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Alticor Media Blog is the official news weblog from the Alticor family of companies.
August 29th, 2007 @ 2:00 pm ET…
Clarification
You can post a comment or trackback from your own site.
The news yesterday was pretty simple. The Kent County Circuit Court issued a couple clarifications of its rulings from last week. The judge did not change his rulings, just clarified a few sentences.
So, no surprises from where we sat; we thought the rulings were pretty clear in the first place. The TEAM legal team remains oh-for-three — losing every time a judge has heard arguments on the merits.
But of course, that did not stop their class-action spin machine from trying to turn a minor legal procedure into some kind of PR landslide. Irksome.
Allow a little lawyer-to-lawyer communication to cut through the clutter. TEAM’s lawyer is D.J. Poyfair. Mike Mohr is our general counsel.
Dear Mr. Poyfair,
Please stop spinning.
Let’s look at some of the facts and context that you left out of your misleading press release issued late yesterday regarding Judge Sullivan’s most recent Order.
- Quixtar agreed with Judge Sullivan’s clarification. You might not know that, since you were not there.
- Quixtar IBOs STILL CANNOT promote or sell TEAM materials and functions. TEAM is still under injunction (par. 1-3 of the Order) and still cannot use Line of Sponsorship or IBO information to promote and sell materials that are now banned for use in the Quixtar business.Why would you leave this critical information out of your PR, Mr. Poyfair? Does it matter to you that leaving this information out exposes innocent IBOs to the risk of serious contract violations?
- And, Mr. Poyfair, why did you leave out the other “clarification” that judge Sullivan put in his Order yesterday? New paragraph 5 of the order reads:“Defendants shall return any and all information compiled by Quixtar that discloses or relates to all or part of the specific arrangement of sponsorship within the Quixtar business, including IBO lists, sponsorship trees, and all IBO or Independant Business information generated therefrom.”
Just tell the truth, Mr. Poyfair. Clarify that spin. Advise your clients to stop selling through our IBOs and return our data.
Mike Mohr
Filed by: Corporate Communications
Posted in: Alticor, Amway, Quixtar, Transformation
August 29th, 2007 at 2:25 pm
Where can we read the recent clarifications or the original order?
August 29th, 2007 at 2:37 pm
Utah: A PDF of yesterday’s clarification is on its way. And a link to the original order can be found here.
August 29th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
Although I generally agree with Mike’s position, I think there’s some spinning going on from both sides.
1. Does this mean they can meet but not sell any TEAM tools?
2. Does this apply to ALL tools, or just the ones that are pre-approved by Quixtar, such as prospecting tools?
3. How about the Legacy and 5K tools, or other sources of tools, such as InterNet tools, can they be sold to TEAM IBO’s at these meetings or through the TEAM website?
4. How hard is it to return the sponsorship trees and suffer much for doing so, as there aren’t very many “branches” to remember?
5. Is the entire clarification available somewhere?
August 29th, 2007 at 3:00 pm
Why are there so many discrepancies out there regarding the cases and restraining orders? Other states are supposedly ruling differently on the restraining orders than Michigan and I think any future clarification should be issued directly from the judge because these court decisions effect so many people and it’s hard to know which side is telling it the way it really is.
August 29th, 2007 at 3:25 pm
Ok, now i’m confused, didn’t the TRO issued in Federal court allow TEAM to continue with their own tools that had not been approved by Quixtar ?
August 29th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
It’s quite funny that the side that has been doing the most “spinning” is the one calling TEAM on it now.
Both sides are doing it, but I think by the tone of this entire blog site, we can see who’s doing it to a worse degree.
August 29th, 2007 at 3:33 pm
LOS ANGELES–(BUSINESS WIRE)–The group of top ex-Quixtar, Inc. distributors announced that the Grand Rapids, Mich., judge today issued an amended order of his Temporary Restraining Order (TRO) ruling last Friday. In response to the group’s request for a clarification of the order, the judge ruled that the injunction issued Friday does not preclude the holding of any Team leadership, educational and motivational meetings.
August 29th, 2007 at 3:46 pm
Orin & Chris Brady of Team within 6 months of their resignation date from Quixtar will start their own legal MLM organization which I believe will be bigger and better than Quixtar/Amway. The only reason for their lawsuit in federal courts is to get the contracts all IBO’s signed regarding the non-compete agreement considered void so that any existing IBOs who wish to stay with Quixtar/Amway could also join Orin’s MLM Team. Orin isn’t asking to shut Quixtar/Amway down or asking people to leave Quixtar/Amway. Only asking that IBOs be given the choice of free enterprise to run their Independent Businesses with the companies of their choice. Isn’t that the American Dream?!
