Categories
- Alticor (87)
- Access Business Group (5)
- Amway (62)
- Quixtar (40)
- Amway Arena (3)
- eCoupled (3)
- Founders (1)
- Fulton Innovation (3)
- Grand Rapids (8)
- Hotels (5)
- Innovation (4)
- JW Marriott Grand Rapids (5)
- Michigan (10)
- Michigan Governor's Race (23)
- Miscellaneous (12)
- Product Lines (7)
- Sponsorships (2)
- Sports (1)
- Transformation (25)
Archives
Alticor Media Blog is the official news weblog from the Alticor family of companies.
August 30th, 2007 @ 12:00 pm ET…
T-R-O? Nice T-R-Y
You can post a comment or trackback from your own site.
The class-action lawyers at Shughart Thomson & Kilroy — the same folks who lost all three of their arguments in court last week — would now like you think that what really matters is a round of legal motions that is splattering U.S. courthouses like an attack of spam email.
That’s what going oh-for-three will do to you. Make you point madly in any direction - just as long as it is away from three solid legal defeats.
And right now, they are pointing at those spam TROs – we are aware of about 12 of them so far.
But those guys claim there are more TROs than that, right?
Well, please understand that Mr. Poyfair and his class-action lawyer pals do not bother to tell us when they file these motions. They go before the judge all by themselves and we find out about it later.
If they get the order, it’s hardly a “victory.” We haven’t even been told there’s a game, much less gotten our turn at bat.
Of course, sometimes we don’t even need to go to the bat rack – in 4 of the 12 motions we know about, their motions were refused even when we weren’t there.
And if we can win one out of three when we aren’t even there, we sure like our chances when we get a chance to argue our case. There is a long road ahead, there will undoubtedly be some setbacks – but the main thing is, don’t be distracted by TROs. Facts, laws and contracts win cases, not spam attacks. And the facts, contracts and laws are on our side.
TROs, by themselves, are not bad things. Anybody with a filing fee can apply for one, and that is a good thing for our democracy. But lawyers like Mr. Poyfair abuse that privilege, as “anybody” becomes a swarm of legal mosquitoes, dispatched only to make companies like ours swat them away.
Reporters are welcome to call for more info on this TRO stuff. But allow us to suggest there is a recurring typo in Mr. Poyfair’s releases.
The releases are not really about any TRO (Temporary Restraining Order).
They are really about TRA (Trying to Redirect your Attention) from the only numbers that matter right now:
Oh-for-three.
Filed by: Corporate Communications
Posted in: Alticor, Amway, Quixtar, Transformation
August 30th, 2007 at 1:59 pm
amen!
August 30th, 2007 at 2:05 pm
This is my first post. I’ve read through most of the posts and comments throughout the duration of this case and can’t believe the stupidity on here. It’s like some people are on here all the time arguing back and forth. To some of my fellow Team members, please be careful what you say. I just sit back and shake my head at a few of these comments coming from Team members. Understand the whole point of this blog and it’s posts are to generate doubt in our leadership. THAT IS All. Who in their right mind would back a company like this right now. The negative posts are not even coming from true IBOs. Let our results from the court case do the talking for us. Until then, the scoreboard still reads 12-3.
August 30th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
Please feel free to see here:
http://media.alticorblogs.com/2007/08/29/clarification/#comment-18385
Any Questions?
August 30th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
So do you terminate the IBO(s) involved in the TRO’s they lose, if the IBO’s don’t sign the “I’ll follow the rules” letter?
Isn’t there a legal process that can be used to stop these “mosquito” attacks, sounds like a lot of wasted tax dollars?
August 30th, 2007 at 2:14 pm
Scoreboard?
ultimately the way we know who wins is who is getting the rewards.
So far…
Quixtar is still running their business, nothing changed…
TEAM no longer gets to sell their books/cds to Quixtar IBOs and they don’t get to steal Quixtar IBOs.
anything else i left out?
The name of the game is results….. in that game…. Quixtar is winning… but TEAM is peristent (they read leadership books that talk about persistence…) and TEAM is going to keep spamming in the Legal world
August 30th, 2007 at 2:14 pm
Alticor, why have you turned your official “Media Blog” site into a trash talking forum? Please respond to the email I have submitted, because I’m very curious as an IBO why the corporation I’m affiliated with sees fit to tear down an organization that is trying to help it’s members build enterprises of their own? These TROs are incredibly important in protecting these IBOs businesses! Everyone is talking about “spin” this and “spin” that, but this doesn’t seem smart enough to be considered spin to me, it just seems pointless and juvenile. Why go there? Even if you guys win in CA, you’re really tarnishing your image not just with those affiliated with Team, but also with everybody else! What must your partner stores think?! Just look at the majority of these posts on your own blog site! It just seems senseless and stupid. Please let me know the logic, because you look like you’re about to crumble as a company.
August 30th, 2007 at 2:19 pm
Blue,
The score is no more 12-3 than I am a Martian !
As discussed at length, the TRO’s obtained against Q* are not remotely comparable to the verdicts Q* obtained - it’s like comparing Beans and Icebergs - you can’t do it as they are SO different!
Go back to your dreaming TEAM and keep your head down.
August 30th, 2007 at 2:23 pm
ok TEAM I think i am understanding!!! Whoo Hoo!!!
1. Quixtar is an illegal pyramid, but don’t miss tonights meeting where we expand out Quixtar business!!! Fired up!!!!
2. TEAM is winning the battle so far against Quixtar - we have to return IBOAI docs we stoled, we can’t mess with Quixtar team LOS, we can no longer sell bsms to Quixtar LOS…. and we can’t steal steal Quixtar downline….. but those things don’t matter!!! We are winning!!! 12-3 in TROs!!! Loser Quixtar bloggers!! Ha!! Get with the Program!!!
Go to TEAM forum and see the light!!!!
August 30th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
I have a question: Why is Quixtar fighting the request for TROs?
From what I understand, these Temporary Restraining Orders are simply asking that Quixtar not be allowed to harrass, threaten, or intimidate downline (think about the IBO who has been in for three months); and that Quixtar not terminate an IBO without following its own Rules of Conduct. And they are asking this ONLY temporarily, until a Federal court rules on a larger issue.
Is Quixtar actually saying they WANT the right to harrass, threaten, and intimidate IBOs; and the right to terminate an IBO at will?
August 30th, 2007 at 2:30 pm
#2 - Blue,
Get a clue. Do yourself a favor and call an attorney buddy of yours and get an education about TROs. I called a close friend of mine in southern California, a Superior Court judge there, and he told me the TROs don’t say anything at all regarding the merits of a case, they are normally simply used to keep the affairs between litigating parties in neutral or the status quo until an actual full hearing on the facts of the case can be held. They are fairly simple to request and normally are granted. It is only when the full hearing has been held and the judge’s final ruling handed down that you can even begin to start keeping score. And even those initial rulings are subject to appeal. Acquire a basic legal education from someone who has a reasonable understanding about legal matters and you and others like you won’t make such foolish and ill-informed comments. So the real score is still 3-0 — as anyone who truly understands the legal system is well aware.
August 30th, 2007 at 2:32 pm
@Blue: Your scoreboard, as the point of this post makes clear, is only for half an inning.
You should let the other, very-well-equipped, “team” have a turn at bat before you declare victory.
And really it’s worse than that, your “team” took a turn at bat without anyone playing in the field. Pretty easy to get 12 runs that way.
August 30th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
I kind of like the trashtalk - When a couple guys are trying to put you out of business about lawsuits of you being an illegal business… the same company that made Orrin/Chris multi-millionaires…. i think its good to be firm and strong in your language.
I don’t want my corporation/supplier/opportunity-giver to be wishy-washy and worried… i want to know that they are kicking A** and taking Names!
I don’t like the nerdy Corporate mumbo jumbo announcements…. we are business parters… i am like their “reseller” and I am glad they are strong!
Jesus was obviously operated morally right and in integrity… yet he called the religious pharisees that were proud and boastful and criticizing everything he did… he called them hypocrites and other trashtalking names.
August 30th, 2007 at 2:45 pm
12 to 3.
It is what it is.
August 30th, 2007 at 2:55 pm
I think the tone this blog takes in particular is very alienating for most of the IBO population within Amway/Quixtar in the US.
TEAM or non-TEAM, this blog’s current tone will no doubt create animosity toward the corporation as a whole.
A good litmus test for this would be to have a poll of the general public to determine how they feel about Quixtar/Amway/Alticor now with the media war being waged on both sides.
As for the TRO situation you describe above, they are no LESS legal than the injunctions the company has won in the Kent County Courthouse. Only the “T” in TRO really takes the bite out of the court orders.
The company will have their day in court without fear of Ex parte TRO’s being filed, as there is a major TRO being resolved tomorrow in Texas court. This will be when the court decides if the company should be enjoined further through injunction to stop exactly the type of content (emails as well) coming from the corporation toward IBO-America.
There is no spin here. No spam. Just facts. Hard legal facts. The corporation filed an Ex parte TRO against Woodward et al after the Aug 9th meeting, as well as the IBOAI filing a similar TRO. The only difference is they have been ruled on already to be injunctions until February 9th, 2008 or till the court rules further.
