. Welcome to the world of owning your own business but having to work within the rules of your supplier.
October 3rd, 2007 at 4:02 pm
LisBette # 47
Perhaps you could post the letter in it’s entirety so we may get a better understanding.
Thank you,
Ros
October 3rd, 2007 at 4:02 pm
The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him. (Proverbs 18:17)
October 3rd, 2007 at 4:16 pm
Does anybody work around here? Maybe Tex is job optional already and has time to pontificate every minute of the day. Ahhh…living the dream!
I’m going to pop a Monster Energy drink while doing some laundry in Tide and dreaming about the day TEAM Blasts off and changes the world!
October 3rd, 2007 at 4:21 pm
For those upset about the latest Q email:
The heart of the message is this: “All solicitation by IBOs of IBOs who are not personally sponsored to attend meetings and functions where the QUIXTAR business is not promoted and where a competing business is promoted are clear violations of Rule 4.14″
Which boils down to: “Solicitation to attend meetings that promote the competition rather than Q are prohibited.”
This means two things:
1) While solicitation is prohibited, you are free to attend such meetings if you so choose.
2) You are free to attend if the meeting has nothing to do with promoting the competition.
Just thought I’d point these things out.
October 3rd, 2007 at 4:29 pm
toomuchtex #40,
I won’t build because too many people are using a tool scam, which puts us all at risk until it is shut down. That’s what I means by “I won’t build because the time’s not right.” You appologize? For what, not knowing how to spell apologize? I’m not a coward in search of an excuse, I’m a truth teller who’s disliked by lying cowards, which suits me just fine. The feeling is mutual.
matthew #41,
You know what the levels are, and what gets paid out on average as well at those levels? What’s the answer?
1st, the definition of scam…
—without looking at the dictionary, scam could loosely be defined as “taking advantage of people, decieving people to make a profit
what would your definition be? That sounds good to me.
2nd, how are tools a scam and how are tools from amway any different than any other LOA?
—the way i see it, and i could be wrong, but TEAM is the only LOA that shares profit from the system in any organized way. —– You are wrong, many other organizations share profit in an organized way, you are using how tool profits USED to be doled out. The tools from Amway are much less expensive, have you seen the prices for the CD’s and DVD’s that were available (and may still be, I haven’t checked lately). Therefore, much less profit is available.
In a previous LOA, my diamond upline would give tool profits to the downline emeralds, but would pick and choose who, and how much each recieved. The majority of profits stayed with the diamond, and some got distributed to his “good ole” friends. ——— And they may still do it that way, for all I know. But that is becoming less and less likely as time goes by.
Now in TEAM, I know that if I hit a certain level, I am compensated by profit sharing for helping bring more people into the TEAM. Anyone can hit this level, and people below me can hit higher levels than where i am at, and be compensated more for it that me. —— This is all fine and good, but you STILL haven’t quantified the AMOUNT of tool profit. If it was small compared to your Q income, you wouldn’t even have to tell, but if it is large compared to your Q income, you are misleading your downline, UNLESS you tell them how much you make on tools.
Now how is that a scam? The only way I can see your reasoning, is if you were supporting that tools be sold and distributed at cost and no profit. —— You can make as much profit as you would like, just be aware many of us consider you a liar and coward if you don’t get honest about the level of tool profits, there will soon be even more choices for IBO’s to make regarding the source of their tools, the FTC and/or Quixtar may get involved in the process, and the internet is eating you alive for not being forthcoming. Other than that, I don’t see any issues at all.
Now you know that Amway will not sell tools at cost, and will not share profits equally and evenly, yet I openly support them? How do you know all of this? What is your basis for these points? Where have I ever insisted Amway take over tools, how do you know they won’t sell them at cost, how do you know they are unwilling to share profits fairly, how do you know I openly support any of these points?
They will keep the profits in the family, how is that not worse of a scam? How do you know how much they will charge, do you think they have to charge the same amount as your current system? Is there some law I am not aware of? Isn’t this a perfect place for the IBOAI to show some leadership, for a change? You definitely don’t understand something, but if there was ever a scam, I’ve seen it coming from upline tools for decades.
Conan_78 #42,
This site is Grand Central Station compared to the freetheibo and IBOAI blogs. When this (the overall tool scam, not just TEAM) is cleared up, I will build my Amway business. Get a clue.
whatever #43,
A lawyer is capable of abusing both the judicial system and their clients pocketbook, I care about the first, I don’t care about Orrin “Rosie Ruiz” Woodward’s pocketbook, empty it out as far as I’m concerned. Turnabout is fair play.
doublehjooks #44,
You are mistaken, these lawsuits were a TRO to stop quixtar from making IBO’s sign an agreement to follow the Quixtar rules, or be terminated from Quixtar. Many IBO’s didn’t resign. As far as I know, Ron Simmons, the CEO of Legacy, which merged with TEAM recently, as well as other Platinums and above in the north Texas area, did not resign, so there is reason for the lawsuit. Too bad for them it has been removed as a barrier between Quixtar and these IBO’s having to sign the letter or get terminated.
dannie #45,
What state are you in, the state of confusion? If they were with Quixtar, they could have opened a competing one in 6 months. Looks like you got off easy. Did you have a non-compete in the contract when you bought the business from them? If you did, and used a lawyer, they should have been familiar with whether that part of the contract was enforcable.
Can you name examples, becuase my earlier search of the internet shows CA is rather unique in this regard.
No doubt the reason Team went out of Michigan is because the laws ARE more favorable there. I don’t wonder why Q incorporated out of state, I assumed it was a good business decision.
Ros #46,
You are entitled to your opinion, so am I.
LisBette #48,
Read the rules lately? For example, the rule regarding a 6 month non-compete that Orrin “Rosie Ruiz” Woodward asked to be given permission not to follow? Nothing “convoluted”, just the facts, ma’am.
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:04 pm
#56 Eagle Heart: Is Monster pretty good? I’ve never tried it…
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:20 pm
Tex #51,
My comment was not in reference to the “tool scam” (as you call it). I was commenting on the posted blog, which I thought was much more appropriate than hijacking the discussion to address a pet peeve of mine. We already have one expert in that practice here.
> When this whole thing broke out, a
> communication from Q requested that all Team
> Platinum IBOs agree to follow the Q rules and
> forsake Team or risk having their businesses
> terminated.
Sometimes I have to wonder where you’ve been, Tex. This particular email had nothing to do with following Q rules. It threatened to terminate the businesses of any Team Platinum that did not sign a letter stating their promise to completely forsake Team and pledge sole allegiance to Q.
> So, let’s speed up and not be too slow to
> judge, we know enough as it is.
Oh, really? We don’t even know which case is being referred to!
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:21 pm
As Captain Says: # 57
For those upset about the latest Q email:
The heart of the message is this: “All solicitation by IBOs of IBOs who are not personally sponsored to attend meetings and functions where the QUIXTAR business is not promoted and where a competing business is promoted are clear violations of Rule 4.14″
Which boils down to: “Solicitation to attend meetings that promote the competition rather than Q are prohibited.”
Is this is the same letter that LisBette # 48 mentions above?
If so, and if what Captain wrote is what the letter truly states, it appears she misunderstood the meaning of the letter.
It clearly states that “All solicitation….are clear violations of Rule 4.14″
It does not prohibit one from attending the meeting on their own. (Though for the life of me I do not understand why an active Quixtar IBO would).
Misunderstandings are easy to come by, here’s an illustration.
On a lighter side…
A doctor at a local university was trying to demonstrate the damaging effects alcohol had on the body to a group of new freshmen.
He placed two glasses on a table. In one glass he poured plain water, the other, alcohol.
He placed a worm in the glass filled with water. As expected, the worm simply crawled out over the top of the glass.
He then took the worm and placed it in the glass filled with alcohol, the worm instantly began to disintegrate and sink to the bottom of the glass of alcohol.
The doctor said, “As you can see, water causes no harm to the worm, but the alcohol totally destroys it. What do you deduce from this little demonstration?” (Feeling confident his point was well taken).
A student in the back of the room said, “Well, it looks to me that if I drink alcohol I’m sure not going to have any worms!”
Sometimes, even with our best efforts, they just sometimes miss the point!
Ros
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:24 pm
Not bad, but maybe you should check with Tex, he seems to be the expert on all topics.
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:30 pm
NG #50,
Does that mean you can’t go to church or a boy scouts meeting, or a weight watchers meeting? No, but you can stay at a Holiday Inn Express, and maybe you’ll wake up smart about the A/Q business the next morning.
But seriously, and for the new readers, the meetings you can’t attend are very narrowly focused, for a very specific amount of time. After NG goes to the Holiday Inn Express, he’ll probably know the exact answer to the above statement.
Tex #52,
It wasn’t totally removed, see message #33.
BK #53,
You’re right. Does BK stand for the BK Lounge, aka Burger King?
Ros #54,
It’s already posted, on another thread.
Captain #55,
That’s right, and that’s exactly why the TRO was originally approved, and why it was squashed in Texas yesterday.
Eagle Heart #56,
Does anybody work around here? Sure do. This takes only a few minutes out of my day.
I’m already to popped an XS Energy drink and did some laundry in SA8 (okay, it was my wife, but close enough, still used PV/BV) and dreaming about the day TEAM Blasts off and exits the universe!
Captain #57,
For those excited about the latest Q email:
The heart of the message is this: “TEAM sucks.″
Which boils down to: “TEAM sucks.”
This means two things:
1) TEAM sucks.
2) TEAM really sucks.
Just thought I’d point these things out. Actually, it means you can attend the meetings, but beware of spies, as they will be there to turn in those former IBO’s who notified you of the meeting. Also, keep in mind you can’t join the new scam until you quit your Quixtar business and 6 months pass if you took the initiative to find out about the meeting, and 2 years if you were invited.
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:30 pm
AEM # 15
Thank you for your kind words.
You are most welcome.
Sincerely,
Ros
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:38 pm
DLS Chicago #29
Hey!!! Honestly, I have no idea, but I could find out, so I’m guessing you can too. Just from one source — there have been (in total):
14 Diamonds
10 Founders Diamonds
06 Executive Diamonds
02 Founders Executive Diamonds
02 Double Diamonds
01 Founders Double Diamonds
01 Triple Double Diamonds
02 Founders Crowns
02 Founders Crown Ambassadors
01 40 FAA Credit
01 60 FAA Credit
Another list I founds shows:
50 Diamonds
10 Founders Diamonds
02 Founders Executive Diamonds
01 Crown
I’m not aware of the time frame on these — it is either an annual thing or in less time than that.
I recently had the opportunity to meet with several people who have recently broken Executive Diamond to Triple Diamond, and none of them were involved with the TEAM system. I hope that helps.
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:41 pm
Tex # 33
Your comments regarding AEM and myself were uncalled for, and inappropriate…you should apologize.
And I do not agree that your comments assist your/our cause as you claim, they cause any diplomacy to be discounted and puts everyone at odds with one another, defeating the main purpose of discussion, to find solutions to differences.
… call a spade a spade, as in rude behavior?
Regards,
Ros
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:44 pm
The only way to beat Tex is to stop blogging. Especially don’t ask him a question or respond directly to anything he writes. (I’m violating my advice, but I promise it’s the last time.) This is my rallying cry.
I intend to build a Quixtar business, and I don’t think the TEAM fiasco is going to slow things down that much. I see lots of evidence of success happening right now. Some of the pro-TEAM people have valid points. Others are trying to scare people with misinformation. Tex is in a league of own.
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:45 pm
tex, still waiting on your reply to my tool questions in #41
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:48 pm
Thanks NL, I was really looking for the 3 year time frame to use as reference, but it is interesting none the less. I wonder why the two lists are so different? What are the sources if you don’t mind me asking?
I tried looking them up on the Quixtar site but it seems they only show the same ones. It would be great if they would showcase the new achieved levels annually.
Thanks again!