August 29th, 2007 at 4:19 pm
There is now a link to the Judge’s Order. You can find it in the second paragraph of Mike Mohr’s letter above. Points 4 and 5 in the Order are the clarifications. Points 1, 2 and 3 remain unchanged.
August 29th, 2007 at 4:48 pm
Shaun #4/Wondering #5,
These aren’t discrepancies. They cover different issues, and are all preliminary rulings to ensure the damage is minimized until the court case can be heard.
Clint #6,
It is easy to see who is doing the bulk of the spinning, just go to freetheibo, looks like they are spinning so fast they are going to spin into a million tiny pieces by the end of the week.
New IBO #7,
They are welcome to start a lawsuit (and their lawyer and mama love it, too!), but I think it will take FAR longer than the 2 years they could have quietly gone away.
August 29th, 2007 at 4:50 pm
New IBO,
NO - that is not the American Dream. Based on the manipulation work in Orin/Chris’ web forum - it would be the American Nightmare being in business with these guys.
Its easy to criticize a 5 billion dollar operation when you (Orin/Chris) have never operated a traditional business successfully before.
JT
August 29th, 2007 at 5:06 pm
When can we expect to see an offical release from Quixtar that says what any Team IBO can and can not do or use, I do not see these unprofessional and childish blogs to represent a company that does 6 billion dollars I would think at some point we should get an offical release of information, until that the author of these blogs needs to go play lincoln logs with their kids
August 29th, 2007 at 5:26 pm
Moderator -
Are you really serious? Where does it say that people can not buy and sell bsm’s produced by Team? I have a copy of the Judge’s orders (which by the way is simply the Conclusion part of his opinions) as well as a copy of the transcripts and nowhere does he say Team can not operate. He says LOS information can not be missused - understood.
Team is not a competing business (Q rules state so specifically, no matter what you claim today) and BSMs are not competing products. We are all still IBOs using the materials for our Q business.
Isn’t it true that Judge Sullivan (not even considering all of the other Judges around the country that have upheld our right to purchase Team materials etc) in fact said that TEAM could continue to hold meetings etc?
August 29th, 2007 at 5:50 pm
Shaun Carter - other states *aren’t* ruling differently. Courts issue Temporary Restraining Orders when a dispute arises and they’re valid until the court can hold a full hearing. The Michigan Court issued a TRO against Quixtar on August 22, and when it held a full hearing it rescinded it. The other states have simply done the same thing. It’s no “win” or “loss” to either side until it goes to hearing and a decision is made. TEAM IBOs have been misled that these other TRO’s actually mean something. They don’t.
August 29th, 2007 at 5:53 pm
I’m still confused. If this Mike Mohr is declaring this ‘oh-for-three’ - then what about all the TRO’s from the rest of the country?
“In no less than 10 jurisdictions around the United States include 2 Federal District Courts the Company (Alticor/Quixtar/Amway) has been Temporarily Restrained from suspending, terminating or threatening to terminate these IBOs based on use or distribution of Team materials. They have also been restrained from disparaging Team Approach and also restrained from sending any communication related to violations of Rules of Conduct, use of Team materials or attending Team meetings. This is in effect until these TROs are lifted (usually 7 – 14 days) or an injunction is imposed at the end of the TRO period.” - Ron Simmons, Legacy CEO
Any thoughts?
I’m not a lawyer, but being that TRO’s are issued against the company against preventing us from being terminated due to TEAM participation, wouldn’t that mean that the Kent County rulings are moot, especially since two of the TRO’s come from a higher court circuit (federal-level)?
I’m beginning to wonder if this may make it to the U.S. Supreme Court, because of all the multi-state TRO-vs-TRO action.
August 29th, 2007 at 5:54 pm
Amway may be winning the legal battle; but surely seems to be losing the PR one.
Isn’t good will the most important thing in a network marketing business?
August 29th, 2007 at 5:56 pm
This is getting rather hilarious! TEAM forum website - they act with the integrity of a mad 5 year old!
Look at their timeline of events…. somehow they missed a COURT decision in their list of events…
Then they list Temporary Restraining Orders as Victories….
My favorite was when they compare Orrin and Chris as Jefferson and Washington…. and then they compare Amway to the “Crown” of England….
Can you imagine Jefferson and Washington acting like this?
It is out of hand how ridiculous they are. Am I allowed to call the moderator of their website a Mo-Ron?
Ok I won’t, i will behave - but this is funny!
I am not an IBO. I am not a against quixtar or against IBO organizations…. I am against stupidity.
TEAM forum… though it had some pretty cool people in its first week of blogging…. if anybody thinks the moderation of the TEAM forum is being done with maturity, fair, balanced, etc… then you need a cat scan.. check for a brain.
Its one thing to have a forum where you want it to be PRO- one side.. pro-team… its another thing when you run it like a child.