The same can happen with all the 12 TRO’s that are involved in multiple states. The difference is that Ada Valley’s big corporate influence is not present there.
Let the justice system decide what is spin and what is real hard facts for both sides to consider.
Thank you.
August 30th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
please someone invite me to a TEAM meeting!
I will behave. any in Dallas?
I am very curious what you do at a meeting.
August 30th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
“ultimately the way we know who wins is who is getting the rewards.
So far…
Quixtar is still running their business, nothing changed…
TEAM no longer gets to sell their books/cds to Quixtar IBOs and they don’t get to steal Quixtar IBOs.
anything else i left out?”
Yes. Nobody wants to keep Q from running their business. The clarification order only mentions not moving tools that compete with the Q business.
August 30th, 2007 at 3:03 pm
This is silly everyone!!! The no compete, no solicitation clauses will NOT stand up PERIOD!!!
You ask how I know? Experience!
I have been in sales for a long time. In most companies they have you sign a no compete, no solicitation clause in case you leave, you can’t work somewhere that might benefit from your training, experience, and from you client/customer list.
However, it is also commonly known that these clause’s don’t mean anything unless the company you leave is willing to compensate ($$$)you not to compete or solicit from the work that YOU have done.
Basically, when this is all done. The big Q/A will have to pay us to wait their 6mo/2yr rules, or let us go on our merry way, and take the business WE BUILT OURSELVES with us!!
So Q/A either pony up (BIG $$$) or stop this circus and drop the battle you know you can’t win. Unless your legal dept. didn’t get a very good education they do KNOW this!!
August 30th, 2007 at 3:04 pm
TEAM ibos - what is up?
your upline leaders are not in Quixtar anymore. if you are still an ibo - what are you going to do?
some options:
1. resign from your Quixtar business
2. keep your Quixtar business and be positive about Quixtar….
3. keep your Q business and blog/promote how you don’t like Q/A - that one don’t make sense to me
4. research the truth more… decide later…
August 30th, 2007 at 3:11 pm
I’m a bit hesitent to post this as I’m engaging in an arugement with people who state “the facts don’t matter”…. but to clarify here’s the Blacks Law dictionary of a temporary restraining order:
“A court order, usu. preserving the status quo, forbidding the opposing party from taking some action until a litigant’s application for a preliminary or permanent injunction can be heard. A temporary restraining order may sometimes be granted without notifying the oppposing party in advance.”
Contrats team. You guys are kickin tail. Keep being fired up. You are out so far ahead of Quixtar and their legal team it’s unreal. This is probably where I should insert some type of stirring clip from Mel Gibson in Braveheart, or start playing “Pump up the Jam” on my boombox real loud!!!! (was that too much sarcasm?)
August 30th, 2007 at 3:17 pm
In re #7: sounds like a martian name to me “cmfitzg” :-)) jk
In re #8: Is “stoled” in the dictionary? …or is that another Q term they have laboriously kept from us?
Come on guys and gals it is obviously heated responses like this that cause others to queston your credibility. I have been loyal for so many years to A/Q.
I do agree with the TEAM philosophy in that the products are overly inflated and therefore practically unmarketable. I also believe it may be time for some reform in the way MLMs conduct business. I also believe that TEAM and Alt/A/Q should not forget where it is they came from and stop stepping on IBOs. After all it is those of us who make up their organization that ultimately feel the repercussions of their actions much quicker.
BTW, as of Saturday, I will no longer be involved in Alt/Q/A and fortunately my upline had not finished the transition to TEAM before all this happened. As best I can tell both sides need to give and take some, and come to the table as adults and bring resolve to this matter.
“For you have been called to live in freedom - not freedom to satisfy your sinful nature, but freedom to serve one another in love. “For the whole law can be summed up in this one command “Love you neighbor as yourself.” But if instead of showing love among yourselves you are always biting and devouring one another, watch out! Beware of destroying one another.”
Galatians 5:13-16
August 30th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
jthompson:
Be careful — if the teacher catches you blogging you’re going to be in trouble!
August 30th, 2007 at 3:34 pm
Correct me if i’m wrong but weren’t the corpoaration’s lawyers present in Texas last friday ?
August 30th, 2007 at 3:36 pm
Kevin (#6), you made a very good point. Especially the last part about the company crumbling.
I once had a lengthy conversation with a former diamond under Don Storms (he, Don Storms, is no longer around either). The main point the former diamond made to me about the company and how it deals with its IBO’s etc, etc, was that in his view, one day, the company would implode on itself. I believe this company has been and continues to be on a path of self destruction. Watch carefully the cases against it primarily in California. Especially the RICO one. If the company wins these…there will be others. This company (in my opinion) will never be able to recover from the past destructive path that it has set itself on by its actions with MANY former ibo’s of HIGH pin levels. I was in the business years ago and I have seen, since then, a non stop march out the door (some their choice/some not) of large pin level distributor that made this company what it is today. After a while one has to ask…what is the common denominator here….the company and its methods. This company cannot survive unless it reinvents itself…through liquidating its North American distributor base….(of which I believe it is on course to do) with the methods that it has in place of handling problems with these distributors of high pin levels and large groups.
I maybe totally wrong….but, time will tell and this company’s past performace record…minus the spin and pr…is of a company that wants to go under.
Time will indeed tell.
August 30th, 2007 at 3:39 pm
The court rulings “against” TEAM state that we must obey the “rules of conduct”. We were already doing that. We’ll just keep doing more of the same. Quixsand can only tell IBO’s what tools they can use with prospects and in “plan training”, thus TEAM will for the moment not be selling those items. Everything else, per the “rules of conduct” is fair game. Go read the rules. Signed, The Truth
August 30th, 2007 at 3:55 pm
Alticor Communications -
You are kidding right in your post today?
Who was the first group to go to the court without telling the other side? Quixtar when they got an exparte order on August 10th.
Quixtar also began braggin on this within 24 hours after the went to the court on the 10th.
Please, please, please quit your lies and spin! Just report both sides (you have IBOs that are evaluating the actions of all the parites, every day).
August 30th, 2007 at 4:07 pm
JT#18
I’ll resign from Q. I haven’t yet as I am waiting the wording of the eventual decision that let’s me out of the unfair labor contract.
You know, the one I agreed to last Dec…long before they changed the deal. Thus making it unfair.
August 30th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
I have been following this site as well as many others since August 9th. We are not even officially on Team yet but we are on Team in our souls. We have been “powered by” the Q for 9 years and I can’t stay quiet anymore. The timing of the resignations speaks volumes to those who have enough intuition to read between the lines. The Quixtar business as we all knew it is gone and not coming back. The contract with the IBOAI was not going to be renewed-what?-no representation! The name is being changed back to Amway?-what?-reverse depth! “Great news, the registration process is changing?”-more control! Quixtar University for new IBO’s-brainwashing! Oh, and only 3 authorized training systems(efinity,MMP,ProSystem1)-more control. Everyone should reconsider their emotions on this matter. It isn’t TEAM vs. Quixtar. It should be all IBO’s vs. Quixtar. After all, aren’t we supposed to be getting to the right side of the quadrant(E-S-B-I)? Sounds like Quixtar wants to control us like E’s without the perks. There’s no looking back for us. We will get on TEAM one way or another. In the meantime we are building our community as big as we can so we take an army with us. God Bless TEAM!
August 30th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
You did forget to mention the 192 pages of arguments heard in Texas but that is ok, Half truths are the method of operation here.
Either way Quixtar, in the end, you lose.
1. You lose, and as a company are gone. With the new brochure, Amway II launches this Saturday.
2. I believe your English business will fall below 50% next year and continue to decline as you turn into an Avon.
3. The IBO’s that think you will leave them with some type of a “system” will realize in 12 - 24 months they are done as well. Yes JT, you too!
4. When you “take over the systems / eliminate them like the UK” many more will flee.
I am sure you will give tools for free, oh wait, I have to buy qbob don’t I?
5. What’s left of the field will find out you only paid out a portion of the 60 million figure because very few will qualify for it.
Someone who is left, needs to ask for the final numbers when this is finished. Last time they promised 80 -90 million, they only paid 50 or so.
6. I believe the people who will qualify, only will do so on the way down. “I was a Diamond but got the Emerald bonus.”
7. We got our butt whooped by 20 - 30 negative bloggers online. You just took that number into the thousands A/Q.
8. The IBOAI board is just a puppet and ultimate power corrupts “Ultimately”.
9. As a Founders Emerald with 4 qualified legs and several thousand points outside that, my monthly check is around $5,500.
I would like to see how many people would be willing to do what I used to do just for the “Amway” money. There goes your talent.
10. After 50 years in business, there is a list of companies in the U.S. that have flown by you the last few years. More are on there way!
11. The Woodward case didn’t want to see you go under, the Pakorney case does. I would save a few “legal dollars” for this one. It’s a class action and has teeth.
12. You may have got your “secrets back”,but the world realizes the emperor has no clothes. You are exposed, and blogs like this stating you are the “winner”?
Time will tell.
