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Alticor Media Blog is the official news weblog from the Alticor family of companies.
September 12th, 2007 @ 4:07 pm ET…
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Filed by: Corporate Communications
Posted in: Alticor, Amway, Quixtar, Transformation
September 12th, 2007 at 4:13 pm
Did the judge give any specific date to expect his ruling (or was it just “expect something later in the month…”?
Thanks!
September 12th, 2007 at 4:26 pm
Who is the “we” that sat through the hearing? We are required to put a name and email address, why is the coorporate blog poster not required to identify themselves? I am curious about who was present at this hearing, who was there from the founding families, IBOAI, NAFC? You have told us what TEAM attorneys have said, how about Quixtar attorneys or have they not been given their turn yet?
September 12th, 2007 at 4:27 pm
Can you explain what’s on one of the ‘other’ websites in regards to the court case today in California: “Quixtar given until September 19th to respond by legal brief”???
It’s good to hear that things like “reason, common sense, and analysis” are on the judge’s mind. That’s really reassuring, given the emotional nature of the plaintiffs’ arguments.
September 12th, 2007 at 4:30 pm
“Sure didn’t sound like anything we could easily work out over a cup of coffee anymore.”
Pardon me, but yes it does. It’s called settle. Acquiesce to the simple request of letting any IBO leave the company to pursue other business structures that may be in competition with Quixtar. Give all IBO’s the 60-day wait out before they enter into competitive arrangements and let true free enterprise ensue. If the “transformation” is so great stop delaying the greatest competitor you have ever created against yourselves and let’s get it on - legally without courts and orders and TROs. Let’s fight. Every day you stall you only stoke the fires of competition for hundreds of thousands of IBO and FORMER IBOs everywhere to compete against you and win. Whether it’s 60 days or 6 months it really won’t matter about raiding because IBO’s everywhere will be knocking down the doors of other business opportunities where ‘freedom’ isn’t just a catchphrase it truly is a matter of integrity.
September 12th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
A cup of coffee? Are you serious? This is what we tried to do in the first place and all we get is “you ambushed us”. I resigned from Quikscum yesterday and am ashamed to have anything to do with them in the first place. Was at a restaurant yesterday and met up with a group calling themselves ” A new business called Quixtar powered by Amway”. They wanted to sit down to explain what they do. I told them, in a professional tone ” I am currently in a Business and not allowed to join a competing business”, but I wished them luck and good fortune. After being asked what I was in and I said “Team” they gave me the look of death. Very professional. I am loyal to the ones who have my best interset at heart. Orrin and Chris.
September 12th, 2007 at 4:35 pm
“we think the facts, the law and common sense are on our side.”
-We have yet to see any facts from you against the claims in this court case. If they’re there, they might start showing up now that the case is underway, but up until now it has been nothing but personal attacks.
-Seems like the common sense thing would’ve been to allow Team out of the non-compete instead of getting into this huge legal and PR battle, which frankly isn’t helping anyone right now. If the Quixtar opportunity is so good, you shouldn’t have to keep people in by contract…they should want to stay in.
-And as far as the law goes… In California, that non-compete amounts to almost nothing.
September 12th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
I thought you (Q) had the last month to prepare your response? Now you have an extra week? Sounds like you haven’t done your homework. I think you have a real fight o your hands boys.
September 12th, 2007 at 5:07 pm
“Sure didn’t sound like anything we could easily work out over a cup of coffee anymore.” Doesn’t sound like you were ever willing to work out over a cup of coffee in the first place. I refer to previous posts such as “Just Go, Team” and many others. The way I understand the facts, Quixtar better have some miracle data to dispute the obvious. Good luck!
September 12th, 2007 at 5:09 pm
THE MOST IMPORTANT INFORMATION I HAVE FOUND
I am still in agreement with my immature metaphor about T vs Q
“Team blew a fart and blamed it on Quixtar before others could smell the stink!”
on my blog I am posting http://www.freetheibo.com/images/Compendium_of_Exhibits.pdf and telling people to please read pages 24-31, exhibit 1 and 2.
Even though this pdf was written by TEAM Plaintiffs, the 2 exhibits tell the story, and support Quixtars case.
September 12th, 2007 at 5:12 pm
Great post Alticor–nothing here to make anyone feel offended, just a concise update. The whole illegal pyramid argument is amazing–I’d like to say ludicrous, but I’m not into sparring with any disgruntled IBOs. It seems like most people blogging are pretty solid about where they stand. To me this fight is analogous to a civil war.
September 12th, 2007 at 5:27 pm
Seems to me that you should have had that cup of coffee when it was offered to you, Q. You could have saved yourself and all of us a lot of grief. So sad.
September 12th, 2007 at 5:34 pm
When will this California case be done? When is the ruling date and Court Decision?
If there is a final ruling that says Quixtar is a Legal business, and TEAM cannot break the non-compete, then what? Is TEAM going to keep filing lawsuits non-stop around the Country?
TEAM - define Victory and Defeat now Please.
by the way, TROs and Lawsuits are not the same. This California Lawsuit has 100X the impact of all the TROs combined.
September 12th, 2007 at 5:45 pm
Yes, you had your chance for settling it over a cup of coffee. I guess you blew that…
September 12th, 2007 at 5:46 pm
“The future of the Quixtar business, he said, may be “largely a question of market forces”—how well we are able to compete with other companies. Fair enough.”
Moderator/Quixtar - what did the judge/you mean by this?
thank you,
JT
September 12th, 2007 at 5:55 pm
I understand this is Alticor’s website but give me a break.
“sound like a group of people determined to destroy the Quixtar business opportunity”
No, they just wanted to be released from a business that seems to be headed in a direction that is exceedingly different than what a lot of people got into.
QUESTION: When someone asks, “what do you do” how many of you ibo’s are going to respond with, “have you heard of Amway”?
If not, why not?
September 12th, 2007 at 6:06 pm
They tried for years to sit down with Quixtar and have a good conversation over a cup of coffee on how to build a better Quixtar business. The ball was in your court and you failed to deliver. Soon alot of Amway IBO’s will be playing for the another Team, because as the saying goes “If you can’t beat them - Join Them.
September 12th, 2007 at 6:09 pm
Let’s be honest here either way the ruling goes the image of quixtar/amway is taking a beating through all of this. I believe that overly priced products, poorly handled PR, and the inconsiderate way that some of the top producers in all of quixtar/amways history are being attacked BY THEIR OWN FORMER COMPANY is atrocious. I have to wonder what would stop them from treating us the same way in the future. In all fairness, if walmart or any other big name company treated me (or anyone else) this way i would for sure lose confidence in them and no longer represent their company. The same holds true for this company who clearly has little regard for some of the most respected names in this industry. I thought this was a billion dollar business…please handle yourself like one. Good luck in the future.
September 12th, 2007 at 6:15 pm
Vote what Outcome you expect at my blog, I will report the results.
If/When Quixtar wins (Declared again a Legal Business, TEAM can’t break non-compete rule they signed), they will have overcome the biggest major attack of their business, and will be stronger than ever.
September 12th, 2007 at 6:17 pm
Hard to believe Woodward and others, these self-described paragons of virtue, can move straight from making money at the top of an “illegal pyramid” to suing that same pyramid. Their strained explanations don’t even pass the laugh test.
It’s even harder to believe they’ve managed to convince so many IBOs to go along with them.
Sounds like there’s at least one fair judge left in California. Here’s hoping that facts and reason DO indeed prevail.
September 12th, 2007 at 6:29 pm
Orin et al have sown the whirlwind…hope they have a secure storm shelter…Karma’s a bitch
September 12th, 2007 at 6:45 pm
the good fight ? you’re kidding ….right ? what’s good about this fight ? people on both sides of this issue are losing…losing faith, losing income, losing their patience …good fight , my eye !
the only thing that makes sense in any of this is what the judge said in this comment The future of the Quixtar business, he said, may be “largely a question of market forces”—how well we are able to compete with other companies.
cause we all know how well Q competes in the marketplace, don’t we ? at least in the marketplace of today’s economy…most real American people just trying to get by…having to raise families on incomes that necessitate both parents working. yep, those people are today’s market…and they speak the loudest with their dollars when they say ” $2 for an 8 oz energy drink..are you kidding me ? “
September 12th, 2007 at 6:51 pm
The beach has been taken.
Stand by for battle.
September 12th, 2007 at 6:55 pm
- 3% of total sales from customers?
- selling products WAY above market value?
- only way for IBO’s to profit is recruiting others?
Putting emotion aside, common sense tells me when you must recruit others to make profit from products that are not retailable, that’s an illegal pyramid business model. It’s pretty much a picture perfect dictionary definition.
September 12th, 2007 at 7:00 pm
You guys are so full of crap.. the TEAM wanted to “work it all out over coffee” as you state but you were the ones who turned that down.
Your really concerned about the futures of the IBO community…
Is that why in some of your European markets you sell around your IBO force at retail?
Is that why Amway is starting to invest in retail established cosmetic companys?
So how many years do you guy go before you sell around whatever is left of your IBO forces after they brave the wave of AMWAY reborn?
Is that why you dont pay you upper bonuses (emerald / diamond) bonuses until 24 MONTHS after qualification has been earned?
Is that why in one court that shall remain nameless that one of your legal staff stated that Amway “OWNS” their downlines? Hmm.. thought that we were independant business owners?
Is this why now there are 95 pages of rules and regulations to what an IBO can and CANT do? I can understand regulating the rules based on a legal, moral and ethical standard.. but most of the people who become IBOs dont realize the handcuffs that they are putting on!
It is a sad state of affairs. This isnt the business I started in the early 90’s. And as the shroud of secrecy rises to what is actually going on it amazes me to just what happens behind the scenes.
Saddened? Angry? Feel cheated? Yeah.. I cant beleive that I dedicated so much time to a crowd of snakes who were only out for their own benefit. Amway wasnt founded on that prinicpal.
It is amazing to what a little money and power given to the wrong people can do.
Compassionate Capatalism my butt!
September 12th, 2007 at 7:22 pm
Sure sounds like “being right” is more important than what is right. It’s OK to start your own new MLM or Networking Marketing opportunity but let’s do it the right way.
As an Amway Distributor and then a Quixtar IBO since 1978, I know what is right about our business model. It’s not about tools having given you influence over others. Or even an analysis of price and competition in a marketplace we’ve never targeted.
It’s about following the core rules which have always been in place. The foundational rules of our business model have not changed, despite the conduct of some who now find the very business they built to a size they feel warrants the leverage of waging a court battle, may express in both public and private forums.
In the heat of battle people often choose a position which is counter to everything they believed in while getting to their position of influence. What is right is to stick with the foundation principles. They really haven’t changed.
And, No, the beliefs of such people in their hearts really haven’t changed. Their goal and the tactics they choose to utilize “maybe” and that’s not right.
September 12th, 2007 at 7:27 pm
Work it out over a cup of coffee? That sounds about right! Where has the person who wrote this been the last two months? We’ve been past a cup o joe for awhile.
September 12th, 2007 at 7:30 pm
You’ve already lost, you just don’t know it yet.Letting it get this far,in this manner has already doomed you.
September 12th, 2007 at 7:33 pm
“Sure didn’t sound like anything we could easily work out over a cup of coffee anymore.”
Come on, no reason for junk talk. It has been obvious from past posts that doing that has not been your intention anyway.
This court is bad enough for all of us….. Besides dealing with both sides sly remarks to try to get to the truth of what is going on…
September 12th, 2007 at 8:14 pm
Hmmm….
The future of Quixtar is a question of “market forces?”
I wonder what Quixtar will do when the “market force”, or better known as the community, moves on without them? I have a strong feeling after this weekend Quixtar will have to figure that question out.
September 12th, 2007 at 8:35 pm
Alticor is still letting a 14 year old write the official blog?
September 12th, 2007 at 8:41 pm
What exactly is the good fight you refer to? It seems to me that if you are truly offering a free enterprise business, why not let people go if that is what they choose. I don’t see what amway has to gain by fighting this battle, it seems there is already mass exodus going on with resignations. If “IBOs” don’t want any part of amway or the business opportunity that you represent then why force them to stay against there will with clauses in the contract. I just can’t seem to wrap my mind around what exactly it is your trying to accomplish by fighting this battle. The only thing I can think of is that it is just a pride thing, it appears you don’t want TEAM ibos in your business anymore anyway so just let them go!
September 12th, 2007 at 8:42 pm
Just Go Team? Who threw the coffee in Team’s face to start with? Woodward obviously gave Quixtar time to keep all of us out of this mess, and Quixtar wouldn’t set down on Aug. 9th. Quixtar filed a Brief a week ago, why did they need more time to file a brief today?
If any of the things that Randy Haugen, Ron Simmons, Chuck G. are saying are true, Quixtar messed up. That being said, should Team have changed a couple of things, like not requiring BSM or products when signing up - yes. Were they willing to talk about changing this - yes.
Woodward’s affidavit does list several prices of items that are competitive per use. Unfortunately, if Quixtar wanted to set down and discuss this over coffee, it is a little late. I told you want to do a month ago..you ignored my suggestions. The whole bunch of IBO leaders have been telling Quixtar what needed to be fixed for years, particularly since June.
Alicor could tell the truth instead of spinning the news. Quixtar has lost lots of rulings the last couple of weeks.
You better figure out how to win this one or we are all toast.
September 12th, 2007 at 8:47 pm
This lawsuit is completely laughable. Just trot out a few stacks of real IBO customer orders from the past week. Case closed.
The notion that our products can’t be sold at retail is ludicrous. Throughout our upline Diamond’s organization there are countless examples of monthly retail circles that are upwards of 1000PV.
September 12th, 2007 at 8:57 pm
Thanks for the well written post, Alticor. I’m glad to hear the judge is not swayed by emotion. Keep fighting the good fight!
September 12th, 2007 at 9:04 pm
In order to “work it out over a cup of coffee” wouldn’t both parties need to be present? Your management team couldn’t even find their way back to a meeting room last month and it was at YOUR place!
PLEASE cut the condescending banter - it does not play well in Peoria (or anywhere else than Ada …)
September 12th, 2007 at 9:22 pm
This is not the good fight my good coperation!!
This little complaint the WOODWARD Team has put on the table…WELL, it has teeth and we all know it does. I’m now pi*&^%$ off at this whole deal. All and this good fight stuff… Is our great company going to really shove this under the rug like a little pile of DUST? What if they find truth in our product being high priced? They will! It feel like a cover up starting to happen. What ever my great company……. I do think it is great or was great & can be again. But Not As AMWAY! I’m NON TEAM and that is this PLATINUMS position. Not all of us are on TEAM so if they have some real points and they DO. Let’s not fight the truth & distroy us all.
Let them all do what makes them happy and let the ones go go and the one’s stay stay!
GET IT!!!! THIS IS AMERICA.Not a control deal. This is about what is best for us IBO’s. Dirty secreat NOn-compete in our renewals? It sucks and it’s not fair. It only works well for us internally. Period. Did you all hear that internally the rule is fantastic. If we feel that we need to build a differant MLM and that is what we personaly think is best for our family that is what we should be able to do. & sc**&&^% U TEX and Jthompson whoever.
How dare you QUIXTAR think you can keep this group as if it is yours. You didn’t build them they did …Let them Go. That is the GOOD FIGHT. Even if it is tens of thousands Let them go. In Peace and save us all form this.
If you QUIXTAR don’t have a deal the people want then shame on you. GET BETTER.
Making a fair pricing for us IBO’s that is the GOOD FIGHT.
Do all of you really like this little Fight that is happening????
September 12th, 2007 at 9:28 pm
You people read anymore? It says Team is saying quixtar is an illegal pyramid, they are not just trying to get out of the non-compete anymore, their trying to bring quixtar down. If their just trying to get otta the non-compete, then why did they say the stuff about Quixtar being an illegal pyramid? Please do your research before you post.You know whats going to happen? Quixtar will win, the reaming people of team will be asorbed into quixtar, and by the time these lawsuits are done it will be well over 6 months, so Team will be able to start the new MLM. Then after I would estimate, 1-2 years, their new MLM will be gone, and orrin and his buddies will, retire on their millions, and all that followed them will be w/o a job.
September 12th, 2007 at 10:20 pm
Craig Eddy
I believe you are sadly mistaken. 99.99% of the pv in those 1000 pv circles are not from retail sales but are from self consumption alone, nice try though !!!
September 12th, 2007 at 10:34 pm
Just curious…whats the difference if people on the Team are allowed to leave now or in six months? Either way people are definitly going to leave after seeing how people are treated by a billion dollar company with a golden pacifier in its mouth. What is really won even if quixtar/amway wins this case? They still lost many major leading distributors and many many other up and coming distributors. Plus, the company has done a great job at tarnishing their own name once again. Who really gives a rip about the conflict of interest. (By the way I thought this was FREE ENTERPRISE) People have freedom of choice to pursue whatever interests they would like. ***Unless its a company who sends out child-like blogs because it just lost major market share and wants to cling to whatever morsels of business might remain. (hmmm…interesting)
September 12th, 2007 at 10:59 pm
This is the beginning of the fall for the two “GREAT” legendary leaders, Rich DeVos and Jay Van Andel. I sure hope that their families have a good retirement plan. Amway has, is and will be a foul word long after the corporation crumbles. Mr. DeVos and Mr. Van Andel only care about their families, NOT the families of all the IBO’s that they have impacted in a negative way over the last several months. As for the people that think Quixtar is the greatest business oportunity, I understand that The Mayo Clinic has a great Psychology department, maybe you should seek help with your issues of denial.
My children are having nightmares when they think of the new (same old Amway) name coming in 24 months.
Truly
Exceptional
And
More
September 12th, 2007 at 11:03 pm
Quixtar blogs,
Your communication is fine. I like you talking like a human being, not a robot.
This is an Alticor site. Q is not suppossed to be “nice” to a group of people that are dropping lawsuits on them like Kobe drops 15 foot jumpers. TEAM is trying to put a business with a 70 year amazing history out of business.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:07 pm
-Confidentiality Agreement posted on the LOS.
This sent me fumming. The IBO’s built the LOS in the field with there own time and money. I am speechless at the duplicity of Quixtar management. Team has a better model and system that allows a person to make decisions based on what best for them not for the corporation. It is the community that drives the growth and death of a business. Quixtar communitty has gotten smaller by one. TEAM has shown better results, they had growth in a hard enviroment. Quixtar’s results equal negativity loss of communtity and a system that will make it impossible for anyone to succed into a big business like the TEAM.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:09 pm
Just Go team Go.
September 12th, 2007 at 11:21 pm
Nope…coffee ain’t gonna help at this point. Quick note to Quixtar legal…THINK! Or atleast try to occasionally. You have thousands of IBO’s (most now FORMER IBO’s)…many with massive results…that are going to totally bury you guys out in the field. Do you think March 08′ is never going to arrive? That’s the end of the wait period fellas…You have lit the torch on a rocketship! 900 plus Platinums and above were able to get that done riding your Jollopy…What would happen if they had a REAL business?
September 12th, 2007 at 11:26 pm
Response to comment #33 (Craig Eddy)
Craig…I checked out your website…no mention of AMWAY or QUIXTAR. It appears that you may be “positioning” your business innapropriately. I will forward the link to Quixtar legal for ya…just to be on the safe side…
September 12th, 2007 at 11:46 pm
#33 - Craig,
Please tell us what upline Diamond you have that has 1000PV circles through out it. What products specifically are you all retailing at FULL suggested retail and not less than that. The Ribbon products are probably your only products you can retail to that degree. ALL other products are out of the question.
I know for a fact that my upline’s organization (not TEAM but very recently became affiliated with TEAM, we were under Yager’s InterNET Services tool system) promoted 300 PV circles. Some people pulled it off, most were Platinums and above. Very rarely did anyone under Platinum get recognized for 300 PV on a consistant basis. My wife & I got recognized a couple of times but I will admit 200-230PV was personal and the rest was sold below suggested retail. I would not be shocked if those Platinums+ that qualified were consuming the majority of the 300PV as they could afford to spend that monthly. My family loved the products and could do 300 PV personally BUT we can’t afford to spend that much money.
1000PV circle on a consistant basis is EXTREMELY rare with basic coreline products (Ribbon being an exception, some people have great businesses selling Ribbon to companies…everyone can’t duplicate this though).
Please enlighten us on your retailing ability Craig.
September 13th, 2007 at 12:08 am
That “market forces” thing is a real clue. Keep watching that. The plaintiffs are going to have to prove that the pricing kept them from earning their incomes. They will have to show that the soap, and other goods (Peter Island Suntan Lotion, et al) are so overpriced that no one would buy them. Good luck. Watch the “market forces”line.
As for the civil war idea in #10, this is more like a scorched earth scenario. Again, the plaintiffs have declared that I run an illegal business. I have already approached someone who has told me they would not talk to me because they read that I am in “a pyramid”. I consider that the plaintiffs have spead that slander. I believe that A/Q has the goods to show malice aforethought. (We walked in with a lawsuit in-hand. Don’t you know that shows “good faith?”)
If the plaintiffs don’t prevail ( the California court they are in is the US Federal District Court( if I understand the stuff from the freetheibo website) and not the state court. So, if the Federal Court rules to uphold the FTC ruling from 1979 (precedent does have standing), the plaintiffs will be then liable for all the slander and smears.
Burn them, Amway……… and their PR lackeys.
September 13th, 2007 at 12:47 am
I have read the sworn affidavits of the team guys and if their side of the story is true, their meeting was doomed before it started.
The team guys walked in with a list of demands for what they thought would be a favorable departure. Quixtar had a list of things that they felt the team guys must change or amend.
I believe that the statements in the affidavits are true. If they are; there is nothing in them that says the team guys were willing to negotiate other than a release on their terms.
It doesn’t surprise me that this happened. Did they walked in and say we don’t want to change anything and all we are willing to negotiate is a separation? From what I read, Quixtar wanted to negotiate terms on how to keep the team guys working with Quixtar. There were two different intentions by the parties and its not surprising that the meeting ended quickly.
It appears the team guys had the lawsuit in their pocket; just in case they didn’t get their way. They didn’t get their way and now we have a lawsuit that says this whole business model is an illegal pyramid?
This lawsuit is a stretch and I believe we are going to see a whole lot more on what was really going on behind the team curtain before this is over.
I’m not going to pass judgment on anyone but I believe that court cases are going to bring a lot of light to bear on what was really going on. I think this is going to be years not months before this is ends and the only ones who will win anything at all are the attorneys.
September 13th, 2007 at 1:26 am
“Doesn’t look like something we can easily work out over a cup of coffee anymore”…….Quixtar here’s your sign.
September 13th, 2007 at 1:52 am
#32 continued..Perhaps I should repeat what I suggested a month ago: Allow all IBOs, in an LOS to have the same choice that we had in 1999. Renew in the new direction Quixtar becoming Amway, or stay in the Quixtar that existed in June of this year. If the corporation really can solve the PR for the Amway name that they claim in US and Canada, IBOs will choose Amway, just like they choose Quixtar in 1999.
Quixtar can not inore the IBOAI like they have done since June and before. Jody Victor for decades has told any LOS that had him speak that the coporation could not change the rules without the IBOAI agreeing. It has been shown that that no longer applies. That has to be fixed.
The 3rd thing to do is allow all terminated IBOs, or those resigning since August 9th, to come back, same upline/downline, providing they drop any lawsuits. This would have to include allowing TEAM to be an approved BSM provider, along with allowing Team system. You need to toss the “staking” rule sent out in July and have Team change a couple of things, like not requiring BSM or products when signing up. They had already made sure that no one would be “stacked”. See TEAM sign up packet that was in use in July.
4th, Pricing needs to be worked on futher, and not just the token things. Nutilite did that with Daily vitamins. Quixtar needs to do that with everything, starting with the most popular items, including DoubleX, SA8, XS, etc…
5th, Simply Nutrilite can not be an open ordering website. They need an IBO number to order, or run them through the process of getting one just like Quixtar.com has for 8 years. I know you will asign one for Simply Nutrilite customers without an IBO, but the whole site, and all the posts from Alticor, lets the IBOs think you don’t need us anymore.
This fight should never have started. Mistakes were made of both sides, but Alticor has been so mean and prideful in their moves that they need to fix this now. You have one week. I, for one hope you don’t loose the LA lawsuit as Amway and Quixtar will either be finished in the US or the Court will require you to do what I have just posted just to survive.
Both sides have been acting Junior high. Perhaps if Alticor/Quixtar had not been acting like a bunch of bullies, Orin and Chris wouldn’t have acted like tatle-tale go to the press whiners. You really didn’t give them a choice. They hoped they had enough protection, you didn’t think they would do it, and they called your bluff. Can you say stupid?
That being said, the person that writes the press releases for Alticor, this one and the ones since Go Team Go, should have already been fired. Corporate Communications is a disgrace for all IBOs and employees.
September 13th, 2007 at 2:42 am
Richard
Clueless: One not having a clue !!!
September 13th, 2007 at 5:14 am
JT#9- I just read the documents that you claim to support Quixtar. Other than this being an after the fact termination substantiation document this proves nothing! As a matter of fact, it makes very few references to the Team! Much of that document consists of interactions that Quixtar ALLOWED IBO’s to do using Quixtars customer service! If they were illegal activities, or even rule violations, then why did Quixtar make those changes??? JT if your going to trumpet the cause of Quixtar at least use the right horn!