1. take only the new you like that fits the message that TEAM is doing great and winning!!!!
2. not only that but then take only the PART of the news releases that you like.
I hope the freetheibo TEAM forum announces that the moderation/leadership… whoever is running the website and forum is Stupid. That way I know they are not being manipulitive… its just they are mentally challenged.
They can’t think their downline is this stupid….
Please keep me entertained TEAM~!
August 29th, 2007 at 6:22 pm
Did you hear the one about the playground bully.. No one liked him so they all left him alone……mmmmm
August 29th, 2007 at 6:33 pm
Moderator: Uh, how come someone else is using my “handle”? I have been using “Wondering” and now you let someone else post? Does that mean I can log in as Tex and post for him? Please fix this issue and restore my handle to me so that my other comments made since June will be attributed to me. And I would kindly ask the other “wondering” to come up with a new handle. Perhaps, “Wondering 2″ or “Wondering too” get it?
Thanks, Wondering.
August 29th, 2007 at 6:36 pm
Where are my posts ?
August 29th, 2007 at 7:04 pm
Corporate Communications..
Thanks for posting the clarifications.
It is nice to read without spin either way.
August 29th, 2007 at 7:53 pm
Mr. Simmons: The moderator cannot answer direct questions pertaining to the context of a post. However, given that Corporate Communications produces this blog, rest assured your comment will get attention.
Wonderings: It appears to be a coincidence, though we do see you both coming from separate IPs. While we cannot force you both, perhaps you could each use different names?
August 29th, 2007 at 8:30 pm
learn2think #16,
What PR war? How many people outside of the business are even paying attention to all of this? If the publicity grows, haven’t you heard of the saying, “There’s no such thing as bad publicity”? Also, don’t you think the massive Quixtar PR machine would squish Orrin and Co., if it came out more publicly? I do. You would think the current skirmish was a spitwad in a straw fight in that event. The judge preventing adverse publicity is only doing them a favor, and saving Orrin and Co. from themselves.
Rick #18,
Who is the bully in your story?
Wondering #19/20,
Who could possibly try to pretend to be as clever as me and get away with it? If it comes to that, hopefully the blog can link the name to the first e-mail submitted, and reject anyone else.
Were you “wondering” where your posts were, only 3 minutes after you submitted them? Patience.
Administrator #22,
With respect to your answer to Ron, how about similar attention to my post #3? This “clarification” raises as many or more questions as it anwsers.
August 29th, 2007 at 8:39 pm
Ok, let’s clarify the issues. I got in the business in 1995. However, only four years ago AMWAY slipped in this little kicker about the six month non-compete and the two year “non solicitation” of the downline. Did I agree to this? No, I just renewed and by virtue of renewing, they said I agreed to it. Does that seem slippery to you? Well, it does to me.
So let’s get stupid here to illustrate a point. What if they slipped in a rule that they can take your house if you quit? You don’t know any different so a whole bunch of people renew and therefore, agree. One day, conflict occurs and suddenly you realize you’ve been snookered. Are we all going along with that too? What about your rights? Are you an employee or Ibo’s? Do you have any rights as an INDEPENDENT business owner?
Our rights have been trampled and Amway will ultimately be called on the carpet and shown to have trampled people’s rights. Amway set the tone for this debate when they published the now famous statement, “We would say we were sorry to see Orrin Woodward go. But only if that were true”. Class-less for DeVos and Van Andle to let some blood sucking lawyer make a classless statement like this about their crown jewels.
Team went from the poster children of the company to the scourge of the earth in two months. That’s amazing speed and growth! And if you think you’re safe and secure because you’re not on the TEAM, think again.
August 29th, 2007 at 8:53 pm
#8 New IBO says “Orin isn’t asking to shut Quixtar/Amway down or asking people to leave Quixtar/Amway.”
Hmmm…considering that Orin filed a 47-page lawsuit claiming that Quixtar/Amway is an illegal business…I tend to disagree with you.
August 29th, 2007 at 9:14 pm
*******News Flash********
Message to Legal Department:
Quick focusing on your job security and insert some ethics in your legal counsel. This battle will continue on and on with conflicting positions and ongoing tug-of-wars. You know what is best in this situation so speak to it. Where is the voice of reason here?