The saddest part for me personally, I have many crossline friends that don’t have any idea what’s coming.
I wish them the best.
August 30th, 2007 at 4:24 pm
Ultimately all these TRO’s and Michigan lawsuits are doing is wasting everyone’s time prior to the Class Action lawsuit being heard. That is the only case that matters at this point. All this other stuff is just corporate attorneys going back and forth with each other and trying to win PR points.
August 30th, 2007 at 4:48 pm
Below is a blog between TEX and JEFFREY in It’s Not About One Issue in the Ada-tubes blog on July 9th
Jeffrey said:
July 9, 2007 7:10 PM | #
One of the things that really bothers me is that A/Q has a “no compete” rule. We cannot be in another competing business. This makes sense to a point because it may cause confusion with downline IBOs and can divert the attention of an IBO trying to build his/her business. I have even considered joining Fuller Brush so I can offer their entire line to my customers, but I think that would be a rule violation, so I haven’t. But, A/Q is in violation of one of their own rules. If there is a no compete rule for us, it should also apply to the company.
Tex said:
July 9, 2007 10:30 PM | #
Jeffrey,
No need to get upset over the mouthwash, just mention the brand and get the facts in the open. Amway should openly respond they have broadened their product line and then use some of the profit to bring down the prices for the core products, loosen the non-compete rule, or live with the noise that will be created as a result. The Rich DeVos statement is a position from decades ago, things change over time, and nobody ever said the rules that apply to us apply equally to Amway.
So Tex, are we for or against loosening the non-compete rule? You always talk about credibility. You should watch your own.
Conan
(Moderator, I do not know how to link, I am a newbee at blogging. Hope this is short enough now.)
August 30th, 2007 at 5:03 pm
PEOPLE,
THIS IS A BLOG…NOT A COMPANY NEWS HEAD LETTER OF OFFICIAL COORESPONDES.
A BLOG IS SUPPOSED TO BE INFORMAL AND LIKE TALKING TO YOUR FRIEND. OPINONS ARE WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT AND GIVING THEM IN AN IMFORMAL MANNER LIKE OVER A CUP OF COFFEE OR IN SOME CASES EVEN OVER A ‘SPIKED CUP OF COFFEE’ OR DRINK IF YOU SO PREFER.
August 30th, 2007 at 5:04 pm
Are all of these Alticor blogs really the official statements from a multi-billion dollar company? Somewhat juvenile in ever post. Not on Team and you are convincing me to not be part of Quixtar as well.
August 30th, 2007 at 5:08 pm
Wow. Amway, you are making it more and more disappointing everyday to be associated with you. I have never been more embarrassed and disillusioned. I wish I had never gotten into this business in the first place. And to think I used to tell everyone I know how great this opportunity is. What a lie that has turned out to be.
August 30th, 2007 at 5:19 pm
TEAM, We need to keep to our own blog and not let all the negitive creep in. Remember to stand together for each other and for TEAM as a whole.
Posting reply’s in defense only allows others to continue to throw mud. Let them throw mud and watch it bounce back when they have no one else to get dirty but themselves.
August 30th, 2007 at 5:41 pm
[…] Orders (TRO) all over the country against Quixtar and Alticor has come forward to discuss its position on the […]
August 30th, 2007 at 5:52 pm
A TRO in favor of Q is a big deal but 12 TRO’s in favor of TEAM is a spam attack ?
August 30th, 2007 at 6:24 pm
oh no im so confused …. is this amway???
August 30th, 2007 at 7:07 pm
Updated Scorecard of Lawsuit Victories:
Distributors 12, Quixtar 3.
TEAM+PEOPLE=ALWAYS WIN
August 30th, 2007 at 7:27 pm
Hi everyone,
Lively debates are great, they allow us to see things from different perspectives, however personal attacks are not helpful and are often hurtful, and they do nothing to help one’s cause in trying to help others see our perspective.
Emotions are high, we all are sensitive to what has been happening of late, but let’s keep it civil.
While I do not agree with the actions of Woodward, Brady and the other IBO leaders who were terminated for violating the rules of conduct and their subsequent filing of the lawsuit in CA; I also do not believe it’s right for anyone to say insulting things about any specific IBO or an organization, be it those IBOs who are part of Team, Legacy, Team5k or any other organization.
If an individual says something you don’t agree with, fine, say so – but don’t attack them personally.
We may not agree on all aspects; however we all chose to start our own Quixtar IBO businesses of our own free wills, regardless of which support organization we are also affiliated with, and we agreed to uphold the principles for which it is based on, including the rules of conduct.
If we disagree, there are ways to discuss and find consensus – however, just because we don’t agree with the outcome does not mean we can then choose to violate them and cast insults, and inaccurate remarks.
Sincerely,
Ros
August 30th, 2007 at 7:32 pm
This link will give you more knowledge of what is going on. From my understanding TEAM only wants to give IBO a choice to either stay or pursue a better bussiness without waiting for 6 months. And I think if Quixtar want TEAM to go then they should grant their request. I think it’s fair, because if I find something better out there I should be able to join other bussiness and not wait. That’s all
http://www.freetheibo.com/home.html
August 30th, 2007 at 7:37 pm
Sorry my spelling was horrible in the last post…was typing fast and didn’t proof read.
Point is….lighten up people…this is a ‘BLOG’ it is supposed to be “slangish” if there is such a word. Most of you that are so worried about Alticor’s “not being professional” in this blog, do NOT understand the nature of blogging on the internet.
But that is understandable since the Team has taught it’s people to stay away from anyone blogging about Quixtar if it is anywhere near a negative tone.
May I remind people that just because it is negative doesn’t mean it is not true…and just because a LOT of people believe something is truth (people that you trust even)- doesn’t mean it IS truth….
at one point in history, everyone believed that the world was flat…that didn’t make it true…..did it.
August 30th, 2007 at 7:46 pm
The ridiculousness of all this is Quixtar becomes Amway Saturday!!! All organizations will be forced to say yes we are Amway when questioned! The “massive” money Q is promising only is paid if your organization is accredited…that means 3 organizations get the promised money..lies, lies, lies…that’s all I keep getting from Q!!!
August 30th, 2007 at 7:50 pm
Ron,
Please Please - quit acting like Mr. Integrity. You hide the results of the lawsuit on your TEAM forum as good as you hid the name Quixtar in your business plan.
Ron has the worst integrity of any TEAM ibo i have met in cyberspace.
August 30th, 2007 at 7:53 pm
For those of you that are puzzled about why many of us make comments about drinking the purple koolaid….check out this website by the a leading Expert, Steve Hassen, on “mind control techniques”. I will also explain the “mind speak” at the “freetheIBO forum”.
He describes - in detail how the B-I-T-E Model of mind control which means:
B - Behavioral Control
I - Information Control
T - Thought Control
E - Emotional Control
he explains how each of these partain in particular to the A/Q Motivational Organizations like Team.
Here is the link to - Amway/Quixtar BITE analysis:
http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/a/amway/amway-bite-analysis-behavior.htm
Prepared by cult expert Steve Hassan based on former members’ submissions.
Disclaimer: Freedom of Mind nor Steve Hassan believe the Amway and Quixtar corporations are cults; however, we do have concerns about their Motivational Organizations.
WOW it explains why the “freetheIBO forum” is the way it is…….check it out.
August 30th, 2007 at 8:02 pm
34, yes if you go back to your own blog… you are more protected b/c Ron will make sure to eliminate the negative bloggers.
p.s. I wish i didn’t send the sentence in 38 about Ron has the worst integrity…. thats stupid statement.
Who pays Rons TEAM CEO Salary?
August 30th, 2007 at 8:03 pm
There are a lot of posts about whether the TROs granted mean anything or not, and upfront let me tell you I am not a lawyer or expert in this and neither I suspect are many of the nice folks posting here. Let me also be upfront that I’m supporting TEAM. That said, here’s some proper perspective according my humble opinion.
First: The rulings in Michigan only happened in the first place as a response to Qs threating platinums with termination if they didn’t sign renouncing participation with TEAM. No IBOs that I know of have been terminated after Judge Sullivan’s rulings.
Second: The clarification issued by Judge Sullivan only happened at the request of TEAMs attorneys, as a response to 75,000 emails sent out by Q to TEAM IBOs stating they would be in violation of a court order for participating in the TEAM system. After the clarification, all TEAM meetings have been held, and participation hasn’t declined in any area I’ve heard of, and contrary to some posts above almost all of the tools are still available except those having to do with prospecting, and the marketing plan. The bulk of the TEAM training system is alive and well.
Obviously, someone is lying about what all this means and Sept. 12 fast approaches. I heard a rumor that the reason Q is fighting this so hard is because all of the remaining board members are very upset with Q and if Q opened the doors at this point it would be a mass exodus out of town. I can’t be more clear than that because of Qs TROs against certain sources, but I’ve heard this rumor inside and outside the TEAM organization at the Diamond level and above.
My question is: If Mike Mohr’s statement to DJ Poyfair is accurate why haven’t the above stated actions threatened by Q happened? And why is the TEAM training system alive and well?