September 13th, 2007 at 5:17 am
Quixtar needs to settle this thing out of court fast! This is a huge black eye for every organization! Set them free and let the transformation begin!
September 13th, 2007 at 7:06 am
I suspect that the court may choose to limit this to a narrow ruling of contract law, in which Q/A has a huge advantage, rather than allowing the whole issue of prices, ? pyramid, etc. standing; in view of the fact that the FTC 1)has ruled, in 1979, and 2)is planning another ruling to clarify the regs.
If, however, they decide to consider all the stuff TEAM wants them to, I think A/Q still has a huge advantage and can easily defend. I’m actually stoked at the possibility that we’ll come out of this with a brand spanking shiny new affirmation by a federal court in California of all places that our business is legitimate. Think you could shout THAT from the rooftops?
September 13th, 2007 at 7:34 am
Richard, the Plaintiff’s aren’t claiming YOU are running an illegal business (unless of course you are Richard DeVos!).
They’re claiming Amway is an illegal pyramid and YOU are stuck in it. If you don’t think you are, good for you! Things must be going well with your QBOB pamphlet.
By the way, I haven’t heard how QBOB is doing out in the marketplace. To all those who love Amway and think they’re business is going to “explode” (a.k.a. implode) with the name change, how’s the response in the market? Getting a lot of people excited to become part of AMWAY?
Down the road you’ll be thanking Woodward’s and Brady’s for paving a new road!
September 13th, 2007 at 7:43 am
Richard # 36
“That “market forces” thing is a real clue. Keep watching that. The plaintiffs are going to have to prove that the pricing kept them from earning their incomes.”
I don’t think so, I think the plaintiffs just have to prove that this business is good even for the new person getting in. That the new person can get 10 RETAIL customers. And retail means you actually make dollars off of the product, which is extremely hard since they’re already sky high.
I’m even embarressed to charge the IBO price to my friends. I just tell them, hey, I know it’s high, but that’s my price and I’m not making anything on it.
September 13th, 2007 at 9:39 am
“Market Forces” = Compitition = How can you have a non compete agreement and have to deal with market forces. So watch that market forces line. I am glad I will never have to say ” well it is a sister company and we do have some of the same products as Amway ” When they ask “Is it amway?” You that stay now have to say yes (and goodbye) but I can say no and mean it “WE ARE TEAM”
September 13th, 2007 at 9:43 am
‘The future of the Quixtar business, he said, may be “largely a question of market forces”—how well we are able to compete with other companies. Fair enough.’
Competing with the name Quixtar may have been possible… but when things change back to Amway… watch the power of “name recognition”.
Let’s see… Satan, Hitler, Amway. Yes, I think most people would say they are familiar with those names.
Good luck Alticorp!
September 13th, 2007 at 9:56 am
Richard
Are you honestly saying this is the first time someone accused you of running a pyramid? Dude, you are daft!! My whole problem in my business building was when people asked if this was Amway, enough said.
September 13th, 2007 at 10:10 am
#6
“If the Quixtar opportunity is so good, you shouldn’t have to keep people in by contract…they should want to stay in.”
Enough said.
By the way, does the 13th amendment not mean anything anymore? What about the Emancipation Proclamation?
September 13th, 2007 at 10:13 am
P.S.
Good Riddance Amway. You’ll choke on your own name when it goes public.
September 13th, 2007 at 10:16 am
It’s funny you guys talk about the TEAM slandering but what about the threats made to all TEAM members if they didn’t quit TEAM then they would not have their IBO numbers anymore? Looks like TEAM didn’t need Quixtar anymore seeing as though so many resigned. I find it funny everything you guys complain about that the TEAM is doing, you are doing the exact same. Slandering and so on. Even post #20 there’s even some profound language. That’s REALLY professional (sarcastic). Seriously if Quixtar/Amway is going to be doing so great without TEAM, then why all this mess? It would’ve been so much easier if Quixtar/Amway just let TEAM go their seperate ways. It’s like a break-up. Both people just want to be happy. I believe Orrin and Chris are looking out for their people, and that’s why so many others followed. Look at all the resignations, why would people do that if they didn’t believe they were follow a TRUE leader?
September 13th, 2007 at 10:21 am
I read “exhibit 1″ - the conceptual proposal by TEAM.
If i was Q/A and i received that, i would be pissed! If you are not sharp enough to understand that the letter was blackmail, then you don’t have a clue.
TEAM followers think that TEAM is equal to Quixtar. TEAM does not own a mlm Corporation, they are distributors that thought more highly of themselves than reality.
TEAM
- the lowest customer sales
- the lowest income for platinums
- the most hiding of Quixtar name and misrepresentation of Quixtar relationship
- the most complaints to Quixtar
Winters Team went from about 7,000 in 2002 to over 17,000 in 2006 ….. without the “Team Approach”
September 13th, 2007 at 10:29 am
Hey Alticor fans - let’s hear some of your real life stories of showing the plan to people since the Sept. 1st change to include QBOB in your presentation. How have people been responding to your AMWAY presentation? Havin’ fun yet????
I haven’t heard anything from any of the pro-Amway people. I’m guessing most prospects run away so fast after hearing the word Amway, or these people haven’t successfully booked an appointment yet.
How exactly do you answer the question when someone says “Is this Amway”? Do you say, “well, uh, hmmm, well, kinda, sorta, but, but, but….. then you hear the dial tone on the other end????
September 13th, 2007 at 10:59 am
60 days or 6 months the out come will be the same… The Alticor/Quixtar/Amway Corporation(s) will crumble into history fast and furious. In history when someone was going to be executed they were always offered a blindfold, it is obvious that the legal team for Quixtar has already placed one on Mr. DeVos and Mr. Van Andel long ago. They (Mr. DeVos and Mr. Van Andel) should remove their blindfolds and see who really is destroying the corporation (it isn’t TEAM). Mr. DeVos and Mr. Van Andel, you know the old saying, “it isn’t over until the fat lady sings” well she is about to finish warming up and start singing the TEAM victory song!
Truly
Exceptional
And
More
September 13th, 2007 at 10:59 am
Check out Dilbert’s take on TEAM!
http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2007203690913.gif
September 13th, 2007 at 11:12 am
After four years of trying to build a business “powered by Quixtar”, I have officially resigned my Founder’s Platinum Quixtar/Amway business.
I will continue to subscribe to the Leadership Development materials that TEAM has to offer, it is after all their contribution to my life that has made me a better man, husband, father, business owner and minister- NOT PRODUCTS!
Orrin Woodward, Chris Brady and the other leaders on the TEAM have repeatedly proven, through ACTIONS, that they are men of integrity and worthy of being followed.
I can honestly say that I have made more money as a consultant, teacher, and minister applying the teachings of TEAM than I made as a Quixtar IBO. Leadership and franchise principals are transferable regardless of the opportunity.
God speed TEAM leadership!!!
September 13th, 2007 at 11:25 am
Why don’t you state what really happened? Quixtar wasn’t prepared yesterday PERIOD. Q lawyers said they wanted all the IBO’s to arbitrate… Judge said NO. And he gave your lawyers another week to prepare! Q doesn’t get it’s way this time! It’s a point for TEAM! This is going to court, and won’t be arbitrated! HUGE SCORE!!!!
“Sure did sound like a group of people determined to destroy the Quixtar business opportunity.” …. Well, actually, the group is the families! Their outrageous 35% profit margin is what’s destroying the business. So, there is some truth to this post. But the cup of coffee?? that’s just laughable!
September 13th, 2007 at 12:17 pm
@38 & 46 — I’m not mistaken. Artistry, XS, Nutrilite are all easy to retail. Combine them with Ditto Delivery, add a few new ditto customers each month (it takes work? Oh my!), piece of cake. Please don’t patronize me.
Particularly when you have support from world-class athletes. Have you seen today’s press release? (http://teamnutrilite.opportunityzone.com/2007/09/13/Asafa–New-Global-Press-Release.aspx)
@45 — I seriously doubt my site violates any rules. If it does, I’m happy to have it corrected once I’m notified by the *proper* authorities. Since I freely use it in all my comment postings at Opportunity Zone (I hate anonymity in business, don’t you?), I’m guessing at least one person at Alticor/Quixtar has taken a peek and I haven’t gotten a complaint yet.
@57 — Non-competes are so commonly used, that if you haven’t been a party to one previously I’d be really surprised. They’re used to protect a company’s investment in your relationship with them, as well as to protect the company against predatory practices from parties who leave under less-than-honorable circumstances.
September 13th, 2007 at 12:17 pm
#33 Craig Eddy.
I would be careful, I checked out your link “http://www.empactcommerce.com/” and your site has alot of good Quixtar/Amway products, but no mention of “Powered by Quixtar/Amway”. In fact, I see many references to “our Nutrilite” and “our Products”. You are doing nothing different from what TEAM has been accused of, hiding the fact that your business is powered by Quixtar.
Shame on you and watch out in the future. Q/A Rules auditors will be calling.
September 13th, 2007 at 1:59 pm
jt#9 maybe you could point out where on those pages it is supporing Quixtar…I think you are confused.
September 13th, 2007 at 2:00 pm
What does it mean when so many IBO’s from Emeralds to Double Diamonds say publicly that the Alticor/Amway/Quixtar business is no good and want out?
September 13th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
The latest news release from freetheibo propaganda site.
September 12, 2007
Pyramid Scheme Lawsuit Against Quixtar Will Continue
“Everyday in court is a big win for the IBOs,” said D.J. Poyfair, attorney
for Denver-based Shughart, Thomson & Kilroy, the firm representing the IBOs.
“The more documents and information that becomes public about how Quixtar
operates the better it is for my clients….”
JT take on it:
This is spin at best, insult in reality.
TEAM lawyers do not represent Quixtar IBOs. Their objective is to destroy Quixtar IBOs.
TEAM wants to use their manipulation machine to steal from Amways network of 3 million global ibos.
Quixtar attorneys are representing the IBOS.
All of the TEAM plaintiffs are not IBOS.
TEAMs messages consist of “a skin of a reason, wrapped around a lie”
September 13th, 2007 at 2:18 pm
WAIT FOR THE NEXT 18 MONTHS!!!!
WHY DON’T SAY THE TRUTH!!!
I KNOW AMWAY/QUIXTAR BEACAUSE MY DAD IS (RUBY)WHEN I WAS 16 NOW I GOT 28 I WAS LOYAL TO THIS COMPANY,BUT YOU ARE NOT A FRIEND YOU WANT TO DESTROY FAMYLIES,LET’EM GO………KEEP THE WORD TO PROTECT THE IBO’S….INTEGRITY
September 13th, 2007 at 2:20 pm
NEXT 19 SEP IN CALIFORNIA..ROUND 2
TEAM 1 — QUIXTAR/AMWAY 0
September 13th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
70chris
exhibit 1 - TEAMs “Let us out and there won’t be any trouble” proposal (threat)
exhibit 2 - August 9 Letter from Q/A General Counsel Mohr - After Q/A realized that TEAM didn’t want to change their “Team Approach”, and handed Q/A the proposal, Q/A left the room for a couple hours, when they came back handed TEAM ibos the Letter (exhibit 2). Then in the parking lot was TEAM’s lawyer with the lawsuit that TEAM had prepared before the Aug9 meeting in case TEAM demands were not met.
Now the only way i currently can perceive a TEAM ibo not believe that these exhibits favor Q/A is if they do not understand the mlm industry. Quixtar/Amway is NOT TEAMS business. TEAM ibos are distributors. TEAM has no right to tell A/Q how to run their business.
The simple/right thing for TEAM to do, was to leave quietly.
September 13th, 2007 at 3:22 pm
71 AEM Says:
September 13th, 2007 at 2:00 pm
What does it mean when so many IBO’s from Emeralds to Double Diamonds say publicly that the Alticor/Amway/Quixtar business is no good and want out?
____
JT says: It says that these ibos got caught for making their amway iboships an embarassment to Alticor and the rest of the Amway/Q ibos.
It says that Q/A decided to clean up their business and poor ibo practices that hurt Amways reputation.
It says that TEAM was the poster child of all the things Amway wanted to clean up: hide Q/A names, stacking, soliciting crossline ibos for their Tool system, internet advertising manipulation…. go to my site or read the court docs for info.
They wanted out b/c they didn’t want to change their TEAM Approach and believed they could not build Amway by the rules.
All they had to do was resign their iboships…. do a google search on “non-compete quixtar team orrin” and read the 12 reasons why TEAM should not be allowed to break the non-compete that they signed, agreed to, supported, and some even enforced as IBOAI leaders.
September 13th, 2007 at 3:41 pm
Ignore the cool jets. Listen to Rich Devos from the 1970’s. Gives a good perspective that we need to get back to.
http://qreilly.blogspot.com/2007/09/putting-pieces-together.html
September 13th, 2007 at 3:44 pm
Hey! How come the people in the UK got what the team wants? They are launching a “NEW Amway” in the UK, and because of this, all of their current distributors are being allowed out of their contracts if they desire. Go here:
http://qreilly.blogspot.com/2007/09/amway-uk-and-ireland-battling-for-their.html
September 13th, 2007 at 3:49 pm
So far out of about 26 votes at orrinwoodward blogspot, about 90% think the Court will say that Quixtar is Legal Business.
Quixtar/Amway have been the STANDARD that the FTC has used for about 30 years to decided if a buiness is legal or not. I expect this ruling (or if it leader to a higher court ruling) to declare the same verdict for the next 30 years.
September 13th, 2007 at 4:05 pm
Jthompson
You take the cake on this one!! Your statements do not make any sense!! One, we don’t want to “take” anybody, don’t you get it? We want any and all of TEAM IBO’s have a choice!! If anyone that was on my team elected to stay with QuiAmxtarway after we would be allowed to leave I would wish them the very best!! And I believe I speak for all of TEAM on that. However, for what I am seeing, this would not happen because we all all resigning in droves. You need to get your head out of your butt and see the daylight. There is no spin, no other motive, we just want to be free. See, we belong to TEAM, not Quixtar. When you go to the mall and buy something, does the mall demand you let everyone know where you got it? Why would Quixtar care that they were not the forefront of our business. Ego. Well, there ego may cost them their industry. Seeeeeeeeeeyaaaaaaaa!!
September 13th, 2007 at 4:10 pm
To the Administrator:
I know this is a free-for-all blog, but please. Clean up the language and slang. Reference jthompson #62, line 2 and Platinum #36, what I call “second hand cussin;”
May I add, “Let the cause be greater than the controversy!” Go TEAM.
September 13th, 2007 at 4:21 pm
Craig;
Nice website!!! I had an IBO try to sell those same products on his site, and Quixtar Legal got ahold of him and myself. Threatend him if he didn’t remove those products within two days he could be terminated. Maybe “Q” will start looking more closely into how, if any retail sales are generated.
September 13th, 2007 at 4:30 pm
First of all - pricing . . . Utah mentioned that price point items need to be developed, and that may be true (Daily for example is more of a price point item compared to XX), but I, as well as my entire family and many of my friends, prefer the higher quality products. Our Nutrilite XX are pharmacutical grade vitamins. Ask a pregnant woman how much her pharmacutical grade pre-natal vitamins cost. They tend to up upwards of $80, more than XX retails for.
I can’t imagine anyone thinking SA8 or LOC is too expensive — the stuff lasts forever, (and LOC does everything - heck, I grew even using it for bubble baths) and I still know customers (that’s right - not IBOs) who are on low fixed incomes that order those products on a regular basis).
Also, just off the top of my head - I recently started buying Nutripet Dog Food for my dog because it is so much less expensive and for all the research I’ve done (talking to the company, and checking with several vets), it seems to be as good or better than the brand I bought from PetsMart. My previous dog food was about $12 for 3 lbs or $4/lb; Nutripet is only $25 (retail) for 2 8lb bags or $1.56/lb, and that’s not even taking into consideration that she doesn’t need to eat as much of the Nutripet each day. Also, I’m currently addicted to our strawberry & raspberry preserves which are much less expensive than the preserves I had been buying, and the other brand had sugar in it (ours uses juice to sweeten). XS is the same price as Red Bull, and I’ve never met a single person who prefers Red Bull’s taste. If people are asking for price point (cheaper) items, that’s great, but some of us like the quality products.
Last, but not least, I am not now, nor ever have been ashamed of the Amway name and what it stands for. I know that in all industries, there are going to be people who are unethical, but all in all, I’m proud of Amway/Quixtar for upholding our standards. Many members of my family have been IBOs of Amway & Quixtar for decades and I have never so much as flinched if someone asks the, “Is it Amway?” question. In fact, even since the creation of Quixtar, I usually explain to prospective IBOs & customers that this is part of Amway before they even ask. As shocking as this may sound, even people who have no desire to become IBOs frequently link the term “Amway” with the great products they (or their parents) use (or used growing up). I suppose I really don’t see what the big deal is in “admitting” this is Amway.
September 13th, 2007 at 4:42 pm
The post on #67 is right on the money. For those of you wanting real perspective on what’s been happening since 2005 between Orrin and Q, read Orrin’s letter to Doug Devos sent six months into his IBOA membership in 2005. It, not only clarifies intentions, but wait till you see the statistics that were released in that board meeting about how we were doing six months after the launch of 1999. The letter can be read here.
September 13th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
@60: “you shouldn’t have to keep people in by contract” — please point to where in the rules & regs you’re FORCED to stay in the business. I haven’t seen that one.
I did re-read rule 6.5 this morning just to re-familiarize myself with the non-compete clauses, none of which are onerous and they’re even more lenient than I would have written.
September 13th, 2007 at 5:25 pm
I haven’t been on here in a while but it sounds like most of you are stuck. Get unglued from your computer. We are in the middle of a rebellion - the beginning of a revolution - those of you who don’t see it yet need to get Orrin and Chris’ book. Or at least read Kiyosaki’s Cashflow Quadrant because anyone not on board with TEAM is just an “E” or an “S” at best…As Kiyosaki says, “where is my paycheck sir.” (WIMP). Take the emotion out of it and create your legacy now. TEAM will take you in…they took us in! God Bless.
September 13th, 2007 at 5:29 pm
Just a thought but from what I have read all these IBO’s are/have or soon to resign their businesses. They plan to quit no matter what happens in court. My concern is for all IBO’s that stay. Is it not in our interests to just let them go? If they have to wait SIX months to be able to do anything else out there in the world then what do you think they will be doing for those six months. All we need is for 10’s of thousands of ex-IBO’s sitting at home making new blogs and videos that will hurt all the remaining IBO’s. Just let them go and lets continue doing what we do. Think of the remaining IBO’s not the ones that are already gone !!!!
September 13th, 2007 at 5:42 pm
#71 AEM:
It says that they either wasted a lot of their own time with a business that is “no good” (and are now wasting everyone else’s) or that they are mindless followers following “twue leadership”.
Yawn.
September 13th, 2007 at 5:46 pm
72 JT which of the planiffs are not IBO’s?
September 13th, 2007 at 5:53 pm
sorry, jt…but you are wrong about one thing. (did I just say ONE ? whoops…guess I’ve run out of Q’s miracle brain food …should’ve said ALL things )
anyway, this is one IBO who the TEAM attorneys ARE representing. and I can promise you that the IBOAI …ELECTED to represent me have done a crappy job…could I please have my $9 back ?!
and Q has NEVER represented me in anything…not from day 1…nada, nyet, nope, nein… however many ways there are to say no..that’s how many Team are going to use in referring to Q’s representation of us.
oh yeah, maybe someone could get jt some accurate info…he’s still posting that we have a 1 year non compete….and whoops…wrong again !
September 13th, 2007 at 5:54 pm
Craig Eddy:
“I’m guessing at least one person at Alticor/Quixtar has taken a peek and I haven’t gotten a complaint yet.”
History shows that as long as you don’t disagree with anything the Amway says, they will look the other way. I’m sure your site is just fine with Quixtar until they decide to invent reasons why it isn’t after you become very successful with it.
Regarding the non-compete: “They’re used to protect a company’s investment in your relationship with them,”
What about protecting my investment with this company? It’s been determined that the IBOAI is powerless. I built my team which reluctantly bought products from Q. Quixtar did not invest anything in me. It was the other way around. They made plenty of money off of me and my team. When I apply the Jay Factor to my team’s spending over the last year alone….what a rip!
September 13th, 2007 at 5:56 pm
JT,
guess I should have said EX IBO…I resigned yesterday, as have thousands of us…wonder who’ll buy all that XS now ? better hope your Dec date rolls around quick, so you can rush back in to retail it ! at $2 for 8oz….please .
September 13th, 2007 at 6:36 pm
Moderator, if you’ll forgive me for copying and reposting someone else’s comment, I think it’s appropriate. The upline that Neil references — John Crowe — is as I understand it in the same general group or ’system’ that originally sponsored Orrin Woodward and “grew him up” to at least the Emerald level. And they are still growing Emeralds, by the looks of it. Some perspective for those who are interested (”Let those who have ears, hear.”):
http://adatudes.opportunityzone.com/2007/08/14/Stacking-vs-DepthBuilding.aspx#10398
Neil Joseph said:
September 13, 2007 12:12 PM | #
You know its interesting reading all of these comments. Its amazing how so many people are blaming Quixtar or blaming their LOS or even their association for their failure in “their business”. I became an IBO 7 months ago and in August I reached the 7500 Silver level. In about 12 months I should be a new Emerald. You know why? Because this is “my” business. My success and failure depends on me. I have to go out there and do the work. I have to evaluate what is best for my business. Too many IBOs believe that they are in some type of “clan” or “group”. When are IBOs going to learn that they are an INDEPENDENT BUSINESS OWNER. Too many times we depend on an upline to spoon feed us like a child. If its one thing I learned from my upline Founders Double Diamond John Crowe is that this is a business about helping people. The more people you genuinely help the more you eventually make. Too many IBOs come into the business thinking otherwise. How do you think you make money? You sponsor some people and “hope” they do well? C’mon, the reason I went Silver is a short space of time is because I helped several persons become 1000s - 2500s in a shorter space of time. I taught them and they learnt not to make the same mistakes as me and my uplines. So they saw success faster. I suggest that everyone read a book about helping people and how to be concerned about the welfare of people. Those who get plugged into that thought process will not have to hang out on blogs complaining about their failure in this business.
September 13th, 2007 at 7:26 pm
Funny who wants a cup of coffee now! For those of you who are confused, Orrin WANTED to work with Quixtar–he wanted lower prices so we COULD retail products. The founding families are so hooked on their bloated profits, they couldn’t see basic economic truth–if they lowered some prices, they would sell more products, and then get MORE profits.
I won’t even debate what really happened in the meeting on Aug 9th; we can all read the statements from those who were there. What I really object to are the intimidating emails to IBOs implying they could be breaking some kind of law, and then more emails telling them all TEAM tools and functions are illegal. Add to that phone calls to people in MY team stating that Quixtar will find them new uplines. (No one has informed me of any rules violations in my own business, so is it because I happen to be in Orrin’s team?)
And they wonder why they have been hit with a slew of requests for restraining orders.
Get us where it hurts. Trying to recover my Quixtar business would be futile at best. But it’s not enough that they cut off my source of income, I can’t replace it for six months!
Read your Rules of Conduct, folks. We are all held hostage. The “6-month” non-compete can go on forever, if you aren’t careful. Rule 6.5.1. says “Compete” means not only to own, manage, operate, be employed by, consult for, or participate an an independent distributor in any other direct sales program (any other MLM), but includes ANY company that sells ANY products that compete with Quixtar.
So what’s left? I know, I could work for an attorney somewhere!
Keep reading those rules. Rule 6.5.8. very generously states that I can be employed by anyone who is not an IBO. (As long as the work is not for anyone or anything that could be construed as a product similar to any offered by Quixtar.) Pretty big of them, huh?
It gets better. But I won’t bore you.
Just try to leave. Just try.
September 13th, 2007 at 8:00 pm
#50
you hit it right on the head i am absoulutly amazied at the CHILDISH press releases from the corporation so much so that i am sending my resignation as soo as i am done typing this
September 13th, 2007 at 8:06 pm
if you step back to a 30,000 foot view of what is going on ……the corporation is tired of doing anything but manfactering product. they have found in other countries that they can sell retail and keep all the profit charging more then 30% markup on everything and not have to share with any ibo’s.
everyone needs to get a clue though they aint going anywhere because of the large biz oversea’s (which by the way doesn’t have the same pay scale so they are keeping even more of the profit) and the corporation will just set up a site and see if there are old ibos that will purchase cause they liked the product how many times have we all rean into someon that says “i dont want anything to do with the biz but cant you get me some of the shoe shine the used to have” (shoe shine just a silly example)
September 13th, 2007 at 8:23 pm
#72 jthompson
“TEAM lawyers do not represent Quixtar IBOs. Their objective is to destroy Quixtar IBOs.”
I went to a Quixtar Open years ago and did not join quixtar. I went to a TEAM open 4 years ago and saw something completely different. I joined the TEAM and the people. Just because Quixtar manufactures, distributes products with infrastructure doesn’t give them the right of ownership of people. Plus if Sam Walton, Kreskes, Ray Kroke, etc. can build infrastructure so can other people.No matter if the non-compete is a month or six months whatever happens the rocket will be launched. It just means the countdown has started. By the way Quixtar Attorney’s represent the corporation not the IBO’s. The IBO board represented the IBO’s Look at what happened to them. Month to month contract for the board means a tiger with no teeth.