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:49 pm
It seems by the letter of the letter that if my boy scout troup were going to sell christmas candles (or whatever), that it would be against Q/A rules to attend a boyscout meeting!!? I’m getting soo confused! Where do you draw the line anymore?
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:52 pm
Oh man I have a great one un-related although important fo rnew IBOs to know I figured I would give this whole AMWAY name a try in like 10 contacts and I did it very regular to what a normal business builder would do and i seroulsy got laghed at twice hung-up on and the rest said yah I herd about that a while ago i don’t do those pyrmid things so GOOD LUCK with that new IBOs i will try my luck elsewhere
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:55 pm
Aron Gannon Says: # 66
…I intend to build a Quixtar business, and I don’t think the TEAM fiasco is going to slow things down that much. I see lots of evidence of success happening right now. Some of the pro-TEAM people have valid points. Others are trying to scare people with misinformation. Tex is in a league of own.
I agree!
Less distraction and more action!
Here’s to your success! Stay focused!
Ros
October 3rd, 2007 at 5:58 pm
Ros #65,
An apology to you from the moderator’s desk. We attempted to edit out the offending line before posting — and, obviously, mucked it up. We have gone in and back-edited to remove that section of the comment.
This may be a good time to remind all that, though we believe robust debate is a wonderful thing, we do reserve the right to edit for length or, when we think it necessary, content – particularly too-strong language and lines of debate that take us far afield from original topics.
October 3rd, 2007 at 6:08 pm
….to attend meetings and functions where the QUIXTAR business is not promoted and where a competing business is promoted are clear violations…
There is no competing business so I think all functions are cool to attend.
October 3rd, 2007 at 6:12 pm
Thank you Ros and thank you again moderator(s).
Thank you Captain for your clear simplification of the newest email. It sounds very threatening so that’s why people are upset.
To be honest, I think Q/Amway are frightening away the IBOs that are thinking of staying. I know some who left after the last one just because of the threatening tone of it.
October 3rd, 2007 at 6:15 pm
Tex #62,
Regarding your reply to my #55: we still don’t know if the September 4th Texas TRO is what’s being referred to here.
Regarding your reply to my #57: I can’t help but stand in awe of nature’s widely varied creative abilities. You’re an amazing example, my friend.
October 3rd, 2007 at 7:24 pm
#68 DLSChicago . . . actually - I just got that off the Quixtar site. I know now that usually that info is quarterly, but I’m not sure about online. You’d likely get more accurate numbers by just calling Quixtar.
I think it is sooo exciting that more people seem to be hitting the higher pin levels (above Diamond)!!! And with the new bonus incentives, people in my organization are thrilled!!! It also seems more people in my generation are starting to take advantage of this business opportunity and are succeeding, so I’m looking forward to what this next year could bring!!!
October 3rd, 2007 at 8:35 pm
Was the case dismissed or refered to a different court?
October 3rd, 2007 at 8:55 pm
#49 Girlpower,
you said…”In a sense, yes, you do sign your own paycheck. ……………… And if you didn’t work you’d have no money.”
Interesting take. And very much what I believed until Aug 9th. Assuming you build it big, what are you going to do when the corporation raises pricing on products again? nothing.
What are you going to do when the corporation decides the bonuses are too high? nothing.
Until Aug 9th I thought I had a IBOAI board I could count on to balance those possibilities.
Go ahead and slam my comments but they hold true. Any future IBO or ABO or whatever they call them is at risk and must defer without question to the corporation’s whims. No voice heard. Any of you in on the “Amway” name change meetings? me either. What if they decided to name it “Knuckleheads are us.” I guess you’d be a KBO. Post after post the corporation continues to blow my mind at the attitude towards successful business builders. Whom I’ve personally heard edify and congratulate for accomplishments on stage. I’ve been in front of Doug DeVoss giving praise to business builders that are now “bad guys”. I sit here reading this stuff and can only take so much.
Tex, you especially, you ask freely what pin levels people are as soon as they try and defend something you disagree with. What pin level are you? I’m sure it’s huge. If your blogging reflects your personality at all, I’m sure really huge.
Easy for everyone to flap lip about how TEAM is wrong and blah blah blah, this should be a sign of things to come. Can u not see how the corporation is handling this? I suppose as long as it’s mean spirited you’re happy about it. I bet you wouldn’t be if you were the target. I’m also not hiding behind some fake screen name. My name is Brad Obert, I’m still an IBO. I get checks. My business produces more income than it costs to operate and promote. Even with “system”. I credit my business to my investment into the “system” and my efforts.
I tried building this on my own for around 4 years and had zero success. So you may flap your lips, but I’m not sure what about. I believe systems work, and evidently so do most successful companies out there including AmQuix. Their operations use systems. Maybe you nay sayers should develop systems, systems to duplicate your negative attitude and happiness at other’s failures. I’m still waiting for someone to give me the name of 1 diamond who did it without the “tools”. Wierd how we can argue argue and argue but not respond to an obviously reasonable request.
I own a real estate company, requires yearly training, costs several hundred dollars per employee. My share of those education profits? zero
I also own a construction company, requires expensive yearly continued education, sometimes requires a plane ticket for the whole group. My share of those profits? zero
Can’t wait to read the replies.
October 3rd, 2007 at 8:59 pm
Captain #60,
I don’t recall the terms “promise to completely forsake Team” or “pledge sole allegiance to Q” in the letter. Can you point them out to me, or are we getting just a wee bit theatrical? You don’t think “pledging sole allegiance to Q” includes following the rules? By the way, Captain, your row boat is sinking. You know the one, the S.S. Orrin?
Eagle Heart #62,
Dont’ worry, he already ran it past me.
Ros #64/6,
Gag. Not a good idea to read those posts right after eating dinner.
Aron #67,
There is no way to beat me, I represent the truth. Stop blogging and I get in the last word, fine with me. You don’t have to ask me anything or respond to any of my posts, I’ll just barge into any conversation on my own, no problem. You can cry to your mama, for all I care.
I intend to build a Quixtar business, and I think the TEAM fiasco is going to speed up the end of the overall tool scam. I see lots of evidence of success happening right now. Some of the pro-TEAM people have valid points, they just pale in comparison to the TEAM problems. Others are trying to scare people with misinformation. I’m in a league of own, because I stick to the facts.
matthew #68,
Are you holding your breath? My response has been submitted earlier, it’s with the Moderator right now. Cool your jets.
tagteam #70,
Are you serious?
Fuddman #71,
We didn’t use the Amway word on a contact when it was Amway before, and we didn’t use the Quixtar word at the point of a contact, either. I know you’re fishing, but we’re not biting. Go cast your bait somewhere else.
Moderator #73,
Nobody was surprised more than me, I sent in a message (#52) when you still had the “on the edge” sentence in moderation, and agreed it could be regarded as going over the edge. Since “mucked it up” is obviously an acceptable term on this blog, you will probably see it used by yours truly, assuming you don’t have copyright claims, as the uplines’ tapes and CD’s have for much less noteworthy information. But then, you don’t make a profit on your information, at least not directly.
Reminder noted. Occasionally it is useful to test where the edge of the envelope is, as there are no such restraints on other sites.
October 3rd, 2007 at 9:09 pm
DLSChicago #74,
Go for it.
DLSChicago #75,
Be afraid. Be very afraid. http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/be%20afraid,%20be%20very%20afraid.html Oops, “amazed” caught me again, it’s a European (UK) link. Drats. I mucked it up again.
Captain #76,
Regarding my reply to your #55: we still don’t know if the September 4th Texas TRO is what’s being referred to here? I’m not losing any sleep over it. A loss for TEAM is a loss for TEAM.
Regarding my reply to your #57: I can’t help but stand in awe of nature’s widely varied creative abilities. You’re an amazing example, my friend. ———- Thank you, I get that feedback quite often.
October 3rd, 2007 at 9:09 pm
Tex,
I’m starting to figure it out. While scrolling through these comments, I’ve noticed you are on here ALL THE TIME! Let me guess, you’re 19 years old, live in the basement of your mother’s house and work midnights at a gas station. Its very easy to sit on the sidelines and be a critic. Get in the game of life and go out in live it instead of embarrassing yourself on here. If you believe in Amway so much, why aren’t you out promoting it?
October 3rd, 2007 at 9:13 pm
Thank you DLSChicago (# 74) for your comments and the thoughtful way you word them!
I can understand how some may feel the strong wording of the recent memos from Quixtar could be considered “frightening” or perhaps they misunderstand what they are say.
However, I do not believe Quixtar is trying to frighten anyone, on the contrary, I feel they did an excellent job in clarifying and ensuring everyone understands the rules. Of course, if everyone were to play by the rules in the first place, there would be no need for the memos.
Rather then being frightened or confused, if anyone has any questions regarding the memos or any other issues, I would recommend they contact Quixtar and ask to speak with their sales coordinator, they are very helpful and friendly and have answered my questions to my satisfaction.
Best regards!
Ros
October 3rd, 2007 at 9:30 pm
Na not fishing could care less really thought it was imprtant to let new ppl know about the business and if anyone i get in new i will make sure they know of the changes unlike the company did for many of us it just will not work at all for someone to even mention amay trust me!!
October 3rd, 2007 at 9:33 pm
#66 Ros
Good attitude.
#82 Blue
Go away, tex has been the most informative blogger since this series of BS started. Personally his/her opinions and views have been well balanced and respectable. You however bring nothing to this blog.
October 3rd, 2007 at 9:34 pm
Whoops that #66 should have been #72
October 3rd, 2007 at 10:02 pm
Tex,#58
thanks for your response to my question. While i have a strong disregard for the way that you treat others on this blog, i always appreciate honest opinions including yours, so thanks.
now i see where you are coming from on the tool scam, and while we don’t see eye to eye on the issue, that’s okay. The only thing that I question is this…
if it is bad to make more off system than the actual Q business, than what would happen if the system was the only product? what if there was no Q, and the product WAS the system? Nothing else, no sa8 or loc, or circuit city. Rather, the system is aimed at creating leaders in our everyday community that can pull together and fight moral and ethical issues as did the “greats” in our past history. is this still a tool scam?
the only reason why i bring this up, is I once heard(and never confirmed(and you might hit me with some hear-say mumbo jumbo))of another MLM whose focus it was to motivate people to accomplish their dreams and goals. They didn’t provide a “vehicle” per se, but just motivated. They utilized audios and meetings and conventions, similar to the systems on LOA’s for Q. People are paid off the audios and books. Is this MLM as a whole a scam? Just curious on your thoughts for that.
By the way, I am not referencing TEAM in no way for this example.
(also, you, in a previous post did mention your support of the amway tools. i dont have an exact quote, and don’t wish to go through your expansive amount of postings…but you said something to the fact that ‘the amway tools, or tools from amway are the only way that bsm’s can work’. Just so you know that I am not throwing out any unsubstantiated facts about what you say.
October 3rd, 2007 at 10:20 pm
Regarding my earlier comments # 83
Upon rereading the 2 memos, see (Message(s) forwarded), I want to retract my earlier comments that I could understand how they could be considered “frightening” or perhaps someone might misunderstand what they are saying.
I in fact find them very supportive and they do not contain any legalize, nor cause any alarm, and are in fact very straightforward. The tone is friendly and supportive towards the IBO.
If I had received either letter, I would feel Quixtar is reaching out to me to support and offer reassurance.
See, I was able to reconsider my original views.
Ros
October 3rd, 2007 at 10:21 pm
Thank you Blue #82, I just scrolled thru and read some of his BS and I think he is probably 47 and living in his mothers basement and most likely living off of her social security. He can’t possibly have a job or build a business with all the blog time he puts in. He’s like a backseat driver who never got a license. Get off TEX!! Give these people a break from your nonsense.
October 4th, 2007 at 12:43 am
Tex,
I left a post for you at the IBOAI Blog under “IBOAI Contract Renewed”. When you get some time I’d be interested in your answer.
This post is on the proceedings in Texas but I have a couple of questions for you.
1) Do you believe there are any good lines of sponsorship?