August 30th, 2007 at 9:32 pm
Whether you are right or wrong, your methodolgy, and the way you are representing yourselves in this forum are really juvenile and causing me to dislike Q/A.
Quite honestly, it has been your handling of this situation that has turned off my organization.
Thank you for totally messing up MY business.
August 30th, 2007 at 9:36 pm
free2bfree Says:
August 30th, 2007 at 5:19 pm
TEAM, We need to keep to our own blog and not let all the negitive creep in. Remember to stand together for each other and for TEAM as a whole.
Posting reply’s in defense only allows others to continue to throw mud. Let them throw mud and watch it bounce back when they have no one else to get dirty but themselves.
August 30th, 2007 at 9:37 pm
#44… learn how to spell. It is hard to place any value on your commentary when a simple word like “pertain” trips you up.
August 30th, 2007 at 9:39 pm
MarDJay - I’m a former research psychologist. Steve Hassan’s BITE model is bogus and been discredited by all serious researchers in that field. Indeed the original source for his ideas, Margaret Singer, had her theories comprehensively disavowed by the American Psychological Association. Take the BITE model and apply it to a school, a company, a sport club - it fits virtually everything - it’s nothing more than a Rorschach test to confirm what we already want to believe.
Time will tell - you mention your Founders’ Emerald monthly income of $5500. You neglected to mention all the other, non-monthly, bonuses you achieve at that level - care to share?
August 30th, 2007 at 9:39 pm
Hey Jody… How much more tool money do and Dexter stand to make if you succeed in crushing TEAM?
August 30th, 2007 at 9:54 pm
#31,
Please read immediately below the banner at the top of this webpage:
“Alticor Media Blog is the official news weblog from the Alticor family of companies.”
Official News Weblog. That sounds contrarian to your post.
If I may point you to the “REAL QUIXTAR BLOG” or the “Ada-Tudes” blog: those two are run more professionally and have more well-written posts, yet are not “official” posts of the Quixtar corporation.
Does anyone else agree with this stance? Y/N?
August 30th, 2007 at 10:10 pm
Just to see what the reaction would be, I asked a friend yesterday if he wanted to get into Amway. They just laughed as if I was telling a joke, and then said, “NO!”.
Get used to it those who choose to in Amway. You have the owners to thank.
August 30th, 2007 at 10:19 pm
This is what comes out of corporate communications? I have been preached to by this company the family values and Christian principals that the business is founded on? Tell me where in the bible it says being an arse is what Jesus would do. You people are hypocritical all the way up the ladder. You have to ask yourself….if the team is the fastest growing group and you manage to essentially kick all of them out, how do you think your “word of mouth” advertising that you profess to work wonders is going to pan out. I really don’t care either way but I will tell you this from an outsiders view the Team appears to have a heck of a lot more class than corporate….maybe you are afraid of something???
August 30th, 2007 at 10:33 pm
Chuck #10,
I think you’re onto something. We should slow down and simplify the process for the TEAM IBO’s to the level of Blue’s Clues. You know, make everything so a 3-4 year old can understand, then repeat the show for a whole week.
I’ll go first: Orrin = Bad. Quixtar = Good.
Now, back to an adult level discussion. Your judge friend has confirmed what most of us felt was true. But even so, TEAM has apparently LOST many of their TRO’s, what would your judge friend say about that kettle of fish?
LiveFreeOrDie #14,
You don’t read much of the blogs, do you? Many non-TEAM IBO’s are in favor of what Quixtar is doing.
jthompson #15,
See the other threads.
FiredUpIBO #17/8,
Got a link to back up your statements? What I’ve seen, this is a very complicated area of the law, and a payment is not very likely, especially since Orrin and Co. have been told for years they were breaking the rules, and at the end weren’t even interested in discussing corrective measures.
#5. Pull your head out from wherever it is stuck in.
Sad & Confused #19,
The facts don’t count in the business (actually, they do, I’ll discuss this next), but TEAM is entering another realm, the judicial system, where the facts DO count, and they are in for a rude awakening. They saw part of it in Michigan, but the CA case will be a MUCH bigger awakening. If they think Alticor/Quixtar is being nasty now, stand by for the courtroom thrashing….
The saying “The facts don’t count” is merely a diversion, to keep the IBOs’ attention off the bleeding of money via the tool expenditures.
Former IBO #23,
If the company wins the RICO case, it will be MUCH harder to get much traction for future cases. It’s called precedent, a legal term that ensures lawsuits are not repetitive. It is necessary, otherwise the court systems would be slower than they are today.
Ron #25,
I don’t think they were kidding. You don’t understand how the judicial system works, do you? It’s called an intentionally confrontational sytem. Quixtar was the first to go to court because the race to the courthouse is how it works, just like you guys went to CA because it is more “employee” friendly to non-compete clauses.
They aren’t required to tell the other side, just like all the TRO’s weren’t required to tell the other side (but they still managed to lose several of them Quixtar didn’t attend, I would love to know the details of those cases). Of course they started bragging, it’s called being agressive to protect your interests.
It’s your job to tell your side, your buddies with Orrin “Rosie Ruiz” Woodward decided to sue, remember? Getting lonely out there, isn’t it, Ron?
August 30th, 2007 at 10:41 pm
#46 makes some great points.
August 30th, 2007 at 10:41 pm
I found this interesting: after all the rancor and foot stomping from Q/A about TEAM “not disclosing that prospects were joining Quixtar” they don’t even state the impending “A” name anywhere on their own accreditation website: http://www.quixtaraccreditation.com/
And this is supposed to be their “setting the standard” website.
On Saturday they will “proudly” start the name change from Quixtar to Amway yet still have a link at the bottom of that webpage that says “Quixtar Sister Company” and “Quixtar Parent Company”. Why not just put Amway and Alticor? Now who’s hiding something? Seems like a double standard to me.
August 30th, 2007 at 10:56 pm
Hey im sure that the company has great insight on weather the Amway name will go over or not..
Hey they did all that research on the prices ..
and have been out in the field,researching.
And Im sure that A couple of the IBOs that have been in the business while it was Amway and during Q…
They didnt have a real reason to walk away from the huge businesses they had, they just got mad … I dont believe it not even for a minute ..
August 30th, 2007 at 10:56 pm
Anyone know why I can’t access the “free the IBO” site any longer? Was it taken down? or is it just my pc?
Thx
August 30th, 2007 at 10:57 pm
Jerad #26,
How long do you expect that wording to take? Are you planning on several months? They “changed the deal” several years before last December.
pink #27,
You’re clueless.
Time will tell #28,
Are the 192 pages from Texas available?
1. The early read on the blogs is people don’t care about the Amway word, sounds like you lose, with your loser mentality. Where did you learn to complain, rather than persevere through ANY challenge? Only when it’s convenient?
2. You can thank the tool profiteers if that happens.
3. The problem isn’t the systems, it’s the hidden profits. I don’t think JT is even an IBO.
4. I don’t think A/Q wants to “take over the systems / eliminate them like the UK”, they just want people to follow the rules. Most IBO’s don’t want free tools, they want to do away with the MASSIVE tool profits.
5. What’s left of the field only want an honest playing field. They promised “up to 80-90 million”, depending on how many qualified for the bonuses. The bonuses have to correspond to volume, they can’t print money like the U.S. government. Pay for performance, just like you like to preach.
6. Most Diamond pins are Emeralds today to begin with, what’s your point?
7. That’s because you were living a lie.
8. Have to agree with you here.
9. Haven’t you seen the new bonuses to make up for your tool profit money? Not nearly enough to make up for your tool income?
10. You can thank the tool profiteers for that as well. YOU included.
11. They both want to see Quixtar go down, and I think the class action case has a better chance, but Quixtar could get removed with the tool profiteers remaining on the lawsuit, as happened on the P&G lawsuit.
12. These blogs are so messy and open to all posters, they are virtually useless to use as you want to imply.
The saddest part for me personally, is you have many crossline friends that don’t have any idea what’s coming. You wish them the best, and that’s all? Some friend you are.
August 30th, 2007 at 11:01 pm
Amway, you’ve got a big head from all this…. just wait until the FTC investigates your “Pyramid” pricing, and your demand for excessive consumption (100pv = $300 ) for “consumables” which is TWICE average household spending…. and when the Koreans catch hold of your con… there will be another… Korean War…
I applaud TEAM for finally standing up for the TRUTH.
August 30th, 2007 at 11:11 pm
Conan_78 #30,
Didn’t I respond to this in another thread? If you are new to blogging, what you did is a no-no.
Ros #39,
You don’t understand blogs, do you? As soon as you try to be polite, someone from TEAM will come in and slam you. No thanks. Orrin “Rosey Ruiz” Woodward must get what he deserves, in as strong of terms as the moderator will allow.
jthompson #43,
How can you say these things? Don’t you know Ron is a man of character and integrity, wears an Emerald pin (probably not a qualified Emerald), and the former (and currrent?) CEO of Legacy, one of the groups TEAM absorbed? His wife even writes uplifting poems on the freetheibo site, telling us what a great guy he is.