September 13th, 2007 at 8:44 pm
Team, win or lose will be gone…. now or in 6 months. It doesn’t matter. Q/A is in a lose/lose situation.
Many members of the IBOAI board knew that with a couple changes, Q/A could have become the Wal-mart of the internet. I know it makes you cringe, but Q/A has struggled to stay over 1 billion and Wal-mart does how many billions? Its the cater to the classes and live with the masses or cater to the masses and live with the classes thing.
We recently joined up with Team and I am extremely thankful that we did. Team or no, with the transformation announcement, the result is the same.
The IBOAI board that is in place to protect my
business is a paper tiger and a figurehead.
Trying to market products that the majority of IBO’s won’t even buy for their own use because of price.
The threat of being terminated because of philosophical differences after committing a huge portion of ones life to creating a business. (When will it be you?)
Stick a fork in me…. I’m done. I can’t in good concience represent this business anymore.
Resignation sent on 9/11. Appropriate, eh?
September 13th, 2007 at 8:53 pm
See, my point is that I have my 10 customers…
And they aren’t IBOs.
Has the TEAM unveiled what they plan to sell besides motivational CDs and DVDs? I haven’t heard of any movement in that arena.
September 13th, 2007 at 8:54 pm
Gladiator: We’re looking into the matter. Thank you for your patience.
rdknyvr: We’d prefer not to repost comments like that, but in your case we’ll allow it, as the link actually doesn’t go right to the comment itself. We’ll let the OZ team know about the link issue. Thank you.
September 13th, 2007 at 9:49 pm
I believe in Amway.
I don’t believe in their pricing structure.
I don’t have confidence they will do what is best for IBOs.
I don’t believe they will listen to a legitimate IBOAI. I believe that it serves their best interest to have an IBOAI that is a puppet regime that exists only to give legitimacy to their control
I don’t blame a person or persons there…sometimes things take on a life of their own. Some of the legal challenges they have faced may have put the wrong people in charge of decisions - people who are not out facing a public that has a negative perception of Amway. I didn’t get into Quixtar because I wanted to convince people that Amway was good. I got in it to make money. Now - the potential return on what it will cost to succeed is not worth the investment of my time, money, or influence.
Anything can be proved by example, so please don’t waste people’s time by quoting someone you know who has made a little doing everything by the Amway book, unless you are a diamond who has done that and have an organization under you who all do that.
There are some who believe that Amway is God and TEAM is the devil. Their are some who believe that the lawsuit is the Declaration of Independence and Amway is England. Who knows all the facts? (Although JT may.
Now he’s started blog. If he ever becomes an IBO he may have to have it registered with Amway, otherwise it might constitute illegal tools.)
Anyway, I’m taking Tex’s advice: “Just go.” I’M RESIGNING AS AN IBO THIS WEEK. I’ll wait six months and see where things go. I’ll never sell Amway. It’s not worth the time, effort, and money.
Once I resign, I will never post here again. If I’m not an IBO, I don’t believe it is my place to express an opinion. I also will not make putting down Amway my life mission. People who create websites just to run down someone else, usually end up hurt by what it does to them as a person. There is no such thing as leadership by criticism. I will not sit in the seat of the scornful.
I apologize if I have misjudged Amway in my analysis, I wish them the best. I wish the TEAM the best.
I hope you all experience God’s blessings as you bless your enemies.
Rico
September 13th, 2007 at 10:19 pm
#98 timeandmoney:
Philisophical differences? Are you kidding me? There is nothing philisophical about repeatedly being told that you are breaking the rules, putting the company at risk and refusing to correct issues. That’s pure defiance. Nothing more.
#99 Richard:
Thanks for pointing that out.
Instead of competing w/Q, TEAM will be competing w/Oprah’s Book-Of-The-Month Club.
Good luck w/that.
September 13th, 2007 at 10:55 pm
#99 Richard,
First of all I want to sincerely congratulate you on your 10 customers. I really hope they do stick around. Secondly, I don’t believe it is any of your concern what TEAM is doing considering you want to sell rather than develop.
jthompson
My husband and I have turned people down from signing up as customers because we feel we would be robbing them blind. Our purpose has been to help others succeed. I can’t in good conscience sell items that are three times the cost of Wal-Mart.
How are you going to persuade the single mom, who is currently paying $0.28 for Pampers, to increase her pay in the Amway specimen collectors to $0.50 per diaper. How is this helping anyone?
Rule 4.1 is “Good Faith and Fair Dealing” in the Q/A rules. How is three times the cost of Wal-Mart products for all the Amway customer that you will be required to sell to fair dealing? I think whoever created the Quixtar prices should be terminated themselves!
Or maybe Quixtar should be terminated for under Rule 4.1 for forcing people to renew into the Amway business from Quixtar if they want to keep their business. Sure, that sounds like fair dealing to me. I know all of you under that umbrella will need more than good faith to survive.
Lastly, there are other mlms who have recently been shut down for significantly more than 3% sales to customers. Quixtar has 3% sales to outside customers. I’ll let you do the math. I guess that is where you will be pushed to sell so you can cover the hide. You can have that job. I’ll continue working my passive income leadership development business so I can get rid of my job. At the end of life, I surely am not going to wish I had sold more SA8 to people! I am going to wish I had helped more people get free due to a “B” type business so that they can focus on the things in life that really matter.
September 13th, 2007 at 11:42 pm
85. Craid Eddy
1000pv is great
the question is RETAIL PROFIT not PV
How much retail $ profit was made or was it sold at ibo cost? thanks.
September 14th, 2007 at 1:06 am
Seems like the “haters” are running out of comments to keep their position. Lets not cloud things with meaningless chatter.
1.Jay Factor = Cost to manufacture X 3 = wholesale IBO cost=Reason for the 3.4% figure. (Yes..we’ve all been paying this)
2.IBOAI board = Powerless (So much for IBO representaion)
3.The “NEW AMWAY” = Lawyer decision (Glad you checked with the IBOAI on this one)
4. 20,000 + IBO’s = Resigning (What must be done, will be done)
5.Alticor’s deception = Uncovered (An obstacle to be removed)
I’ll stop here.
PS. New “IBO’s”.. I’m sorry.
TEAM “MEMBERS”.. Just a bump in the road.
September 14th, 2007 at 1:18 am
Anyone read my blog about non-compete contracts?
All these comments sound great “i saw Q business but did not get in… but later i saw TEAM and wanted to be part of it….”
Sorry, you got into a Quixtar mlm company, no matter what TEAM told you. You signed Quixtar distributor contacts, if you are a veteran, you signed it for 3 straight years.
Now if you have employee mentality and don’t ready business contracts and rules, then its your problem. Orrin and Team Leaders understand the non-compete. Read my blog comments about non-compete.
All this sounds great but if you have integrity to keep your word, you will wait for 6 months before doing another business, and wait 2 years before you add your downline.
FLIP FLOPPERS,
Before the month of August no person on the planet has heard a peep from TEAM complaining about non-competes and downing Quixtar opportunity.
I have low patience for the TEAM cult-followers, but i do respect the people who realize that Orrin… have not handled things perfectly but choose to be loyal… but i can’t stand Flip Flopers.
Elections season is getting near - have you asked Orrin yet if you are suppossed to be a Republican or Democrat? Oh yeah, if you start as a Democrat and learn they are wrong, do you sue them?
September 14th, 2007 at 5:19 am
To all those guys going on about TEAM wanting to have a cup of coffee, but being denied:
In 9# above, their is a link to a posting on Free the IBO. In it is some legal documents, prepared by a member of TEAM. It includes a document from Quixtar, and it includes an affidavit from Orrin. (Around pages 24-31)
Now do yourselves a favour and read it. I’ll give a short summary though, because I know you won’t bother. The Quixtar document (The termination letter) discloses that Quixtar had for 6 years been in discussion with TEAM to rectify several breaches of the code of conduct.
Yet another meeting was scheduled for early August, to discusss the violations. TEAM was not prepared to discuss the remedial actions, they were only prepared to discuss separation terms. According to Orrin’s affidavit.
Don’t truist me, read your upline’s affidavit on his own PR website for yourself!!
September 14th, 2007 at 9:46 am
An example of myths and lies that have been spread by Orrin Woodward, TEAM, etc…
http://www.iboaiblog.com/my_weblog/2007/08/former-iboai-di.html#comments
The comment refers to “Amway is getting rid of American ibos, going to start selling around them at stores, etc….”
This is flat out lie. TEAM Leaders and IBOAI members that have been terminated from the IBOAI DO NOT SPEAK for Amway/Quixtar.
This is how TEAM has tried to “take” Quixtar IBOS with them. Spread lies about Q/A and edify TEAM.
September 14th, 2007 at 10:49 am
Alitcor administrator, what constitutes a post that you guys would remove? I mentioned that Amway was allowing their distributors out of their contracts in the UK because the government shut Amway down over there. Did I break a rule or something?
September 14th, 2007 at 11:22 am
MojoMan: Not at all. Lots of times, we get comments in succession referencing the same external link. Your earlier comment regarding the UK situation is posted, as is our own update.
September 14th, 2007 at 11:30 am
108 - Piet
I read it. I have no more doubts. The two exhibits were submitted by TEAM, not Quixtar…
September 14th, 2007 at 11:45 am
JT -
I’m sure YOU’VE read your blog … and it’s sad you resort to simple name calling to make a point.
If I didn’t know any better, I’d swear you’re afraid others may not know your point.
Given this propensity to repeat information and invite others to come view “MY blog” that undoubtably repeats what has been repeated here and elsewhere ad nauseum, it would seem that perhaps you may be the one running for office. I think we may be aware of your platform.
If that is not the case, how about taking a break and allowing others to “weigh in” on the issues. I doubt you’re being paid by the word.
September 14th, 2007 at 11:48 am
JT,
I can’t figure you out. Are you lying? Willfully ignorant? Corporate hack? Seriously…what’s going on? It’s almost like you just want to upset people.
Mark’s resignation occurred long after the termination of TEAM. Yet it somehow is proof that TEAM was planning an MLM before termination? Additionally it is proof that TEAM was threatening Q?
At best you are twisting facts. At worst you are lying. I understand anybody who has a problem with TEAM. But I don’t understand someone lying just so that they can have a problem with TEAM.
It’s good to know, at least, that Amway agrees with TEAM…Dramaticly reduced prices! At least over seas. I guess we should have contacted DTI instead of the IBOAI board.
September 14th, 2007 at 11:48 am
Thanks admin. Once again, you guys are doing a great job, and no matter what side of the debate people are on, I can say that everyone does or at least should appreciate the work you put into these blogs. Thanks!
September 14th, 2007 at 11:56 am
Good point Mjoman #110.
http://qreilly.blogspot.com/ Go read the “UK letter without the spin”
VERY INTERESTING THAT AMWAY IS GIVING THE UK AN OPTION TO CONTINUE WITH THE “NEW”AMWAY (in October) OVER THERE OR NOT RENEW WITH THE NEW AMWAY. So WHY did the TEAM or any other IBO not wanting to go with the new North America Amway not have the choice?
DOUBLE STANDARDS????????
September 14th, 2007 at 11:57 am
please note Q’s own statement in their latest post re: difficulties in the UK
“What’s new today in the UK is that we’re announcing a whole series of positive changes taking effect in October. They include price cuts for easier retailing”
also ,as mojoman staes in #79 & #110…check out that policy they adopted for those folks
too bad they didn’t care enough to do the same for the North American IBOs
September 14th, 2007 at 11:57 am
# 94 rdknyvr - The correct LOA affiliation is Ron & Toby Hale, my friend. Someone that Mr. Woodward still edifies (as well as Dexter) in his teachings.
(oops, there I’ve gone and exposed confidential LOA information - a hex upon me!)
Of course, had I not heard that on an ISC BSM tape, I would not know that. So, maybe that places them (Dex and boys) in breach. There are sure a lot of tapes where folks edify their upline that have been distributed.
Guess we can expect that to go away in the interest of LOA affiliation confidentiality too, eh?
September 14th, 2007 at 11:59 am
Piet
As a member of Team for several years we have been constantly changing our procedures. We have always followed the rules and never wanted to be rebellious. Problem is, QuixAmtarway keeps tightening the noose. They keep changing the rules on us, demanding more, change this, don’t do that, “oh…your BSM is that good, wow, we better take control so we can get the money”. ” But TEAM, you have concerns?, What, Sorry….cant hear you”. “Say Again?, what price problems? What do you mean Quixtar is seperate than Amway?, What?…It’s in our ibo facts? Well….uh…. so what? We do what we want and you have no say…..cause WE OWN YOU!!”
You can only push so far. As someone who has personally known Orrin and Chris for several years Ican say I have never met anyone who has the characther and integrity of these two. I wonder why nobody has questioned why they keep up the fight since they are financially set for life? They are doing it for us. They are doing it for the Cause, and believe it or not, they are doing it for the future of every IBO in North America. This fight will have an effect on everyone, not just TEAM. This isn’t a fight for ego or pleasure, it is a fight for rights.
September 14th, 2007 at 12:03 pm
By the way….I resigned from Quixtar/Amway but they keep sending me emails. How can I put a stop to this? I don’t want to hear from them. I want them to go away. Take me off all your lists please. Oh….forgot, they don’t listen to us, they do whatever they want. Maybe I will have to find “other means” to get them to stop.
September 14th, 2007 at 12:17 pm
#118 Thunderstruck:
Report them as spamming you. It’s illegal.
September 14th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
Jerad114,
I am quick to correct myself when wrong.
Point out specifically my “Lies” that are on my blog, by leaving a comment, and i will correct everyone.
September 14th, 2007 at 12:41 pm
Why are there hundreds of TEAM members all over the web blogging against Q/Amway?
Why are there very few (if any) active Q/Amway IBOs bloggers on the web?
1. TEAM has no busines right now. They don’t build Quixtar, and they have not other mlm business anymore.
2. Just like TEAM ibos didn’t blog before (outside of TEAM Leaders advertising blogs) so also ACTIVE Q IBOs don’t blog.
p.s. Did Orrin remove my blog url from google?
September 14th, 2007 at 1:28 pm
84: NL Said: “Our Nutrilite XX are pharmacutical grade vitamins. Ask a pregnant woman how much her pharmacutical grade pre-natal vitamins cost. They tend to up upwards of $80, more than XX retails for.”
If true, then the FDA will be wanting to talk with Quixtar about that. My wife had to get a prescription for her natal vitamins at “pharmacutical grade”. Last time I checked they were not available over the counter.
September 14th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
JT you don’t get freedom. The company was unwilling to change for the benifit of all. So whatever the court decides even if it Goes against TEAM or for TEAM we will follow what the court says. Then when the requirements are met we will be free of Quixtar. Then the changes that Quixtar refused will be implemented and something that will benifit everyone who choses to work the new opporunitty will bring great results for families, faninances, and the country. What won’t happen is me ever promoting the Quixtar opportunitty to the people I love.
September 14th, 2007 at 2:45 pm
Well gang, I just got ahold of my new 12 page manifesto that I get to leave with my new prospects. I’m sure that the little book of etiquette and some smelling salts ought to revive the prospect after they pass out from the “Reformation”, I mean, “Transformation”. We are gonna have some reeeeal energy in 09, after we merge with the global brand. It’s going to be somewhat similar to the kind of energy a boxer experiences when being knocked to the mat for the 3rd time in a round, TKO.
At the end of the day, what possible gain could the corporation have besides expediency in financial analytics, global tax implications, hubristic pride, and legal liability domestically and internationally?
Do the DeVos’s & VanAndel’s really think that in this “bottom-up” business model, people are going to have the road less travelled made easier by the AmWay name recognition? That is nuts. Why don’t the legal and marketing crews here go work for Ford…their sales are slumping and I’m sure they’re looking for some MI folk to help revitalize the Pinto? Heck, you guys are more divisive than Lee Iacocca was when he took over Chrysler. I think he only released 25 out of 26 Senior VP’s. Looks like we are a couple Dutch boys short of all the holes in the dam.
You’ve managed to p*** off everyone!
The funny thing here is that I’m an IBO in an accredited organization and I want to believe this model works…because I believe it can make a difference in people’s lives. The most dynamic CDs our organization used were from the leaders of TEAM and others involved in the lawsuit. Also very interesting is the wealth of knowledge shared by those individuals and encapsulated in many of the primary source books they referenced…Good To Great, Built To Last, etc.
Curiously, in Good To Great, it talks about the decision making process adhered to by the great companies. Wells Fargo, case in point, passionate democratic debate. My point is…WHEN, AMWAY, WILL YOU LISTEN TO EVERY IBO THAT WANTS TO BUILD THAT YOU ARE REGRESSIVE? NO US CITIZEN WANTS TO AFFILIATE WITH AMWAY…EVER!!!
Stick to your guns on this and you are going to suffer dearly.
As for me, I love the products, but you have done a good job at undermining the people in the field.
Also love the direct retail model of some of your new acquisitions. Very classy on your part.
September 14th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
Wow.
Q/A operates at a 17% operating margin.
No wonder it’s a glorified lazy susan business model. In & Out. Kind of a repetitive theme.
Wmart has a better model…diminish margin, increase volume.
Q/A - it’s not too late to change.
Come ‘09 and you’ve the Hindenberg version 2.
September 14th, 2007 at 3:31 pm
piet & JT - regarding the termination letter that you refer to, here’s a quote from Chuck Goetschel, a former IBOAI member:
=============================================
“Orrin was terminated for standing up for the principles he believed in regarding a training system that proved to be very successful. What rules did he actually violate? Here is the scary part. When you read the termination papers, you read that he was terminated for violating two subjective rules; Rule 4.1 (failure to exercise a duty of good faith and fair dealing) and Rule 5.4 (failure to comply with the obligations of a sponsor and/or Platinum to properly train other IBOs). Also the papers describe accounts of a handful of people who were confused about their sponsor, the importance of sales, or some other topic.
Finally, the papers reference an “anticipatory rule violation.” Suddenly, it becomes clear that the Company can and will terminate at will citing personal philosophy differences (i.e., no “proper training”), holding you accountable for a downline rule violation, or even citing an “anticipatory breach” of things you haven’t even done.”
…
Knowing the threats they made to other leaders and knowing the heavy-handed behavior pattern they had taken with Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady, we knew we must go into the August 9th meeting prepared. We had great hope in Mike Mohr’s personal comment to me and Jim Payne’s email to Orrin sent July 27th both stating to “come in and we’ll discuss an amicable separation.” We prayed for a peaceful settlement, but just like a country has an army even though they do not desire war, we prepared a lawsuit in case Quixtar was not reasonable. Will Durant the historian said, “Pray for peace, but keep your powder dry.”
I spoke to both Billy Florence and Orrin about the lawsuit prior to the meeting and agreed with them that since the suit wasn’t asking for any sort of damages, but rather freedom of activity, that it was a proper piece of leverage. We felt if Quixtar would not do the right thing then we would ask the court to do the right thing and allow people a choice for reasons stated in the suit as well as such a drastic business transformation. Again, our only reason for meeting was to ensure peace on both sides and no future retaliatory lawsuits from Quixtar because many resigned.
=============================================
The entire post can be read in its entirety at http://freetheiboblog.typepad.com/quixtar/2007/09/chuck-goetschel.html
September 14th, 2007 at 4:08 pm
The over coffee offer was out long ago when you walked in and “threw” termination papers at Orrin and Chris. You must not have very qualified attorney’s either if they were not prepared for the hearing on Wednesday. Based on my past as a legal assitant you always go into any hearing prepared to try the case right then and there. You loose a lot of credibility with the judge by not doing so also. (Any attorney’s feel free to correct me if I am wrong). But that is good news for us. Oh and yes once the smog (Amway/Quixtar) is cleared the air will be a lot fresher!
September 14th, 2007 at 5:20 pm
JT#122,
I have pointed out one error in my last post. You can answer that one. I have no intention of visiting your little blog site.
Just answer the Tim Marks question here.
September 14th, 2007 at 6:05 pm
Well…they aren’t allowing us to comment on “London Calling” so you can go here for the truth on what has happened in the UK…
http://qreilly.blogspot.com/2007/09/uk-letter-without-spin.html
http://qreilly.blogspot.com/2007/09/amway-uk-and-ireland-battling-for-their.html
September 14th, 2007 at 6:06 pm
#124 Unimpressed . . . Ok, I don’t know the “rules” of blogging (this was my 1st), but I’m assuming this will not get posted if I can’t post this (I’m not sure how to “link” it). This is from the Nutrilite website under quality assurance. Nutrilite is and has always led the way in vitamins, and they’ve already dealt with the FDA (in case you missed it - they’ve been making vitamins for about half a century). No vitamin can be regulated by the FDA - they don’t regulate vitamins.
“As further evidence of our vigilance, we strive to follow the strict Good Manufacturing Practices set for the pharmaceutical industry – although “official” standards of this type have not been mandated for supplement manufacturers.
The Nutrilite Health Institute is also actively involved with standards-setting organizations, to ensure our practices and our product quality meets or exceeds the toughest regulatory standards in markets around the world.”
September 14th, 2007 at 6:13 pm
Where is it written that religion and politics must be sold along with the product? Motivation, and keeping your sales force in focus is one thing, but some of you guys have made an art form out of it [mind control]. Think about it, you look all over these boards and read post after post after post (most presumably written by people in the business) and you get a “group think” mentality. Guys, The whole market is not just active christians and extreme right wing Republicans. The system is a gigantic “turn off” for the other two thirds of the market, and that includes all prospects for the business and a large segment of potential customers. The sad part is that the corporation has been conserned about this for more than twenty years because it impeads the opportunity and slows growth. Unfortunately the system and it’s leaders have/had the corporation bent over the coffee table. Finally Amway stands up to it, and my hat’s off for that!
Price is another problem, but first and formost Amway needs to clean house and purge out some of these ultra-zealous almost fasciest like distributor “system” or what we used to call AMO’s (Amway Motivational Orginizations).
I love many of the Amway products (I used to have a customer base of something like 40 and some were buying so much I rewarded them with Amagrams just for being such good customers). I really believe a good oportunity exists here (every single one of my distributors I sponsored quit over the politics and religion bit that was crammed down our throats at meetings wwwdb), but many people don’t want to work for ministries and support the GOP. It’s analagous to working for God and the Devil at the same time. I believe strongly, that as soon as Amway can get out from under this raket masqerading as motivation and an ushering in of the second coming etc…then and only then will we see significant growth. There’s a whole other market segment out there folks, and it’s huge and diverse fwi, and it’s high time Amway adapt and meet the needs of the other segments, if they truley want to be an “Opportunity”.
September 14th, 2007 at 7:27 pm
Also . . . I would like to make sure it is clear that I am by no means recommending anyone take XX in place of prenatal vitamins or, for that matter, at all while pregnant unless you’ve discussed it with your doctor first. I personally take all of my Nutrilite vitamins to my doctor just in general.
September 14th, 2007 at 8:10 pm
ORRIN IS A SCAM.
IN THE LAS GO DIAMOND THAT TOKE PLASE IN
LOS ANGELES CA.
HE MENTION THAT HE IS GOING TO LUNCH A NEW ENERGY DRINK, ALSO MENTIONED ABOUTH HES NEW (MLM) COMPANY.
September 14th, 2007 at 8:13 pm
CTC #127, the global company I work for (28,000 employees) asks its operating units to make an 18% ROI. Is 17% good or bad at Alticor? I don’t know. Maybe it should be higher, and maybe there are other inefficiencies that could be wrung out of the process in order to have the option of adjusting some of the prices.
And why is Walmart always the standard to compare to? Why not Target, which has a better range of low to high value products, and a better ROI than Walmart? And a growing market share?
I think a lot of people currently tripping over themeselves to get out the door are going to develop a bad rash in a few months when they realize what Steve Lieberman was hired to do — bring in an effect set of “benchmark” retail-competitive everyday products that will help Alticor companies capture a bigger “share of consumer” (and bigger market share) and provide a much improved wealth-generating machine for those who actually want to learn the retail side of a balanced business.
However, that’s your call.
September 14th, 2007 at 8:33 pm
#129, txteamibo,
I agree that the coffee comment was not fair. See #32, #50, #78.
That being said, The IBOAI board moderator has a really good post on the Sept. 12th hearing.
He explained that there were additional items, at least 15 pages submitted that they hadn’t seen before. There were other papers that were to be submitted. The judge wanted a week for all to see them.
http://www.iboaiblog.com/my_weblog/2007/09/class-action-he.html
Jonathan Bernstein is smart and I am glad the IBOAI got someone at least civil. That is more than I can say for Corporate Communications, in my opinion.
September 14th, 2007 at 9:45 pm
For more information about what went on in the courtroom on the 12th, see this new post on the IBOAI blog:
http://www.iboaiblog.com/my_weblog/2007/09/class-action-he.html
For those running unauthorized websites, or selling through e-bay or Amazon, etc., you might want to read the other post that went up, today. I have done some searches on the net–and they are working fast!
September 14th, 2007 at 11:40 pm
jthompson…
are you starting to understand the power of a true TEAM???
Maybe the Quixtar ibo’s you are looking for don’t know their part of Amway and the parent company is Alticor. I guess the TEAM members certainly knew who they were partnering with huh?
read 127. CTC who is NOT a TEAM member. He edifies the TEAM leadership and system of information.