Message to corporate:
End the vendetta. The battle began with a stand-off against several smart people with huge egos. Why take the battle beyond this? More importantly, why let your legal counsel run a muk? You have IBO’s that want to continue building their businesses that just happened to be part of a system called the Team…so what. They still want to build your business, so let them. At the end of the day, we all know they will populate their system with original information from their new systems that will form. Give them time to filter out current inventories. What is the big deal? They need to sell their Team tools…yeah…so? Don’t give me your FTC garbage either. There is no legal precedent pending currently that would dictate this hard line. Many of us in the field have heard these tools and they aren’t out of line. And yes, I am one of the few IBO’s that stayed awake long enough to read the Rules of Conduct cover to cover. The IBO’s that are still in the business, that were part of the Team, have the right to form their own systems now…it is totally subjective. Give them a transition period for God sake. Won’t that keep the peace? Wouldn’t that be ethical? Oh, and let’s not forget the line item on your budgets…legal expenses. Wouldn’t this curtail all the TRO’s? End the madness and lets get on with this. People have better needs than to waddle in the muk. Who is your voice of reason?
Message to the Team Execs:
Can you say “oops”! Thanks for demonstrating to all of us how smart people can look real stupid because of their big egos.
Yeah, many of us aren’t thrilled with the name change…and many of us are down right pissed off we didn’t have a say.
Many of us are wondering “where was the IBOIA?”, and yes, many of us feel the family values of the business have been traded for corporate budgets and strategic goals. But “hello”…to premeditate a breakaway and have a class action prepared as a threat? Then to try and convince all of us and the world that Quixtar is an illegal pyramid? Because they don’t price properly? That will rally the troops…..NOT. Oh…and did you ever consider how self serving this would be?…Quixtar is ruled an illegal pyramid and then what?..you just took us all out! Have you ever seen the Hunt for Red October? Do you recall the scene at the end?
Russian sub C/O to the Captain after removing the safeties on the torpedoes “You arrogant *&^, you just killed us all”.
Please, look beyond you own personal gain and look what best for the team (to quote Woodward), dump the class action, wait out your time, commit to Quixtar you won’t sell tools to Quixtar IBO’s unless you get vendor status and go do whatever your heart desires.
It is what you wanted to do all along isn’t it (your actions have exposed your motives)? The reasons are clear, but we did not sign up for this.
If all of you (Corp and Team Execs) truly care about us little peons just trying to get ahead….as you have claimed you did over and over and over….end this thing…..oh….look at that…a little accountability here….shocker!
OK…I feel better now.
August 29th, 2007 at 9:36 pm
No matter how you look at it the prices are too high, we don’t like being looked at as property, and we certainly don’t appreciate our voice taken away (dissolving of the IBOA board). Dick Devos recieved my vote last election because of his family values and reputation of being a fair and honest man. I’m not sure if he knows what is going on in Quixtar’s/Amway’s legal department or not but he sure has an opportunity to be a hero and do the right thing…Free the IBO’s. There is no need for the reputation of either this man or the Quixtar/Amway company to be ruined any further, its just time to let us free to represent free enterprise!
August 29th, 2007 at 10:08 pm
This Just In!!!
TEAM leaders are still encouraging their downline team to operate their Quixtar Business!
I can imagine being at their open opportunity meeting.
“Now here is you (drawing the circles/642 plan). You are in business with two partners. One is the training and support, called TEAM, they are awesome, lead by Orrin W. and Chris B. Now your supplier and the one that powers your business is called quixtar.com Now Quixtar is a terrible corporation. In fact we/TEAM have created a FORUM to TRASH Quixtar and its sister Company Amway all day long. Quixtar and their exectutive leadership are a bunch of liars we have an entire thread on our website devoted to comparing Quixtar to Great Britain during 1770’s when American Colonies declared their independence and americans were murdered by the “Crown” (Quixtar) - Quixtar is greedy and they try to take away your freedom. Yet, please still join the businesss b/c we are awesome! (TEAM) and we are going to keep filing lawsuits until we win… so we can start another mlm company”
If i were a guest - i’d not just be confused, i’d be CORN-FUSED!!!!
How in the heck is TEAM Leaders still building a Quixtar business like Ron Simmons said they are?
JT
one of the many bloggers on TEAM forum/blog that was terminated b/c he didn’t agree with everything that Master Woodhead and Master Brady passed down the pipeline,
August 29th, 2007 at 10:33 pm
Ron Simmons - you say “We are all still IBOs using the materials for our Q business.”
I’m afraid I don’t understand this position? The founders and “leaders” of TEAM, apparently with your support, are claiming in a lawsuit that Quixtar is an illegal pyramid.
Why are you still trying to run a business you believe is illegal? Furthermore, why, as per the Michigan case, are TEAM IBOs trying (and apparently succeeding) in getting more people to join what you believe is an illegal business?
Perhaps I just have a different ethical standard, but this would seem self evidently contradictory positions.