2) Do you believe there are any good tool and support systems out there?
3) Do you believe there are any good IBOAI board members?
4) Have you actually yourself experienced some of the abuses in this business you describe?
The reason I’m asking is I feel like I’m in a great LOS. I feel like our support system is a bargain for all the help and support I get. I have met several people who have served on the board in my LOS and they seem well intentioned and people of character who are very transparent. I don’t see the abuses that so many people talk about. I also realize that my LOS is a lot different than what the team guys were doing. I have never had a question, even a hard one, where I did not get an honest answer.
I have done other things in ny life and been involved in traditional business as an employee and an owner. The people I have met in this business are fantastic and eager to help even when there is nothing in it for them other than helping me succeed; which helps there pv too. Compared to the people I’ve been affiliated with on the outside and the people inside this business; this business wins hands down.
I understand there have been abuses in the past but I sure don’t see it from where I am at. I am by nature an optimistic happy person, but I am not stupid or naive.
I admire your tireless effort on these blogs and your attention to detail is admirable. I don’t think our glass is totally full yet, but I believe it is a long way from empty.
October 4th, 2007 at 1:55 am
Ros,
I can’t thank you enough for helping to allow open opinions to exist on this blog. It is really refreshing in these tense times.
That said, I have to say that Quixtar may not be trying to frighten IBOs but from my experience they are, especially the newbies. They are so afraid of network marketing now they can’t wait to get out. They may not continue to build their leadership skills through TEAM either but we’ll see.
Regarding your comment about following the rules, I’d like to say that I was taught to follow the Q/Amway rules by my upline and never heard otherwise on cds or at seminars. That’s what makes this whole thing so confusing to me and many others on TEAM. When Q/Amway accuses my organization of doing something I KNOW I am not doing personally, it is natural to begin to not trust Q/Amway. They might not have meant to do this but it was definitely done. Q/Amway needs to acknowledge that most of the TEAM members were not breaking the rules. The fact that Q flat out accused us of doing this is why TEAM members are leaving. They feel betrayed. Can you blame them?
Lastly, if there is no competing mlm, why would the threatening emails be necessary? I guess if one is eventually revealed or if we decide to join Herbalife or Mary Kay, it is good to know the rules we are currently bound by. I can acknowledge that Q/Amway would want to get that out there.
I have yet to see a competing mlm so until we hear of one, we are free to attend any TEAM, Steven Covey or Donald Trump function right?
October 4th, 2007 at 2:19 am
Matthew #87:
You’ll need to run your hypothetical (not TEAM) MLM past the legal requirements of the country where you live in. In the UK they are severely restrictive, in the US not so much.
The first, strongest requirement is that people need to be rewarded based on product sales for consumption. (I.e. no stock hoarding.) And not for bringing in new people into the business per se.
I joined Amway specifically for the training system, but I found very quickly (month or two) that the training system is useless if you don’t apply it.
So if you have a system where you run around from meeting to meeting to be motivated and inspired, and that is all it is, I would much rather go to church on Sundays, and attend a few church community projects.
I might be wrong, but I don’t see much of a future for a motivation MLM - Motivation is usually very individual driven - John Maxwell, et al comes to mind. But is extremely difficult to duplicate, which is vital in a MLM business.
October 4th, 2007 at 5:40 am
For all you Tex Fans, On qblog radio, You can get your fill of the most giberish you can get in 48 minutes: http://www.qblogradio.com/?p=81
Ros #88
> in fact find them very supportive and they do > not contain any legalize, nor cause any > alarm, and are in fact very straightforward. > The tone is friendly and supportive towards > the IBO.
Only they lied! Team has not held any open meeting for almost a month!
> Some of these are local Open meetings at > which IBOs openly encourage other IBOs to > leave Quixtar.
If you call Resorting to innuendos and insinuations of the spaghetti as examples of a professional corporation Communique they have a new kool-aid drink for you.
Alf (Surprise) I am Moving on with Team
October 4th, 2007 at 8:52 am
#36 Captain,
You can argue that the Calif. lawsuit should or should not have been filed. Q/A was ignoring the board, and most IBOs, most importantly violating the main reason and principle on which the company was founded and the Calif. lawsuit was several IBOs method of trying to wake Q/A up. It obviously didn’t work. Q/A, mostly Alticor has and is acting like a bully, IMHO.
You are correct, all the lawsuits filed to protect the businesses of IBOs who were being threated by Q/A if they had any other relationship with team, was and is justifiable.
I have not seen any proof that these IBOs have lost any of these cases. Q/A was in violation of their own rules and principles for this move. These last emails, based on current Team, are in violation of the MI clarification - if they mentioned Team or if they are enforced. They are scare tactics. The judge specifically said if Team didn’t violate 1-3, that Q/A had to stay out of Team’s business. Q/A has agreed to that ruling. That alone should stop Q/A from terminating any IBO without “due process” as outlined in the rules.
That said, how can Team be a competing business, unless it is the education system. They have no products. The education system they have is currently generic. Team is playing by the currently outlined rules. Q/A is not.
I am going to a seminar tomorrow for continuing education for my other non-competing business to remain licensed. They can not legally do anything about that. Any move by Q/A in my other business would be in violation of countless laws.
The only thing Team’s move could do, is stop in the future of me being able to write-off any meetings or support materials for my Q/A business. Anything purchased prior to 8/9 is still on the table, after that, I am not sure.
October 4th, 2007 at 10:45 am
Texas suits,
See
http://media.alticorblogs.com/2007/08/31/texas/
#5.
I remembered some court cases that stopped Q/A from terminating IBOs without “due process”.
So Tex’s comment that this closed Ron S or others TRO doesn’t make sense. I have not seen with case was closed and I would have thought 2 days would be enough time to scan and post the filings. Anyone seen them? Obviously if it was in Q/A interest to post the suit, it would be here.
They had Randy and Don’s filings up within hours.
October 4th, 2007 at 11:23 am
Blue #82,
You’re starting to figure it out? You’re basically wrong on every count. Perhaps we should play “Blue’s Clues”.
While scrolling through these comments, you’ve noticed I am on here ALL THE TIME? Sorry, I have many other things I do, try again.
Let you guess, I’m 19 years old, live in the basement of my mother’s house and work midnights at a gas station? Wrong, Wrong, and Wrong, Mr. Blue’s Clues. Perhaps we should take a commercial break and put our “thinking cap” on and try again.
It’s very easy to sit on the sidelines and be a critic? I’m not on the sidelines, Mr. Blue’s Clues. That commercial break didn’t help you at all, Mr. Blue’s Clues. I suggest a new show name, Mr. Blue is Clueless.
Get in the game of life and go out in live it instead of embarrassing myself on here? Do you have ANYTHING constructive to say? Do you have even a single clue about the tool scam, Mr. Blueclueless?
If I believe in Amway so much, why aren’t I out promoting it? I am promoting it, I am promoting cleaning up the scam so we can run an honest, ethical, and moral business that will survive over the long term. I suggest you read up on what is happening in the UK, and come back tomorrow for the same show, which repeats itself for a whole week, so you can catch on.
Ros #83,
You forgot “hugs and kisses”.
fuddman #84,
Have you taken a breath yet? That was one long sentence.
say no to TEAM #85,
On the contrary, Blue is a great example of how confused and misled people are. He is welcome to come back.
matthew #87,
Rich DeVos invited the tool scammers to do just that in 1983. Have you listened to or read the “Directly Speaking” recordings?
Whether you have a legitimate business by selling only leadership, motivation, etc. depends on a couple of things:
1. Do you preach you are financially successful because of the principles you applied, or because of the training you sell?
2. Do you claim to be “business partners” or “teammates” with the people you charge, or do you teach them you are running a leadership/motivational business, and your principles will help them?
Regarding Amway tools, I may have been a little sloppy when turning others’ statements around on them. I believe the tools could come from the LOS, but they may want to partner with Amway to produce the tools, as TIF did for a short time, because the lower prices will result in less profit, and it may not provide enough incentive for the IBO’s to keep producing the tools themselves. Amway can also do a better job of ensuring the tools have acceptable information in them with this arrangement.
October 4th, 2007 at 11:50 am
n2win #89,
Read my response to Blue. Same applies to you.
pvbvguy #90,
I’ve been kicked off the the IBOAI Blog, you’ll have to repeat your question here. That should tell you a lot about the IBOAI Blog, they operate just like the freetheibo site, they only want THEIR viewpoints posted, unlike this site.
1) Do I believe there are any good lines of sponsorship? Yes.
2) Do I believe there are any good tool and support systems out there? Yes.
3) Do I believe there are any good IBOAI board members? No.
4) Have you actually yourself experienced some of the abuses in this business you describe? Yes.
1. Have you asked them how much the typical Platinum and above makes from the tools?
2. If not, would you ask them?
3. If you did ask, what did they say?
Alf #93,
Thanks for the plug.
Only they lied, Team has not held any open meeting for almost a month? How does Q know they haven’t held Open meetings? They are still holding seminars, however.
“Some of these are local Open meetings at which IBOs openly encourage other IBOs to leave Quixtar. If you call Resorting to innuendos and insinuations of the spaghetti as examples of a professional corporation Communique they have a new kool-aid drink for you.” What does encouraging other IBO’s to leave Quixtar have to do with “innuendos and insinuations”? You are severely confused. You’ll fit right in with the rest of the TEAM members, Alf. Go TEAM. Far, far away!
Utah #94,
Now you’re considered a bully when you enforce the rules?
I haven’t seen any evidence that TEAM is dead yet, either. But I was standing half-way down the cliff they jumped from and saw them going by, and there’s no bungy cord, parachute, or soft landing below. Now all we’re doing is waiting to see and hear the “splat”.
Utah #95,
Perhaps Ron Simmons or someone else with TEAM could clarify. I think it may be taking Q some time to post the documents because they are still in the middle of other lawsuits and don’t want to shoot themselves in the foot, like TEAM has already done several times.
October 4th, 2007 at 11:56 am
Utah #94
I was not saying anything, one way or the other, about the California case - just talking about the Texas TRO. I agree with everything else you’ve said.
Neither have I seen any proof that IBOs have lost any of their cases. However, I have seen proof that several of them have won. Remember when a “record of 12-3″ was news? The 12 wins were mainly TROs for individual IBOs seeking to prevent Q from continuing their campaign of intimidation. And, despite A/Q/A spin, these suits were filed in different states, not because Team was “legal spamming,” but because these IBOs lived in different states.
October 4th, 2007 at 12:09 pm
Tex #97
“I’ve been kicked off the the IBOAI Blog, you’ll have to repeat your question here. That should tell you a lot about the IBOAI Blog, they operate just like the freetheibo site, they only want THEIR viewpoints posted, unlike this site.”
I know this is pointless to ask, because I already know the answer, but: have you ever considered that it is not your viewpoints, but your rude and abusive manner, that gets you treated like this?
What goes around, comes around, my man.
October 4th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
Tex: Your response to NL is fine; length on response to Brad O. tips the scale. Mind condensing?
Potshots are a’plenty, but not always necessary. This goes for everybody.
The Ruiz thing is a tad stale. Our two bits.
As you were…
October 4th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
NL #77,
The problem with the apparent growth is as one group grows, others shrink, and the overall size is stagnant. You can have some short term success, but then it goes away.
When the tool scam is taken care of, as it has been in the UK, and the lesser need of additional price reductions are implemented, we will have a decent business.
At that point, your giddiness and excitement will have a foundation it can rest upon.
Brad Obert #79 (part 1 of 2),
The sky is falling, the sky is falling!
What are you going to do when the corporation raises pricing on products again? Do you really think in this day and age, with the internet and blogs, the corp can raise prices and we would do “nothing”? Get a grip, Brad Obert.
What are you going to do when the corporation decides the bonuses are too high? See above and get a clue, Brad Obert.
Until Aug 9th you thought you had a IBOAI board you could count on to balance those possibilities? They have been proven to be liars and cowards, why would you believe that, Brad Obert?