September 15th, 2007 at 1:52 am
Thanks NG, should I also report they “gave” me a new customer? Can I have a new customer after I resigned? haha
September 15th, 2007 at 3:00 am
Alticor claims they feel confident the facts are on their side. But what about the UK? I know the issue’s are different, but there is overlap, and they are changing their business model to legalize themselves. If I was speaking for them, I’d be finding something else to focus on. Interesting isn’t that one of the changes being made in the UK is lowering prices on coreline products? In addition also dropping IBO in favor for ABO (Amway Business Owner). Further they are informing the UK IBO’s that if they wish become a ABO and conitnue with the new business they need to notify Amway. The pricing issue and forced participation in a transformed business are the exact issue’s on the table in North America, so draw your own conclusions.
September 15th, 2007 at 5:10 pm
I heard Rich Devos speak at a Free Enterprise conference when he was transitioning the business over to the next generation. He mentioned a gift he gave them. A book about Pan Am Airlines. A company that had it all with no equal in the world. Today Pan Am is gone and only a business example for the history books. Rich went on to explain that without working hand in hand with the field, Quixtar would someday be the next Pan Am Airlines.
September 16th, 2007 at 1:01 am
106/ MP Z.,
Wow, the “Jay Factor” is only manufacturing costs times three? (I’ll just go ahead and assume this is true even though I have no idea and don’t really care what the Jay Factor really is.) I’ve been taught that in traditional distribution there is a lot more markup over the manufacturing cost once a product gets to the consumer. The wholesalers, brokers, advertisers, and retailers all take a cut. The Quixtar IBO marketing plan doesn’t promise to eliminate these middlemen so that we can all get discount store prices. The middlemen profits are redirected to Quixtar IBOs. That’s how we make the big bucks.
September 16th, 2007 at 1:37 pm
“Sure didn’t sound like anything we could easily work out over a cup of coffee anymore.”
alticor/quixtar/amway saw to it that time was over a long time ago so while you’re pointing a finger at the plantiffs and their representation remember there are 3 fingers pointing right back at you.
“Sure did sound like a group of people determined to destroy the Quixtar business opportunity.”
The name change back to amway and the fact that the company is making it harder and harder for it’s ibo’s to build their business will do a fine job of destroying the “Quixtar business opportunity” which, in my humble opinion, doesn’t exist anymore.
September 16th, 2007 at 7:04 pm
JThompson,
Just curious, what is your profession? To everybody else, please don’t rail on him for whatever he responds. I am simply curious. I’m a Microsoft Systems Engineer myself…
September 17th, 2007 at 12:52 am
JTHOMPSON I KNOW HOW YOU ARE,,,,YOU ARE THE ONE WHO DONT SHOW PLANS AND NO IBO IN YOUR SALES BIZ……..WE ARE PEOPLE THINKING,IF YOU THINK YOU WILL SEE,ORRIN IT’S JUST ONE MORE OF TEAM,BUT HE HAS HONOR,,,WELL,WHAT CAN YOU KNOW IF YOU ARE A EMPLOYE OF AMWAY…..
I WAS IBO,,,,,HONOR & RESPECT,,,,,,AM TEAM AND I TRUST IN GOD……
September 17th, 2007 at 2:51 am
Captain/ txteamIBO
Read your own TEAM’s affidavits as I suggested in post 108 above. TEAM was called in for the umpteenth time because of their rule transgressions. (The fact that the name change was announced around the same time, is a coincidence, and gave TEAM a nice “excuse”.)
In this meeting they refused to consider ways in which to become compliant with the rules, and only wanted to discuss separation. They demanded to be exempted from the rules.
Why should they be exempt from the rules?
Read TEAM’s own submission to court, and you will see that that there has been years of coffee opportunities, all of which were ignored by TEAM.
Now they come and start a law suit saying Q/A is an illegal pyramid, and most of the examples they quote, are of their rule transgressions. Talking about shooting yourself in the foot!!!
September 17th, 2007 at 3:09 am
The changes in the UK are a lot more fundamental than just changing the brand name from Amivo to Amway, which is why those IBO’s get an opportunity not to terminate.
In the US there has been no fundamental change in the business. Q is only stopping TEAM from taking the downline that TEAM built making use of Q’s blood swear and tears, to start a competitor.
Which is what Woodward said they were going to do. It is no good to now claim: “But there isn’t one yet.” Woodward wanted separation. Separation must lead to a different product supplier(s). That means competing with Amway. All Amway said, is follow the rules.
Woodward ran to the court, and is trying to get the court to do away with the non-compete.
(BTW, everybody says there is no monetary claims, but TEAM says that Q will lose at least $5 million in the process…..)
I would have defended myself as well.
September 17th, 2007 at 3:20 am
THE BIG WHEEL STILL UN AWARE THAT IT’S TARNISHED REPUTATION IS GOING TO BE EVEN LESS MARKETABLE NOW MORE THAN EVER IF THERE IS A POSSIBLE NEW PERSON!
It is sad that the Billions go to such a waste .
September 17th, 2007 at 9:22 am
124 Unimpressed
Perhaps you should educate yourself on what pharmaceutical grade means. It refers to the quality and the delivery system of the nutrient. It does not mean, as you seem to think, that it is a pharmaceutical that must be prescribed by a doctor. There are many products on the market that are pharmaceutical grade but are not regualted by the FDA and do not require a prescription. Of course, doctors will send you to the pharmacy so they can get their cut of the profits by writing the prescription for you.
September 17th, 2007 at 9:32 am
qreilly: “London calling” is a cross-post. Allowing comments on cross-posts leads to unnecessary duplication of comments.
You are more than welcome to leave comments on the post in question over on the Amway Media Blog. (Both blogs are moderated by the same people.)
Please let us know if you need any more help learning how to blog.
September 17th, 2007 at 9:56 am
#148
There is a change coming the US. That change is that Q is being dissolved into Amway. How is this, and all the rule changes NOT a fundamental change? You dissolve an entire corporation, and you say that isn’t a fundamental change? Quixtar is NOT Amway. Does anybody here deny that? It is not being dissolved into Amway. Does anybody here deny that? Quixtar IBOs are being forced into new Amway rules without even being asked about it. How can you dissolve a billion dollar corporation into another billion dollar corporation and say that “it’s not a fundamental change?”
September 17th, 2007 at 9:57 am
Hey Piet
Time to wake up!! Time to smell the coffee my friend!! Q preventing TEAM from taking the downline that was built by Q? Dude, sit down, relax, breathe deep……ready? Here it comes…..TEAM IBO’s are leaving by the brigade!! Why would they do this? Cause they follow leadership, not empty promises. I’ll bet you before this is done ALL IBO’s who continue to build will be with TEAM and none will stay with QuixAmtarway.
September 17th, 2007 at 12:07 pm
135 pepe “ORRIN IS A SCAM.
IN THE LAS GO DIAMOND THAT TOKE PLASE IN
LOS ANGELES CA.
HE MENTION THAT HE IS GOING TO LUNCH A NEW ENERGY DRINK, ALSO MENTIONED ABOUTH HES NEW (MLM) COMPANY.”
I am sure that all IBO’s are going to listen to your extreme display of intelligence on this matter after all, with all the mis-spellings how can anyone not consider you an expert.
September 17th, 2007 at 12:46 pm
Piet Strydom… haven’t seen you in the http://forums.freetheibo.info blog site since you were exposed as a PRO-Quixtar/Amway person digging for information.
What a COWARD!
September 17th, 2007 at 1:56 pm
I heard an awesome speaker this weekend and he simply gave this illustration:
While the Berlin wall was still erect, dividing a country between east and west, there were many people who tried to escape, although few did. Many of those people were even shot for trying to gain their freedom.
HOW SICK IS AN ENTITY THAT FORCES PEOPLE TO STAY IN, WHEN ALL THEY WANT IS THEIR FREEDOM!!!!!??? (sound familiar)
While all of this trouble was going on in East/West Berlin, there was one person who was brave enough to address it and call it what it was. On June 12, 1987 in West Berlin, Germany at the Brandenburg Gate Ronald Reagan gave his remarks. One of the statements was :” General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization: Come here to this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!
Does this sound vaguely familiar to any of you?
I wish I come up with the illustration on my own, however, it was our speaker’s words to which he received a standing ovation.
We are a mass of people, like minded, with the same goal - a million people. For those of you who have bad-mouthed and misunderstood our TEAM leadership, all we were asking for is the freedom to walk away without the 6 months of no business the way we see fit. When there was no “amicable separation” as was agreed to be talked about, everything was set in motion. It could have and should have been a whole different ball game.
September 17th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
Piet #147
I have read TEAM’s affadavit … several times … including the termination letter written by Quixtar. Do you think that this letter is devoid of Quixtar spin? The spin is there to make them look like the victim here. I think that is very apparent from the start:
“These breaches together with your anticipatory breach or repudiation of the Quixtar contract today, are so numerous and serious that they have put Quixtar and other IBOs at serious and immediate risk of legal and regulatory action.”
What a joke! What laws did Orrin/Chris/TEAM break that would risk bringing legal action? What government regulatory agency did they violate the rules of? Nothing! Nada! Zilch!
“Anticipatory Breach?” Has Quixtar become the thought police or some sort of psychic organization?
This is classic Quixtar spin to make them look like innocent victims.
“These activities constitute violations of Rules 4.1 (failure to exercise a duty of good faith and fair dealing); and 5.4 (failure to comply with the obligations of a sponsor and a Platinum to properly train other IBOs).”
Pretty subjective wording, don’t you think?
I would recommend that you read all the articles at http://freetheiboblog.typepad.com. Yes, I know they’re long, but they are quite enlightening. You’ll hear that Orrin and Chris *had* been working with Quixtar in order to get their BSM accredited and to come to an understanding on other issues. The things that Quixtar cited in that letter weren’t issues until it was convenient for them to become issues (like stacking, BSM, etc).
This termination letter is dripping with Quixtar spin … no different than anything else we’ve seen come from the company of late.
September 17th, 2007 at 4:24 pm
Im so glad to see the Amway Business get Better & Better!
September 17th, 2007 at 6:42 pm
#140 Thunderstruck
Now they’re stacking people on you…
Spamming, stacking, what’s next??
September 17th, 2007 at 8:07 pm
#151 Administrator
How are we to comment on the “london calling” post of yours when its closed to comments?
September 17th, 2007 at 8:21 pm
rroney: Comments are closed on cross-post as it is preferred to leave comments on the post in question (over at the Amway Media Blog). This is done to avoid duplication of comments.
You are welcome to submit your comments there. We moderate both blogs and will be sure to look for your comment.
September 17th, 2007 at 10:50 pm
My wife and I sent this out today:
_______________________________________
“Effective today, September 17, 2007, we hereby resign our Independent Business with Quixtar. We feel Quixtar has not operated in good faith with the pending name change to Amway. We feel the products are overpriced at retail. The rewards are not worth the effort to build the business. I’m disappointed in the unprofessional way that Alticor has treated TEAM leadership in the issues at hand.
My resignation is made pursuant to Quixtar’s Rules of Conduct: 3.11. Resignation: An IBO may resign his or her IB at any time by appropriately communicating to the Corporation and sending a copy of such communication to his or her Sponsor or first upline IBO who has attained a higher award level, such as Platinum, Ruby, etc.
I hope you resolve these issues for the sake of your current and future IBO’s”
__________________________________________
I wish all of you the best. It is time to put this behind me. I learned a lot, I enjoyed many of the products and may still order some of them through friends who are long-term IBOs. (I won’t pay retail for them.)
I wish all of you the best in your business and I mean no harm to any of you. I hope that Amway will seriously look at making your job easier with some higher profit margins.
My intention is to leave and speak of Amway/Quixtar IBOs with respect. It’s over. This is my last posting. I’m no longer an IBO as of 10 minutes ago and will not speak. I choose now to remember the positive and leave the negative behind.
God bless,
Rico
September 17th, 2007 at 11:32 pm
154 Chris &
135 pepe
I am failrly certain that Orrin is, in fact, a person.
Man, are you allowed to even refer to “toking” here? Maybe a good therapist could help you.
Was he going to eat a drink, or take it to lunch???
Were you holding your tongue when you wrote this?
Yes, I am being silly and kidding about the post… obviously, there is no way to take it seriously!
September 18th, 2007 at 11:31 am
Mojoman 152
Quixtar has always been Amway. Call it anything you want, it is the same business. Changing the name does not constitute “dissolving” the business. As for rule changes, the contracts clearly provide for such changes. If you don’t like them, then quit and honor the contract you signed by waiting 6 months before competing with Quixtar and 2 years without stealing other distributors in their organization. And by the way, yes it is their distributors. This whole “We built the organization so it is my people, not Quixtar’s” argument is a joke. It is like saying any business contacts you made working for a company are yours simply because you were the one that first contacted them. It doesn’t work that way and it never has.
Chris 154
I thought Team was all about showing respect towards others? Nice reply, attacking someone’s intelligence because of their grammar and spelling when it is clear that english is not their first language. Personally, I feel this shows more about your character than it does pepe’s intelligence. This is exactly the kind of personal attacks that need to be set aside so that an intelligent discussion of everything that is taking place can occur.
September 18th, 2007 at 12:08 pm
Hey Quixtar/Amway/Alticor This has to be very humbling to watch email after email, fax after fax come in and say I am resigning…This Can’t be a good thing for anyone at the corp level, With the amount of people leaving, you might have to get a loan to pay for the advertising you are going to have to do to try to overcome all this negative stuff you have created, I guess the first thing you should do is comply with the Texas TRO and remove all the blogs you have done, That is actually a win for you so there would be no proof of your kindergarden ways. The next is you might try changing the name to a pig latin version like mwayay then nobody will no who the company really is. Amway is imploding right before the eyes of everyone.
It would be nice for someone to give us a legitiment explanation of how a company that openly says they are trying to remove the negative comes to the conception they should rename their company back to the name of what got them the reputation in the first place. I would like to know who that decision maker was and shake his hand he has destroyed a great american Icon buisness. Hopefully his pay goes back to what it was Pre-Quixtar
September 18th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
164 BK you are so confused…
if you go to the better business Bureau you will see that there are 3 different business, if Qixtar is Amway then Access Management has to be Amway as well I have attached the discriptions from the BBB for you. Further more If Quixtar is Amway and all they did is change the name maybe you could explain to me why in 1999 a choice was given to the IBO’s to stay or go when they switched companies.
From the BBB
Alticor Inc. is the parent firm for the following business units: Amway Corporation; Quixtar Inc. and Access Business Group.
Amway Corporation was founded in 1959 by Rich DeVos and Jay Van Andel. Amway is a multi-level direct selling company operating primarily in markets outside the U.S., U.S. Territories, Puerto Rico, and Canada.
Quixtar Inc. is a Web-based e-commerce business launched September 1, 1999. Quixtar offers consumer shopping, membership benefits and business ownership opportunities on the Internet. Quixtar is Alticor’s direct selling company in the U.S., U.S. Territories, Puerto Rico, and Canada.
Access Business Group offers product development, strategic procurement, manufacturing, quality assurance, transportation, logistics and customer service for the Alticor family of companies. Additionally, Access contracts manufacturing and logistic services to other corporations.
September 18th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
#165 Chris:
Humbling? Hardly. I’m sure they’re glad to be rid of people who can’t think for themselves and don’t bother to read or follow the rules.
Leave the REAL business building to the REAL IBOs.
September 18th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
BK #164
WRONG - read the ibofacts. This is from Quixtar, you know…the “good guys”. It says Quixtar and Amway are NOT THE SAME. Says they are “sister” companies under Alticor. I had to explain this many times to people cause I have never spoken to anyone who wanted to be a part of Amway…nobody. In fact, this includes me. Amway is dirtbag at best, could have been good but too much ego. Seeeeeeeee Yaaaaaaa!!
September 18th, 2007 at 9:06 pm
BK 165
Perhaps you are missing something here… if a person has difficulty with typing in english, don’t you think there is just a chance that they did not understand the discussion they were typing about to begin with?
No, “pepe” did not seem like a person who has a language barrier, he seemed more like a plant trying to ACT like a person with a language barrier to make a point AND get sympathy for his message. Notice that “pepe” used the word “mention” as if not knowing how to use it properly… ONCE, then he used “mentioned” properly. You should watch CSI or something.
September 19th, 2007 at 3:22 am
Wendi #156
The people behind the iron curtain did not sign an agreement saying they would live there. The team leadership was well aware of the agreement they signed and they did not want to abide by it.
If what I read out here is true team has a one year non-compete in their own system. If that is the case you’d better check what side of the wall YOU are on.
The team leaders are guilty of the same thing they complained about with Quixtar. To all the the IBO’s in team that would like to start their own system; “Mr. Woodward, tear down that wall!”
September 19th, 2007 at 10:17 am
This is awesome…the longer this goes on the more people leave Quixtar, nobody is even blogging anymore because they are already gone…Quixtar is a has been company. The next thing we will see is Quixtar filed chapter 11, they wasted all their money on court cases trying to keep ibos as their property, they left anyway and the revenue is lost…way to go Quixtar, if you wanted to shut down your company it would probably have been better to just run a going out of business sell…
September 19th, 2007 at 10:55 am
BK, 164
Back your comment up because the brass at Quixtar even disagrees with you. Ever heard of John Parker? He was Quixtar’s business manager. Please see the quote below in the next paragraph.
Show me proof that Quixtar is the same company as Amway. If it is the same company why were distributors allowed out of their Amway contracts to join Quixtar? If it is the same company, why would people have to sign new contracts when Quixtar started? That doesn’t make sense if it is the same company. They are a sister company of Alticor. Can anybody either back me up on this, or show evidence of my logical fallacy? How about John Parker?
“This is not Amway on line. This is truly a different business model” John Parker-Amway Corporation-”Unveiling your future” PN2103
John Parker was Quixtar’s business manager. Are you going to argue with him? If so, why?
About the owner thing, I am NOT property as stated by Amway. Maybe you like being owned, but I don’t. I will never be owned by anybody. I’d rather die. Maybe you like being “owned” by a company, and considered “property.” I don’t.
September 19th, 2007 at 11:51 am
JTHOMPSON— you wrote…
“TEAM followers think that TEAM is equal to Quixtar. TEAM does not own a mlm Corporation, they are distributors that thought more highly of themselves than reality.
TEAM
- the lowest customer sales
- the lowest income for platinums
- the most hiding of Quixtar name and misrepresentation of Quixtar relationship
- the most complaints to Quixtar
Winters Team went from about 7,000 in 2002 to over 17,000 in 2006 ….. without the “Team Approach””
This is hillarious…you tell us that TEAM is bad in those three areas, and then you support “Team Winters” (whoever that is) suggesting that they are growing fast. If I was going to disparage another group based on performance, I would have done an “apples to apples” comparison. Not like ” you guys suck in these areas, but we are good in this one…”
Anyway, the point is this: Team — Fastest Growing Team For the Past Few Years. So Fast, that Orrin was asked to speak for Quixtar…HMMM?
Everyone else…here is what I see…We win, we lose, this goes on for weeks or months…It doesn’t really matter. All your bickering back and forth and fighting…doesn’t matter. All you Pro Amway, and all you Pro Team…doesn’t matter. Those who are leaving and those who are staying…doesn’t matter. I have more a question of Integrity.
When I signed up, I didn’t know that Q/A took a huge cut of all we do. I didn’t know that, the money that I could be recieving in my monthly check, was going to some Billionaire families. And then they decide to jack up the price of XS, shipping, and make it harder for bonuses. They also make it so all tool profits now will stay with them, all under the guise of legality concerns. A company with low integrity is not a company that I can support…and one that I definately can’t profit from. (I hope you all realize that)
Anyway…none of this matters…it really doesn’t. Here is what’s going to happen….
Quixtar wins- It loses anyway with loss of revenue, and bad media, and a TERRIBLE name
Quixtar loses- It loses with loss of revenue, and bad media, and a TERRIBLE name
Either way you slice it, lawsuit or not, it’s over and we are already on that course…I wish you all the best of luck in any of your endeavors, and hopefully we all have learned something from this business opportunity.
September 19th, 2007 at 12:50 pm
pvbyguy
Nice name, probably goes along with losing weight as you keep getting smaller and smaller and smaller….Anyway, TEAM does NOT have a one year non compete. If we did that would be saying we have a product business. Nobody seems to understand that we are a leadership development consortuim. You can take what we learn and apply it to ANYTHING…home, family, work, sports. How could we have a no complete? You people need to verify where you get your info.
September 19th, 2007 at 3:07 pm
#172 Mojoman:
I think some of your are running wild with the “ownership” thing.
Quixtar certainly did not mean to imply that they OWN anyone. What they meant is that you are QUIXTAR IBOs. TEAM has misrepresented themselves and allowed you to believe that you are TEAM IBOs.
#171 Chris:
Have you resigned? If so, why are you still posting. Is this your hobby? Shouldn’t you be building the TEAM business? Oh wait! There is NO TEAM BUSINESS.
September 19th, 2007 at 3:42 pm
pvbv,
I don’t think TEAM is saying they didn’t know they signed a non-compete. Some IBOs knew, some didn’t, doesn’t really matter here- that’s not the issue. You are right that they didn’t want to abide by it.
It is the right of every citizen in this country to challenge a contract or part of a contract for whatever reason they choose. If you think that every agreement made in this country has been legitimate and legally binding then you are living in a delusional world. Contracts can be made and even agreed to but they must also stand up in court if challenged. The courts will sort it out and either way I think most TEAM IBOs will not stay with Q. My decision became clearer and clearer as the days went by. All you have to do is look at Quixtar’s own statistic of only 3% in retail sales to know that there is a problem with Quixtar and their prices across the board not just in TEAM. I also read that Q is retailing products in stores in other countries and that XS is for sale in their stadiums (is this really true? please confirm or correct for the sake of those still in the biz)
Bottom line is Quixtar is heading in the wrong direction for me. If I had decided to stay in Q/A I would be emailing the company (Q/A)and blogging questions to the moderators to get assurances about the newly transformed business I am bringing people into rather than worrying about people that have already left for greener pastures. You have the right and an obligation to your team to know what the company’s real plans are for yours and their future. Don’t forget to point out the 6mo/2yr non-compete clause to your new IBOs (this should be in the QBOB) I imagine lots of people have left Quixtar and joined Mary Kay, Pampered Chef or Party Lite within 6 months of resigning or not renewing. Some are probably signed up to two or more and still in Quixtar right now! Just for fun, I would be interested in that statistic.
September 19th, 2007 at 4:39 pm
posts: 166,174
I’m sure no one was arguing that Amway and Quixtar were logically the same company - when people say they are the same company they mean:
-same owners
-same business model
-same products.
-same sales force
Of which, it’s quite obvious they are (with extremely tiny deviations, which I will address later). Of course they went through the proper channels and made distinct business entities, but this does not change the fact that the owners, business model, products, sales force is still the exact same. So when someone says they are the same company, you seem very impulsive when you attack them on the literal meaning of ’same’
For all those who are now about to pounce and say that the owners have changed. Prove it. (privately held company, your guess is as good as mine, but I’d be hard pressed to believe the majority owners are no longer Devos/Van Andel)
For those who think the business model changed? How? They went online…WOW. So did every other retailing company, that doesn’t mean they changed their business, they just adapted to new technology. Imagine Wal-Mart created a distint online presense with a new business name, you’d laugh and say ‘it’s still walmart….just online’.
Like wise: ‘it’s still Amway…just online’
Products. Still SA8, still Nutrilite, still Tolsom, still whatever else. Sure, they added in XS and other incredible edibles. Once again, SO WHAT? When McDonalds started offering salad it was no reason to change their name and claim a new business model.
The only real change in the products, was that now you can buy non-amway products (like kellogs, etc..). But of course no one does cause you hardly get any PV from it and it’s more expensive then the grocery store.
–>yes, as an IBO I used to buy my Kellogs online, and though it was more expensive (IBO Cost - 25% platinum bonus on BV WAS STILL MORE EXPENSIVE THEN GROCERY!).
I used a method of doublethink in that ‘but I’m getting rich buying from myself!” Eventually I clued in…..I need to switch my supplier
Sales Force: I could write a lot here - but I don’t think anyone would argue that the sales force changed. What shall we call it? Mass migration?
In theory, people could say: “Why go into Amway, isn’t that that MLM company who lost 99% of their distributors in 1999?”
September 19th, 2007 at 5:54 pm
Anyone heard any news on today’s court proceedings?
September 19th, 2007 at 8:02 pm
chris,
I am sure that all IBOS are listen to you.
perhaps you are missing something TEAM was all about showing respect towards others.
! HMMM ! YOU LEARN WELL..
the attacks is a signal of your intelligence,
you are the exactly kind of person we need to terminate.
September 19th, 2007 at 9:33 pm
Chris,
your comment already been wasted,Maybe you like to keep your character for an other business.
maybe you could give to Mr. Woodward this news;
The next lost of business revenue is you.
next thing you and after that you.
be a man ! just go….
September 19th, 2007 at 9:45 pm
Chris
All you have to do is look down,
Maybe you like think smaller and smaller because your brain is delusional and wasted.
September 19th, 2007 at 11:55 pm
174 oh yes i have resigned and when the smoke clears well see about the team biz won’t we…
September 20th, 2007 at 1:52 am
NG #176
It was my understanding that Quixtar had until today to comment on some documents that were submitted on the 12th.
http://www.iboblog.org/my_weblog/blog_index.html
has under one of it’s blogs a real good explanation. I wasn’t expecting anything from the judge today. I did think Alticor might post their second brief, but I guess they decided it wasn’t worth releasing. We have a few remaining questions. 1. Does the judge consider the class-action suit legal. 2. Does the judge think he has jurisdiction. 3. Are the documents that were submitted enough for him to make a decision. If so, we could get a response within a week or two, or if not, he could bring the parties back.