August 30th, 2007 at 11:21 pm
NG #53: You’d get nearly the same response if you asked them if they wanted to get in Quixtar only they would just look at you like they didn’t know what you were talking about–because they wouldn’t. If you asked them if they wanted to get into Shaklee, Herbalife, Melaluca (or however you spell it), or any other direct sales company, they would laugh at that, too. Why? Because they aren’t looking. Besides, that is not a proper approach, anyway, whether you are looking to increase your personal front line or are looking for a customer.
August 30th, 2007 at 11:38 pm
jfs:
In your response to: “#44… learn how to spell. It is hard to place any value on your commentary when a simple word like “pertain” trips you up.”
Go get a life…so I made a typo… you can’t take the message so you needle the messenager….oh, yeah, you will find that behavior right there in the top of the list in describing the “B-I-T-E model”.
Thank you for proving my point for me.
August 30th, 2007 at 11:47 pm
Keep spinnin’ alticor, keep spinnin’
August 28
Group of ex-Quixtar distributors announce that, contrary to statements issued by Quixtar on 8/24/07, the judge today ruled in favor of the distributors allowing continued participation in Team meetings
Quixtar forced to retract its premature claim of “complete defeat” for the distributors in the case
To date, the number of TROs granted heavily favors the distributors over Quixtar, 11-3
August 30th, 2007 at 11:47 pm
Ros, both here and on the IBOAI Blog you’ve been writing some very uplifting and encouraging posts. Thanks for that and for knowing how to so gracefully float above all the commotion and yet still make lots of sense.
Willy, did you actually put your brain in gear before you wrote #61? Quixtar does not “demand” you purchase anything. And I just finished checking my personal “Ditto on the first” order which will process tonight… just under 150PV including the amount of XS Blast and new protein snack bars that I’m using to wean myself off my Starbuck’s habit, plus Nutrilite and other products I WANT to purchase and consume. About 20PV of that order is for samples I will use when showing the plan to prospective IBOs or with prospective Customers, which I will track and deduct as legitimate advertising expenses, in accordance with tax rules.
$300 is TWICE the average (monthly?) household spending on consumables? Including snacks and drinks? Not in North America!!! Not even if you are poverty-stricken and on welfare.
And the Koreans HAVE figured out how this business works, which is why their groups are so successful that Chuck Goetschel had to edit their stats out of his numbers when he tried to show in his “Goldilocks” letter of a few days ago how few Emeralds, etc. had broken in North America… he couldn’t make his case stick with the complete data set, so he had to selectively massage suppress data from the high growth “non-anglo” groups to make his argument appear less than totally ridiculous.
August 30th, 2007 at 11:49 pm
tex,
Are you an IBO?
August 31st, 2007 at 12:10 am
jfs #47,
Who is in your group, Miss Manners?
Medic1994 #57,
They already said it won’t be Amway for 18-24 months. They are giving prospects a head’s up. Unlike TEAM not using the Q word in Opens and Seminars a single time.
Brad #59,
Did you have normal access? I was using proxify because my IP was “banned” and couldn’t get in, either.
Willy #61,
How many examples of IBO’s with high retail do you think Quixtar will need to debunk the “pyramid pricing” charge?
Quixtar didn’t demand the high consumption, your upline did.
I applaud TEAM as they walk out the door.
Why don’t you go back to qblog, where you get more sympathy from the rest of your clan?
August 31st, 2007 at 12:14 am
Tex#60,
??? Q announced the name change years ago? Please…show me where? Years ago they announced a company sponcored and mandated education? Tex, you have lost any credibility you ever had.
Please, just at least be honest.
August 31st, 2007 at 12:50 am
Oh my God, is this really posted by a CORPORATE group at Alticor. this sounds like a child note, something to the effect of sticks and stones may break my bones but words will neaver hurt nah nah nahh. Jess grow up atleast act like a serious MLM and keep your mouth or hands shut until the final decessions are made, you only make Orrin and Chris sound sooo much more right (*** and of course they are ***) your writing and such only prove the point further.
August 31st, 2007 at 1:45 am
#61 Willy:
No one forces you or anyone else to buy or sell Quixtar products. Nor to become an IBO. Smart business people actually research a new plan before diving in. If they don’t think they can do the job, following the proper guidelines, they look for another opportunity that better suits them.
Did you do your research before hopping on the TEAM bandwagon? Or were you told, like many other TEAM IBOs, that you didn’t need to sell products? That all you needed to do was buy the products for personal use and sign other people up to do the same?
So basically, the group that you’re pledging your allegiance to has TOLD you that you need to buy overpriced products. And encouraged you to invite your family and friends to do the same, right? Rock on!
Keep buyin’ those over-priced consumables, kids, so we can continue to listen to you cry about it. Or send your resignation request into Business Conduct & Rules… and shop at Walmart!
August 31st, 2007 at 3:19 am
The corporation so far has missed its chance. It had the opportunity to become the “Wal-mart” of the internet. In a time when internet sales are growing in double digits, the corporation’s sales are declining. Why?
The corporation manufactures products moved through a system of distributors and that is still its paradigm. It made dad a billionaire. It is what we do. The Industrial age was good to us. Distribution is just the tool we use to move the things we make. We’ll add some partner store stuff for window dressing, but the main thing is selling what we manufacture.
Enter some Diamonds with the vision of moving the corporation more into a distribution mindset. A vision of becoming the “Wal-mart” of the internet. Begging for a pricing strategy that would help accomplish this vision.
Two different paradigms. Companies that make the leap from good to great do so with strong leadership and a strong vision. People follow leaders with a vision. People will not follow people who talk down to them, ridicule them, or threaten them. The corporation’s “transformation” is not what I signed up for. I signed up for the opportunity to create a Kiyosaki “B” business. The transformation is transforming it into a “S” business bordering on the “E”.
August 31st, 2007 at 4:56 am
Tex:
In light of all the chatter about recent court rulings and Qs claims, what do you make of the fact that TEAMs training system is not only alive and well, but thriving? Compare that to the experiences of Andy Andrews, Ken Stewart, and others and you have to admit this has never happened before that I know of. In past battles widespread panic had set in by now. And if Qs claims on “clarification” are true, why aren’t they doing something about TEAMs functions and tool sales? These recent events have actually fueled the passions of TEAM IBOs who believe they are part of a cause. To assume that the TEAM emeralds and new diamonds can’t withstand a six month wait is to completely misunderstand who TEAM is and what these folks situation is. I could be wrong but I see no evidence to indicate that TEAM gets hurt regardless of what happens in California. If Q stalls the lawsuit, what keeps TEAM IBOs from resigning and starting their six month wait while the lawsuit continues by those named on the suit? The bottom line is, TEAM is going to leave in a mass exodus and be successful as a leadership development organization and whatever other business opportunity they pursue, however far in the future that may be. We aren’t talking about Bo Short here. So really, what does it matter what Qs legal team does? By the way, still haven’t seen your question on tool profits asnwered, and still have seen no official claims by Q or their legal TEAM as to whether the 3.5% of sales to customers outside of Q is accurate. That little piece of information, which will be proven or disproven in 5 minutes on Sept. 12 is the only thing that’s going to matter in the court room. Either Q is abiding to the FTC ruling or they aren’t. I think it’s going to get interesting, but either way, if Q can’t fracture the TEAM organization then TEAM wins either way.
makingadiffernce
August 31st, 2007 at 7:48 am
Tex, why do you think it’s alright to post as if you know what you’re talking about? You are obviously a decent typer and have some intellect, but your rampant criticism is so baseless it’s starting to annoy me (maybe because your posts are 30% of this blog).
Are you bored, angry, or just some spiteful combination of the two? Every once in a while you seem to contribute an astute, objective statement, but maybe it was by mistake.
I’m concerned that people might actually be considering what you say (doubtful), but as a Team IBO who knows the details of everything you throw doubt on (the information is widely available), what’s your objective here man?
Please enlighten us!
August 31st, 2007 at 9:22 am
IBOfightback,
Well, I AM a pychologist…I have worked and talked with him and many others in the field that support Mr. Hassen’s work. He has NEVER been discredited. I have worked with many of your former IBO’s that come out and know that they have been in a mind control environment.
Mr. Hassen’s bite model is parallel to Lifton’s 8 points of mind control….
….get a grip guy….
….you are just as indoctinated as TEAM, just in (what is it, Network 21?) The one that has been SHUT DOWN in the UK. Yep, discredit the messenger…
…..make you feel better now……
….do you still think the world is flat too?
August 31st, 2007 at 9:29 am
To LiveFreeorDie,
In responce to:
“#31,
Please read immediately below the banner at the top of this webpage:
“Alticor Media Blog is the official news weblog from the Alticor family of companies.”
Yep you are right…the official Media BLOG, do you understand what a BLOG is…you show your ignorance of the internet and your ignorance for what blogging is by nature.
Yes, it is the “official” BLOG of Alticor rather than say “Joe Smoe’s” Blog from - who know’s where….
….do you get it….if not….go look around the internet and read more blogs…you’ll finally get it one day.
Best of luck to you
August 31st, 2007 at 11:21 am
75/76
i am not an ibo. you are wrong about your mind control books.