Go ahead and slam your comments but they hold true? Not even close, Brad Obert.
Any future IBO or ABO or whatever they call them is at risk and must defer without question to the corporation’s whims? See above, Brad Obert.
No voice heard? Your voice is here, Brad Obert. Wake up and smell the coffee, Brad Obert.
Any of you in on the “Amway” name change meetings? No, they didn’t ask me about the name change to Quixtar, either, Brad Obert.
What if they decided to name it “Knuckleheads are us.”? You guess you’d be a KBO? Are you trying to have a serious discussion, Brad Obert?
Post after post the corporation continues to blow your mind at the attitude towards successful business builders? That’s because their “success” is built upon the tool scam, Brad Obert. They’re not really successful at all, Brad Obert.
Whom you’ve personally heard edify and congratulate for accomplishments on stage? Me too, Brad Obert, but they were running a scam. Many people in history were “worshipped” until it was found they ran a scam, Brad Obert.
You’ve been in front of Doug DeVos giving praise to business builders that are now “bad guys”? Me too, Brad Obert. What’s your point, Brad Obert?
You sit here reading this stuff and can only take so much? How about the millions of Distributors/IBO’s that have been ripped off for several decades for hundreds of millions to billions of dollars, Brad Obert? How about them, Brad Obert?
Tex, me especially, I ask freely what pin levels people are as soon as they try and defend something I disagree with? Isn’t it an honor to tell which pin you have, Brad Obert? Aren’t these people proud of their tool scam income, Brad Obert? Don’t they want to brag about their tool scam “success”, Brad Obert? How about you, Brad Obert?
What pin level am I? It’s none of your business, because I don’t participate in the tool scam, Brad Obert.
You’re sure it’s huge? Everything is relative, Brad Obert.
If my blogging reflects my personality at all, you’re sure really huge? See above, Brad Obert.
Easy for everyone to flap lip about how TEAM is wrong and blah blah blah, this should be a sign of things to come? What “sign” are you talking about, Brad Obert?
Can u not see how the corporation is handling this? Sure can, and I am very happy with how this is moving along, Brad Obert.
You suppose as long as it’s mean spirited I’m happy about it? It will be mean spirited until the scammers and their supporters are gone, Brad Obert.
You bet I wouldn’t be if I were the target? I don’t scam people on tools, Brad Obert.
You’re also not hiding behind some fake screen name? Good for you, Brad Obert. That’s your choice, Brad Obert.
Your name is Brad Obert, you’re still an IBO. Really, I didn’t know that, Brad Obert.
You get checks? Me too, Brad Obert.
Your business produces more income than it costs to operate and promote? What is your PV volume, structure, and net income, Brad Obert? How many of your IBO’s can make the same statement, Brad Obert?
October 4th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
Brad Obert #79, (part 2 of 2)
Even with “system”? You make it sound like it was despite the system, not because of it, Brad Obert.
You credit your business to your investment into the “system” and your efforts? The real question is, what would your business be making in net profit, and those of your group, if the main goal of the upline was to make Q profit, not tool profit, Brad Obert?
You tried building this on your own for around 4 years and had zero success? Why are there only 2 choices, full tool scam or no tools, Brad Obert?
So I may flap your lips, but you’re not sure what about? I am, Brad Obert.
You believe systems work, and evidently so do most successful companies out there including AmQuix? So do I, but can’t you admit there are good systems and bad ones, Brad Obert?
Their operations use systems? Of course they do, Brad Obert.
Maybe us nay sayers should develop systems, systems to duplicate our negative attitude and happiness at other’s failures? I have developed my own system, but if the overall problem isn’t fixed, my system will not survive, because A/Q will not survive, Brad Obert.
You’re still waiting for someone to give you the name of 1 diamond who did it without the “tools”? It won’t come from me, see above good and bad system answer, Brad Obert.
Wierd how we can argue argue and argue but not respond to an obviously reasonable request? You can say that again, Brad Obert.
You own a real estate company, requires yearly training, costs several hundred dollars per employee. Your share of those education profits? zero? In other words, you aren’t interested in training your employees to make money on the education, but on what they learn so you can buy/sell real estate better, Brad Obert. Do you tell others you are a successful real estate guy, when you are really making most of your bucks on training your employees, Brad Obert. No. That is NOT what the upline does, as they promote Q and claim they are successful at Q, but they are really successful from their tool scam system, Brad Obert.
You also own a construction company, requires expensive yearly continued education, sometimes requires a plane ticket for the whole group? Same as above, Brad Obert.
Your share of those profits? zero? See above, Brad Obert.
Can’t wait to read the replies? There’s mine, Brad Obert.
You may have noticed I said your name quite a few times. That was to get you over yourself. You have “seen your name in lights”, and “had your 15 minutes of fame” now, so let’s get to the facts instead of just you. It isn’t about you or me, it’s about the overall tool scam. You just proved, by your real estate and construction company examples, how the upline that claims us as their “teammates” and “business partners”, is neither. Answer my questions honestly and you may start to “get it”.
October 4th, 2007 at 12:54 pm
Captain #100,
If you want to discuss the issues in a civilized manner, I am more than willing to do so. Your turn.
Admin #101,
Although Rosie Ruiz is a stroke of brilliance (if I may so myself, with every fiber of humility in my being), I understand how it is getting stale to the returning readers.
However, the new readers (and “old” readers who still haven’t figured it out, even though it is a quick google search away) should understand Rosie entered the Boston Marathon a few years ago and pretended to win the race. For a few minutes, she was congratulated, until it was found she cheated by entering the race near the finish line. The parallels to how Orrin entered the A/Q “race” long after it was started and appeared to be a success until it was found he was cheating are remarkable.
However, in the interest of entertainment value and not wanting to be considered “stale”, I will find another analogy, and it won’t be the “H” person, either.
I would be as “happy as a clam” if you wanted to tighten up the “potshots”. I would prefer to discuss the issues, but have found through experience the only way to survive in the blog world is to fight fire with fire.
As you were….
October 4th, 2007 at 2:57 pm
TEX:
I, as well as many others here I’m sure, are curious about a couple things:
1. Just what have you done in your life that qualifies you to speak with such (self righteous) authority on so many aspects of business?
2. Have you ever built a successful business of any kind?
October 4th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
FRED HARTEIS STATEMENT
Interesting statement of clarification by Fred Harteis on the IBOAI Blog, but no one seems to be commenting on it over there…
October 4th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
Another win?????? It makes you think how perception is only as good as the heart behind it. It is a sad day when a corporation continues to skew facts trying to deceive the public. Enron, Worldcom, Amway????
October 4th, 2007 at 4:52 pm
Hey Tex,
I am an IBO, I love AMWAY and I am NOT in TEAM nor am I even in USA.
I did not care to comment so far, until your repetitive insults and jarring attacks on TEAM kept interrupting my flow of thoughts as I am reading all the others’ comments.
Can you please speak with more sympathy for all my fellow (ex-)IBOs in TEAM who feel that their independence business ownership have been taken away from them and are fighting for their livelihood?
Would YOU like to be the one to be terminated after achieving Founders Diamond and losing year-end bonuses just 1-2 months before September?
Speaking of which, why “terminate” INDEPENDENT BUSINESS OWNERS? Can the business I own “terminate” me? That is the question people are asking me now.
Thanks.
October 4th, 2007 at 6:51 pm
Tex #97
Your welcome for the plug, Maybe you should not have done this on 8/13/06 FRIDAY THE 13TH. It appears you not only were kicked off there blog, but you were also the last podcast they did, You must be good luck! Now I thought you were Tex? are you also Ros? Just wondering since you seemed it was up to you to respond to me on there behalf. But since You asked “How does Q know they haven’t held Open meetings?” I ask then “How does Q Then say we are openly encouraging other IBOs to leave Quixtar?” There insinuation is that we are! Once again They LIED.
Team is a Leadership Development Service Provider (LDSP) designed to help individuals learn leadership principles. Any meetings and Our seminars and Majors are for our Business not for Q. This is not a MLM or a competing business with Q period.
If you call Resorting to innuendos and insinuations of the spaghetti as examples of a professional corporation Communique they have a new kool-aid drink for you.
” What does encouraging other IBO’s to leave Quixtar have to do with “innuendos and insinuations”? You are severely confused.”
If you were minding your own business you would not be confused! I was refering to Ros’s post “in fact find them very supportive and they do not contain any legalize, nor cause any alarm, and are in fact very straightforward. The tone is friendly and supportive towards the IBO.”
I was stating that in the two e-mail’s and the spaghetti post, If you call Resorting to innuendos and insinuations that Team is somehow doing illeagle and unethical behavior, Is not examples of a professional corporation Communique. Now if you do, I think you are already drinking the kool-aid.
“You’ll fit right in with the rest of the TEAM members, Alf.” Well thank you Tex I think so!
“Go TEAM. Far, far away!” Believe me Tex we are tring very hard to do just that!
Alf Moving on with Team
October 4th, 2007 at 7:46 pm
rdknyvr, What is there to say? Harteis has made it clear he isn’t and never was party to any of Team’s litigation or efforts. He’s gone, Victor was never there despite attempted rumor generation and Wilson and Haugon have headed for the hills. Looks to me like the rock solid front is crumbling.
Aen, I can’t believe I am siding with the serial blogger, Tex. While agreeing that he is jarring and insulting how can there be any sympathy? Team met with Quixtar and when they didn’t hear what they wanted they handed Quixtar and prepared lawsuit that was filed next day in CA in violation of their contract. Quixtar and everyone of us involved with Quixtar were accused of conducting an illegal and unethical business which was totally unnecessary to achieve their goals. An immediate and obviously preplanned internet attack occured, repeating the allegations in the lawsuit.
Symapathy? I have only emnity. The plaitiffs are still Independant Business Owners. The only difference is they no longer powered by Quixtar” because their contract was terminated. That is as it should be.
October 4th, 2007 at 8:32 pm
hitting too close to home, eh? Wondered if my last post would see “the light of day” - thanks for not dsappointing.
October 4th, 2007 at 9:28 pm
G #107,
Think we know the post you are referring to. Care to find an alternative way to express some of the alimentary references and resubmit? Thanks.
October 4th, 2007 at 9:51 pm
Former Ohio IBO #105,
1. I prefer the term “righteous indignation”, and I was taught by my Mother to be honest. That’s what gives me the authority to speak with authority, what did your Mother teach YOU?
2. How does whether I have built a business change the facts? Does building a business give me a “pass” on telling the truth about tool profits? That makes about as much difference as whether I have flown in a balloon.
rdknyvr #106,
I would have asked a question if I wasn’t “banned” from that biased site, guess which question I would have asked?
It looks to me as if Fred’s business is falling apart. Serves him right if he doesn’t fess up on how much tool profit he makes.
Quixkicked #107,
What would you call dismissing the lawsuit, another part of Orrin’s “strategy for success”?
Aen™ #108,
TEAM deserves “repetitive insults and jarring attacks”, I’m glad my comments have had the effect of “interrupting [your] flow of thoughts”, that is the intent. How about if you comment on the points I make, rather than only complaining about the tone of my comments?
Sympathy? For What? Breaking the rules? Wanting to break more rules on their way out, including keeping the broken rules a secret? Suing Quixtar all over the country for being an illegal pyramid? Which of the above deserves our sympathy? They didn’t have their business taken away, they decided not to agree to comply with the rules? They should have thought things through prior to getting bent out of shape and quitting.
This reflects on the intelligence of these “leaders”. They could have talked with Quixtar until AFTER their Founders Diamond bonuses were paid. I would like to be terminated if I were breaking the rules and had no interest in getting in line. It’s called being fair, and the same rules apply to me as they do to everyone other IBO.
As an IBO, you’re not self-employed. Just as a McDonalds “independent business owner” has to follow the corporate rules, so we. Have you ever read the rules, there are several places where potential termination for rule breakage are discussed. That is what you should tell the people asking these types of questions.