I have no clue if the class-action suit is legal. I think he does have jurisdiction. I think Quixtar and Alticor are in legal trouble, but I don’t believe they are operating an illegal pyramid. They will need to change a few things to stay legal.
While they are at it, perhaps they can restore the board’s veto power that Rich Devos spoke of years ago, and Jody Victor has also spoke of.
Perhaps they will then be able to keep the business. I have wondered why Amway India has said Amway had 4.5 million IBOs when everyone else says they have only 3 million. I wonder if they lost 1/3 overseas this year. Not a good year for Alticor. Of course if they don’t think it a big deal to loose Don & Nancy, perhaps the Corporation isn’t a big deal anymore.
September 20th, 2007 at 2:33 am
#173-It’s pvbvguy, not pvbyguy and I like my name better than Thunderstruck or is it Thundeystruck?
I know for a fact that if you lead an IBO organization that “plugs in” with team you sign a one year non-compete. Stop drinking the team kool-aid (or maybe you have to because you don’t have XS) and check your facts! If they’re denying they have one; then your the one being deceived. You can have a non-compete in a product business, a training system or a variety of other entities.
#175 DLS in Chicago-I agree a contract can be challenged in the courts and time will tell what the validity of that agreement will be.
I’m sorry you have decided to leave this business. Personally I think it is going to get better in a big way and the organization I’m a part of has seen a big jump in sponsorship since Sept. 1.
I’m not saying Quixtar is perfect; they are a long way from it. Likewise, I don’t believe that the IBO organizations are perfect. I believe by working together in a spirit of partnership the IBO’s and Quixtar can do fantastic things.
You seem like a good person and are not like a lot of the team guys who resort to name calling, snide comments and repeat the “party line” that the team leaders spin. It’s funny; if you challenge them on their facts or their historic quotes, they immediately go to name calling or raise the tenor of their outrage.
In my former life I was a history teacher and there are other people in the world, besides the team leaders, who can recite great examples from history. The difference is I know and have studied history; I’m not trying to rewrite it.
September 20th, 2007 at 2:50 am
TEAM WIN AGAIN….IT’S DONE
SEE YA!
September 20th, 2007 at 10:19 am
GirlPower 167,
Stay with Q/A the 2 of you make a nice fit. Once again, which rules did they “not bother to read or follow”? Also the “can’t think for themselves” is a nice touch. Just proving what a “REAL IBO” is.
Chris 171
I’m with you. Just checking in from time to time for the entertainment value.
September 20th, 2007 at 1:31 pm
pepe…you must have taken an english course your english has gotten much better…
September 20th, 2007 at 6:14 pm
pvbvguy:
Geez dude….sorry. I hit a wrong key. Sure hope I never accidently cut you off in traffic, you may shoot me or something. By the way…..there is no non compete with TEAM. Get over it.
September 20th, 2007 at 10:56 pm
Hey,
If Q/A has a going out of business sale as Chris - 171 mentions…does that mean we might actually get the products priced low enough to retail, or are they going to increase the Jay Factor to make up for the discount??
Just curious as to how that might work..
September 21st, 2007 at 1:47 am
#184
“I know for a fact that if you lead an IBO organization that “plugs in” with team you sign a one year non-compete.”
Really??? I am part of TEAM and didn’t have to sign a non-compete with them. The only Non-ompete was part of the Quixtar rules if you would have read it.
I, personally, can’t wait until TEAM starts their own competing MLM because the prices will at least be competitive & I can actually “SELL” something instead of consuming it myself.
September 21st, 2007 at 11:37 am
So is there no new info with the LA Court case?
September 21st, 2007 at 1:21 pm
Thunderstruck -
You might want to check on that “no non-compete” fact with your upline who is receiving comp for BSM sales (believe that’s Turbo 25 or above).
As a member of Team below this level, you would NOT be necessarily privvy to this agreement, as you’re not receiving any tools comp YET.
September 21st, 2007 at 1:35 pm
Thunderstruck -
If you’ll look on the site
http://freetheibo.com/courtdocuments.html
(which is the TEAM site for legal proceeding documentation)
and review the last document, entitled
“Quixtar’s Opposition to Plaintiffs Motion for Preliminary Injunction”
I believe you’ll find Exhibit A to be of interest regarding non-compete agreement.
Now, if there is some question regarding it’s validity, that’s another issue. But it is a matter of record in the proceedings, so to proclaim it doesn’t exist is … questionable.
September 21st, 2007 at 1:57 pm
Pepe,
You said;
“ORRIN IS A SCAM.
IN THE LAS GO DIAMOND THAT TOKE PLASE IN
LOS ANGELES CA.
HE MENTION THAT HE IS GOING TO LUNCH A NEW ENERGY DRINK, ALSO MENTIONED ABOUTH HES NEW (MLM) COMPANY.”
I was at this “Go Diamond” and as Orrins “host”, I was with him the entire time he was in Los Angeles.
I have the recordings of the event and listened to EVERY word he said that day.
Never once did he mention anything about another MLM or drink and I am very disappointed you would state this.
I know that you are not an Emerald or Diamond since I personally know everyone that attended ( Unless Pepe is not your real name ) but you are at least a silver.
That is why I am shocked that you would jump on a public blog to slander Orrin with an out right lie.
Maybe Alfredo, Luis, or Paco could recommend a few books that might help you with this issue of yours.
My recommendation would be to start with the Bible.
Jefe
September 21st, 2007 at 3:37 pm
chris #187
You seem like a good person, sorry for you.
I don’t think TEAM leaders could get enough money to share with you.
September 21st, 2007 at 5:55 pm
Thunderstruck,
You were the one who started off your original comment (see post #173) to me with the insult.
By the way you replied in your last post (#188) you now comment that I “may shoot you or something”. I think it’s your nature to come back with a snide comment when someone challenges you on your facts.
There is a non-compete in spite of what you are being told and I don’t have to get over it; you do.
P.S. How far is the “v” from the “y” on your keyboard?
September 21st, 2007 at 7:14 pm
What amazes me most about the pro a/q/a ibo’s on this blog is how alarmingly deluded you all are. Amway is well on it’s way to get rid of you. Have you not seen the sites up where customers can go and but exclusive products without the assistance of an ibo? Wake up guys and gals, your days are numbered.
September 23rd, 2007 at 9:23 am
rroney #197,
You are mistaken.
Amway has ALWAYS had a policy where the general public could purchase a product, but they had to be attached to an IBO FIRST. In the pre-internet days, they called the corp on the telephone and were assigned an IBO for volume tracking purposes.
Get a clue, your days are over.
September 24th, 2007 at 10:55 am
Texster -
It is dangerous to assume nothing has changed since last you knew … we all know what happens when we assume, right?
In actuality, sales are occurring 1st on these sites and THEN the PV/BV is then being randomly assigned to an IBO.
The key word in your post is “has ALWAYS had …”
My experience dictates ALWAYS and NEVER are probably not best used in descriptions since 8/09/07.
Just because something had ALWAYS been done a certain way does not mean it’s ALWAYS going to be same going forward. That’s a dangerous assumption, my friend … and you know it.
After all, the company also had NOT always had a non-compete clause … right?
September 24th, 2007 at 12:52 pm
#198
True, but they do not give you the customers’ information so that you contact them. (I know it could be at the customer’s request). There is no opportunity to service the new customer, not anymore. We get mystery volume every month or so, but the last time we got a customer name to call or a customer who called us from the corporation was over 5 years ago. And now if I want 20% uplift on customer volume I have to turn over my customer information to Amway, no thanks.
September 24th, 2007 at 3:09 pm
I was so confused over this entire TEAM situation until watched the video of Mr. Devos talking about the bizz. Sure helped me put things into perspective. Thank you! I found it on YouTube search for “devos running company”
September 24th, 2007 at 5:28 pm
G’ster #199,
What assumption did I make? All I did was state the FACT that Amway/Quixtar has never sold directly to customers and cut out the Distributor/IBO bonus profit.
In actuality, Quixtar assigns the PV to a local Platinum, in case there is and opportunity to develop a relationship and further increase sales, and keep the IBO’s in the loop. Each Platinum has the choice to assign an IBO in their group to service these customers. Sounds fair to me.
The fact is ALWAYS applies to this situation accurately. If you want to be afraid this situation may change, you would probably be afraid if someone told you the sky is falling.
The non-compete clause was added as a result of the TIF fiasco. Are you familiar with that situation? The non-compete clause was designed to protect US, and it does that very well, as illustrated by TEAM.
September 24th, 2007 at 8:16 pm
#200 Wondering…
I was just thinking the new receipt system was so Quixtar could show that there were more retail sales going on that they had record of.
I know we just used the modified Amway software for our last retail sale instead. They no longer support it, but changing the logo wasn’t hard, and inputing a few prices isn’t hard either.
You bring up a good point. If Quixtar were to have all of our customer information, would they give it back or delete it if we left? Wouldn’t that be our customers or theirs? Are they wanting the information just to steal them when we aren’t needed anymore.
I didn’t realize they didn’t give you the customer information from drop by online sales. That makes the new Simply Nutrilite site worse than I had feared.
September 25th, 2007 at 12:39 am
Wondering #200,
The customer has a choice whether to be contacted by you, as they should. Too bad the tool scam has caused customers not to be bothered by the IBO’s to try to get them to join, so they can expand their tool scam.
Utah #203,
Yeah, Quixtar wants to get rid of the IBO’s so they can do business with the 3.4% volume from the customers. That sounds smart…NOT!
September 25th, 2007 at 9:54 am
whatever [#44], and other Team people:
There is something I don’t quite understand — and I’m not being sarcastic.
What does (did) Team need Quixtar for, if they “ . . . consider themselves in the TEAM business first, and the Quixtar business is/was secondary.”?
Team has its mission to change people’s lives or something close to that. You have your leaders, whom you look up to, trust, and admire. You have your training system which provides income.
So what do you need Quixtar for?
Tex, please don’t jump in and answer for them. I want to hear their comments.
Thanks!
September 25th, 2007 at 9:57 am
Tex #202
“The non-compete clause was added as a result of the TIF fiasco. Are you familiar with that situation? The non-compete clause was designed to protect US, and it does that very well, as illustrated by TEAM.”
As I see it, this quote from you is what all of this is really about. If someone within TEAM decided they did not like the way TEAM was running their business, and decided to start a competing company with them, what would TEAM do? Does anyone think they would step aside and say - go ahead, compete with us, take all of the distributors you want to start up with. Of course not, yet that is exactly what TEAM is asking to do. And yet, people (ie TEAM members) wonder why Quixtar is not prepared to let that happen. Mind boggling.
September 25th, 2007 at 10:04 am
Tex -
Read #202.
Not afraid of anything. Just discussing changing landscape with those capable of acknowledging things are not going to ALWAYS remain the same.
I don’t make that decision. It’s more a function of being open to new input vs. dogmatic regurgitation of past practices.
As always - folks can adjust perceptions if they allow themselves to take new input & are not trapped in their existing paradigms. Not my decision.
September 25th, 2007 at 10:34 am
pybyguv #196
You just make this too much fun!! You comment about my post #173….am I matthew now? By the way the “v” and the “y” are about 1.75″ from center to center, yea, my typo sure was a big mistake. Also, my comment to you that you claim is an insult wasn’t meant to be taken that way and I apologize if I offended you, but the truth hurts doesn’t it? Still can’t find that no compete clause with the TEAM, care to tell me where I can find it in the paperwork? You talk a mighty talk, but I’m afraid you can’t walk the walk….so get over it. In final, in case you didn’t get it, I switched the “v” and the “y” in your name as a joke.
September 25th, 2007 at 1:52 pm
BK #206
Your logic rings true, but there is one very important consideration you are forgetting. Leadership. The leadership of Orrin and Chris is the deciding factor. Anybody on TEAM IS allowed to leave and start there own, and take anybody with them!! Good Luck however, because people follow good leadership, that’s Orrin and Chris. Why do you think TEAM members are resigning in droves instead of staying with Quixtar? NOBODY on my team wants to leave what Orrin and Chris have developed - I won’t tell you the size of team I have but it is substantial.
People tend not to understand leadership because it is such a rare commodity nowdays. I didn’t get in the business due to Quixtar. They have done nothing for me. Sure I made money thru the products, but if that is all I wanted to do I could just open up a store anywhere. I got in ONLY for the leadership this team represents, and that is what kept me going. This is how the strong loyalty to our leaders has been developed. Contrary to what many think, we are not “blindly” following these guys. Do yourself a favor, in early October Orrin and Chris’ book “Launching The Leadership Revolution” is being released. Buy It. Don’t worry, if you are concerned about them making money off of you the proceeds are going to charity. But read this to understand the mindset of this two individuals, and I think you’ll understand what it’s like to be part of this great team.
September 25th, 2007 at 2:01 pm
The Big Apple #205
Beautiful!! It’s great to see somebody who is not writing emotionally but with intelligence. Read my previous post and that should help you. BTW, you are correct, we dont need Quixtar!!In fact, my business has grown at an accelerated rate since I resigned!!
September 25th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
Tex,
When I want your opinion, I will ask for it.
Most people find you answering all the posts, especially when directed at someone else, rude.
I think everyone here knows what you think on everything, or could if we wanted to.
ie: 203 to 200.
September 25th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
#203 Utah:
I believe that they are now requiring the Customer Sales Activity & Receipt so that new IBOs get into the habit of correctly reporting their customer volume. Do you have any idea how many IBOs report their “50 points” without having any clue what or why they’re reporting? Lousy information from upline IBOs creates a generation of clueless IBOs.
Now they’ll know the difference.
Hopefully.
September 25th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
Tex:
I know that you seem to only see through the “BSM” glasses, but take them off for a minute.
Amway’s poor reputation goes back even before big tool systems, as my parents were distributors in the late 60s and early 70s.
Customers wanting to keep their infomation private can be for a variety of reasons including “door-to-door sales fear”, “dislike of sales calls at their home”, “prefer placing their own orders online”, etc.
In fact, I would tend to not want someone to call me about sales. If I purchase a TV from an internet site, I do not want local stores calling me to see if I want a DVD player with that. But, Amway could release and or require an email so that some type of marketing can be done by the ABO (Amway Business Owner). ((although they probably do require it and are doing this for themselves)) After buying my internet TV, I expect a follow up email and snail mail offering accessories. I may even want to be on a monlthly newsletter or update on future sales from said sight.
My concern is that Amway is getting ready to go around the ABO. There are many indicators. And as for the 3.4% of sales? Well if they get all of the ABO’s customers, plus two years of a $200 million dollar ad campaign generating new customers, plus launching independent websites like “Simply Nutrilite”, and continue to launch exclusive products under different labels at retail stores, and finally being able to drop prices up to 25% (bonus bracket) then I would say they will be looking good. In fact, good enough for an IPO and relieve the families of the burden of the business.
OK - so you dont think so. Well how about making Quixtar “University” the clearing house for tools and then they take in the J factor on all BSM’s. Now who gets all of those “evil” BSM profits?
My prediction? Amway Products and Quixtar BSMs by 2010 … Amway IPO as soon as Rich makes Amway a positive household name through all of our efforts.
September 25th, 2007 at 10:34 pm
BK #206,
I think this is really about the tool scam as the primary issue, as Quixtar is now applying pressure, as they were forced to do in the UK. The first group to squeal was TEAM, because they were in other trouble with Quixtar already and have been planning to split with Quixtar, so it was natural for them to propose the further breaking of rules and sue Quixtar.
September 25th, 2007 at 10:48 pm
Thunderstruck #209,
Orrin and Chris may change the definition “charity” to paying their lawyer bills. Charity begins at home, right?
Utah #211,
When I want to give you my opinion, you’ll get it. It’s called freedom of speech.
GirlPower #212,
Unfortunately, I don’t think Quixtar has done much to improve the confidence retail is actually being done. I discussed with my Quixtar Sales Manager how we were taught to “fake out” the Quixtar site, and he didn’t offer any additional assurance things were being changed to overcome this issue.
Wondering #213,
Now I know how you picked your name, you wonder about useless things.
September 25th, 2007 at 11:22 pm
The Big Apple,
I don’t know that I can respond to your question on behalf of all “team people.” I can however give you my perspective. Quixtar represented an opportunity to apply TEAM’s community development and leadership training to a business that could take advantage of the e-commerce explosion. Unfortunately, it became more and more evident that those running Quixtar had no intention of taking full advantage of the company’s potential by becoming price competitive. I simply choose to seek out a better opportunity once I am legally permitted to do so.
September 25th, 2007 at 11:41 pm
#213 Wondering:
Quixtar is not retailing any of thier products under different lables at retail stores. I’m not sure where you got that information, but it’s incorrect.
Also, Quixtar is not selling anything from Quixtar University. Quixtar University is both free and optional. Since most of the BSMs being sold by the different groups are not addressing how to retail the products I think it’s a step in the right direction that Q has decided to show ‘em how it’s done.
#215 Tex:
It wasn’t being done correctly. And frankly, some of the IBOs who were taught incorrectly are a lost cause. It’d be nice to see them get back on track, but that may be a long while before it happens.
Right now we have to look at the new IBOs who are signing up. Maybe we can’t help the person who has been reporting incorrectly for the last three years, but we can teach the new guy to do it right. It’s easier to teach it correctly than it is to retrain it.
September 25th, 2007 at 11:46 pm
Hi everyone,
I just want to pop my head in over here for a brief moment. I mean no disrespect. I mean no harm. I just am…confused…baffled…scratching my head asking myself, “What am I missing? Why does this not make sense to me? Doesn’t this seem kind of out of whack?”
I’ve been reading some comments on this thread and others, and well…I still don’t know why TEAM members signed a contract with Quixtar.
I TOTALLY understand that you all are loyal to TEAM, that you not loyal to Quixtar. I totally understand that you believe in the leadership/personal growth “products” that TEAM offers.
I get that. I really, really, really understand that.
What I don’t understand is how some of you seem to miss the fact that your leaders didn’t just sign you up in TEAM, they signed you up in Quixtar.
And by doing so, THERE IS A PROBLEM if you don’t view TEAM as a SUPPORT organization for building a Quixtar business. TEAM, just like ALL LOAs are support systems. I am loyal to my LOA. I really love and admire my leaders. However, I am aware that the purpose of my LOA is to help me grow a Quixtar/Amway business.
It exists for that purpose and that purpose only. All the by-products of becoming a better person, better mom, better wife, growing mentally, emotionally, spiritually, are just that—by-products. Life-changing by-products, but nonetheless, by-products.
I subscribe to the idea “Build the man and he’ll build the business”.
I really understand how much you admire Orrin, Chris, and gang. I’m just wondering if anyone has ever considered that maybe they misled a few people by having people have more loyalty to a SUPPORT system rather than the thing that is was originally designed to support?
You all saw a TEAM plan, which is not the Quixtar plan. And yet your Upline had you sign a contract with Quixtar.
Why?
If you all hate Quixtar, then why did you sign a contract with them?
Why is Quixtar getting the heat, when, from my vantage point, it should be your Upline who wasn’t honest (about the fact that TEAM is to play a supporting role to building a Quixtar business) and “forced” you to sign contracts with Quixtar?
And, from my vantage point, it would appear that we all have TEAM to thank for the name changing back to Amway. The Corp probably felt that this was the only way to get THEIR business model presented.
I was not pleased at first with this Transformation. But now I understand why it has to be done…
*sigh*
September 26th, 2007 at 12:35 am
#217, Who said I hated Quixtar? Think Alticor is acting like a bunch of fools, but who knows. The latest press out of Alticor has Haugen and Wilson dropping the LA suit. Maybe someone at Corp realized it wouldn’t take much to fix a few things. I still say the choice of 1999 is the answer.
September 26th, 2007 at 9:32 am
#218, Here is the thing about signing up in Quixtar, and by the way I am not part of the team, When i signed up to become an IBO I started my company, got a tax ID number and was opperating my company. I needed and internet provider so I contacted a local ISP and signed a contract with them(however I am not part of that ISP) I needed Lights to be on in my home office so I have a contract with the electric company(however I am not part of the electric company), I needed someone to remove my trash so I contracted with the trash company to remove my trash(however I am not part of the trash company) I also needed someone to provide distribution of my products and accounting for the transactions so I contracted with Quixtar( however I am not part of quixtar) I own my own company independly of my upline, The-team, or quixtar. To say I am part of Quixtar would be like saying Walmart is part of black and decker. Black and decker supplies some of the products walmart sells however they are not part of them.
September 26th, 2007 at 10:26 am
220
Chris - so you have a deal where Quixtar distributes YOUR products? What are your exclusive products?
Since you are a smart business man, you know you signed a non-compete contract with your “supplier” and are not allowed to have any other company “provide distribution of your products and to do your accounting”
219 Utah - you quixtar business (if you are still ibo) comes up for renewal at the end of this year, Just DON’T RENEW. The Amway name change has not happenned yet.
218 Bridgett - you are a genius! Nice personality by the way.
Yes - Orrin Woodward signed up to be an Amway Distributor in what was it, 1995. Orrin received his business mentorship from his Amway upline. Stacking, etc… he learned from Amway IBOs.
Question - if TEAM got continue to exist in selling personal development tools through an mlm style of recruiting, etc… without a real mlm products/contract…. then what will happen? Anyone know the law? Will TEAM be an illegal pyramid, b/c they have zero retail sales, etc…?
September 26th, 2007 at 10:28 am
#214 Tex
I understand your concerns about the tool system and the profits that arise therefrom. I still feel, however, that the legal concern that is driving all of this is the integrity of the business model in terms of Quixtar’s ability to protect the orgnaizations and the IBO’s within them. How could anyone build a business if they were told upfront that at any point in time the entire organization, or some parts thereof, may simply walk away and start another competing business? That, to me, is the business model that TEAM is trying to tell Quixtar that they have to run. Quixtar in my opinion has absolutely no choice but to fight that.
#218 Bridget
You bring up the main moral point of this, as I see it. I too understand a desire to be loyal to people you have come to admire and respect. The words of the TEAM leaders have brought them that admiration and loyalty. When one pierces the veil of that image and looks at the actual actions taking place, however, there appears to have been a great deal of deception taking place by these leaders. When one’s words and one’s actions are not consistent, something is amiss.
#220 Chris
Of course you are part of Quixtar, that is the contract you signed with them. Putting that aside however, let’s approach this another way and have you ask yourself these questions. If you did in fact sign contracts with those companies, did those contracts not have contractual obligations? If you broke the terms of those obligations, were the consequences not set out? Would you expect those companies to let you out of those obligations simply because you suddenly claim you don’t like the way they are doing business?
Now ask yourself, is Quixtar doing anything different than any of those other companies would do if threatned with a breach of contract and the start up of a competing company?
September 26th, 2007 at 12:13 pm
#220 you are absolutly correct, contracts are contracts however Quixtar has sabotaged my contract causing them to be in breech of the contract… how did they sabotage my contract you might ask, they sent out a ltter to all north american IBO’s that was written in a derogotry and inflamitory slandering way, I am not part of the team however because of the email that Quixtar put out my business has not suffered and for that I beleive quixtar is in breech of my contract for sabotaging my buisness
September 26th, 2007 at 3:12 pm
Bridgett:
You said: “If you all hate Quixtar, then why did you sign a contract with them?”
My response: I don’t hate Quixtar, I feel betrayed by their actions against my team personally, but I don’t hate them. I didn’t feel this way when I signed the contract(obviously Bridgett)
You said: “Why is Quixtar getting the heat, when, from my vantage point, it should be your Upline who wasn’t honest (about the fact that TEAM is to play a supporting role to building a Quixtar business) and “forced” you to sign contracts with Quixtar?
You are once again making assumptions about TEAM. No one was forced to sign contracts with Quixtar. (Some may have felt misled by the non-compete that isn’t in the paperwork they signed- but forced to sign, I don’t think so.)
You also said: “And, from my vantage point, it would appear that we all have TEAM to thank for the name changing back to Amway. The Corp probably felt that this was the only way to get THEIR business model presented.”
This does not sound like someone who prefaces her comment by saying “I mean no disrespect. I mean no harm” but…..
since you are so confused and baffled let me share a few thoughts from someone on TEAM. I don’t think TEAM IBOs missed the fact that they signed up for both TEAM and Quixtar.
I think TEAM IBOs know that TEAM is their support and Quixtar is (was) their distributor.
TEAM was not showing us how to build a business other than Quixtar so I don’t get your point. They were showing how to build a business in Quixtar.
The part you may not get is they offered more than that. Building ourselves as leaders in our own lives. All parts not just the Quixtar part. You may consider your learning in your life a by-product but in my life is the main event.
A distributor will always just be a distributor to me. Quixtar never said they would be any more than that to me. I never said I would be anything more than a distributor for them.
September 26th, 2007 at 4:03 pm
#223 Chris
Although I disagree with your point of view (check your contract language and you will see that Quixtar retains the right to make changes to its business practices etc without notice), I respect your opinion. If you feel there is a breach of contract, however, then the breach of contract is what should be taken to a court for determination. Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, but that is not what is being alleged in court. What I understand is being alleged is that the Quixtar business is not viable/legal and the non-compete is not valid. That is a completely separate issue from a breach of contract dispute.