August 31st, 2007 at 11:34 am
Tex, if you are an IBO and leader in your organization, I am very sad for your organization. I used to think that your earlier posts this month were calm, collected, and informative.
Lately, that is not the case. I have seen you blugeon any post (TEAM or non-TEAM) that doesn’t confirm to your belief system. You are not only lowering your own credibility, you are honestly hurting the Quixtar/Amway reputation.
Think of others before yourself. That is what TEAM is founded on and that is what I believe in. Together Everyone Achieves More.
I wish your organization the best of luck under the new Amway. Given what I have seen and heard in the field, it is going to be largley an uphill battle. But, not an impossible one.
August 31st, 2007 at 11:38 am
They “mindcontrol” experts that say negative stuff about amway teams… have never been ibos. They knowledge is just like their theory. A lot of things guys know everything, but do nothing.
a critic ibo went to one of these guys and told them only select facts/opinions about the business and then the “expert” publishes a conclusion.
I spend my life immersed for 3 years with one of the top experts in world on human behavior. He can help people change limiting feeling/behvavior in minutes, not months like most experts… ex: phobics
He is almost a billionaire and has sold 50 million audio tape series…. so he has learned to apply what he knows.
August 31st, 2007 at 11:54 am
Jester-78
Tex will have to answer you for himself…
my take -
Tex is a “perfect melancholy” personality with some “powerful choleric”
He is very logical thinker (i think Ron is also)
If TEX becomes nicer in his posts… his workload would have to decrease… then what will TEAM ibos do with their day?
August 31st, 2007 at 12:21 pm
As to the question of whether Tex is an IBO, puh-leese! Would you sponsor him? He would be what we call a P R O J E C T ! ! !
Would you join his group? I doubt it. His personality type is one of the most repugnant out there–opinionated, always right, always ready and eager to point out the flaws in everyone else’s thinking. Debating, discussing, or arguing with him is like trying to debate with the TV; you will never get through!
Tex needs to feel important because deep down he knows he’s not. There are a lot of people with differing opinions on the blogs, but I have yet to see one with the deep-rooted issues this Tex guy has. I’m glad “freetheibo” booted him, and I wish others would too. He is just cluttering the clutter.
August 31st, 2007 at 12:30 pm
TEAM
Together Everyone Achieves More
True/Agreed.
Question is - MORE of what?
TEAM can do great good and they can also do great bad.
August 31st, 2007 at 12:55 pm
Humble request from your friendly neighborhood blogmeister: keep the neighborhood friendly. A lively bunch, indeed you are.
As for the actual topic of the above post, with respect to the TROs, what say ye?
August 31st, 2007 at 1:08 pm
back to the topic - TROs
12-3 in favor of TEAM after losing the only Court/Trial/Decision so far in Michigan… is like losing the SuperBowl and then challenging the winning team to 10 more games. They are like hey dude, we already won, why do we have to keep playing more games? TEAM is persistent “we keep playing until we win…”
____
LisBette - i think you are my favorite blogger b/c you are honest. You are not blogging Politically Correct… taking orders from TEAMs PR firm.
Without TEX you TEAM ibo bloggers would get very very bored. freetheibo already kicked out all the people you could debate issues with… so now you have had to come out to the other blogs to talk to people and defend you views.
TEX is a workhorse!
PROJECTS - yes one of my favorite ibo words. But hey! I saw the video of the 200+ TEAM ibos protesting/Showing their Support outside the courtroom. From the looks of it… TEAM has quite a few PROJECTS as well.
August 31st, 2007 at 3:34 pm
Tex:
You can be the next Orrin Woodward! I have heard him say about his yearbook saying under his picture: “Arguing, arguing early and late. If a line were crooked, he’d argue it straight!” Of course Orrin admits he had to change and I believe that you can too.
You seem to be so concerned about the “massive profits” in the tool systems, so answer me this. If the profits are so extreme, then why when I look at the Fortune 400, I find the DeVos and VanAndel family, but not a single diamond?
August 31st, 2007 at 4:24 pm
So by your definition of TRO’s does that mean the TRO’s you won were aimed at “Trying to Redirect your Attention” namely our attention?
And if so what were you trying to redirect our attention from what?
For starters… tell us about your attempt to undermine Google?
We all would be interested in knowing…
August 31st, 2007 at 5:57 pm
rroney #67,
Yes.
Jerad #69,
I thought you were referring to the non-compete rule change. I don’t consider a name change to be “changing the deal”.
makingadifference #73,
How do you know the TEAM system is “alive and well and thriving”? Wishful thinking? How do you know Quixtar isn’t doing something about the tool sales? Seems to me with Orrin and Chris resigning their TEAM positions, maybe they are doing something about it. The Diamonds may also be able to hold out for 6 months, but how about all the Platinums and who can’t? What happens to the TEAM org with a handful of IBO’s? If the 3.5% sales is accurate, it is much more of a reflection on TEAM than Quixtar, because there are plenty of examples of IBO’s who DO retail successfully. TEAM just didn’t tell their IBO’s retail was required and taught them how to break yet another rule by fudging their customer volume to get the bonus.
Kevin #74,
I am neither bored or angry. Want to try again?
My objective is to ensure the tool profit issue is in the open, for all prospects and IBO’s. Not just the fact there is tool profit, but the MASSIVE size of that profit. Why do you think Quixtar has all of the new bonuses? Don’t you see it is to at least partially offset the expected decrease in tool profits? It’s not like the higher pins aren’t currently making enough tool profit.
jthompson #77,
I don’t like the “mind control” or “cult” analogies either. I prefer to call it what it is, lies and bait-and-switch. But then, I’m not paid money to have someone sit on a couch and tell me their troubles, either.
Jester311 #78,
You have no idea what I am like in person. My major goal is to expose the tool profit issue. TEAM was a helpful distraction to that goal.
jthompson #80,
It doesn’t take much of a melancholy, let alone a ““perfect melancholy”, to see the obvious tool scam that has occurred. However, it does help to be a “powerful choleric” to keep hammering on this issue until the rock breaks.
LisBette #81,
Do you think the MASSIVE hidden tool profits are a good thing? You also have no idea what I am like in person. How would you know whether I’m “important”? I received an e-mail from the IBOAI Moderator, asking if I would be willing to talk to a very high level IBO (who will remain unnamed, for now). So, I must be “important” in some circles. What “deep seated issues” do you think I have? Do you have an issue with knowing the truth regarding the size of the MASSIVE tool profits? I’m glad freetheibo “banned” me as well, that’s a waste of time site, with a leader having zero credibility.
jthompson #84,
Why do you consider someone asking reasoned and reasonable questions to be a “PROJECT”? The TEAM folks are a temporary distraction, I have been on this and other blogs advocating for the truth much longer than the latest TEAM fiasco.
August 31st, 2007 at 6:02 pm
time & money #85,
No thanks, I can’t smile as goofy as Orrin.
One of the reasons is probably because most of these “big-shots” spend a lot of their money so they can put the goodies on display for their followers.
There is massive, then there’s MASSIVE. I know I have used the capitals to describe the tool profits, but everything is relative.
Hopefully, you would have to go back pretty far for Orrin to be a relative of mine.
August 31st, 2007 at 9:05 pm
tex88 - i need to look back how i wrote that. I didn’t agree with Lizbette about you or anyone being a project. that word triggered old Larry Winters stories… b/c he was a definite PROJECT and so was I. in 2001 i sponsored 12 wide… i thought they were sharp!
One of them was a mom and here 16 year old daughter. Hey she was president of international society club in high school. She knew a lot of people. the PROJECT word just makes me laugh.
Lisbette is funny. but i don’t agree with her
August 31st, 2007 at 9:07 pm
88, i agree - everything is “relative” in this business.
meaning?
Once you start making lots of money, the negative relatives all start being more positive some how, gee wonder why?, and they start asking for money.
I watched i happen to my Dad… It will happen to me also.
August 31st, 2007 at 9:09 pm
I must tell you that I am literally shocked at the behavior of Quixtar and their handling of this entire situation. The anger and bitterness that goes into all of their “updates” is just unbelieveable to me. That a billion dollar corp would stoop so low. How will Quixtar ever recover-just from this blog alone never mind what’s going on in the courts???? When you go on the team site - there is simply a statement of want went on that day. Their is no negative banter as to who is winning who lost - “just the facts mam”. I must say I am most impressed with Team’s handling of the situation - a class act.
When a company (quixtar) has to come out swinging as hard as they are and as nasty as they are you have to wonder what are they afraid of???
You also have to ask yourself why would these big pinned Ibo’s(IBO’S that have been in this business for Years - some 30 yrs plus) and have served on this board all of them for many years in one position or another take the position they have?? Don’t you think they know alot more than you or I do?? Especially when they have everything to lose??? They are using THEIR RESOURCES to make this a better opportunity for ALL OF US!!! From what I have been reading alot of you don’t get that!!!!
I TAKE MY HAT OFF TO ALL OF THEM - FOR HAVING THE GUTS TO TAKE ON THIS CORPORATION TO TRY MAKE THINGS RIGHT FOR ALL OF US SO THAT WE ALL CAN HAVE A SHOT AT BEING A TRUE INDEPENDENT BUSINESS OWNER AND NOT A QUIXTAR EMPLOYEE!!!