You’re welcome.
October 4th, 2007 at 10:23 pm
Alf #108,
I’m not superstitious, so I never thought about Friday the 13th being a factor. That’s right, I was kicked off that blog twice. I was also kicked off ibofb’s blog twice. I have also been kicked off the freetheibo blog twice, but used a different name to get back on before they figured out how to cancel my IP address. I have also been kicked off the IBOAI blog, was kicked off quixtarinsideout.com and reinstated, but never reposted. No wonder the tool scam has lasted so long, there are so few real men (and women) who will stand up for what is right. I’ll respond to whatever post I want to, it’s called the First Amendment, freedom of speech. If you don’t like it, move to some other country where this right is not guaranteed. I have seen people comment on this blog they know someone who was prospected, and I have inside information this has occurred, but won’t reveal my source, because there are still lawsuits going on. I do note you didn’t answer “How does Q know they haven’t held Open meetings?” How do you know they lied? Do you know every action of every TEAM IBO?
Good luck with that “business”, started by someone who could follow some simple rules, required their tool scam business profits to be kept secret by the profiteers, and sued the company they made millions from, both directly (Quixtar) and especially indirectly (tool scam).
Didn’t you read the very first Alticor message, way before the TEAM fiasco? They clearly stated they would be discussing issues in plain English, not stuffy shirt corporatespeak. Look it up.
I’ll mind whoever’s business I want. You didn’t even answer the question.
If you were trying hard to leave Quixtar, you wouldn’t have started the lawsuit, or be supporting those who did.
October 4th, 2007 at 10:41 pm
Eric S #109,
I believe the lawsuit was filed the SAME day they were booted, August 9th.
I also think what they are doing on the internet could easily be ruled as enticing other IBO’s to join them in their new “venture”, so they may have a much longer wait than they would have if they just quit quietly. But then, there is apparently no limit to Orrin’s ego. TEAM (The Ego Above Mastermind)
October 4th, 2007 at 11:23 pm
Tex -
Cutting to the chase, as you’d say … (earlier submission must be hitting too close to home when Corp Communications to get involved, eh?)
There seems to be a propensity for flexible verbosity in the Compendium that provides enough room to twist whichever way pleases the Emperor’s minions, yet inflexible expectation for the common cerf (scuse me, IBO … nope, ABO) to toe their vascillating, convoluted line with precision is the demand.
I strongly doubt the A/Q employee agreement is so obtuse. Wonder if they are prevented from using their developed skill sets to make a living post employment like the “Hotel California” IBO agreement?
What’s not vague is the ease Corp representatives have in twisting truth when specific questions have been asked. I know personally of two interchanges between my upline Emeralds pointedly asking their Emerald coordinators (pre-association with TEAM) about the official “take” on their Support Systems and standing with Corp. In both instances, they were assured of TEAM’s good standing (in June of this year) and one said to my sponsor “I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised”.
And these are the folks with the higher standards we’re supposed to be able to trust?
Either they don’t communicate well in Ada, or “Corporate Ethics” a la Enron are the rule of the day. Let’s see if we can figure which it is?
If memory serves, I don’t believe it was TIF that left the BSM “partnership” with Corp, was it? I seem to recall comments on the way out such as “looks like we left you in the ocean without a life boat, eh?” and my fav “you don’t have anything in writing”. So much for good faith without a legal document. They would have had a heyday doing biz with simply ethical Rich & Jay - here’s your handshake, boys! (Wait a minnit, they now represent those guys - apparently with their approval).
Some of the BSM shenanigans witnessed over the years causes some to wonder who all actually has ownership stake in the Corp these days.
I know there’s no requirement for private held entities to disclose ownership in normal course of biz. Is it fathomable that some of the higher FAA award recipients were also rewarded with non-voting minority shares to “improve their loyalty” - while leveraging influence through Founder’s Council? Just a thought.
October 5th, 2007 at 12:30 am
G #115,
I’ve found you can say just about anything on this blog, unlike most others, as long as you don’t get too abusive. I’ve had to adjust several of my posts, because I like to stay “on the edge”.
I have long agreed the rules need to be simplified. No argument there.
Whatever rules are in place for employees is not much of an interest to me. The employee handbooks I have been subject to were large, and it is not uncommon to have non-compete rules for employees, depending on the nature of their work. Bottom line, this is a MUCH smaller issue compared to the tool scam, so it isn’t much of an interest to me to begin with. First things first.
Were you there with your Emeralds? The only time I trust my upline any more is when their lips aren’t moving. As I’ve mentioned earlier, the corp is rightly concerned about getting sued if they breach private information, I commented on that earlier or on another thread. Do you know exactly what pointed questions your Emeralds asked, and what the exact answers were?
I have tapes from TIF, purchased off the internet, that were wrapped up in packages that came from Ada, MI. TIF’s problem is they wanted to pay profit to ALL IBO’s, and since there are even less opportunities for retailing tools, this made them an illegal pyramid. They could have gotten similar results by simply reducing tool prices, but apparently were too greedy to do the right thing.
I think it’s more a culture of misplaced trust than it is ownership stakes, but I could be wrong. (Did I say that?)
October 5th, 2007 at 2:11 am
Here is the original post I put on the IBOAI blog for you. Sorry to hear you have been booted. Let me know what you think. I will answer your post #97 next)
Tex,
I enjoy reading your stuff on the blogs and no one will ever be able to say you don’t have opinions.
I know you are smart enough to realize there are still people on the IBOAI Board. The moderator has said that the board is going to replace the members who are gone. I don’t believe the board has had a meeting since the blow-up with team, etc.
I have a hunch that the board may have had a tough year. It is obvious that there was some disagreement on the board as to how they viewed this business. I’m sure that the upcoming board will be able to work together in a more agreeable fashion this year. I think we all need to give the board some time. There is a 48 year history between the board and the company. I think that is worth preserving and believe our business is better and will get a lot better because of the IBOAI involvement in the process.
I don’t believe that all the board members are there to try and protect their tool systems. I’m sure every board member knows that the life blood of this business is new people. I really don’t believe that the board members want to ride rough shod over the new folks, fleece them for all their worth, spit them out and go recruit some more new Ibo’s.
I have had a chance to talk to several of the people in my LOS that have served on the board and I certainly don’t see that. I can’t speak for all board members but if I am smart enough to see that an endless cycle of moving people through a system; while you are fleecing them; is zero sum game; then I believe any of the board members would be smart enough to see that too!
I’m also not saying that there hasn’t been abuses in systems in the past. I’ve heard about them from some of the old-timers I’ve talked to in my LOS. In the relatively short time I have been involved and where I am in this business; I haven’t seen it.
I also realize that I am free to participate in system support or not participate. I know the LOS I’m involved in gives great value for the small amount I pay. If someone doesn’t think there is value in their system; don’t participate.
I also know that the new bonuses have accreditation tied to them. If there are still abusers out there, accreditation should take care of it shouldn’t it?
Finally in regard to you wanting your $9.00 refunded…. Don’t you think it’s worth $9.00/year to have some representation? I don’t believe anyone on the board is perfect, but it certainly seems like I will get $9.00 worth of representation from them. I know that personally I spend a lot more money every year on dumb things that
cost a lot more than $9.00. (I just spent $20.00 today to park at a college football game. If I had walked 6-7 blocks, I could have parked for $5.00)
I’m not telling you how to spend your money but I really believe that the $9.00/year that Ibo’s spend is one of the great values in business today. I understand you get frustrated and have many opinions about how this business should be run. I also believe your intelligent. I also believe that deep down you may believe that the representation you get is flawed. You may be right on all counts, but I think we’re still getting a good value for what we are paying.
Maybe I’m NUTS. Let me know what your think; I’m sure you will.
PVBVGUY
P.S. Please don’t stop blogging, I really do enjoy your insights and your posts and I know you are all for making this business work.
[Moderator: Well put, pvbvguy! For everyone’s info, the next Board meeting is in mid-October. We are aware of current “hot topics” to most IBOs — the business transformation, new products & pricing, accreditation, the new QBI — and those are already going to be discussed at the Board meeting, but other recommendations for topics are always welcomed, although we can’t guarantee all will be discussed in the finite time available, particularly since this is also the meeting where additional Board members and 2008 officers are elected. The IBOAI will also have a booth at all four sessions of Achievers and encourage all IBOs to visit the booth and share yourr thoughts, concerns and recommendations with us. ]
Posted by: pvbvguy | September 30, 2007 at 02:37 AM
October 5th, 2007 at 2:32 am
Tex,
I wanted to answer the questions you put to me on your post (#97).
I’m glad to hear that you believe there are good lines of sponsorship and support systems out there. As I have stated, I believe I am in a great organization with a great support system.
I’m sorry to hear that you have been in a system where you have experienced some of the abuses that I have only “heard” about.
I’m also sorry to hear that you don’t feel there are any good board members out there. I have to respectfully disagree with you. I got a chance to hear what a board member in my LOS had to say and I was impressed. He was very complimentary of many (but not all) of the board members on this years board and hinted that there had been some unrest on the board. He repeatedly talked about the great job Jim Janz had done as chair and Jim is not in our LOS. I have a hard time believing that everyone on the board is evil.
In regard to your question, I did ask about the tool profit and not only was a Platinums profit disclosed; I was shown where I could get it in writing. It was not anything like what I’ve read on the web and if anything I was surprised by how “modest” it was. That is one of the things I love about my LOS. The people and the organization are up front about everthing and I believe transparency sells in today’s world.
I am sorry that you have had bad experiences with your system. I know you still believe in this concept; otherwise you wouldn’t be hanging around these blogs.
I myself have been ripped off and deceived in bad business deals in my lifetime. In spite of that, I refuse to stop being optimistic about the future and the hope of a brighter day. This business is a breath of fresh air when compared to traditional business. Please don’t let a few bad apples spoil your future. I don’t know you but with your passion for this business, I really feel you could do great things. I wish you all the best always.
October 5th, 2007 at 10:15 am
Mr. Tex,
I registered in the original Amway bus in 1996, I was offered a choice in 99 to go to Quixtar or stay in Amway. I chose Quixtar. There is no choice being offered today.
I was NOT involved with TEAM for 10 years and several months of that time.
Can you offer your opinion on my questions instead of smart alec replies?
You may not be able to answer these, but could you at least admit I have a point?
Why did the corporation give me the green light on joining with TEAM to continue building our business? This green light was given to us in late Spring ‘07. No comment to me at all about TEAM doing something that I should be worried about. Several of the posts on this blog imply there have been problems with TEAM for years.
Your mean spirited comments at me sound like you think I’m responsible for this mess. I simply wanted to build a big business with results, just as you would I’m sure.
You didn’t answer the question I really care about which is, why are you hiding behind a screen name? I would respect your opinion more if I felt at least you had motivation to tell the truth with consequences vs. rattling off opinion at no risk.
Perhaps I should have consulted you before moving over to TEAM.
October 5th, 2007 at 11:29 am
pvbvguy #118,
You didn’t answer the only question that has practical value, question #3.
“3. If you did ask( How much the typical Platinum and above makes from the tools?), what did they say?”
Did you ensure they included the income they make on ALL tools, including books, CD’s, Opens, Seminars, major functions, web sites, voice mail, etc.? Also, what are your costs for these items? Who is your upline and/or tool system that is being used?
We can return to your flowery descriptions of how wonderful things are with your LOS/LOA, but first we need some basic facts. Saying “I’m sorry” 3 times just doesn’t cut it.
October 5th, 2007 at 12:21 pm
Tex -
Was privvy to the conversations both before the “challenges” and after. My direct sponsor (Emerald) is extremely transparent both about what he learns and how he personally reads it.
I can appreciate an instinct for distrust given your LOS experience, however not everyone “spouts official spin” on either BSM or Q/A
I’m also troubled by the draconian steps mandated on depth building. Heck, I’ve personally sponsored “new friends” that had difficulty remembering my last name for a period - now if you’re “legally” helping someone duplicate business downline and you run across a Sanguine (great with smiles, lousy with names) the Platinum gets ejected? First time I’ve seen punishment meted out for what someone else did INDEPENDENTLY.