August 29th, 2007 at 11:23 pm
Peace, message #26 - excellent post
August 29th, 2007 at 11:29 pm
JPW, I agree with you 100% and I too supported Dick DeVos during the last election cycle. If it is true what you say that he may not even know what is going on here, he really does have a great opportunity to step in and be the hero! You wouldn’t think DeVos would want any negative press surrounding him if he hopes to run for governor again. Maybe he can call his brother Doug and his friend Steve and see if he can put a stop to this mess. I think that would almost guarantee him at least 50,000 votes in the next election. After all what is the difference if Q just lets the TEAM members go if that is what they prefer. With that I say DeVos ‘08
August 29th, 2007 at 11:49 pm
Bill #24,
The six month non-compete and the two year “non solicitation” of the downline was put in after the TIF blowup, and was designed to protect your Quixtar business. You agreed, because the rules themselves say they will change from time to time, and if you didn’t act like a business owner and read the changes, it’s your fault, from both a common sense and legal perspective.
These are common types of rules in business, unlike your house example, which is so ridiculous it doesn’t deserve additional comment.
One of my favorite statements, “We would say we were sorry to see Orrin Woodward go. But only if that were true”. Honest and direct, good job Alticor.
If you read the original post, you would have seen Quixtar had issues with Orrin and Co. for several years.
August 30th, 2007 at 12:04 am
JPW #27,
What did you do, enter a contest to make as many errors possible in one sentence?
No matter how you look at it the prices are too high (guess you haven’t seen the bloggers who have huge retail operations),
we don’t like being looked at as property (that is called a figure of speech, didn’t you get the memo on that?), and
we certainly don’t appreciate our voice taken away, dissolving of the IBOA board (please provide a link for this error).
Don’t go begging for Dick Devos’ help after Orrin and Co. filed an illegal pyramid lawsuit against his family’s company, are you nuts? A bit late to try kissing up to him, saying you voted for him, smacks of desperation to me. You can do your new thing after you wait the proper time periods for non-compete and non-solitation.
August 30th, 2007 at 12:08 am
Tex,
exactly what is your point with the tool profit? will it help your business? If you are part of the Team it is equal opportunity just like a bonus from quixtar, do you share your bonus with your downline? they help their upline get to that level by buying/selling products (even the 3% person) so why shouldn’t they get a piece of the pie? I guess i don’t understand your beef with tools other than you are not a part of it and someone might be getting something you aren’t and you enjoy bashing and brow beating people to get what you want I am sure you built your team by these tactics also. every blog you are on you ask the same question that has been answered several times if you want your answer call quixtar and ask! they are the ones that don’t want it disclosed.
oh and quit correcting every bodies spelling it is very immature not every body is blogging 24/7 in EVERY blog like you
August 30th, 2007 at 12:22 am
TEX/32,
TEAM IN FOCUS
Dudes and Dudettes out there! Jthompson first saw the IBO plan through TIF Team In Focus. I even went to their first function in Nashville, TN. I spend a lot of time with them checking out the business. It was pretty cool but I did not become IBO through them. I sure was glad later i went into different LOS b/c TIF failed (they had full support from Quixtar - ask me how they failed and I will tell you). Bo Short, one of the 17 diamonds who separated from other LOS like Yager to form TIF, and one of the main TIF Leaders…. later went on Dateline tv show to condemn quixtar and then to use the media publicity of his name to try to start another mlm that failed as well… then tried to do motivational business.
TEAM has a lot of similarities with TIF… as far as tool system and it seems in their pride that they are way better than all other teams…
The 6mo/2yr rule should exist to prevent TIF existing again….
August 30th, 2007 at 12:27 am
the 6mo/2yr rule really is made to prevent “advertising to Quixtar LOS’s” like TIF founder Bo Short did.
Bo didn’t want to do the work to build a new LOS in a new mlm… he wanted to STEAL quixtars LOS with its million+ ibos….
This rule protects your business… it keeps losers like Bo Short from [edited: raiding] the Quixtar LOS.
This rule de-motivates former ibos from doing national telivision anti-quixtar advertising that hurt YOUR business.
August 30th, 2007 at 12:31 am
by the way TIF had some amazing people. Same with TEAM, i talked with enough TEAM ibos to realize many were very cool honest people.
What people need to understand is that even incredible honest leaders can sin. David and Moses in the bible committed murder. Pride and Lust and Greed can turn a great person into evil ways.
August 30th, 2007 at 12:40 am
jthompson #28,
Looks like you’ve never been to a TEAM open. They don’t do 642, they do stacking, drive a leg deep then start another one. Then they sell tools HARD, they do a breakout after the Opens where they promote the tools for over a half hour, and also have tools available at the back of the room during seminars and promote them HARD during the seminar and direct people to buy them NOW at the back of the room.
They don’t have to worry about confusing prospects with suing Quixtar with the illegal pyramid lawsuit, Orrin and Chris “invented” the entire distribution business in their Opens, and they never even utter the word Quixtar during their Opens or Seminars. Their tracks are covered.
ibofb #29/30,
Rhetorical questions.