I can’t close without a special thanks to Chuck Goetschel for his freetheibo article documenting step by step what has been going on behind closed doors that most of us had no knowledge of. God bless you Chuck!!!
Inspite of all of this I still remain hopeful that justice will prevail and that when the music stops we will all have a seat - wherever we choose it to be.
God bless us all!!!
September 1st, 2007 at 12:18 am
Tex#87,
The name change is but one part of the policy changes. They are unilateral and far reaching. The company will be changing on about the same level as it did when they went from Amway to Quixtar. Back then they didn’t punish those who weren’t comfortable with the changes and left. Yet this time they have us trapped. Why are they handling this change-over different than last?
I can tell you why: They are making the plan worse, not better. This time it can’t stand on its own. And they know it.
I think you do too.
September 1st, 2007 at 4:47 am
Tex:
I know the TEAM training system is alive and well because I have participated in it, and know people in 16 different states that have participated in it and have second hand knowledge of TEAM members participating in every state TEAM operates in. “Participate” means attending all TEAM functions (none have been cancelled since the “clarification” ruling), and buying TEAM BSMs that are not covered in Quixtar’s rules: ie prospecting and marketing plan training materials. This has happened daily including today Aug. 31, 2007. If Q is “doing something about this” it would certainly be news to me and seems to me anything they could do to disrupt TEAM activities, they would do.
Also, the 3.5% sales to customers is something that has been tracked by both board members and Q for the last several years and if Q says they don’t have any records of this the board members who filed suit certainly do. Do you really believe they would have went forward with the lawsuit without solid proof of that? AND THAT 3.5% IS A FIGURE THAT INCLUDES THE ENTIRE NORTH AMERICAN BUSINESS, AND IS A REFLECTION OF THE ENTIRE NORTH AMERICAN BUSINESS. This is such a key issue because when Q was declared legal the agreement with the FTC was explicit as outlined in the lawsuit, and since it comes from the FTC and neither of the two parties the burden of proof has always been with Q to show that the majority of sales go to customers outside of the business. The 3.5% number is a reflection on the entire Q business not on just TEAM, who by the way has led every North American group in pv per IBO ratio for the last couple years since the introduction of the DOT!/STEP program. This was done with the xs line and food bar line that came only recently and is more competitively priced. That is a clear indication of how well other organizations are doing.
And what do you make of Mike Mohr’s comments on the Clarification issue? How about where he says TEAM is still not able to “sell functions and BSMs that have been banned” when Judge Sullivans amended order states specificly that TEAM members may continue to attend functions as long as they don’t violate 1-3 (which has to do with competing products and tools aren’t competing products). Then he asks Mr. Poyfair why he didn’t disclose paragraph 5 which has to do with returning records of LOS and so forth. He knew I’m sure that paragraph 5 had already been disclosed to all TEAM IBOs on the TEAM website, and Poyfair’s press release was for the benefit of TEAM members wondering about the clarification, not for people reading these blogs. The point is Mike Mohr knew this when he wrote those questions and of course he conveniently left out the part that Q and the IBOAI are not to destroy the documents and they must be made available to the court at any later date. He also know’s that the court order only names Orrin and Laurie Woodward, and Chris and Terri Brady at the top where it counts, not TEAM. Anyone who reads that statement by Mike Mohr, and doen’t realize that he is being deliberately misleading just isn’t paying attention.
And how about that ruling in Texas today? The way it was posted on this site the first few comments were unaware who the injunction went against. Ron Simmons cleared up that question. It went against Quixtar, and he ruled for arbitration outside of Quixtar’s usual arbitration process, through an ex-judge, and appointed by the court in Texas, IF Ron or his organization were to seemingly break a rule.
And how about that “were the IBOs gagged by Q from disclosure of tool profits?” question? You asked one of the best questions I’ve heard posted by anyone on this site directly to the administrator and I count at least 8 responses the adm. has given since your question, including another response to you about the launch of the Amway bus. But no asnwer as yet to your question that really matters. Oh I’m sure that was unintentional.
ADMINISTRATOR: Did Quixtar have a policy prior to AUG 9, 2007 that prohibited the leaders of IBO organizations from disclosing tool profits, especially to prospects and new IBOs?
September 1st, 2007 at 8:22 am
jthompson says: “TEX is a workhorse!”
I say: “TEX is a blog hog.”
: )
September 1st, 2007 at 11:05 am
You know what they say about Powerful Cholerics: “Often wrong but never in doubt.”
When they are kids - the’re called bullies.
Rule # 1. They are always right.
Rule # 2. When they are wrong…refer to Rule#1
If you submit to their wisdom, you’re safe. (Phlegmatics)
If you question it, they put you in your place-with moderaton at first until they lose patience because someone so inferior is too stupid to agree with them. (Melancholies)
Sanguines laugh and think they are not to be taken seriously.
If another choleric outright disagrees, they resort to name calling. (They call it sarcasm or blog-style communication to give themselves license to communicate with rudeness and self-importance.)
These people will usually find a point or two where they think they have a case, they build a platform there from which to assert their right to speak on every issue they choose.
Of course, I’m speaking of politicians here. IBOs would have been too well trained by their upline. They would understand that such choleric communication is rarely helpful in building sales, developing downline, or otherwise convincing people of your point of view.
September 1st, 2007 at 2:11 pm
_____
95, personalities and blogging,
Tim Lahaye who sold about 50 million books (left behind series) wrote personality/temperment books early in his career.
4 personalities in his mode (the oldest known personality model) and one personality is NOT better than another. He also wrote a book giving biblical examples of each one.
1. Powerful choleric - Paul
2. Perfect melancholy - Moses
3. Peacful Phlegmatic - Abraham
4. Popular Sanguine - Peter
Its rather funny if you read the books.
Jesus seems to have been all four…. having the strengths of each personality fully developed, with the weaknesses minimized
September 1st, 2007 at 4:04 pm
jthompson #89,
The difference is your Dad probably didn’t offer the business to his relatives.
When your relatives come to you, as a successful IBO, you hopefully already offered the business opportunity to them, or they found out at some point and turned their nose up at you.
If they come to you for money, you can simply remind them of rejecting you and offer to help them build their own business.
The story of “The Little Red Hen” illustrates this principle perfectly.
September 1st, 2007 at 4:16 pm
Barbara #90,
The TEAM blog has been carefully edited by a PR firm. This blog is “raw and (mostly) uncut”.
Have you tried a qualude?
Actually, it appears you have already had several, as the TEAM blog is so full of poopy and Orrin “Rosie Ruiz” Woodward worshipping, I have to grab a barf bag prior to visiting it.
Your “buddy” Chuck wouldn’t put out the tool profit numbers, because he said Quixtar told him not to do this. However, others put out their tool profits, so either one is lying or the other is not following Quixtar’s instructions.
Since Chuckie (the clown?) isn’t an IBO any more, why don’t you get him to cough up the tool prift numbers? The truth is liberating. Tell the truth, Chuck.
September 1st, 2007 at 5:07 pm
Jerad #91,
I have seen several positive changes, what are you talking about? You talk, but there’s no substance.
I even like the Amway change, as they will have to clean up the problems to survive in the U.S. with that change.
makingadifference #92,
Looks like Orrin and Chris had to resign from TEAM to keep the tools going, I’m sure they took care of themselves as they “left” the tool company.
Let’s agree it’s 3.5% retail volume. That is TEAM’s fault, because they hardly/don’t mention retail at the Opens and Seminars. There are plenty of examples of high retail volume among some IBO’s, so Orrin “Rosie Ruiz” Woodward is only finding fault with himself, then pointing it out as if it were someone else’s problem.
Poyfair’s press release was for the benefit of TEAM members wondering about the clarification, not for people reading these blogs? Then why didn’t he just post it on the TEAM site and freetheibo blogs? What a joke. Now Orrin “Rosie Ruiz” is supposed to be a victim? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I’m actually pleased with the arbitration decision, and told Ron this. However, a court would have been better, it is much more open.
I’m not happy with the non-response to the tool profit disclosure question, either. There also appears to be some groups who openly discuss this issue, which is even more confusing.
MichMan #93,
And I say Michigan can’t play football.
September 2nd, 2007 at 3:37 pm
Tex, how can you blame the 3.5% figure on the TEAM? The TEAM is just a sliver of Quixtar’s domestic business. Maybe the TEAM as a whole is above that average…have you thought about that? Maybe they raise the average. Sometimes, you seem objective, and other times you seem vindictive. You can’t blame all of Quixtar’s problems and shortcomings on the TEAM. The fact that Quixtar is illegal has to do with the marketability of their products. They own that issue 100%. When you say that plenty of IBOs build a successful business by retail, who? And don’t say Brad Doyle, because his experiment in focusing on retailing Quixtar products was a collossal failure. It had to have been. Tex, when 91% of all Quixtar IBOs quit after three years, that should tell you something. If the products were remotely marketable, people wouldn’t quit. They’d remain IBOs and reap the benefit of having access to good deals. Instead, they run for the hills once they’ve figured out the scam.