What does Corp think their Platinums are - Sales Managers? Must be. What leverage do they actually have over “Independent Business Owners” in the direct fulfillment world of 2007?
If we had “Indentured Business Operatives” Q/A legal envisions to magistrates, could they yank compensation of actual offenders? Thinking that’ll go over like the proverbial t–d in punch bowl.
Me thinks it has much more to do with attempt to intimidate top business developers to become passive participants.
Maybe - just maybe - someONES in Ada shoulda thought through ALL the changes they would need to make AND ACTUALLY HAVE PUT SOME OF THE KEY PIECES IN PLACE before dropping their “A-bomb”.
It’s developing into one of the most classic reversals of “How To Win Friends and Influence People” since Carnegie wrote the book!
October 5th, 2007 at 4:11 pm
G #121,
I agree the ability to suffer for a cross line breaking the rules does not set well with me, either.
Perhaps this can be a major discussion item, now that Orrin has disappeared into the arbitration abyss.
October 5th, 2007 at 4:13 pm
TEX said:
Former Ohio IBO #105,
1. I prefer the term “righteous indignation”, and I was taught by my Mother to be honest. That’s what gives me the authority to speak with authority, what did your Mother teach YOU?
2. How does whether I have built a business change the facts? Does building a business give me a “pass” on telling the truth about tool profits? That makes about as much difference as whether I have flown in a balloon
Typical.
This is really all I need to know about you. Typical non achieving, self righteous critic. I’ll be checking back here periodically just to get a laugh. I’m sure you won’t disappoint, you haven’t yet.
October 5th, 2007 at 4:16 pm
Tex,
I’m still waiting to see if you want to respond to my post (#117) that I dragged over from the IBOAI blog?
In your post (#97) you answered my questions with a yes or no. If that is your only response to them, that is fine. My post (#117) is looking for a little more from you as to why you feel their are no good board members. If you want to respond great, I’d be interested in your thoughts.
I don’t expect you to name specific board members and I’m not looking for names. I’m just interested in why you feel as you do; that is all.
In response to the various questions you asked me in your post (#120), let me comment. I don’t think this format is a good one for you and I to compare notes about our respective lines of sponsorship. I really feel like that that would defeat the purpose of this blog.
One thing I have noticed is that, with the exception of team who kind of has put themselves out front, I don’t see people here comparing notes on their individual lines of sponsorship.
It seems to me that a lot of people plugged into team and one of the complaints against them was they took these people from other lines and assimilated them into their “training”.
I really love my LOS and their relationship with Quixtar and the new Amway (I’m one of those who think this transformation thing will work and be huge positive). I have had all my questions answered as far as costs, profits, etc. I would describe them as modest and well worth what I get from them. Most of all their emphasis is on how to help me build a real balanced Quixtar business and that is all. There is a great amount of transparency and we even talk about the new Amway when we show the plan and sponsoring is up since we started doing it. I “do” believe transparency sells in the market place.
If I start talking about specifics, I don’t think it helps anyone outside my LOS. It’s no different than if Tex had a new whiz bang way of building your business and started touting that on the blogs. It may even be looked at as an inducement to recruit others to your system, etc.
You’ll probably look at that as a cop out and I would say, I’m sorry but that’s the way I feel. I know, from post #120, that you don’t like it when I say I’m sorry but I just don’t think this is an appropriate venue to compare notes. Rest assured that I talk to lots of people at our meetings etc. and I can tell you that the sentiment I’m describing is felt by everyone I talk to. It may be hard for some to believe, but it is true!
October 5th, 2007 at 6:16 pm
Brad #119,
I was an IBO in 1999 as well. There was no meaningful choice offered then, either. Very few folks, probably mostly “oldtimers” stayed with Amway. Most of us knew the fresh name Quixtar would provide, it truly is a different business model, the company wanted to create some excitement, and many other companies have changed their names for much lesser reasons. However, we had the same pay plan, same LOS, same LOA, same rules, same interfaces with the company, etc. You’re fooling only yourself if you consider this a real choice.
Why did the corporation give me the green light on joining with TEAM to continue building our business?
Did the corporation give you or your upline the green light to join TEAM?
If it really was you, did you ask the corporation what were the current or past issues with TEAM? Every tool system has it’s problems, some are more related to the leadership, others to the “worker bees”.
The Quixtar termination letter indicated there were problems with TEAM for years, you don’t need to “imply” anything, it is in black and white.
If you support the tool scam, you deserve “mean spirited” (again, I prefer righteous indignation, even Jesus displayed some of that at the appropriate times, and that is not me trying to elevate myself) treatment. How else are we going to fix what’s obviously broke? Do you want a big A/Q business, or a big and secret tool business? That’s the key question.
I am “hiding” my identity for several reasons, which I will repeat for your benefit:
1. There have been at least 2 alleged and documented death threats against others, and people have died over much less money than what is at stake here,
2. I don’t want to be pigeon-holed into a particular group, because most of the groups have the tool scam present, Orrin is just the most recent example, and he and his Orrinites have reinforced what we already knew. If it was known who I was/what group I was in, many of the other groups could pass me off at from “that group”, and “we don’t do things like that here”, which would limit my effectiveness,
3. Since I’m not scamming anyone, there is no reason I want my name dragged through the mud online,
4. Knowing my name does not change the facts, and
5. Making it personal takes focus off the facts. I once resisted telling others my pin level (at that time) when challenged, kept getting grief over it, so gave in. Then the endless taunting about my pin level got in the way of getting back to the main issue, the tool scam.
I could probably come up with a couple of more, but that’s good enough for now.
I don’t have opinion, I have facts and a logical conclusion of those facts. There are elements of an opinion, but not what many have implied, I do not have unsupported opinions.
It probably wouldn’t have mattered whether you consulted me prior to moving to TEAM, because you probably went from one tool scam system to another.
Former Ohio IBO #123,
It really sucks to be wrong, doesn’t it?
pvbvguy #124,
You don’t want to answer THE critical question? No dice.
The reasons I answered yes or no was to show you how easy it is to answer a simple question, something you are unable/unwilling to do. Also, those questions were fully answered with a yes/no.
If you want to supply only the numbers, and not the IBO names/or system name, that’s fine. But you’ll not get much more out of me until you do. My position on the tool scam is all over this and other blogs.
October 7th, 2007 at 1:05 am
TEX Said:
Former Ohio IBO #123,
It really sucks to be wrong, doesn’t it?
I wouldn’t know about being wrong. Obviously, you do. Try not to take it so hard though. I understand. Perhaps someday you will be right about something. In the meantime, enjoy yourself here, it looks like this is all you have, and the closest you will ever come to being heard.
Sucks to be an insignificant non achiever, doesn’t it?
October 8th, 2007 at 10:18 am
I managed to get hold of the court documents, for this latest case. I couldn’t believe my eyes.
A company called TEAM, was suing A/Q alleging that A/Q’s actions against Woodward et al, (Described as FORMER IBO’s, and FORMER team members) are causing harm to the businesses of the remainder of the team members.
So this is what integrity does: You (Woodward) want to take your LOS and LOA away from Q/A. Q/A (obviously) refuses. You then sue A/Q in California, alleging that Q/A is an illegal pyramid, therefor the contract is null and void, and therefor the restraint of trade clause is null and void. Next step is you (Woodward, and seemingly everybody involved in the suit in California) resign from TEAM. Then the legal entity called TEAM, files a suit in Texas, alleging that the actions Q/A is taking against Woodward et al, is harming TEAM’s Q/A business, which is a business they (TEAM) support!!! (In present tense).
This is cynical to the extreme - half of TEAM is sueing to get Q to let the LOS/A go, the other half is sueing, saying Q’s actions to protect the TEAM LOS is doing harm. They (rem TEAM) want the Q business to stay intact.
October 8th, 2007 at 11:40 am
Some of us have been around long enough to remember when the IBOIA/ADA Board was ELECTED to represent the IBOs/Distributors. Also, I recall a company tool tape, Ten Points, by Rich DeVos that said the Board would always be there to protect us. This is obviously no longer the case.
Let’s not kid ourselves, the Diamonds on both sides of this dispute have invested their lives in this business. For many, it is their main/sole source of income. Of course, some of them filed lawsuits. What did anyone expect them to do? Just throw up their hands and walk away empty? Meekly accept termination without arbitration? Forget their loyalty and leadership positions with their downlines? Abandon their way of life? People who would walkaway so easily don’t make it to Diamond, so check your attitudes folks.
So why the lawsuits across the country? Hell, yes, they sued. I would have been ashamed of them for not defending themselves as best they could.
What? You think they don’t care about their business and their Downlines? Could it be that the individual Diamond IBOs filed in their home states? Isn’t that where their personal ‘home-based’ business is at? They may have downlines across their country, but their business is where their home is? That’s not too difficult to understand is it? They are affiliated with TEAM, not owned by TEAM. They were teminated and/or resigned as INDEPENDENT Business Owners.
States of incorporation - Michigan? Maryland? Who cares? Only the IRS, that’s who and that why you pick whatever state you choose to incorporate in. Isn’t that why Quixtar is incorporated in Delaware, like so many other corporations?
For ‘business owners’, y’all are squabbling like a bunch of school kids calling each other names. Grow up! The childish shenanigans are only making ALL of us look bad and giving our non-IBO enemies more ammunition, especially the open-to-the-public Blogs, like this one.
October 8th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
Former Ohio IBO #126,
Sucks to be an insignificant non achiever, doesn’t it? —- How would you know? I was part of bringing down the Orrin tool scam, exposing the UK tool scam and the global tool scam. A pretty good start, if I should say so myself. Which I did.
October 8th, 2007 at 3:32 pm
William #128,
You are misinformed. The tool scam MUST be shut down for the A/Q business to survive. Period.
October 8th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
Tex Says:
October 8th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
Former Ohio IBO #126,
Sucks to be an insignificant non achiever, doesn’t it? —- How would you know? I was part of bringing down the Orrin tool scam, exposing the UK tool scam and the global tool scam. A pretty good start, if I should say so myself. Which I did.
You think posting on a blog is achieving something? You’re delusional / A legend in your OWN mind!
What country do you live in, anyway?
I kind of like “Insignificant Non Achiever”. Tex, aka “Insignificant Non Achiever” — “INA” for short. Has a nice ring to it. What does everyone else think?
October 8th, 2007 at 6:18 pm
Former Ohio IBO #131,
You think all I have done and am doing is posting on a blog? You’re delusional/Not a very good reader of my posts.
I live in the U.S.
I think the “Insignificant Non Achiever” name fits the tool business it stands for much better than it does me.
October 8th, 2007 at 11:11 pm
Tex #130 “You are misinformed. The tool scam MUST be shut down for the A/Q business to survive. Period.”
Tex, what system did you use to become such an everlovin’ know-it-all?
Your reading comprehension could use a little work. The only tool I mentioned is Rich DeVos’ “Ten Points” tape. The present corporate administration is certaily bringing that tool down.
I’m misinformed? How could that be possible with you around? Don’t even begin to presume that you know me or anything about me.
You brought everybody and everything down? Who do you think you are? Elliot Ness?
Were you “Deep Throat” for Watergate as well?
Were you the 2nd gunman on the grassy knoll, too?
Did G-d go on vacation and leave you in charge?
October 9th, 2007 at 12:20 am
William #133:
Psssssssst…………..William — don’t look now, but Tex “Insignificant Non Achiever” is about to tell you why you’re so wrong and he’s so right, as only he can be! LOL
October 9th, 2007 at 1:47 am
I’ve got a message for him:
“Nobody’s right, when everybody’s wrong.” Buffalo Springfield, 1969
October 9th, 2007 at 10:38 am
William #133,
Tex, what system did you use to become such an everlovin’ know-it-all? —- I research the information available on the internet, including lawsuits and blogs, read books, and had conversations with former Emeralds and above. Why do you ask?