September 26th, 2007 at 5:54 pm
Thunderstruck,
O.K., the second time I put up #173, you caught it. Good for you and I give you credit for getting it. I am not going to respond to the “truth hurts doesn’t it” (post 208) comment. I think you and I are both better than that type of exchange.
Let’s you and I see if we can change the tenor of our discussion. I understand that you are passionate about you organization and the group you are a part of. I respect that and I do not wish you any ill will. I hope you do great in your life, business, etc.
I want to apologize to you for firing salvos across your bow. I’m disappointed in myself that I allowed it to happen. I, like you, am passionate about this business and sometimes allow that to get the best of me. Again, I hope you will accept my apology.
Now, without the “my dog is bigger than your dog” type comments, let’s see if you and I can find the truth. I only know what I read. I’m going to invite you to check this out, read it and tell me what you think. If I am wrong, I will tell you.
Go to:
http://freetheibo.com/courtdocuments.html
Read the document entitled, “Quixtar’s Opposition to Plaintiffs Motion for Preliminary Injunction. Scroll down to Exhibit A (I believe it is page 47). Page 48 of Exhibit A is the team customer contract. Go to the bottom of page 3 of the contract (page 50 of the complaint) and read the section entitled NON_COMPETITION #15. It continues and ends at the top of page 4 of the contract (page 53 of the complaint).
You may not have signed one of these, but at least the document exists and it has been filed in court as a part of the ongoing dispute between the parties. This looks to me like team has a one year non-compete within it’s own system.
I am not part of team and therefore did not have to sign one of these. This much we know, the document does exist. I’m asking you to read this and let me know what you think.
I’m not mad or trying to prove I’m right. I’m just looking for the truth in this whole mess. I hope you are too. Best wishes in all you do and I really do hope you do great. I appreciate your passion about what you do.
Hopefully a friend-pvbvguy
P.S. You can call me pvbyguy if you want, I won’t get mad.
September 26th, 2007 at 7:36 pm
#224 DLS Chicago:
You are confused (which is easy to understand since many of you TEAM people seem to think that you were signed up w/TEAM first and Quixtar second.) Q was never your “distributor” or supplier. You were THEIR distributor.
TEAM took unfair advantage of Q when it comes right down to it. They were given accreditation to be a support team, not to start their own business and pretend that Q is just a supplier and that TEAM is a stand alone business.
If what TEAM was doing was correct they could have built their support organization independently of Q. They wouldn’t have needed Q.
What kind of business do you think you can run that will not have a lot of overhead? Yes, Q has high prices. You don’t acquire quality products cheaply. They have a lot of employees to pay. They also paid your bonuses & incentives. You don’t think they really get to pocket every dime that they make from the products do you? (They just paid the Dornans a million bucks for achieving FAA status.)
I’m sure TEAM has taught you to become better people (though from some of the TEAM posts it does seem highly doubtful… many of you are full of venom and hateful remarks), but they seemed to fall short of teaching you any business sense. So far I’ve only heard regurgitations of what you have been told by Orrin. “High prices. Blah. Blah. Blah.”
You think TEAM is going to become the Walmart of the Internet? You do realize there’s a Walmart.com, right? Walmart doesn’t pay you anything for purchasing or selling their products. Good luck with that.
September 26th, 2007 at 10:39 pm
GirlPower,
It is interesting to me that you accuse others of lacking “business sense” and being “confused” about what they did or didn’t sign up for.
If your definition of “business sense” means lack of vision and traditional thinking, you may be correct. But, maybe, just maybe, there are some that see beyond the way things are, and look to the way things might be in the future.
And, you may want to consider that the way you were introduced to the Quixtar business was simply different than the way others were. Maybe some of us weren’t actually confused, but simply looked at the relationship between TEAM and Quixtar differently than you think we should have.
I wouldn’t presume to tell you how to see the future of your business, so please return the favor. And, if your intention is to continue under Amway, good luck with that.
September 26th, 2007 at 11:04 pm
Girl Power:
“You said: Q was never your “distributor” or supplier.”
Now you are confused. They were my supplier. And you’re right I was their distributor- I think I said that so ……no argument.
Thanks for the wishes of good luck……back atcha.
September 27th, 2007 at 12:26 am
whatever #216,
You have a lot of nerve trying to hijack the Quixtar business and use it as cover for your tool scam “leadership” program. The only aspect TEAM contributed was to bring much needed additional attention to the tool scam that is common with most other LOS/LOA organizations. Thanks for that.
Bridgett #218,
TEAM was different than most of the other tool systems, as they were more “in your face” regarding the tool profits. However, they were virtually identical to most of the other tool systems when it came to the tool profits created. In a perverse way, they were merely more honest about the tool scam, and it led to their downfall, but also helped further expose the tool scam the other systems continue to promote (except in the UK, of course, where the tool systems have been essentially shut down). I think you are giving TEAM a little too much credit for the name change, as this makes sense on several other levels. I have liked the idea since I first found out about it, because Amway will be forced to clean up the mess in order to survive, in my opinion. The negative reputation the name carries cannot support the continuing tool scam abuses that created the bad name recognition in the first place.
Utah #219,
You still have a 1999 choice. You can stay with Amway online or go back to Amway catalog with the 800 number. Your choice.
Chris #220,
You were taught well by TEAM. Quixtar does MUCH more than act as a supplier. Too bad the TEAM leaders never appreciated that.
dwilliams #221,
It depends how TEAM structures the payout (only those at the top versus everyone getting paid), but without tangible products, they will find it is much easier to be labeled as an illegal pyramid. The reason they and other tool companies are currently considered legal is because they pay only to the upper levels, with most IBO’s being the customers. TIF (Team in Focus) tried to pay all IBO’s for the tools, and got booted by Quixtar because they were considered an illegal pyramid. I have about 100 TIF tapes, and they sound remarkably similar to what TEAM preaches. I wouldn’t be surprised if there was some “cross-pollinization” going on between the 2 groups a few years ago.
BK #222,
No doubt the non-compete is important. However, it was the MASSIVE tool profit that allowed Orrin’s ego to expand to the point that he decided he didn’t need Quixtar. Same thing happened with TIF.
Chris #223,
Can you post or link to the letter you mentioned? If it is the one I’m thinking about, all it does is ask you if you are going to follow the rules.
DLSChicago #224,
The problem with TEAM (and most other tool companies) is the term “support”. The support part should not be the main source of profit, especially if it lowers the profit for most other IBO’s, and is not openly discussed with prospects and IBO’s as being the main source of profit for the upline, and main source of loss for most other IBO’s. It’s called lying. Didn’t your Mother teach you not to lie?
September 27th, 2007 at 3:25 am
GirlPower #227:
How can you say TEAM took advantage of Quixtar? You insinuate that TEAM used Quixtar with the intent to form a competing business. I suggest you read Mike McCormack’s affadavit of what happened on Aug. 9. Mike McCormack is an attorney who represented Randy Haugen and has worked with Quixtar on legal issues for many years now. The facts are that TEAM had no competing business plans on Aug 9, and showed up to talk. They even had a piece of paper prepared for Quixtar Legal to sign saying neither side would take any legal action untill further talks, by which they could possibly reach an amicable separation agreement. Mike Mohr said he would look it over and call in an hour or so. The call never came. The lawsuit was filed THREE HOURS after the promised one hour response, and after termination papers were issued with a complete refusal to talk by Quixtar legal.
What you need to understand is that the Quixtar business model is broken. Consider this: Since the launch in 1999, out of 700,000 IBOs, only 6 have made founders diamond or above, 5 of them came from TEAM. No matter what anyone tells you all of the large organizations like World Wide, Ron Puryear, Yager, Marker Man Productions, etc. have fewer IBOs today than they did 15 years ago. That is a fact. The only English Speaking organization that has grown since the launch of Quixtar is TEAM. And with the present and upcoming changes, things are getting worse. Things are very bleak indeed for the new IBO.
Fifteen years ago I went to 8 retirement parties in a six month period. Looking back over the last 7 years I know of one retirement party before we parnered with TEAM. How many you been to in the last year?
Understand that after making diamond and being elected to the board, Orrin tried for years to get the Corporation to work on the pricing issue, and the negative on the internet. Please read his letter to Doug DeVos written in 2005. Also understand Quixtar hasn’t been run by the founding families for many years now. They have been awash in so much litigation over the past couple of decades, that, out of necessity, the Legal Team at Q has complete control of the company. You can get a better understanding of this by reading Chuck Goetschel’s post (the first one).
September 27th, 2007 at 11:00 am
makingadiffernece #231,
What a joke. If TEAM didn’t have any plans to form a competing business, why did they request a shorter non-compete time period?
What you need to understand is that the Quixtar business model was broken by the tool scam. Orrin “Rosie Ruiz” Woodward grew only because he was breaking the rules for the past several years. And with the present and upcoming changes, led by the UK actions, things are getting better, not worse. Things are very bright indeed for the new IBO.
How many un-retirement parties did you go to? You know, the ones Randy Haugen mentioned? Looks like the retirement parties were simply smoke and mirrors.
Understand that after making diamond and being elected to the board, Orrin should have tried for years to get his own house in order first, and stop the tool scam within his own organization. Then he would have had some leverage with the Corporation to work on the pricing issue, and the negative on the internet would evaporate.
How do you know the Legal Team at Q has complete control of the company? Do you sit in their meetings?
September 27th, 2007 at 11:24 am
#228 & 229 whatever & DLSChicago:
Your responses have illustrated my point quite succinctly. TEAM was a support group, not a stand alone business. When recruiting they were supposed to be bringing people on board for Q. Not for the TEAM business. (”And oh, by the way, Q is our supplier”) What they taught you about the business was the complete opposite of the truth. (Probably because they were more interested in involving you in their BSM business than in helping you actually build the Q business.)
The truth that you were taught is untrue. You were taught only what Orrin thought would benefit his “movement”. I understand that none of you know any better. I’d want to believe someone who has had a positive impact on my life too. I honestly believe that he has blinded you all and allowed you to think that Q is some kind of villain. (A villain that Orrin chose to be a part of for years, until he was told that he couldn’t continue misleading you.) I understand your allegiance.
But I don’t agree with it. One of my co-worker’s, after reading the blogs here, made the comment that many of the TEAM responses are elaborated versions of “I’ve already made up my mind. Don’t confuse me with the facts.” She’s spot on with that. That’s how your responses come off to people who DO know the facts.
And just for the record, both my boyfriend and I are TEAM IBOs. He considers TEAM to be family. I consider them to be opportunists. He’s been in the business for 10+ years. I’ve been part of his downline for the last 5 years. (And yes, I was stacked below people that I’ve never met.) He chose not to leave Q. He likes the changes that are being made and isn’t afraid to relearn the business. He still considers TEAM to be family, but he isn’t blindly following them into oblivion.
September 27th, 2007 at 3:36 pm
Tex,
You seem to have an obsession with the “tools” issue, so it makes it difficult to really have any meaningful dialogue with you. If anyone is guilty of “hi-jacking” I’d say it would be you because that is what you try to do with every thread on this blog…no matter what the topic is supposed to be.
GirlPower,
I am glad that you and your boyfriend have found what you believe to be the right path for both of you. I choose a different path, just as I choose to see the relationship that existed between TEAM and Quixtar differently than you do. I don’t want to continue arguing the chicken or the egg with you, so I’ll simply agree to disagree with you.
September 27th, 2007 at 4:16 pm
GirlPower #233,
You go, Girl (but not in the TEAM “Just Go, TEAM” manner).
whatever #234,
I have an “obsession” with stopping the tool scam, you are right about that.
There is no “chicken and egg” scenario here. Amway was “born” in 1959, way before Orrin, who was physically born after this timeframe and not “born” into being an IBO until about 10-15 years ago. The egg came first and is Amway, and Orrin “Rosie Ruiz” Woodward is the chicken, in more ways than one. But he does have egg on his face!
September 27th, 2007 at 4:19 pm
Girlpower, If you feel your Quixtar is your best path, then I’m happy for you. I just ask the same in return.
It’s been a tough few weeks. I came to the blogs to get more info so I could feel that I made the best decision. I found that there are a lot of passionate folks out there building businesses. Arguments have gotten heated but in the end I learned a lot and I do wish the best for everyone in building whatever business they choose and fighting whatever cause they are fighting (Tex). Also, big thanks to the moderator.
Seriously, good luck to you and your boyfriend.
September 27th, 2007 at 4:19 pm
Moderator — where’s my post?
September 27th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
You can choose to disagree and see things however you’d like to, but it doesn’t make it right or correct. I suspect that if Orrin had told you that the moon was made of cheese and someone else told you that it wasn’t you’d still believe Orrin.
Take care.
September 27th, 2007 at 4:57 pm
Tex,
My usage of “chicken or the egg” wasn’t actually intended to reference the order in which Amway and TEAM came into existence. It was meant to illustrate an argument that goes around in circles. And, no matter what cute little nickname you give Orrin Woodward, I’m confident that when all is said and done in this there won’t be egg on his face. But, you’ll probably still be here blogging.
September 27th, 2007 at 5:29 pm
DLSChicago #236,
I wish you the best as well, assuming you are running an honest business.
September 27th, 2007 at 8:50 pm
Ohio IBO: Which one? Got an approx. date and time for me to look up?
September 27th, 2007 at 9:49 pm
whatever #239,
There are only circles going around in YOUR head, I am quite confident of the situation and am not confused/going in circles.
I think the Orrin “Rosie Ruiz” name is very accurate, and probably more of an insult to Rosie than Orrin. I don’t think she sued the Boston Marathon after she was caught cheating. Orrin already has plenty of egg on his face, 3 eggs in fact. Harteis, Wilson, and Haugen eggs. I’ll be here blogging until the overall tool scam gets cleaned up.
September 27th, 2007 at 11:29 pm
Tex,
You may be doomed to a life of frustration if you think blogging here is going to have any real impact on anything. Your use of personal attacks in place of facts to support your statements leaves you with very little credibility here. When you get some kind of verification that Wilson and Haugen have broken away from Woodward, please feel free to share it. They are all probably laughing at your posts over coffee right now.
September 28th, 2007 at 12:39 am
Tex,
Please, just stop. You’re beginning to look foolish and blinded by hate.
And “Rosie” is a stupid label.
September 28th, 2007 at 9:41 am
whatever #243,
You should have googled “blogging influence” prior to making that statement, because you’re wrong. Especially considering we’re talking about an online business and an MLM. Big mistake. Big. Huge. Mistake.
I have provided plenty of facts, you need to breath in and out a few times and read with a more open attitude.
They have left Orrin “Rosie Ruiz” Woodward isolated to fend for himself in the lawsuit, what more do you need to know about your former TEAMmates?
They can laugh over their coffee all they want, my PV is bigger than all of them combined this month. Plus, we know much more about the tool scam thanks to their statements and the court case documents.
September 28th, 2007 at 11:09 am
Tex,
More than ever, you just illustrated why you don’t have any real understanding of TEAM. I’m sure you don’t know why, but others on TEAM will see it clearly. I could try to explain it to you, but I will instead use the time to “breath in and out a few times” because you would likely just find some way to twist my words to your own liking.
Good luck with your blogging career.
September 28th, 2007 at 1:57 pm
Jerad #244,
Please, just stop? Why, am I getting to you? That means it’s time to pour it on, thanks for the signal.
I’m beginning to look foolish and blinded by hate? Getting pretty hot in the kitchen, isn’t it? Perhaps it is you who are foolish and blinded by ignorance.
“Rosie” is a stupid label, assigned to a stupid man. The shoe fits, and he wears it well.
September 28th, 2007 at 11:01 pm
Tex, Tex, Tex. You state your pv is bigger than all of theirs. I admit, your 100 PV is more (if you do 100). However, please understand, you have, in writing, admitted to breaking Quixtar rules. If Quixtar fails to take action against you (i.e. termination) then they are opened up to civil recourse because they clearly do not enforce the rules of conduct equally to everyone. I, as a current IBO am taking great offense at a flagrant admission of your rule breaking that I have operated by for a while now. When I learn and have evidence of an IBO admitting they broke the rules of conduct, I feel it is my duty to make sure that action is taken. Yes, the blog is taken down now, but that doesn’t mean that I didn’t print it out while it was still up where you say you went to “3 or 4 open meetings and a seminar where tools were sold in the back” and also said you had several cd’s from Team as well as from other organizations. You also said you had no problem with what was on the cd’s. Therefore, I am taking a personal interest in this. The way I see it, in a month from now, you will be posting on here as a former ibo, if the corporation enforces it’s rules. If the corporation does nothing, then they have violated the agreement I have with them and are in breach of contract. Your differening opinion is just that - an opinion. You are entitled to that. I even fought for this country so that you can say this stuff. However, you are not entitled to flaunt your disregard for rules we are all supposed to operate our business’ under. You say the corporation needs to clean up the “tool scam” in the business. They will take over tools so they can profit off of them. That might be how they maintain the Jay Factor. Lower the prices of the products a little so they can try to become a legal business, but make up for it with tool profits for themselves. I think equally pressing is to clean up the cross-lining. I will make sure it starts with the only person I know that has admitted to it - in writing on a blog hosted by the company that they are breaking the rules of. It would be like somebody at work going around telling their coworkers they were stealing from the company. Not real smart.
September 28th, 2007 at 11:25 pm
pvbvguy, you say since 9/1 the organization your a part of has seen a huge jump in sponsoring. I see a lot of posts on here from you. Have you shown 15 plans this month?
As for me - I am not showing plans anymore. After the corporation has admitted that only 3.4% of it’s business is retail sales, I cannot promote this as a legitimate business. If I do, I put myself at legal risk. I have already lost a friend who said I lied to him because I told them this wasn’t Amway, and now it is.
September 29th, 2007 at 5:04 am
pvbvguy #226
I am sorry this response took so long. I really do appreciate your post. yes, I am very passionate about TEAM, not because what it may have done for me but because what it has enabled me to become. None of this had to do with the products, but our system.
In response to the non-compete rule. I am in position in the business where I received copies of every IBO signup. Over the last days since your post I have been reading hundreds of them and have not found ANY that have this clause. I am really puzzled by this because the first time I even heard about it was thru this blog, and I’ve been in for several years. The only true conclusion I can come up is this is a false document submitted by Quixtar. I know this appears outrageous, why would they do this? Frankly, I don’t know because you would think they couldn’t get away with it in court. But this I do know for a fact, before I resigned there was alot of questionable events happening with my business and Q. Things like being given 9 new customers within a week, and all turned out to be fake. I’m serious. And I am not the only one to experience this.
I do know this for a fact also, I personally know both Orrin and Chris. I know what they stand for, and where their passion is. They don’t have a dishonest bone in their bodies. There has been alot of spin and accusations and name calling on both sides, and like yourself, I am somewhat ashamed to get caught up in it. I really do appreciate your post, and I too am sorry for my belligerent remarks, it was never personal, just business. However, I need to focus on the positive. I love where our TEAM business is heading and that is where my focus will remain. Whatever comes out of this I wish you the very best.
September 29th, 2007 at 6:50 pm
whatever #246,
More than ever, you just illustrated why you don’t have any real understanding of TEAM. I’m sure you don’t know why, but others on TEAM will see it clearly. I could try to explain it to you, but I will instead use the time to “breath in and out a few times” because you would likely just find some way to twist my words to your own liking.
Good luck with your blogging career.
September 29th, 2007 at 7:14 pm
jd #248,
jd, jd, jd. I stated my pv is bigger than all of theirs because it’s true. I admit, my 100 PV is more (as I do at least 100). However, please understand, which Quixtar rules did I say I broke? You, as a current IBO taking great offense at me not breaking any rules, should explain yourself. When you learn the rules and have evidence of an IBO breaking the rules of conduct, you should feel it is your duty to make sure that action is taken. But first, tell me the rule I broke. I’ll say it again, I went to 3 or 4 open meetings and a seminar where tools were sold in the back and also said I had several cd’s from Team as well as from other organizations. There is no rule being broken here, you were taught wrong by your upline. I also said I had no problem with MOST of what was on the cd’s. Therefore, I am taking a personal interest in this. The way I see it, in a month from now, you will be posting on here as a former ibo, if an IBO is required to know the rules to stay in. If the corporation does nothing, then they have allowed those of inferior understnding to remain as an IBO. No breach of contract, just REALLY low standards. Your differing and incorrect opinion is just that - an incorrect opinion. You are entitled to that. I even fought for this country so that you can say this stuff. However, you are also entitled to flaunt your lack of knowledge and understanding for rules we are all supposed to operate our businesses under. I say the corporation needs to clean up the “tool scam” in the business. They don’t have to “take over tools so they can profit off of them”, just make the profit transparent. The “Jay Factor” isn’t anything more than normal markup, as is shown in the TEAM Open plans. “Lower the prices of the products a little so they can try to become a legal business, but make up for it with tool profits for themselves”? What a silly idea. I think equally pressing is to clean up the understnding what cross-lining is, and what is allowed by rule, and what is being bent out of shape by the upline so they can continue the tool scam. I will make sure it starts with the only person I know that has admitted to it - in writing on a blog hosted by the company that they are totally ignorant of the meaning of the rules. It would be like somebody at work going around telling their coworkers they were stealing from the company, when they really weren’t. Not real smart.
September 29th, 2007 at 7:24 pm
jd #249,
pvbvguy said since 9/1 the organization he’s a part of has seen a huge jump in sponsoring. I see a lot of posts on here from you. Perhaps instead of learning why this is so, you should educate yourself on the rules, then ask pvbvguy how they have been having good results, instead of virtually calling him a liar because he posts “a lot” and insinuating he can’t do that AND show 15 plans in a month.
As for you - you should not show plans until you learn the rules.
After the corporation has admitted that only 3.4% of it’s business is retail sales, you should figure out how to sell more, rather than follow your upline’s instruction on how to fake out the computer, as was done by Marks and Brady on their court documents.
Legal risk? You put yourself at legal risk by lying to Quixtar regarding your level of retail sales.
You should have lost a friend who said you lied to him because you told them this wasn’t Amway, because you probably didn’t even tell him it was Quixtar. and now it is. You DID lie to him by not explaining to him the relationship between Amway and Quixtar. Now you are reaping the seeds of the weeds you sowed. Good job.
September 29th, 2007 at 7:44 pm
Thunderstruck #250,
I am sorry you didn’t take longer to respond, because this one shows lack of thinking. Take longer next time. Whatever it takes, right?
I really do appreciate your post, because it so well illustrates you are saying virtually NOTHING. Yes, you are very passionate about TEAM. “…not because what it may have done for me but because what it has enabled me to become. None of this had to do with the products, but our system.” What the *$(#&@ does THAT mean? Do you know that all the other tool system speakers say virtually the same thing about their systems? Pure rubbish, trying to make it sound good while ripping off people.
In response to the non-compete rule. You are in position in the business where you received copies of every IBO signup? What level is that? Over the last days since pvbvguy’s post you have been reading hundreds of them and have not found ANY that have this clause? That’s because the contract isn’t for new IBO’s, it’s for those who make tool profits. You are really puzzled by this because the first time you even heard about it was thru this blog, and you’ve been in for several years? You must not be getting TEAM tool profits, am I right? Or perhaps the tool profits aren’t distributed as fairly as you’ve been lead to believe. The only true conclusion you can come up is this is a false document submitted by Quixtar? Are you serious? Don’t you think TEAM would have squealed about this by now if it were true, they need ANY kind of a victory after Wilson and Haugen ditched Orrin “Rosie Ruiz” Woodward. Just like when we were kids and you told your little brother to “go long” for a pass, kept telling him to keep going, keep going, further, further, then you ditched him. I wonder if Orrin still has the same silly smile on his face after he got ditched by his “big Amway brothers”. You know this appears outrageous, why would you even suggest this? Because there is no honor among crooks. Frankly, I don’t know why you would believe this because you wouldn’t get away with it in court. But this I do know for a fact, before you resigned there was alot of questionable events happening with my business and Q. Things like being given 9 new customers within a week, and all turned out to be fake. This is probably because a few people got together to play with your mind. Mission accomplished. I’m serious. And I am not the only one to have this theory.
You do know this for a fact also, you personally know both Orrin and Chris? You didn’t even know they had a tool contract where people were required to keep the tool scam secret. You don’t know them as much as you think you do. I know what they stand for, and where their passion is? Check your back pocket, they are passionate about extracting as much tool cash as possible. They don’t have a dishonest bone in their bodies? I think the court documents indicate otherwise. There has been alot of spin and accusations and name calling on both sides, and like yourself, I am somewhat ashamed to get caught up in it? I’m not, sometimes you have to get a little dirty to clean up the crap. I really do appreciate your post, and I am not sorry for my belligerent remarks, it was never personal, just business. However, I need to focus on the positive. I love where your TEAM business is heading and that is where my focus will remain. Whatever comes out of this I wish you the very best, asssuming you aren’t trying to set up another scam operation.
September 30th, 2007 at 4:54 pm
Thunderstruck,
It was great to hear back form you. I agree that if any of the parties in court are trying to pull a fast one; they will be found out. I’m sure the non-compete will be challenged in court if it is in fact fradulent.
I can’t comment on the customer thing you experienced although I will admit that it sounds really wierd.
It’s too bad that this whole thing has happened and I know there are a lot of good people on both sides of this issue.
I understand your wanting to stay with your upline and the people who have obviously helped you in your life. I, like you, wish you all the best in your life, business, relationships, etc. I’m sure wherever your life leads, you will do well!