September 3rd, 2007 at 4:35 am
Tex:
Poyfair posted his press release on “Woodward vs. Quixtar et al” which in not a blog at all but and official site set up for those wishing to follow the case. There is probably some legal reason for this, but I can tell you the press release was later revealed on the TEAM site.
As to there being other groups who openly discuss tool profits with prospects or new people, who are they? I know that as of eight months or so ago no organization under Yager, Britt, Victor, or Puryear had disclosure, and all of them claimed it was “corporate policy”. Can’t be anymore specific than that, and won’t disclose how I know this, but if you know anyone who at that time was claiming any differently, would really like to know who they are. If you check out the negative info on our business on various websites you will find the only folks talking on this issue are folks who were terminated like Ken Stewart, or Andy Andrews, or someone like Bo Short.
Now if we both admit we only know what we’ve been told on this issue, consider this. Let’s assume, just for a minute that all these folks were gagged by Q on the tool profit issue. How much does that change the perspective on most of what is written in the negative about our business? Talk about irony! If you understand that making a profit on a $6.00 CD or a $25.00 seminar or $90.00 major ticket, if done without intent to be deceptive but to genuinely help people become better people and build there business (in that order) is a far more honorable business than making a much higher profit margin on a $28.00 box of laundry soap or a $125.00 frying pan. If we understand that, and then know that all of these past leaders who have been so demonized by Q and the public, wanted to be very upfront about a very honorable and ethical business, does that change the perspective on so much of the info that’s out there? If were honest it really does. There’s one exception, of course, we don’t fully disclose that no one except John Stockhausen, selling vacations to businesses has made enough money through the marketing plan to be financially indenpendent. That in the early 90s Dexter Yager alone had over 400 diamonds at diamond club, and last year the total number of qualified diamonds in all of North America will fit in a ballroom with tables (around 200). The deception, if we are guilty of it, lies in leading people to believe there’s a legitimate unlimited potential with Qs compensation plan, in order to lead them to a system that for most (at least 95% of everyone who’s ever seen the plan) is there only hope. Notice John Stockhausen isn’t around anymore? Notice there aren’t any examples of totally retail businesses that last without a system?
You seem to be missing it on the 3.5% of sales issue. This number is consistent with all (all) of Qs retail sales. In every organization. Not just TEAM, every organization, and as the lawsuit proceeds Q can put as many examples on the stand who successfully retail as they want. There are over a million IBOs here, and if it’s 3.5% across the entire business, Q hasn’t complied with their agreement with the FTC. Period.
Have you stopped to consider this is the first time Q has launched a PR campaign this vicious, more importantly on this scale? Why? Could it be that Shughart, Thomsom and Kilroy has already won several rounds of lawsuits with Q in the form of very substantial settlements and definately have played this game before? Could it be that never before has someone sued without seeking any money, strictly for non-compete with 40% of the North American bus? I know, you’ve been told it was 15%. It was, before partnering with Goetschel, Haugen, and Florence.
I’m of the personal opinion were getting ready to sit out six months. So be it. As a good friend of mine, who served on the board many years said, Q cannot afford to lose a single lawsuit because there would be a mass exodus. The remaining board members are so upset with the company, that if they opened up the doors it would literally be a stampede out of there. Doesn’t matter, TEAM is going to a million anyway.
September 4th, 2007 at 12:57 am
Steve #100,
Where did I blame the entire 3.5% on TEAM? However, they are the only ones that are suing Quixtar for having high prices, which make the products not marketable. I would be shocked if TEAM wasn’t dragging that number down, there is very little emphasis on retail in the TEAM system. I don’t blame all of Quixtar’s problems on TEAM, most other tool companies are making far too much on tools and not being honest about it. Examples of retail are on the various blogs. Read them. How do you know Brad Doyle’s efforts are a collossal failure, do you have his retail numbers? 91% dropout after 3 years is typical for MLM. People quit because they get ripped off on tools and can’t afford to continue.
makingadifference #101,
I don’t recall the thread (or perhaps in the IBOAI forum), but I believe it was someone in the Britt system who said tool profits were disclosed.
I am not aware of Ken Stewart taking on the tool profit issue, he was cut out of tool profits, which caused his lawsuit. Andy Andrews/Bo Short wanted to pay all IBO’s, which created an illegal pyramid.
September 4th, 2007 at 2:34 pm
Tex,
you are upset about tool profits. You have had a job before in your history. Why don’t you complain about that?
They make way more profit margin than any ibo does.
Your bosses at your past jobs never disclosed profits and income when they hired you.
You get WAY more info with Amway than any job or other mlm.
Do you want some cheese with your whine?
____
That said Tex - keep keepin TEAM ibos busy.
September 4th, 2007 at 5:28 pm
Nowhere has the FTC ever mentioned a percentage of “retail”, however you define that word. The FTC has never said that you must have Waltons type prices to qualify as a non-pyramid MLM.
The test, as per one of the Team websites, is whether uplines are remunerated from the joining fees paid by new downline. Nowhere is that the case in A/Q, but when the “tool business” gets excessive, you are sailing very close to the wind - because what is your product? Feel good meetings? Happy CD’s?
(I am not against business support materials at all, as long as it remains SUPPORT.)
On FreeTheIBO I have asked why TEAM does not become a motivational organisation, and completely divorce themselves from product?
September 4th, 2007 at 5:33 pm
And just a perspective to TEAM members: it sounds like you have about 75000 members. A/Q has
4 500 000 IBO’s in India alone. The US has a population of around 250 000 000. China has 5 people for every one US citizen. India has about 4.
Maybe America is to affluent to be able to appreciate Amway, because that is the only difference I can see between the States, and the countries where Amway is doing extremely well.
There is a big world out there outside your borders - Orrin et al was really trying to be a big dog, unfortunately they are only a tail, even if it was wagging at great speed.
September 4th, 2007 at 10:33 pm
Piet Strydom #104:
You said: “nowhere has the FTC mentioned a percentage of retail”. Go back and read the 1979 ruling by the supreme court. It is referenced to in Qs brief in California today. The court defined the 10% requirement, which is regulated by the FTC, so while you are technically correct, so are those who say the FTC requires 10% of outside sales in mlm. Please note that nowhere in Qs brief today, which is only an answer, do they even mention 3.4% allegation, and they certainly don’t deny it, which when this goes to trial is the ONLY thing that’s going to matter. If they weren’t in danger of perjury, they definately would have denied this central point in the allegation.
September 5th, 2007 at 5:15 am
Tex:
For the record, Bill Britt has a long history of complaining to corporate about being gagged on the tool issue. Be careful who you listen to. Remember, these guys are the ones who have been taking the negative hits via lawsuits and negative internet postings. Since we know that tool profits are not illegal, and full disclosure would stop them from being further demonized, why in the world wouldn’t they tell new folks about a very positive, value driven side of the bus? Think it through, from their viewpoint full disclosure silences all the critics and unless they have been gagged by Q, why in the world would they not disclose it?
September 5th, 2007 at 10:02 am
105/Orrin
Leadership 101 (Randy H. was in Dexter Yagers team in early 80’s so he has probably heard this much)
“Don’t ever let the tail wag the dog”
Orrin being the tail.
September 5th, 2007 at 10:52 am
good info at
Brief Responds to Lawsuit
(http://adatudes.opportunityzone.com/default.aspx)
Tuesday, September 04, 2007 by Beth Dornan
If you want to know what the basics of the California Lawsuit that Orrin and other TEAM ibos filed against Quixtar….(the trial is in like a couple weeks i think) and if you want to get Quixtar full response, go to this link. Open up the PDF.
Read page 11of26 (section C) and be reminded of what happenned on the August 9th meeting. Then read Pastor Dickies letter.
September 5th, 2007 at 9:19 pm
Piet - Amway doesn’t have that many IBOs in India
makingadifference - have YOU read FTC vs Amway? Apparently not. The court made no such definition Re “10%”. Indeed, the FTC in recent years has clearly stated “the level of internal consumption” plays no part in determining whether something is an illegal pyramid.
September 6th, 2007 at 12:02 pm
Now TEAM is going to Plan C - getting 1,400 TEAM ibos to sign a statement of their agreement with the lawsuit.
Ok so less than 2% of TEAM ibos agree with the Lawsuit! Oh, i am scared!!!!
If other ibos wanted to…. we could get 200,000 signed “affidavids” (spelling?) showing support of Quixtar in the lawsuit. We could get 200k by the end of the week.
September 6th, 2007 at 7:15 pm
I was in under Britt for 15 years & built to 4000. Revolving door, high prices and not enough depth-all twelve legs were from people I did not know when I first got in before I met them in a mall or something. I was prepared to to go ruby telling everyone in shouting distance in 1999 that Q was going to be awesome!…and Quixtar was born only it had cholic for a couple of years! The corporate leadership never addressed the pricing issues on basic commodities. I love to throw out partner store names like Bass Pro Shops, Dicks and Dell and Kellogs and you name it… but if you are not platinum you don’t pay close enough to the same price to make middle class America stay in the business. It is rediculous to think that there is a 9