Your reading comprehension could use a little work. The only tool I mentioned is Rich DeVos’ “Ten Points” tape. The present corporate administration is certaily bringing that tool down. —- Your thinking comprehension could use a little work. Why would you rely on any single piece of informtion to determine what is going on? Are you speaking of the tape that has been referenced by someone else, especially point #9? I proved that quote was taken out of context.
I’m misinformed? —- Yes
How could that be possible with you around? —- I have no idea, you should be much smarter by now. Probably has something to do with the thinking comprehension comment, above.
Don’t even begin to presume that you know me or anything about me. —- I know you’re clueless.
You brought everybody and everything down? —- Yes, single-handedly. Get a grip, it was a TEAM effort, pun intentional.
Who do you think you are? Elliot Ness? —- No, he was an ameteur compared to me.
Were you “Deep Throat” for Watergate as well? Yes.
Were you the 2nd gunman on the grassy knoll, too? Yes.
Did G-d go on vacation and leave you in charge? Yes. He even loaned me a lightning bolt, and said, “Keep an eye on that William guy, I think he may need to be taken out of his misery”.
I hope you enjoyed the above entertainment. No matter how much you try, this is not about me, it’s about the tool scam.
There are facts that support everything regarding what I and others have stated about the tool scam. I suggest you read up on these facts, I don’t really want to use the lightning bolt, you know. I’m too nice of a guy, as you know.
Former Ohio IBO #134,
Psssssssst…………..Former Ohio IBO — Do you have any facts that would imply I have made errors with respect to the tool scam? Didn’t think so. LOL
October 9th, 2007 at 11:59 am
Natives of the Lone Star state use a term of endearment for one looking to impress others of their importance - without fruit on the tree.
That term is “Big Hat - No Cattle” - they also call ‘em “Tex” …
October 9th, 2007 at 2:42 pm
William #135,
I’ve got a message for you: Just the facts, ma’am.
G #137,
Texans (and other southerners) also have a way of slamming someone and then letting them down easy.
Such as “G is so ignorant, bless his heart”.
October 9th, 2007 at 3:13 pm
Tex -
Hmmmm … you gotta help us here. Corp does not identify a “tool scam” or any derivative in any of their court documentation.
Were it not for your regurgitation of “facts” from the infallible Web, who else could have possibly made the connection?
We saw positioning and improper business building cited … are those actually double secret key words?
Looked in my box o Cracker Jacks … no decoder ring. What gives?
October 9th, 2007 at 3:19 pm
Next you’ll tell us folks from Hamtramck are “Southerners”?
October 9th, 2007 at 3:38 pm
Let’s take your basic premise as fact … “tool scam” has been going since before Rich talked about it in ‘82 …
Problem known to Corp principals has been allowed to “continue” for at least 20+ years - that would technically make them what? A willing accessory? Or are you claiming they were “innocent hostages”?
If former - seems the honorable thing for you to do is resign, based on what you have “personal knowledge” of - otherwise, if you’ve shown a plan since your discovery (which you indicate you have) you’re as guilty as those you freely disparage.
If the latter - you’re gonna have to do a bit more work to help us understand how a multi-billion $$$ Corp is held hostage by what amounts to banditos with bananas in pockets …
October 9th, 2007 at 7:08 pm
Tex,
All you want to scream is “TOOL SCAM! TOOL SCAM!” This isn’t about the tool business and never was. This is about a company overcharging for a decent product and misleading the people who have supported them. Amquix is bilking millions and millions of dollars from the IBO with their current practice. Overpriced products drove this rebellion and Amquix’s response fueled the fire! People buy the training system as an option,yet Amquix forces you to purchase overpriced products.
October 9th, 2007 at 9:52 pm
G #140, One of your friendly moderators was BORN in Hamtramck! Don’t know if it was the Southern end of town… I was just a baby.
October 9th, 2007 at 10:32 pm
G #139,
Hmmmm … you gotta help us here. Corp does not identify a “tool scam” or any derivative in any of their court documentation. —- No problem, that’s why I’m here. I suspect the corp. isn’t too proud of their lack of follow through after the “Directly Speaking” tapes, I and II. Have you listened to and/or read the transcript of these recordings?
Were it not for your regurgitation of “facts” from the infallible Web, who else could have possibly made the connection? —- I know, that’s why I’m here. This important issue can easily get covered up among other issues. Many people would much rather it stay that way, but the vast majority of the profit comes from the previously secret tool profits, so by definition it is the largest problem. In fact, many people (for example, Quixkicked in #142) defend their “kingpins” and unknowingly provide cover for their unethical and immoral business practices. What could be more important to any business than the source of the profits?
We saw positioning and improper business building cited … are those actually double secret key words? —- No, I think those were other issues, such as improper stacking, not mentioning the word Quixtar a single time during Opens and Seminars, Orrin and Chris being given credit for what Quixtar does at these same events, etc.
Looked in my box o Cracker Jacks … no decoder ring. What gives? —- You’re looking in the wrong place (what a surprise that is….NOT). Try the internet, read the various court cases, etc. If you want specifics, ask.
G #140,
Sorry, southern MI doesn’t count.
G #141,
Let’s take your basic premise as fact … “tool scam” has been going since before Rich talked about it in ‘82 … —- I believe it was ‘83, but close enough. Is there any doubt, assuming you’ve listened to/read the transcript from, the “Directly Speaking” recordings?
Problem known to Corp principals has been allowed to “continue” for at least 20+ years - that would technically make them what? A willing accessory? Or are you claiming they were “innocent hostages”? —- Probably closer to 30 years. I think there are a combination of factors at work, some of them with more evidence solid than others.
1. Rich had his first heart problems in 1983 (read his book - Hope From The Heart, he states this clearly in this book). His doctor probably told him to cut back on travel and highly stressful issues, which this certainly was, you can hear it in his voice on the above tapes. I never met Rich or Jay, but Rich comes across as the “hard charger” type, Jay is more laid back, which means they would have made a good team (and they have the results to prove it, both became multi-billionaires). The two of them were pretty much in charge in 1983, so when Rich had his problem, Jay was not of the temperment to take over the battle.
2. I have heard (rumors, nothing solid) some of the “kingpins” of that era, particularly Yager and Britt, actually boycotted the products, or threatened to, unless Amway backed off. This has little facts/evidence that I can find to support it, but it is mentioned by others and reasonable. Recall Amway had much less international business than they have now, so this would have been a major threat to their existance as a company.
3. Regardless of #2, I think in the beginning Amway was more of a victim, but as time went on, I consider them an accessory to the tool scam (how much they are a passive accessory or active accessory is not well known, and from the perspective of the net result on the IBO, this is not the major issue), because the “kingpins” were delivering what they wanted, product flow. Amway also had Canadian and FTC negative publicity to put behind them, they didn’t need to compound their problems with their own people. Amway obviously wasn’t happy about the tool scam, but did little to stop it. I have asked the corp. repeatedly on various blogs if they told the “kingpins” not to disclose the tool profits, as Ron Simmons, Chuck Goetschel, and Andy Andrews have stated, with no response. However, I doubt very much the corp. told them not to lower tool prices, the “kingpins” haven’t answered this question, which has also been asked repeatedly.
If former - seems the honorable thing for you to do is resign, based on what you have “personal knowledge” of - otherwise, if you’ve shown a plan since your discovery (which you indicate you have) you’re as guilty as those you freely disparage. —- I disagree. Most people quit, when they find out about the tool scam and don’t like it. I think Rober Frost said it well:
I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.
You see, if I quit, I would have very little influence over this issue. I would not be an IBO, so I could be ignored by both my upline and the corp. I would not have as much influence with governmental agencies, I could not collect information, such as that used against TEAM regarding the bad information being put out at Opens and Seminars, etc. As I have said before, this scam has negatively affected the finances of literally millions of former and current Distributors/IBO’s, for 3-4 decades, to the tune of an estimated hundreds of millions to billions of dollars, perhaps more. Did you read the latest Britt lawsuit, where the plaintiff claims tens of millions of dollars EVERY MONTH flows through that organization, and that’s probably only the books and tapes, not the functions. And that’s only ONE organization, although one of the larger ones. This business teaches doing something different, against the stream, and that is exactly what I have done.
I thought from the first time I saw the plan that this was a brilliant idea, to leverage the efforts of others, so all could win. Like millions of others before me, I just didn’t see the tool scam. I refuse to allow millions after me to be scammed as well.
If the latter - you’re gonna have to do a bit more work to help us understand how a multi-billion $$$ Corp is held hostage by what amounts to banditos with bananas in pockets … —- I think the above explains the answer to this question. If the corp. ever was “innocent hostages”, they no longer are, and they need to stop pretending. Now.
Prior to the internet, the corp. could feign ignorance, it is obvious this is no longer possible. Unfortunately, they waited until the UK DTI clamped down on them, now they have to react, rather than take the initiative. This does NOT shine a favorable light on them, in my opinion.
Do you still think I’m a corp. employee, or an agent, paid or unpaid, for them?
Quixkicked #142,
You’re wrong.
Follow the dollars.
The dollars indicate most profit is from tools, not A/Q. This same profit creates net losses for most IBO’s. The fact that some products are not competitively priced is minor compared to the tool scam, and allowed A/Q to become lazy with prices, because the upline was making plenty of profit via their tool scam, so they didn’t complain with any vigor (until the UK fiasco occurred, and Q will now be forced to clamp down on the tool scam in the U.S. as well), plus the “kingpins” did not have any moral authority to demand product price reductions.
You’ve been had by your upline.
Who are we leaving out of this little equation? That’s right, the millions of IBO’s trying to make their businesses work, most of them unknowingly getting ripped off by their self proclaimed “business partners” and “teammates”, their upline.
October 9th, 2007 at 11:25 pm
CC #143,
Well, you have to be from somewhere.
October 10th, 2007 at 8:15 am
G #141,
One more point.
I believe that over the years, there was less and less central control at the corp., and therefore this issue became diluted across many departments.
It is what often happens in large corporations, the problems are still there, but nobody “owns” them, so they don’t get fixed.
It’s called bureaucracy, the federal government is the best at it.
October 10th, 2007 at 10:09 am
#142 Quixkicked:
No one forces (or forced) anyone to buy anything. Pull up your big boy pants and take some responsibility for the things you do.
You were not forced to join Quixtar.
You were not forced to buy products.
(You did that because your TEAM buddies encouraged it, right? It’s all about self-consumption for y’all.)
Nor were you forced to sell those products. (Most of y’all couldn’t retail your way out of a paper bag. That’s TEAM’s fault, not Quixtar’s.)
October 10th, 2007 at 11:06 am
Tex -
After reviewing PDAP “Accreditation” required for QBI, I fail to see the language regarding BSM business profitability. So much for “transparency”, eh?
I suppose they’re also “working” on that.
I’m also hearing that several organizations you have identified as “problem children” are on verge of accreditation, Tex. I’ll bet they’re just voluntarily resolving BSM issues you indicate without even being asked to.
Got some swamp land in Idaho to show ya if you’re a-buyin’ that scenario.
Tex, if this is the herald of things to come, at what point do we simply conclude that while the business concept may indeed be a GREAT idea, the present custodians of said IDEA are either incapable or unwilling to change practices (or both) and therefore become unqualified to perpetrate such a tainted “opportunity” to participate?
As for keeping your IBO # simply to have a “voice” in the matter, you might be better advised to explore the Federal Witness Protection Program … of course if you went directly there without the requisite waiting period that would be construed to be in violation of the precious Rules of Conduct, you understand.
Many “organizations” have strongly enforced “Rules of Conduct” — they’re especially mandatory when skirting legality - and that’s when barristers become very important participants.
October 10th, 2007 at 5:35 pm
Tex # 146 -
We gotta be careful there … we’re talking about the original home of overpriced products!