October 1st, 2007 at 11:56 am
#250 Thunderstruck..
Weichert Realtors Acclaim 570-629-6720 fax
is the source of the Team non-compete and the Team payment for speaking information. (Public information, Alticor/Quixtar didn’t remove this from the fax when they submitted the document). Attachement A.
I have not read anyone that actually signed this particular document. I have no way of knowing if the document was fake, or just not always used.
October 1st, 2007 at 12:29 pm
pvbvguy #255,
That was such a sweet message, I think I caught diabetes just by reading it.
What do you mean by “pulling a fast one”? That is what both sides try to do in court, and it’s up to the other side to catch them.
TEAM isn’t challenging the non-compete per se, they have to get Quixtar ruled as an illegal pyramid first, because they know the non-compete by itself is reasonable.
I already commented on the customer thing.
It is a good thing thing whole thing has happened, it will be looked upon as a positive turning point in the business years down the road. There are NOT “good people” on the TEAM side.
I hope he does stay with his upline, he doesn’t belong in an ethical or moral business. I wish him well also, as long as he doesn’t try to scam others like he does with TEAM.
October 1st, 2007 at 1:15 pm
Tex #254
First off, you need to take a lesson from pvbvguy, while at first we had bitter responses to each other, he, and I give him all the credit, realized that intelligent corresponses without the attack show character. In response, we had what I believe is a fair exchange of ideas and thoughts. You on the other hand…. no, I wont go there.
Anyway, to answer some of your belligerent but nonintelligent accusations and commments:
1) When you signed up with TEAM, the application had information for BOTH TEAM and Quixtar, including tool info. By the way, I didn’t get copies of EVERY signup, just copies of the signups in my LOS. Just checked again, still can’t find any no compete. What is a no compete with a tool system anyway? You mean if I leave TEAM, I can’t be part of a business that sells books? I couldn’t work for Barnes and Noble? What about CD’s, lots of self help stuff out there (just non better than ours)! The accusation that we have a no compete is nonsense, just more Q crap.
2) Yes, I do receive tool bonus money, yes I do understand the profit sharing bonus structure, and no, it is not a scam.
3) Regarding Randy and Ron, you better understand what is happening before you make accusations about them abandoning Orrin and Chris cause you could look real foolish in the end.
4)Who played with my mind with new (but fake) customers? Orrin? Chris? My Mother? My Dog? Or maybe Quixtar? Afterall, they are the ones who sent me emails regarding these customers. Funny how emails came back undeliverable.
5)Again, I do know Orrin and Chris and know where their loyalty and integrity is.
Do me (and everyone else) a favor and don’t respond to this as this is the only response I will send you. Unlike pvbvguy your heart isn’t in finding the truth, it’s just to stir and spin and complain and ….. boy you must have a lonely life. But I do wish you luck in your future endevours. I hope you seek anger management. Life is too short for negative.
October 1st, 2007 at 1:26 pm
pvbvguy #255
Thanks, nice post. I know the customer thing sounds weird, I am not the only one this has happened to either. In the past, I was given maybe a customer per year, maybe two. But to get nine? And in one week ? Also, all previous customers had a name, address, and phone number so I could contact them, these had none of that.
It is really a shame all of this had to happen. I find a non compete clause funny though. Because if the “Mother Business” took care of its’ people, who would want to leave? This is for any business. I am self employeed, and had sub contractors at one point thus I had contracts with them for each project. But would never force something like this on them. And guess what? Some left. One even stole from me! But my business didn’t get hurt by this because I still “took care of my business” and couldn’t worry about them.
I too wish you the best in your business. One thing for sure is alot of people are learning alot of different business practices and aspects with all of this, and hopefully, we all come out ahead in the end. That way, we all win.
October 1st, 2007 at 11:05 pm
Tex#247,
It’s stupid to call Orrin “Rosie.” There’s no getting around that.
However my friend, you are not “getting to me.” The only thing you are getting is “boring.” In another thread you’ve said that we can’t deal with the “facts” you bring up.
Huh?
What facts? The only thing you’ve ever brought up were unfounded accusations. Don’t pass them as fact and then say that we are failing because we don’t treat these warrentless claims as fact. You choose what you believe based only on your predjudice against all tool systems…not facts.
October 2nd, 2007 at 8:24 am
Utah #256,
Not removing the document leads me to believe it was TEAM, not Quixtar, that didn’t want IBO’s to know how much was being made on tools. After all, tools are a separate business from Quixtar, right?
Thunderstuck #258,
First off, you need to take a hike. I’m not here to be sugary sweet with liars and cowards, I’m here to call a spade a spade. If you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen. I stick to facts, personal attacks only come in response to others when they attack me. Get a grip. Your “intelligent corresponses” are nothing more than being overly nice and covering up the nature of the real problems. You can’t “talk nice” about a scam. Period.
Anyway, to answer some of your belligerent but nonintelligent accusations and commments:
1) When I signed up with TEAM, I had already been with Quixtar (and Amway) for several years. What “tool info” are you talking about? As I said above, I dont’ think anyone except those getting paid for tools are supposed to see the tool profit issue. Otherwise, who would be keeping the secret from, if ALL IBO’s signed it? A no compete with a tool system
means you can’t use another tool system and make money from it for one year. This applies if you leave TEAM and stay with Quixtar. Orrin “Rosie Ruiz” Woodward doesn’t want you to be able to take your group and the tool scam money they create to another tool system. You could be part of a business that sells books, as long as you don’t sell the books to your downline (or probably other TEAM IBO’s) and make money from those sales. Same with CD’s, etc. You need to get a grip, as this is ALL about tool profits.
2) You receive tool bonus money, understand the profit sharing bonus structure? Please do tell, how much money, what is your PV level? Your answer (or lack thereof) will determine whether it is a scam or not.
3) Regarding Randy and Ron, you better understand what is happening before you make excuses about them abandoning Orrin and Chris cause you could look real foolish in the end.
4)Who played with my mind with new (but fake) customers? Orrin? Chris? My Mother? My Dog? Or maybe Quixtar? Afterall, they are the ones who sent me emails regarding these customers. Funny how emails came back undeliverable. Ask Hillary, it’s probably a vast right-wing conspriracy. Why does this even matter, you’re not going to service these customers anyway, right? Guess Quixtar will have to give them to a real IBO. If I was a Quixtar employee, I would have called the corp to find an IBO, just to see how I would be treated and mess with your mind. After all, you are threatening their job (in the state with the worst economy, by far, in the entire country) by supporting a lawsuit trying to get them declared an illegal pyramid.
5)Again, I do know Orrin and Chris and know where their loyalty and integrity is, and it is like the rest of the tool profiteers, extracting as much tool scam money from my pocket as possible, and lying about it.
Do me (and everyone else) a favor and respond to this, as this is only the first response I will send you. Unlike me, your heart isn’t in finding the truth, it’s just to stir and spin and complain and ….. boy you must have a boring life. But I do wish you luck in your future endevours. I hope you seek knowledge
management. Life is too short for ignorance.
October 2nd, 2007 at 8:34 am
Utah #256
Thanks for the post. Who is this Weichert Realtors? Why would they have this supposed non compete document? I have been in the tool profit sharing for over 4 years and I never signed one of these and in fact, never even heard of it. Spoke to some teammates who also are in the tool profit sharing and they concur. This is really strange. I can’t imagine it was a document only “sometimes used”, Orrin and Chris wouldn’t be sloppy like that. Everytime Q changed on us (and they did it ALOT with there adding rules about sending in documents, BSMAA, and the like), Orrin and Chris (and the other leaders) made sure EVERYONE did proper documentation.
AS for Speaking fees, I think the speakers should be paid a fee. Heck, I’ve been paid speaking fees with TEAM. If you serve, you get rewarded. That is the base of tool money also. Most of these people believe Orrin and Chris got “rich off of us” by selling tools. They don’t understand that there is a tool profit sharing formula in place, and, if you did the work and built your business bigger than any leader or person for that matter, you got paid more. I had team members below me get perks I didn’t, but that is because they did the work and derserved it.
October 2nd, 2007 at 10:20 am
Thunderstruck #258
Help me understand your comment “The accusation that we have a no compete is nonsense, just more Q crap.”
Is it not TEAM that is taking Quixtar to court to be released from the non-compete clause? If so, is TEAM not openly agreeing that there is a non-compete, and that they just do not want to comply with it?
October 2nd, 2007 at 12:12 pm
BK #263
Yes, Team wants to be released from its’ non compete with Quixtar. The no compete I first mentioned is the one others are claiming Team has with it’s own tool system. How could we ask to get out of a non compete with someone if we have our own? That doesn’t make any sense. Even this so called published TEAM tool non compete I believe is bogus. I have never seen nor heard of it, and I am in the tool profit sharing.
I would find it hard to believe that a company would simply make up a document and present it in court. But, based on all of the tactics Q has done in the last 6 weeks I truly believe this is what they did. We will surely find out soon. One thing is for sure. If TEAM does have a no compete with its tool system, but is asking to get out of a no compete with Q. I’m done. I can’t stand hypocrisy.
October 2nd, 2007 at 1:03 pm
Tex,
I noticed (#257) you didn’t like the tone of my response to Thunderstruck. That’s O.K., but you have to realize that there are different styles and different ways to confront people.
I enjoy your posts but I think you and I would agree that you are more confrontational. I’m not that way; I’d rather try to sift through issues without bringing all the name calling into the dialogue.
I agree with you that the team guys are trying to get this business as we know it declared illegal; that would in essence get them released from the non-compete. I’m not disputing that at all.
My comments with the non-compete go all the way back to a post by Wendi (#156) that I responded to (#170). Thunderstruck responded to my post (#174)and we got into a lively discussion about the non-compete. Our posts were all centered around whether team had a non-compete or not. I think if you read the string; you see that the worst that came out of it was an agreement to disagree or that over a period of time, the truth will come out.
I think the team guys are in a very different business than the one we are in. Their leadership took a concept (stacking) that others have told me has been used several times in the history of this business and with other multi-levels. They added their twists to it and away they went.
I also disagree with you; I think there are probably “a lot” of great people in the team deal. Many of them only know what they have been taught and are told. I enjoyed Thunderstruck and his comments and appreciate the fact that he is loyal to the people and the concept he was “raised” in. It seems to me he has had some success in his business and it is natural for him to want to defend that.
That’s to me why a blog can be good. It’s a chance for someone who may be in LOS vacuum to get other opinions. When we have meaningful dialogue with people; progress is made.
I don’t think Quixtar, the various lines of sponsorship or the DeVos and VanAndel families are perfect or without blame in this whole team mess. I know if I ever find a perfect anything; I won’t join in it because I would wreck the perfection.
The real tragedy of the whole team mess is that a lot of people who were not decision makers and who choose to be loyal and are passionate about what they do, will be hurt.
Because of the decisions of a few, this whole thing will play out in the courts and the war of words will go on for years. No one will really win in this and it “is” tragic for those who are caught in the vortex.
Throughout history the decisions that leaders make have great or grave impact on the people who are part of their country, business, organization, etc. If more “leaders” kept that in mind when making decisions, I believe the world would be a better place.
Tex, I may have what you consider a “pollyanna” or “rose-colored glasses” way of looking at the world, but it is the way I have chosen to live my life. You have your style, I have mine.
October 2nd, 2007 at 1:10 pm
Jerad #260,
It’s not stupid to call Orrin “Rosie”, if he has earned the name. And he has, there’s no getting around that.
However my “friend”, you are not using any facts to support your position. The only thing you are showing is your ignorance. In another thread I said that you can’t deal with the facts I bring up.
Huh? What facts? The only thing you’ve ever brought up were solid facts. I pass them as facts because they are words from your own “teammates” and “business partners”, in court documents and various blogs, including this one. You choose what you believe based only on your predjudice against all Non-Orrinites…not facts.
BK #262,
Please do not confuse Thunderstruck with the facts. His response will be “This does not compute, this does not compute, Danger Will Robinson, Danger…”, because he is truly “Lost in Space”.
Thunderstruck #263,
Perhaps you are not in the “real” tool profit stream, they’re just throwing you crumbs. You must not be “loyal” (read: brown-nosed) enough to participate in the tool scam. How much do you get paid, and what’s your PV? Is it in line with the amounts listed in the document? You mean you’re done with TEAM? How many TEAM members would also be done with TEAM if the document was accurate? Don’t you think TEAM would have squealed by now if the document was bogus? Sounds to me like TEAM is crumbling as we speak.
October 2nd, 2007 at 3:00 pm
Tex,
It appears that you have confused the word “facts” with the word “opinions”. Thank you for sharing your opinions. Please don’t think that by repeating them over and over and over and over and over again they somehow become facts.
When you copy and paste this statement and change it around to insult me, please try to make it funny. Thanks.
October 2nd, 2007 at 4:00 pm
TEX #257
“There are NOT “good people” on the TEAM side.”
Who do you think you are to judge thousands of people and call them all “not good” ?
You sanctimonious, snot nosed old bugger !
I think your pointing your finger at people for “tool scamming” and then lumping an entire group of individuals with such a statement tells us all more about you than anything you’ve said up to this point.
You don’t know me, my friends, my family or
( I’m assuming here ) 99.9% of the people in the Team. How dare you state your opinion of my ethics, faith or morals without personal knowledge of actions that I have taken ? Don’t like my actions or my words ? Great…say so. We’ll continue this dialogue. But judge my person, my very character ? You’re so pathetic !!
October 2nd, 2007 at 4:19 pm
pvbvguy #264,
You are free to use whatever tone you want to use, so am I.
I am definitely more confrontational, I am fed up with the multi-decade, millions of negatively affected Distributors/IBO’s, and hundreds of millions to billions of dollars they have been ripped off. I you can’t get excited about that, check your pulse. I’ve already sifted through the issues, you are free to sift for your own comfort level. The name calling starts from their side. I have learned through the experience of other blogs you must conduct yourself as if you were in a trial, and let it all hang out, because the other side will, whether you’re nice or nasty.
As you stated, the Berlin wall and the Quixtar non-compete is a very poor analogy. Gets the TEAM troops “fired up”, however. I’m satisfied TEAM has a non-compete, aren’t you?
I think the team guys are in a very similar business than the one we are in. Their leadership took a concept (tool scamming) that I know and others have told me has been used several times in the history of this business and perhaps with other multi-levels. They added their twists to it and away they went.
I also agree with you; I think there are “a lot” of great people in the team deal, but none of them are not aware of the tool scam, or have not thought it through. Anyone who can lie to their “teammates” and “business partners” are not “great people” to me.
Many of them only know what they have been taught and are told, and that’s the problem, they have been lied to.
I enjoyed Thunderstruck and his comments and appreciate the fact that he is loyal to the people and the concept he was “raised” in, but he hasn’t realized what a scam it is.
It seems to me he has had some success in his business and it is natural for him to want to defend that, and needs to learn, as Paul Harvey would say, “The rest of the story”.
That’s to me why a blog can be good. It’s a chance for someone who may be in LOS vacuum to get other opinions. When we have meaningful dialogue with people; progress is made.
I don’t think Quixtar, the various lines of sponsorship or the DeVos and VanAndel families are perfect or without blame in this whole team mess either, and have clearly stated their issues. Don’t worry about ever finding a perfect anything; it doesn’t exist (at least on this planet), but that doesn’t mean I have to accept something that is fundamentally unethical and immoral, either.
The real tragedy of the whole team mess is that a lot of people who were not decision makers and who choose to be loyal and are passionate about what they do, will be hurt, and it goes far beyond the TEAM LOS/LOA.
Because of the decisions of a few, this whole thing will play out in the courts and the war of words could go on for years. Quixtar will eventually win in this and it “is” tragic for those innocents who are caught in the vortex.
I agree that throughout history the decisions that leaders make have great or grave impact on the people who are part of their country, business, organization, etc. If more “leaders” kept that in mind when making decisions, I also believe the world would be a better place. However, many real leaders in the past have been effectively ignored, and the power of the internet and blogs allows real leadership principles to come forward.
I don’t think you have a “pollyanna” or “rose-colored glasses” way of looking at the world, but sometimes bullies have to be confronted, and it is the way I have chosen to handle this issue. You have your style, I have mine. I think it is a matter of how much we know about the issues and our type of personality. I don’t think less of you for responding the way you do, it just doesn’t “fit” what I know and how I have chosen to respond to what’s going on.
October 2nd, 2007 at 6:07 pm
Thanks pvbv. I really do appreciate your honest perspective.
Here is what I learned through the blogs and sites…..
I think that to Q/Amway having many LOSs is a bit like the story of the tower of Babel. The old (and many current) tool profit systems ensured the tower would only continue to produce new towers all speaking different languages (albeit ever so slowly as of late)
I learned this when I read Randy Haugen’s post about how all along he never knew how TEAM worked. Double diamond+ levels didn’t even know how each other worked the Q businesses! (hence your vacuum reference)
I think that Q/Amway was on the fence about TEAM’s success for a some time. They liked the volume and growth but didn’t like the power that the growth could give the LOS. And with the TEAM profit sharing structure, diamonds didn’t leave TEAM to build their own towers. In fact the opposite was becoming true.
I believe the straw that broke the camel’s back happened months before 8/9. I think it happened when Legacy and other LOSs started joining TEAM. The towers began to merge. This is what I think started the war.
Before this happened, Amway supported and encouraged TEAM. They even created a custom SA4400 for the two team at a time depth building structure. TEAM’s prospecting materials were approved by Q/Amway and even had some materials accredited (new process.) Q/Amway even asked Orrin to be the star speaker at big Q/Amway functions.
What really happened to cause such a messy divorce? We’ve read many first hand accounts and many second hand opinions. Sifting through it all there are truths from different perspectives. There’s also a fair mix of twisted truths and even a few flat out lies.
The one thing I can say is that I do believe when a marriage dissolves it is never only one person’s fault. I think it is the same here. My decision is to follow TEAM but not blindly. I recommend the same for those who choose to stay in Q/Amway.
October 2nd, 2007 at 6:44 pm
The Non-compete team agreement in the Quixtar filing that no-one has seen before…this explains why..
From the Forum.freetheibo [ no it is not my post ]
by Barrister on Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:06 pm
I want to take this opportunity to address a rumor floating around regarding the Team contract. As I visit various blogs and peruse the IBO forum, I notice that several bloggers are under the impression that the Team contract contains a non-compete provision. As the Chief Legal Counsel for Team, I can assure everyone that the rumor is false.
During my tenure as in-house attorney for Team, there has not been a single contract executed with a non-compete. Initially, the agreement contained a non-compete after a Quixtar appointed lawyer drafted the agreement. When the non-compete was brought to the Policy Council’s attention, they reviewed the document and decided that the provision ran contrary to their core beliefs in free enterprise. Since they were building a business of volunteers, the non-compete provision was counter-intuitive to their stated goals of serving the customer. As such, the provision was deleted. I hope this clarifies any confusion on the issue.
October 2nd, 2007 at 9:42 pm
Tex#265,
Taking a person’s post and rewording it very irritaing. And if you want to take quotes and use them against the author by taking them out of context then…WAIT AS MINUTE! I’ve just figured out who you are!
Hey everybody! Look! It’s Michael Moore!
But, my friend, these “quotes taken out of context” cannot be considered fact.
October 2nd, 2007 at 10:25 pm
Tex,
I thought you would like my comment about being done. Truth is, TEAM has been very good to me in ways you’ll never understand. And the answer is I will always be loyal.
Regarding your comments about my PV. The answer is I left the Q, so I no longer have PV. I won’t tell you what my PIN level was but I promise you it was substantial. And yes, I was in the “real” tool system, and if what I received were “crumbs” all I have to say is it sure is filling.
Question I have is why do tools and profit bother you so much? I have had many people tell me how our system has helped them not just with their team business but also with friends, marriage, work. The teaching transcends MLM stuff. Do you also think that anyone with self help tapes and books shouldn’t get paid? What about people such as Zig Zigler, Anthony Robbins, Wayne Dyer, and all the others that have helped countless millions of people? I am really perplexed by this. I do admire your voracity, if you channeled this into positive, you could really make something of yourself.
October 2nd, 2007 at 11:46 pm
Tex #261 re: #256
The document showing the Team payout for speaking at meetings and the reported non-compete clause was submitted to the court by Quixtar. This clause, (See #269 from Team) was created by a Quixtar Attorney a while ago, according to the post, and not used by Team. I do not know if the rest of the document was, hence I don’t know if the pay info was correct.
As mentioned in #256, The source of the document to Quixtar was a real estate company. That being said, the information was left online by a pro Team website with the other court cases.
Based on the above, your comments, as usual do not make sense.
You are fighting all tool systems, Team and Quixtar. You are an IBO. Your motives are at best confusing.
I am an IBO. Was surprised by both Q/A actions and Team’s action on Aug. 10th. I would like this go back to June of 2007 and the Corporation to this time be smart enough to give the IBO’s the choice we were given in 1999. Obviously that isn’t happening. I am also crushed that the IBOAI doesn’t have any real power, as Q/A is rolling over them, even though the Corporation had promised that they wouldn’t change anything without the board. I am glad the new board agreement is signed, but I don’t see any movement to change the direction of Q/A and after 16 years, I am seeing it fail. I don’t want it to fail, but they are not listening to reason.
October 3rd, 2007 at 12:06 am
#262 Thunderstruck,
See #271 for a copy of post from forum.freeibo about the non-compete clause that was dropped an not used. I don’t know why Quixtar would use a faxed form that was sent from the realtor’s office, nor who is at that specific office or why. I was amazed that Quixtar left the top portion of the faxed form, because it showed the source of the form.
October 3rd, 2007 at 1:28 am
whatever #267,
It appears that you have confused the word “facts” with the word “opinions”. Thank you for sharing your opinions. Please don’t think that by repeating them over and over and over and over and over again they somehow become facts.
When you copy and paste this statement and change it around to insult me, please try to make it funny? That’s a lot of pressure to put on someone that “amazed” thinks lives in Europe. By the way, I didn’t have to change a word in the first paragraph, it was already pretty “funny”. How’s that? Funny enough?
dannie #268,
I defined who I regard as the “good people” on TEAM. And how did you know my nose has been snotty lately?
I think your pointing your finger at me intead of the “tool scammers” tells us all more about you than anything you’ve said up to this point.
I don’t know you, your friends, your family or
( I’m assuming here ) 99.9% of the people in the Team. I don’t have to know you or any others, I just have to know where you stand on the unethical and immoral secret tool scam.
How dare I state my opinion of your ethics, faith or morals without personal knowledge of actions that you have taken? See above.
I don’t like your actions or your words? Great…I said so. We’ll continue this dialogue. But judge your person, your very character? You’re so lost!!
DLSChicago #270,
You didn’t see the multi-year, laundry list Quixtar had with Orrin “Rosie Ruiz” Woodward? I think Quixtar treated them like a cheating spouse, trying to give TEAM opportunity after opportunity to straighten themselves out, but TEAM just kept cheating, until Quixtar was forced to “divorce” them.
Utah #271,
Didn’t this post show up on another thread already?
Jerad #272,
Taking a person’s post and rewording it very irritaing? I know that, that’s why I do it.
And if I want to take quotes and use them against the author by taking them in context then…WAIT AS MINUTE! You’ve just figured out who I am! Hey everybody! Look! It’s Michael Moore! Nice try, but that is the name of one of the main Quixtar lawyers. I’m sure he gets razzed about that all the time.
But, my “friend”, these “quotes taken in context” can be considered fact.
Hint: To not be as irritated, just try doing something less irritating, like dragging your nails down a chalk board.
October 3rd, 2007 at 1:51 am
Thunderstruck #273,
You thought I would like your comment about being done. Truth is, TEAM has been very good to you in ways I’ll never understand? And the answer is you will always be loyal? You mean you were lying, or just kidding?
Regarding my comments about your PV. You left the Q, so you no longer have PV, but now you’re too chicken to state your PV when you were in and your tool profits? I won’t tell you what my PIN level is, but I promise you it is substantial. And yes, I was never in the “real” tool system, and never received even “crumbs”.
Question you have is why do tools and profit bother me so much? You refuse to answer questions then expect me to answer yours? No problem. Where have you been, my view of the tool scam is all over this blog. Get a clue.
You have had many people tell you how your system has helped them not just with their team business but also with friends, marriage, work? The teaching transcends MLM stuff? How many more people feel ripped off compared to those few who feel helped? Do you realize this statement is true about most tool systems, not just TEAM?
Do I also think that anyone with self help tapes and books shouldn’t get paid? What about people such as Zig Zigler, Anthony Robbins, Wayne Dyer, and all the others that have helped countless millions of people? I have answered this question on this and other blogs as well, where have you been?
I am really perplexed by this. I do admire your questions, if you channeled this into doing some reading, you could really educate yourself.
Utah #274,
The document showing the Team payout for speaking at meetings and the reported non-compete clause was submitted to the court by Quixtar. This clause was created by a Quixtar Attorney a while ago, according to the post, and not used by Team? Why would a Quixtar lawyer create a clause for a tool system contract, a business that is separate from Quixtar? This makes no sense.
You do not know if the rest of the document was, hence you don’t know if the pay info was correct? Can’t you find out?
Based on the above, your comments, as usual do not make sense.
I am fighting all tool systems, Team and other IBO tool scam systems, but not Quixtar. You are an IBO. Your motives are at best confusing.