I like my response better, naturally. You don’t negotiate with terrorists, including business terrorists.
August 30th, 2007 at 12:40 am
TeamRevolutionary #31,
I think Mr. DeVos could get a lot more mileage out of doing what President Reagan did with the illegal strike by the Air Traffic Controllers, put the screws to them and watch them squirm, just like you’re doing right now, by trying to appeal to someone who doesn’t even have a dog in the race.
Getting desperate and questioning your support of Orrin and Co., aren’t you? Just wait until the trial gets delayed by the various tactics the Quixtar lawyers will use. Orrin may have enough cash to get by, but he will look like the General sitting on the hill with an easy escape route, while his soldiers are getting financially slaughtered on the battlefield of life.
We know most of them live in Michigan, which has the worst economy in the nation. Just try finding a job to get by until Orrin can regroup the troops for a fresh battle.
August 30th, 2007 at 12:58 am
Peace #26
You said, “Message to the Team Execs:
…..Yeah, many of us aren’t thrilled with the name change…and many of us are down right pissed off we didn’t have a say.
Many of us are wondering “where was the IBOIA?”, and yes, many of us feel the family values of the business have been traded for corporate budgets and strategic goals. “.
Integrity - doing what is right even though right may not be the most popular.
The Team leaders have integrity, and even though it would have been eaiser to sit back and do nothing (I think that’s what you call the IBOAI), they took a stand for what they believe.
Those are some pretty big issues you mention above. I’d encourage you to take a hard look at how you can bring others into a business where trust is lost (the name change), values are in question, IBOAI is a fraud. Sounds like you have many of the same ethics, moral, and value questions the Team leaders did!
It’s all about integrity… they decided to do something about it. I hope others will also.
August 30th, 2007 at 1:02 am
Tex, JT,
Your treatment of Ron is deplorable. JT, in the same post you (incorrectly) claim that they are acting like 5 year olds in the other blog then coinm the phrase “Mo-Ron.” C’mon, step up your game.
Ron has treated you guys respectfully. Why can’t you return in kind?
Tex, I did read the renewal contract. Nowhere in there did they say that they were gonna change the name back to Amway. Nor did they disclose that they were reducing the PV per dollar ratio. They also neglected to tell me that they were planning on being the only education system available.
So yeah, I want out of the 6 month unemployment clause.
August 30th, 2007 at 1:50 am
Bridgett,
I don’t think you can disagree with the 8th posting since in the 47 page lawsuit it states that they are not trying to shut quixtar down, it’s on page 3. Have you read the complaint? If not I suggest you do before commenting on it or it’s intentions.
August 30th, 2007 at 2:14 am
Best Read is #26 Peace.
It looks like I am not the only one that sees mud splattered on all sides.
All 3 sides are acting like junior high school, ruining businesses, that have been built over 20 years, in a month.
(O, I forgot that the IBOAI that is left just decided to rubberstamp Q, making only 2 sides, attorneys v attorneys).
August 30th, 2007 at 3:04 am
let us all remember the history of Amway. AWA founded by a group of Nutrilite distributors that didn’t like how things were being run and wanted to go do their own thing. I’ve heard history repeats its self, but I’m not sure.
August 30th, 2007 at 3:06 am
Ever heard of the Ja-Ri company??
August 30th, 2007 at 3:34 am
Tex:
Just saw your first post above. I thought it was interesting that Ron Simmons got an answer, and you didn’t. I am hoping you do because I’d really like to see how they answer you. Mike Mohr states that “TEAM is still under injunction” and that “IBOs still cannot promote or sell TEAM materials and functions”. Both are incorrect. Only the defendants (Orrin & Laurie, and Chris & Terri) are under injunction. Not to mention this court order specificly states IBOs can attend TEAM functions. Also he knows full well that anything “now banned for use in the Quixtar business” is overruled in two federal court issued TROs that specificly prevent Quixtar from banning use of the TEAM system, except those tools covered in the Quixtar rules (prospecting and marketing plan related materials), until the case is heard in federal court. And also DJ Poyfair left out section five in his press release because the press release was basicly to 75,000 TEAM IBOs who received an email from Q saying they would be in violation of a court order if they participated in the TEAM system, and because section 5 of the order was already disclosed to all TEAM IBOs on a previous communication to TEAM IBOs. Does anyone really believe Mike Mohr didn’t know that?
But the grandaddy question of all is the one Q still hasn’t answered from your JUST GO TEAM post. Has Q. been preventing organizational leaders from giving full disclosure to new people about profits made on the tool system or not? And seriously, there has to be some good in you. Are you at least a Cowboy fan? They look like they could have a shot this year.