If that’s the case - we probably need equivalent of Mr. Truman (or if you prefer, “Oh Harry!” - couldn’t resist)
Seriously, someone (not some committee) better consider taking ownership while there’s yet something to own. If DTI rules there’s been continual wrong beyond “BAD IBOs/systems” head fake espoused here, it’s “turn out the lights time” — and entire EU won’t be far behind.
October 10th, 2007 at 5:50 pm
Tex -
One more point …. Enron had a lot of departments, too - and a lot of bureaucracy to boot. While it might be reality they’re big Corp today - I don’t think it’s a plausible defense. Everybody has a “direct report” and the “buck” has simply gotta stop somewhere - that’s the exact opposite of “it’s all them bad IBOs - it’s not about us!” heard with regularity from mothership.
How about “folks, here’s where we messed up, and here’s exactly how we’re gonna fix it”. THAT would go along way to restoring confidence.
Problem is - there would have to be someone left in Ada with the intestinal fortitude to take charge that’s not a hired gun.
It’s a whole lot tougher than delivering a tightly scripted feel good webcast …
October 10th, 2007 at 6:38 pm
GirlPower #147,
Bingo.
G #148,
I don’t know if they’re working on it, but I have complained about it, on more than one occasion.
As I said, accreditation doesn’t do much for me. In fact, it puts a false “seal of approval” on the tool scam.
I think we’re already at that point, have you kept up with the UK fiasco? Do you honestly think Quixtar can get away with NOT changing over here as well? If so, I’ve got some swamp land to show you, but it’s not in Idaho, it’s on the moon.
When I want your advice, I’ll ask you. What rule(s) would I break if I did do that? Is the federal witness program an MLM?
Many “organizations” have strongly enforced “Rules of Conduct” — they’re especially mandatory when skirting legality - and that’s when barristers become very important participants. —- I have no idea what this means. English, please.
October 10th, 2007 at 11:12 pm
Tex #148
In order to be a candidate for Federal Witness Protection Program … you’d have to be a witness. That would mean there’s a lawsuit. We all play paddy cake with arbitration or are force fed the kool aid …
As for “other organizations” I recount an example of family businesses with rather strict Rules of Conduct in place - I think one of ‘em was Gamboni. Their barristers took em only so far as well - skilled as they were, the questionable activity over time finally played itself out. Some of the folks testifying against them required Federal Witness Protection Program as memory serves …
October 10th, 2007 at 11:41 pm
G #150,
I wasn’t trying to suggest it was any kind of a defense, but more of the reason why an otherwise obvious problem that was accurately described by an insider (co-founder Rich DeVos, not just any insider), but never acted on.
Same idea as $600 hammers.
Neither makes any sense, except in a bureaucratic environment.
October 11th, 2007 at 9:49 am
Tex #151 -
Is it *possible* they WANT to give a seal of approval to this “system” over that “system” regardless of transparency?
That has been the crux of my dis-content. There does NOT appear to be any intention to resolve the issues you allege, but rather we are to await a puff of smoke up the chimney to know who the next “leaders” are.
As long as you’ll identify where they can pick off the “unannointed ones”, you serve a useful purpose. However, there IS a reason your discontent with their complicity falls on deaf ears. I really don’t think they care to hear they may be more than a small part of the problem. And, if they say nothing … it didn’t happen, right?
As for the $600 hammers, that’s a function of spending someone else’s money (or in this case, protecting someone else’s assets) when they really don’t care about either price or quality.
The days of any partnership between corp and field are GONE. Do as we say - we’ll let you stay, you ungrateful but oh so necessary (for now) peons. But don’t you dare presume to give your useless opinion unless asked for (almost a ditto of your 4th paragraph to - er, at me) . Coincidence - hardly. That’s now the prevailing attitude of uncompassionate capitalism. Alas, the recollections of what Rich may have said when HE cared are now but curious echoes of days gone by.
October 11th, 2007 at 10:49 am
G #152,
In order to be a candidate for Federal Witness Protection Program … you’d have to be a witness. That would mean there’s a lawsuit. We all play paddy cake with arbitration or are force fed the kool aid … —- I gave input to the Q lawyers, to be used for at least one of the lawsuits. I haven’t been called to be a witness, yet. Arbitration uses witnesses, but I doubt it would result in a FWP being used. But you’re the one who brought it up in the first place, it never made any sense to me.
These guys are rank ameteur crooks compared to the Mafia. To compare them to the Mafia is an insult to the “professionalism” of the Mafia. Having said that, there are 2 examples of alleged violent threats against those involved with the “kingpins”. The video guy who sued Gooch, and Eric Scheibeler.
October 11th, 2007 at 11:12 am
Tex #155 -
You’re providing the examples . I believe the key word on your witness comment was after comma … yet.
I recall you brought up threats well before these comments of mine. It IS a big stakes poker game - with a healthy ante.
Don’t recall either of these examples in Compassionate Capitalism.
…’Nuff said.
October 11th, 2007 at 11:45 am
G #154,
Is it *possible* they WANT to give a seal of approval to this “system” over that “system” regardless of transparency? —- If you follow the requirements, you should get accredited, simple as that. However, accreditation does not mean tool profit transparency for the typical IBO.
That has been the crux of my dis-content. There does NOT appear to be any intention to resolve the issues you allege, but rather we are to await a puff of smoke up the chimney to know who the next “leaders” are. —- I am not happy with the corp, either. They have been much less than transparent. But if you don’t clean up the big mess first, you’ll never get to the other issues.
As long as you’ll identify where they can pick off the “unannointed ones”, you serve a useful purpose. —- That’s easy. Open the “Profiles of Success”, or if they wear an Emerald pin or above, there they are.
However, there IS a reason your discontent with their complicity falls on deaf ears. I really don’t think they care to hear they may be more than a small part of the problem. And, if they say nothing … it didn’t happen, right? —- The corp doesn’t care unless it starts to affect THEIR bottom line, as it did in the UK. Now that it’s also affecting their bottom line in the U.S., stand by for more positive changes. It is happening now, but we have a lot further to go.
As for the $600 hammers, that’s a function of spending someone else’s money (or in this case, protecting someone else’s assets) when they really don’t care about either price or quality. —- I hope the $600 hammers had good quality, but never saw one. The high tool prices fit into your concept quite well, the upline doesn’t mind “spending someone else’s money”, especially if it ends up in their back pocket.
The days of any partnership between corp and field are GONE. Do as we say - we’ll let you stay, you ungrateful but oh so necessary (for now) peons. —- The partnership is better between the corp and IBO’s than the “kingpins” and IBO’s. If you follow the rules, there should be a very good partnership.
But don’t you dare presume to give your useless opinion unless asked for (almost a ditto of your 4th paragraph to - er, at me). Coincidence - hardly. That’s now the prevailing attitude of uncompassionate capitalism. Alas, the recollections of what Rich may have said when HE cared are now but curious echoes of days gone by. —- I have given my opinion on many occasions. On this blog, with my Sales Manager and Rules Department (including a supervisor) on the phone and via e-mail. I think you are afraid of UFO’s (Unidentified/Unfounded Fear Obstacles). This is a new term I heard this morning while listening to a TIF cassette tape, and thought it was very clever. It was used in the context of overcoming fears associated with contacting, showing the plan, etc., but can also be used when talking about communicating with the corp. Although slow to act, the corp is much more open to feedback/opinion than the upline, including the IBOAI.
October 11th, 2007 at 1:33 pm
Tex #157 -
So, if I understand what you’re saying …
1) Profit matters much more than business integrity in Ada today.
2) If you follow the rules (whatever we decide they are today), you shouldn’t get hurt - much.
I’m much more comfortable now - except for that darn nagging “peace in out times” vision echoing in my consciousness. Perhaps that will change following current Battle of Britain (DTI)- or not.
Thanks so much for putting the unfounded concerns to rest. I’m certain that after they get rid of all the tyrants they don’t support, they’ll suddenly come to their senses and become the kinder gentler folks we recall.
Now, you said something about lunar real estate … sounds about as plausible to me. How much you in for?
October 11th, 2007 at 1:56 pm
G #156,
It was much bigger stakes before the terminations. Orrin and Co. lost a lot of leverage when they were let go.
Indirectly, these examples WERE brought up in Compassionate Capitalism. If you have the book and/or videos, Rich does a good job of stating there are dishonest capitalists (the book), and those who own the tools call the shots (video, I think it is the second one). He never uses the tool scam as an illustration, but if you put the book, video and “Directly Speaking” recordings together, the complete picture is there.
October 11th, 2007 at 6:08 pm
G #158,
1) Profit matters much more than business integrity in Ada today. —- You don’t understand.
2) If you follow the rules (whatever we decide they are today), you shouldn’t get hurt - much. —- Not even close.
I’m much more comfortable now - except for that darn nagging “peace in out times” vision echoing in my consciousness. Perhaps that will change following current Battle of Britain (DTI)- or not. —- There never will be peace, too many greedy humans are involved. Rich was naive to believe that people would act honorably, and should have clamped down on the tool scam long ago. Now governmental agencies are (finally) doing it for him.
Thanks so much for putting the unfounded concerns to rest. I’m certain that after they get rid of all the tyrants they don’t support, they’ll suddenly come to their senses and become the kinder gentler folks we recall. —- That would be a good thing, as long as they don’t become complacent.
Now, you said something about lunar real estate … sounds about as plausible to me. How much you in for? —- How much money you got?
October 12th, 2007 at 1:59 pm
Tex #160:
1) —- You don’t understand. Then again perhaps I do. 1983 to 2007 is a LONG TIME for a brain fart. Now, “selective amnesia” on the other hand has no statute of limitation other than it’s consequences … things “ignored” tend to get worse, not disappear.
2) —- Not even close. - The “we” I refer to is Corp. And with that in mind, I agree with your astute evaluation.
There never will be peace, too many greedy humans are involved. - Again, you said it. I’m sure many “Air Force” craft were obtained after 1983 - and NOT on credit. I suppose those $$$ came from volume of non-system groups - if we’re to believe there’s not top-down complicity, then you MUST be serious about lunar real estate as well!
October 12th, 2007 at 3:21 pm
G #161,
1. Okay, let’s say you’re Rich DeVos, and it’s 1983. You just had your first hard problem, the doc said take it easy, stay away from stressful events. Your partner, who you run the business with, is too laid back to take over this issue. The lying cowardly “kingpins” have threatened or actually boycotted the products, and you have thousands of employees who depend on you making the right decision. What do YOU do, hotshot?
2. My “not even close” is in reference to the variability you see in the rules. It just ain’t there. The tool scam is, however, loud and clear.
I hope you don’t think I’m giving A/Q a “pass” on this mess, because I’m not. All I was doing was explaining factors that led to where we are now, and that’s all.
October 12th, 2007 at 4:28 pm
Tex -
I don’t believe for one minute Ada has been on auto-pilot since ‘83 - do you? Think that eliminates the “victim” plea …
Lessee … they could have said “what’s our best case scenario” and “what’s our worst case scenario” - followed by “is the risk of the worst worth the benefit of the best”? If so, MAKE A DECISION AND RUN YOUR ENTERPRISE!
Of course, if this analysis happened and decision was ignore - which is possible - then in effect they decided to “leave her adrift till she shipwrecks”, eh?
October 12th, 2007 at 4:41 pm
Tex -
By the way …
The ambiguity of rule language and it’s interpretation/application has a real negative effect in real peoples lives not named VA or DeV or employed by same who are meeting the spirit of the agreement.
And therefore my complaint - that Corp assuming everyone is a potential “target” AND TREATING THEM AS SUCH tends to cause collateral damage to a LOT of “friendlies”. It’s a proven way to run out of supporters in a hurry …
October 12th, 2007 at 5:12 pm
G #163/4,
You don’t want to answer the question, do you?
I can’t think of a single instance where innocents or “friendlies” were damaged by the corp. I can think of many that apply to the upline. So who are you concerned with, again? Is it the corp or the upline?