I am an IBO. Was not surprised by both Q/A actions and Team’s action on Aug. 9th or 10th. I would not like this go back to June of 2007, things are progressing quite well. It makes no sense to give the IBO’s the choice we were given in 1999. Obviously that isn’t happening. I am also excited that the IBOAI doesn’t have any real power, as Q/A is rolling over them, as they should have long ago. The Corporation never promised that they wouldn’t change anything without the board. I am not glad the new board agreement signed, but you can’t win them all. I see a lot of movement to change the direction of Q/A and after 14 years, I am seeing it succeed. I don’t want it to fail, and they are listening to reason, plus the UK DTI, and perhaps the FTC.
October 3rd, 2007 at 2:09 am
Utah #275,
You were amazed that Quixtar left the top portion of the faxed form, because it showed the source of the form? Maybe it’s because they don’t have anything to hide, like a secret contract that prevents you from telling others how much tool scam money you make. I wonder if that clause was in the draft agreement, or it was added later by a TEAM lawyer?
October 3rd, 2007 at 10:27 am
Tex #277
I was a Founders Platinum, don’t know my total PV because I had Platinums below me and could not see their business….Happy? Doubt it.
Anybody within a tool system who feels “ripped off” is soley because they never implemented what they heard/read, and like many people, don’t want to put their failures on themselves but instead put the blame on others. If one person can improve their life by utilizing the teaching from tools, anybody can. It’s their choice whether they want to or not. I suppose these people also blame their circumstances in life for their current state of affairs instead of looking at the decisions they have been making. Didn’t hear oportunity knocking casue they had the TV turned up too loud. Go back to watching reruns of Seinfeld.
By the way, the answer to your question to Utah #274 is the clause was written by Quixtar because they wanted to own our tool business. When they realized there was NO WAY this was going to happen, they ruled our tool business was against the rules. End of argument.
Utah #274
Thank you brother!! I did not see your #271 post but this makes sense. There is no way Orrin and Chris would have ever done this. Should clear things up for alot of people, and shows again how Quixscrub twists and turns more things than a spinning top. Of course, Tex won’t agree to any of it.
In final, congratulations Q on the “victory” in Texas. You won that case, just like the Germans won the battle “Market Garden” several months prior to total anniliation.
October 3rd, 2007 at 10:56 am
Tex,
I’m glad that you agreed with my statement so much you chose not to change a word. I doubt you’re from Europe, but where you are from doesn’t really seem relevant to me.
I actually have a few questions for you.
1. Since you claim to be an IBO (ABO?) and not an employee of Alticor/Quixtar/Amway, why do you keep bringing up TEAM business practices? Regardless what happens in the pending litigation, it is clear that TEAM is not now, nor will it be in the future, affiliated with the business you claim an intention of building. If your crusade is truly to challenge the tool/system businesses affiliated with Alticor/Quixtar/Amway, why not spend your energy fighting against the tool/system businesses that still operate in affiliation with Quixtar?
2. Why do you feel you can’t build your business until the “tool” issue is cleaned up? Why can’t you simply start building it now by using what you consider to be the “correct” way?
3. Do you honestly believe that you can build and sustain a retail business selling the Amway products in the USA? If you are in fact in Europe, which I doubt, you can skip this question, since you probably don’t know what it is like to compete in a market with a Walmart every 100 yards.
October 3rd, 2007 at 2:00 pm
Tex#276,
That’s it. You are done. You seem to have quit arguing point-counterpoint and have begun to simply enjoy irritating people.
Look, when you want to come and talk in a mature manner with the concerned business owners here I’ll be more than happy to continue to point out where I disagree with your logic. Otherwise this is my last direct response to you.
‘Til then hush, the adults are trying to have a conversation.
October 4th, 2007 at 2:34 pm
Thunderstruck #279,
I’m delighted.
Anybody within a tool system who feels “ripped off” is soley because they were.
If one person can improve their life by utilizing the teaching from tools, anybody can? That’s a lie.
It’s their choice whether they want to or not? Is that how you deal with the scam mentally?
If you suppose these people also blame their circumstances in life for their current state of affairs instead of looking at the decisions they have been making, you are right. I decided to buy from the scammers and got burned. So did literally millions of others.
How does a one year non-compete between TEAM and it’s IBO’s mean Quixtar wanted to take over the tool business? I don’t see the link. There was much more than the TEAM tool business that was against the rules. End of argument.
I think your comparison of Quixtar to Hitler and the Nazis is unfounded. This blog, not the freetheibo blog, allows different points of view. You should flip flop sides, then your analogy will be accurate.
October 4th, 2007 at 2:46 pm
whatever #280,
I’m glad where I am from isn’t relevant to you, because it doesn’t change the facts. But it does make me wonder why YOU brought it up in the first place. But, as your name implies…whatever.
1. Because the TEAM fiasco has a peek into the operations of ALL tool systems that operate under similar tool pricing structures, which means almost all of them.
2. Because if I build a business, let’s say to Emerald, and then the FTC does what the UK DTI did to Amway in the UK, but goes just a bit further and actually shuts down not only the tools but the products as well, I will have wasted a lot of time, effort, and money for nothing.
3. Why do you think I have to have a retail only business? I think me and others can meet (or exceed, which is an individual IBO decision) the minimum retail requirements and build a network, without a tool scam. We never competed with Walmart, Walmart is not an MLM that pays us for creating product and services volume.
Jerad #281,
Look, when you want to come and talk in any kind of a manner with the concerned business owners here I’ll be more than happy to continue to point out where I disagree with your logic. Otherwise this isn’t my last direct response to you.
Bub-bye.
October 4th, 2007 at 9:07 pm
Tex,
You can’t even let the most harmless comment pass without some kind of confrontational tone in your response. You shouldn’t have to wonder why I mentioned where you are from, since you are the one that mentioned in your reply to me that “amazed” thinks you are from Europe. But as you noted…..whatever.
As to your actual responses to my questions…
1. If that is really why you care so much about the TEAM business, why do you rarely if ever question IBOs that are currently still operating in Amway about the systems they are using? It would seem to me if you are really out to blow the lid off the big bad evil “tool scam”, why are all of your efforts focused on the one that left? It just seems odd to me.
2. Since you don’t believe a “system” is needed to successfully build your business, I don’t see much exposure to a risk of “wasting a lot of money”. Even at a very small level, your product volume should generate enough money to cover your costs.
3. You may not think so, but unless you live in the sticks somewhere, you are competing with Walmart in my opinion.
Anyway…good luck to you.
October 4th, 2007 at 11:59 pm
whatever #284,
Orrin’s lawsuit confrontational tone deserves every bit of confrontation we can muster.
1. I have mentioned the rest of them many times, you weren’t paying attention. The reason TEAM is useful right now is because of the various court documents and direct statements by the Orrinites that support the overall tool scam theory. It is known the tool prices are similar as other systems, so unless the overhead costs of the other systems are drastically different, the tool scam can be transferred to all other similar systems. Now you know why I was kicked off the IBOAI blog.
2. Correction, I said a tool SCAM isn’t needed. Over the past couple of years, I have purchased well over 12,000 tapes/CD’s, hundreds of books and other tools, such as contacting and followup informtion, for pennies on the dollar. Also, it isn’t just the money I mentioned, it was effort and time as well. And not just my time, money and effort, but those in our group as well. You see, I “get it” that’s it’s NOT all just about me, me, me. If/when you start thinking this way, you will understand.
3. You’re entitled to your opinion, you just don’t understand making money as much as you understand spending money.
October 5th, 2007 at 11:27 am
DLS,
Thanks for your insight (#270). I really enjoyed your comments and those comments may be closer to the truth than we will ever know.
I think that there was a conflict brewing way before 8/9. From what I read on the blogs, Quixtar had had various negotiations with the team guys and it appears they kept tightening up the rules under which they could operate.
This was probably done because they didn’t like some of the practices or there could have been the ulterior motive that you talk about.
I am not affiliated with the team folks and really can’t comment on what the abuses would have been. I see comments and a few disgruntled team guys on the blogs, but nothing specific (every LOS, Quixtar or any organization for that matter, can have a few unhappy folks).
Whatever the motives were, we do know that Quixtar felt they had to “talk” to the team guys again and at that meeting it doesn’t seem like anyone was willing to compromise. Obviously the team guys were ready with the lawsuit, so I believe they went in unwilling to change and were going to try to “impose” their will on the company. Obviously, it didn’t work and now we have this lawsuit that hurts everyone.
I have a hard time believing that something could not have been worked out. I know this from traditional business experience: when the attorneys and courts get involved, nobody wins. I hate the lawsuit and the implications in it. I’m disappointed that the team guys felt they had to do it the way they did. Quixtar will vigorously defend themselves but there will be now winners in this….
DLS, I enjoy your posts, you seem like a rational person who is trying to make the best of it in this confusing issue.
October 5th, 2007 at 11:57 am
#284 whatever
I agree — if you’re trying to compete with Wal-Mart, you will fail. No one has successfully competed with Wal-Mart on their terms because they control everything including their own fleet of trucks, suppliers can only deal with them on Wal-Mart terms, and sometimes they even price certain items below cost because they make it up on other items. Even Target positions themselves on a different playing field to accomodate people who are willing to pay a slightly higher price than Wal-Mart for slightly better quality products.
However, I disagree with you in that I live in a moderatly large city (w/ at least 5 Wal-Marts not including those in surrounding areas), and that does not hinder my Quixtar business. I’m not competing with them, just like Fresh Market, Earth Fare, and SAKS are NOT competing with them. Quixtar has never tried to position themselves in a low price / discount market, and quite frankly, I’m proud of that. Learn about the products, use the products, and then it is much easier to convince others they should use them too.
October 5th, 2007 at 10:10 pm
Tex,
Last time I checked, my name wasn’t Orrin, and I didn’t file any lawsuits. Why him doing so justifies you being rude with everyone else you come in contact with is beyond me. For your sake, I hope it is just these blogs that brings out the ugliness in you.
Don’t tell me what I understand or don’t understand about making or spending money. You know nothing about me. Here is a little quiz for you. Try to stay with me…
If I sell 10 apples at $1 each, and you sell 1 apple for $10, who made more money? You may find there is a market for $10 apples. I think there are a lot more people that would rather buy a $1 apple, so they can buy some grapefruits too.
NL,
I understand your point that there may not be direct competition. But I do believe there is some cross-over, and there are a lot more people shopping at Target and Walmart on any given day than Saks.
Obviously, some people are happy with the Amway opportunity, and there are even some that make decent income from it. I just think there could be a better opportunity out there, and I’m willing to take some time to see what comes along.
October 7th, 2007 at 6:37 pm
pvbvguy #286,
I “enjoy” DLS’s comments and “insight” as well, but only for entertainment purposes. DLS isn’t even close to the truth.
That’s right, there was a conflict brewing way before 8/9, try 1983. From what I read on the blogs and other sources, Quixtar had had various rule breakers in the past, and they kept tightening up the rules under which all IBO’s could operate.
This was done because they were damaging to the A/Q business.
I am not affiliated with the team folks, but have seen some of their Opens and a Seminar, and really did comment on what the abuses were. I see comments and a few disgruntled team guys on the blogs, and found out for myself, by personally attending the above events. (every LOS, Quixtar or any organization for that matter, can have a few unhappy folks, and most of them have their own tool scam to blame).
The motives were Quixtar had to “talk” to the team guys again to give them one more chance to clean up their act, and at that meeting TEAM wasn’t willing to even listen to what they needed to do to comply with the rules. Obviously the team guys were ready with the lawsuit, so I believe they went in unwilling to change and were going to try to “impose” their will on the company. Obviously, it didn’t work and now we have this lawsuit that destroyed TEAM is now in arbitration.
I have a hard time believing that something could have been worked out, TEAM had been breaking rules for YEARS. I know this from traditional business experience: when the attorneys and courts get involved, the one with the deepest pockets usually wins. I love the lawsuit and the implications in it. I’m delighted that the TEAM guys felt they had to do it the way they did, because they further exposed the tool scam. Quixtar will vigorously defend themselves and will be the clear winners in this.
DLS, I enjoy your posts, you seem like a crazy person who is trying to prove it in this straight forward issue.
October 7th, 2007 at 6:55 pm
whatever #288
Your name isn’t Orrin, be sure to thank your parents for that. The lawsuits were filed on behalf of all IBO’s, especially the Orrinites. Anyone who supports him deserves criticism, and lots of it. I can assure you I am sweet and lovable outside of these blogs. Just ask my parole officer.
You don’t understand about making or spending money. I know nothing about you. Here is a little quiz for you. Try to stay with me…
If I sell 10 apples at $1 each, and you sell 1 apple for $10, who made more money? You may find there is a market for $10 apples. I think there are a lot more people that would rather buy a $1 apple, so they can buy some grapefruits too.
That depends. Are your 10 apples rotten, and mine fresh, crisp, and great tasting? Perhaps that’s why you are selling them for such a low price. Perhaps we each bought the apples for $2 each, so you lost $10, and I made $8. It’s the NET profit that counts, and that’s why the tool scam is so critical. I’ve seen many posts by former Platinums who only broke even or even had a net loss. What does that mean for the dozens of IBO’s in their group? Most of them were probably operating at a net loss as well. Does that make sense, Mr. Apple? Also, I have a group of other apple sellers in an MLM scenario, so I get a part of their $8 profit, because I helped them get into the apple business. I also get paid to eat my own apples.
Enjoy your grapefruit, you have plenty of sour grapes that you can now make a fruit salad with, bon appetit!
There’s no “crossover” between Quixtar and Walmart, one is a business and one is a store. Get a clue. Reread the above apple story if you’re confused.
October 8th, 2007 at 6:05 pm
Tex,
I think anyone in there right mind would agree that it is indeed you that has “sour grapes.” Your tone with people makes you seem consumed with bitterness and frustration.
Obviously net profit is what matters. Here is an example that may hit closer to home for you. Say we each buy comparable apples from different suppliers of apples. Maybe yours are even slightly better quality. Yours cost you $1.30 each, and you sell them for $1.50 each. Because my supplier sells me mine for $1.00 each, I can sell them for $1.20 each. We each make $.20 per apple, but who do you think will sell more apples? I suppose you can convince a few people that your apples are somehow better and worth a bit more. But most will buy mine.
The concept is simple, no matter how complicated you try to make it. You can make the same money by higher profit margin, but lower volume…or lower margin and higher volume.
The tool business has nothing to do with it. Although, I’ve been around this blog long enough to know that you think the tool business to blame for EVERYTHING…even global warming….
October 10th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
whatever #291,
I think anyone in there right mind would agree that it is indeed you that has “sour grapes.” Your tone with people makes you seem consumed with bitterness and frustration. —- I think anyone in their right mind wouldn’t use the word “there” improperly. Am I supposed to be happy about a scam?
Obviously net profit is what matters. Here is an example that may hit closer to home for you. Say we each buy comparable apples from different suppliers of apples. Maybe yours are even slightly better quality. Yours cost you $1.30 each, and you sell them for $1.50 each. Because my supplier sells me mine for $1.00 each, I can sell them for $1.20 each. We each make $.20 per apple, but who do you think will sell more apples? I suppose you can convince a few people that your apples are somehow better and worth a bit more. But most will buy mine. —- Backpeddle backpeddle, backpeddle. What if my apples come with a money back guarantee, my customers receive superior service, their apples can be ordered over the internet, and if they buy enough apples or other items, they can get free shipping? What if you expect your fellow apple sellers to spend more money every month to buy apple selling/motivational tools? I may not be able to sell to everyone, but I don’t need to in order to have a successful business, either.
Plus, tell me where you can find apples almost as good as mine and get paid as much as I do for selling mine. It’s not Walmart.
You still lose.
The concept is simple, no matter how complicated you try to make it. You can make the same money by higher profit margin, but lower volume…or lower margin and higher volume. —- The concept is simple, it’s the implementation that isn’t. But Orrin wouldn’t know about implementation. He wasn’t in the factory, he was behind the glass wall, busy with being a “benchmarking expert”. In other words, a pencil pusher.
The tool business has nothing to do with it. —- Wrong. See above. The tool business has EVERYTHING to do with it, because it affects the net profit. Thanks for making my point.
Although, I’ve been around this blog long enough to know that you think the tool business to blame for EVERYTHING…even global warming…. —- For the record, the tools have little to do with global warming. The biggest factor contributing to global warming is the hot air coming out of the speakers’ mouths.
October 16th, 2007 at 5:12 pm
Tex,
I think anyone in there right mind would agree that it is indeed you that has “sour grapes.” Your tone with people makes you seem consumed with bitterness and frustration. —- I think anyone in their right mind wouldn’t use the word “there” improperly. Am I supposed to be happy about a scam? — There is no scam. And, you get a star for your forehead for catching my grammar mistake. Bravo. You don’t have to be happy, but you don’t have to be a jerk either. Maybe you are so consumed and bitter that you don’t realize how much credibility you lose with your personal attacks. Not only will people that disagree with your opinions not like you, but neutral readers will likely be so offended by you that they won’t give your opinions any serious consideration either.
Obviously net profit is what matters. Here is an example that may hit closer to home for you. Say we each buy comparable apples from different suppliers of apples. Maybe yours are even slightly better quality. Yours cost you $1.30 each, and you sell them for $1.50 each. Because my supplier sells me mine for $1.00 each, I can sell them for $1.20 each. We each make $.20 per apple, but who do you think will sell more apples? I suppose you can convince a few people that your apples are somehow better and worth a bit more. But most will buy mine. —- Backpeddle backpeddle, backpeddle. What if my apples come with a money back guarantee(mine too), my customers receive superior service, their apples can be ordered over the internet, and if they buy enough apples or other items, they can get free shipping?(mine too) What if you expect your fellow apple sellers to spend more money every month to buy apple selling/motivational tools?(They can buy optional selling tools in whatever quantity they deem appropriate) I may not be able to sell to everyone, but I don’t need to in order to have a successful business, either.(I didn’t say you did. I just said you can have success either way, and I believe you can have GREATER success my way.)
Plus, tell me where you can find apples almost as good as mine and get paid as much as I do for selling mine. It’s not Walmart.(Maybe not, but with what yours cost, I’m guessing I can find some if I look around a bit.)
You still lose.(not)
The concept is simple, no matter how complicated you try to make it. You can make the same money by higher profit margin, but lower volume…or lower margin and higher volume. —- The concept is simple, it’s the implementation that isn’t. But Orrin wouldn’t know about implementation. He wasn’t in the factory, he was behind the glass wall, busy with being a “benchmarking expert”. In other words, a pencil pusher.(Success is success…we’ll see I guess.)
The tool business has nothing to do with it. —- Wrong. See above. The tool business has EVERYTHING to do with it, because it affects the net profit. Thanks for making my point.(All businesses have operating costs that affect net profit. If use of tools didn’t increase profit, people wouldn’t use them.)
Although, I’ve been around this blog long enough to know that you think the tool business to blame for EVERYTHING…even global warming…. —- For the record, the tools have little to do with global warming. The biggest factor contributing to global warming is the hot air coming out of the speakers’ mouths.(I guess we’ll all be thankful that you are typing and not speaking.)
October 16th, 2007 at 9:50 pm
I Googled “Quixtar sues Bloggers” and there were nearly a quarter of a million pages. Many newspapers and tv stations carrying the story including the Washington Post. (Some will be around for years to come.)
AP story. Many articles described the videos disparaging Quixtar as such: “a man points out products at a grocery store priced much lower than comparable Quixtar products.”
Many contained comments: “in June that it (Alticor) will start phasing out the Quixtar name and rebuilding its Amway brand in the U.S. and Canada.”
It has now been announced to millions of people that “Quixtar is Amway and the prices are high.”
Like it or not, that’s the way it will be intrepreted. (I’m not personally commenting on price here…just anticipating public reaction.)
What were they thinking?
October 16th, 2007 at 10:57 pm
whatever #293,
There is no scam? Then why are tool profits kept secret?
And, you get a star for your forehead for catching my grammar mistake. Bravo. —- Thanks.
You don’t have to be happy, but you don’t have to be a jerk either. Maybe you are so consumed and bitter that you don’t realize how much credibility you lose with your personal attacks. —- Maybe, maybe not. Maybe it is intended to keep you off balance and exposing the fool that you are.
Not only will people that disagree with your opinions not like you, but neutral readers will likely be so offended by you that they won’t give your opinions any serious consideration either. —- If they can be swayed that easily, I don’t want or need them on my side.
They can buy optional selling tools in whatever quantity they deem appropriate —- The tools are optional in name only, in reality they are very mandatory, if you want any meaningful help.
I didn’t say you did. I just said you can have success either way, and I believe you can have GREATER success my way. —- We may get a chance to find out, if Orrin survives the trial and arbitration process. He looked pretty bad today in court.
Maybe not, but with what yours cost, I’m guessing I can find some if I look around a bit. —- Go for it.
You still lose.
The concept is simple, it’s the implementation that isn’t. But Orrin wouldn’t know about implementation. He wasn’t in the factory, he was behind the glass wall, busy with being a “benchmarking expert”. In other words, a pencil pusher.(Success is success…we’ll see I guess.) —- Yes, we’ll see.
All businesses have operating costs that affect net profit. If use of tools didn’t increase profit, people wouldn’t use them. —- There are too many failures and not enough success stories for that statement to make any sense. Plus, the profits are hidden, so it’s a scam.
I guess we’ll all be thankful that you are typing and not speaking. —- That may change in the future….
October 17th, 2007 at 12:13 am
Tex,
Thank you for admitting that you need to use personal attacks to try to keep people off balance. Apparently even you realize that your arguments lack sufficient merit to stand alone without adding some manipulation and gamesmanship.
Unfortunately, you don’t seem to realize that your tactics only expose what a fool you are, not anyone else.
Do you ever wonder why you are the only one consistently crying about the “tool scam”? There are a few others on here that voice their belief in the Amway business opportunity, but nobody seems to share your misery and blame system tools for their failures.
From your last comment, I can only assume that you may be some kind of witness in the legal proceedings. Try not to pull a Jack Nicholson impression on the stand. We can all handle the truth. It is just that most of our views of the truth are a little different from yours.
October 17th, 2007 at 9:32 pm
rico #294,
I Googled “Quixtar sues Bloggers” and there were nearly a quarter of a million pages. Many newspapers and tv stations carrying the story including the Washington Post. (Some will be around for years to come.) —- Run away, run away, the sky is falling! This will come and go, how many people would do a search for “Quixtar sues Bloggers” on their own? When the tool scam is closed up (and it has to be now, right?), we can point to these pages about how things USED to be.
AP story. Many articles described the videos disparaging Quixtar as such: “a man points out products at a grocery store priced much lower than comparable Quixtar products.” —- Keep running, keep running!
Many contained comments: “in June that it (Alticor) will start phasing out the Quixtar name and rebuilding its Amway brand in the U.S. and Canada.” —- Don’t stop, keep running!
It has now been announced to millions of people that “Quixtar is Amway and the prices are high.” —- It’s not much further now, keep running away!
Like it or not, that’s the way it will be intrepreted. (I’m not personally commenting on price here…just anticipating public reaction.) —- There’s the finish line, it’s getting closer!
What were they thinking? —- You can find similar stories about virtually any company on the internet. Get a grip.
whatever #296,
Thank you for admitting that you need to use personal attacks to try to keep people off balance. —- I thought that was obvious.
Apparently even you realize that your arguments lack sufficient merit to stand alone without adding some manipulation and gamesmanship. —- No, I realized you weren’t paying any attention to the facts, so I thought I would at least have some fun.
Unfortunately, you don’t seem to realize that your tactics only expose what a fool you are, not anyone else. —- Unfortunately, everything is going my way, so who is the real fool?
Do you ever wonder why you are the only one consistently crying about the “tool scam”? —- Too bad I’m not, do some googling and read this site, for a change.
There are a few others on here that voice their belief in the Amway business opportunity, but nobody seems to share your misery and blame system tools for their failures. —- See above, you lose again.
From your last comment, I can only assume that you may be some kind of witness in the legal proceedings. —- I already stated I visited with some Q attorneys, genius.
Try not to pull a Jack Nicholson impression on the stand. We can all handle the truth. It is just that most of our views of the truth are a little different from yours. —- I’m not like Jack, I’ve been telling the truth from the beginning of this blog. It’s not my problem you can’t seem to understand the facts.
October 17th, 2007 at 11:49 pm
Tex,
Everything is going your way? So you’re happy that Q/A wasn’t able to trick the Judge into canceling the TEAM meeting in Louisville?
Apparently the Judge doesn’t entirely agree with your version of the facts either?
I know the matter is far from over, but at least the Court got that one right…
October 22nd, 2007 at 8:48 pm
whatever 298,
Yes, I am happy. It took all the wind out of the whiny sails of the Orrinites. Now they think it will be a clear path to their 6 month non-compete, but they need to escape the buzz saw of arbitration first. I won’t be surprised if the 6 month/2 year time periods are extended, as payback for the damage the “illegal pyramid” lawsuit caused.
The judge said most of the tickets were purchased prior to August 9, and I have no problem with that logic. You know is the happiest? Orrin’s lawyer, who now has access to all the profit Orrin pulled in from the function. His “billable hour” dollar signs flash in his eyes every time he blinks.
October 22nd, 2007 at 11:15 pm
Tex,
You have a vivid imagination. We’ll see.
October 29th, 2007 at 1:14 pm
whatever #300,
Yes, we will.