August 30th, 2007 at 4:22 am
WOW!!!!! did I just read this!
Big MIKE MOHR are you kidding? Are you a 5 year old?
This is not the play ground and you are NOW in HOT WATER IN CAL! Do you not relize this is going to be heard by the jury….They will kill the non-compete in a FED way! Don’t spin baby be carful for all of us that are not on TEAM. You can lose this and then what? WOW! I’ll Say it backwards, WOW!
#24 I agree
#28 they are building a community(& it may not be for Q)Walk up Folks It’s very hard to shut up 900+ platinum that are pissed off. Yes that is the # in the TEAM. YES Q/A should be very careful!!!!!!!!!
#40 The CAL courts will agree with you. & MIke MOhr is running scared. The Non - copete is not a good topic to take up in CAL!
What I would like is Can this just be settled? This is our lives!
August 30th, 2007 at 7:28 am
#40 - Jerad Smith
Over the years there have been many enhancements to the not only to the business, but also the compensation plan, that were not part of the renewal agreement. Can’t recall much of an uproar over those changes. The Founding Families own the company and have the right, whether or not you and I like it, to make whatever changes to their business operations they deem appropriate for their long-term success. Time will tell whether or not these changes were in their best interests.
Nothing in our contract with the company gives us the right to void our contract with the company because we are dissapointed in some way with its decisions and directions. Nor are we free to move on without sitting out per the 6 month inactivity rule and respecting the 2 year period of non-contact of former IBOs — as I believe the current legal cases will soon prove. You are free to go where you want and when you want, as long as you demonstrate your contractual integrity (a seemingly lost aspect of character today) and follow the stipulations in the contract you signed with the company that restricted your freedoms in the aforementioned areas.
August 30th, 2007 at 8:21 am
Ron Simmons
The Order specifically states that Team is not permitted to engage in any activities which violate Quixtar’s Rules of Conduct. See stipulation #1 of the Order.
Therefore, while TEAM is allowed to conduct its business, it is NOT allowed to conduct it with Quixtar IBO’s, as they are no longer an approved vendor of BSM materials/functions/training for this organization.
Quixtar IBO’s are also not permitted to use TEAM BSM for training or recruiting of new IBO’s, for the same reason.
August 30th, 2007 at 8:59 am
I’d like to ask a rhetorical question to all of you. If you built your IBO business to several hundred people. After which the corporation sneaks rule changes in the renewal agreement. You find out after the fact that (i.e. 6 month, 2 year) rules have been set in place. What are you going to do about it? Quit? After you’ve built the group? Hypothetically, what if Q/A made more changes, like name change, what if they lowered pv/bv and/or bonus schedules? What are you going to do about it? What can you do about it? Nothing. Perhaps try to change things through the IBOAI board, perhaps join the IBOAI board. And when you still cannot affect change I guess you’re left with few options aren’t you? Quit or deal with it? Nice way to have a business relationship. We decide, then you do or quit. I’m not really excited about sharing that kind of opportunity with anyone.
And what do you expect current Team IBO’s to do? Just stand around at home and wait for court decisions? Does it mean that IBO’s not on TEAM endorse the behavior of the corporations comments on company blogs? By staying in the business does it automatically mean they agree and stand behind the corporation? What if shortly many things get resolved? There will be court decisions, and noone knows what they’ll be yet.
It is very frustrating being put in the position of having a group. Being absolutely very new to TEAM, and everything I’ve seen, read or been part of, the corporation has done nothing but endorse The TEAM prior to this mess. They gave me absolutely “no” inclination that my decision to join TEAM was wrong, illegal or looked down on. I promote and bring a large group over, only 5 weeks later this mess. I believe anyone with a group could sympathize with that. What do you do now? Hurry up and quit? Hurry and join another “tool” organization? What if that one’s next? Build the business without meetings? or tools? Anyone here done that? Probably not.
What if Q/A decided to put in this next renewal, that the bonus chart takes 25000 pv to go silver? What are you going to do about it? Call the IBOAI board? hehe
August 30th, 2007 at 9:41 am
Tex: Perhaps you can, uh, address the TEAM execs with less, um, eloquent language.
August 30th, 2007 at 10:16 am
Cool!
Quixtar announced free shipping on $75 orders… see details at iboai blog.
Criticism is not bad if you USE it to your advantage. In between all the lies and spinning is some valuable feedback and facts….
Amway/IBOAI needs to b smart enough to Fear Not the criticism but also listen enough to keep improving the business. That is what I believe has happenned over the last few years with the Internet and blogging….
a military saying… “If it doesn’t kill you, it only makes you stronger”
Amway and IBOS are going getting better and better and smarter and smarter and stronger and stronger….. the critics (add TEAM now) act like a boot camp that is only making this business better and better!
p.s. Oral Roberts has a book called “Still doing the impossible” (i think that is the title) and he talks a lot about USING your critics, learning form them, etc…. yet without “giving them your goat”
Thanks!
August 30th, 2007 at 10:52 am
Alticor Blog Administrator, can you confirm whether the lead author on the blog posts here is in fact Rob Zeiger? I’m comparing the tone of the posts with this quote from the Aug. 24 post:
“After these defeats, Mr. Woodward’s credibility is down to zero,” said Quixtar spokesman Rob Zeiger. “Woodward has ignored our rules, abused the legal process, defied the court, and misled the people who believed in him.
“We stand by our main point: Terminating Orrin Woodward and ridding Quixtar of his abusive business practices was absolutely the right thing to do.”
Isn’t Mr. Zeiger in fact the Director of Communications (PR) for Alticor, not Quixtar? I’m not making any judgement on the factual accuracy of the statements, just referencing the tone of the posts. Can you confirm?
August 30th, 2007 at 12:06 pm
Chuck#40,
Please sir, be reasonable. Remember when Q made the change from A to Q? Everyone had an opportunity to leave. It was an easy opportunity to give as the business was becoming better.
Now we can’t leave without penalties if we don’t like the new changes. The reason is simple. The business has gotten sour. This time they don’t dare give us an option to leave.
Hey Tex, if you get banned from this blog as you have from every other blog will that also be TEAM’s fault or are you gonna finally take responsibility for your behaviour?
August 30th, 2007 at 1:06 pm
Why does Tex continue to have unlimited access to address TEAM execs or anyone else? He articulated his point of view here and elsewhere on multiple earlier posts. He is a Johnny One Note whose drone has long since moved from a valid concern to that of a constant whine. Certainly I can note he has been permitted to regurgitate yet again and skip his post, but since his rantings are immoderate, why don’t you, Mr. Moderator, exercise your capacity to review his post and condense it for us with a simple entry like, “Tex once again has the same thing to say” and save the space for some new point of view. It is not too much of a leap for a new poster to conclude that this is Tex’s blog as we see his ravings constantly and without moderation.
Please, Mr Moderator, help clear the static from this line.
August 30th, 2007 at 1:41 pm
Brad
Awesome comment. You have excellent points.
August 30th, 2007 at 1:43 pm
Am I missing something here? I read Mr. Mohr’s clarification post (above), and then I clicked his link to the judge’s clarification and read that also. What Mr. Mohr claims the judge said and what the judge really said appear to differ (in my humble opinion). The judge said:
1. The DEFENDANTS (Orrin & Laurie Woodward and Chris & Terri Brady) cannot use their LOS to sell, promote, distribute COMPETING products….., or otherwise interfere with the business of Quixtar or its IBOs.
2. The Defendants (see the four names in #1) cannot …recruit other IBOs to COMPETE WITH QUIXTAR’S business….
3. Defendants cannot disparage or diminish the reputation of Quixtar.
4. This injunction does NOT preclude the holding of ANY Team leadership, educational and motivational meetings, provided they do not violate 1,2, or 3.
5. Defendants shall return….
I am not an attorney, but where does it say, Mr. Mohr, that IBOs in good standing cannot promote or sell Team materials or functions?
August 30th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
Let me see if I can help you with the real score here…
*hon-es-ty
1. The quality or fact of being hones; uprightness and fairness.
2. Truthfulness, sincerity, or frankness.
3. Freedom from deceit or fraud.
Source: www.dictionary.com
Now for the record of lawsuits (present & past)against Quixtar/Amway/Alticor.
1.Busiere v. Quixtar Corp. et al. (C.D. Cal. 2007-Present)
2.NCR Corp. v. Alticor Inc. (N.D. Ill.. 2007-Present)
3.Pokorny et al. v. Quixtar Corp. et al. (N.D. Cal. 2007-Present)(THIS IS A CLASS ACTION BASED ON RICO)
4.Stewart & Assoc. Int’l Inc. et al. v. Quixtar Inc., et al.
5.Nitro Distributing et al. v. Alticor Inc., et al.W.D. Mo. 2003-): antritrust case.
6.Tristrata Technology, Inc. v. Alticor Inc., et al. (D.Del. 2005-2006)
7.Crooks et al v. Quixtar in South Carolina
8.Fish et al v. Quixtar in New Hampshire
9.Ron Simmons et al v. Quixtar in Texas
10.TRO Filed – Berks County, PA - Granted
11.TRO Filed Gwinnette County, GA - Granted
12.TRO Filed Wright County, GA - Granted
13.TRO Filed Columbia, SC - Granted
14.TRO Filed in Genessee County, MI - Granted
15.TRO Filed in Oakland County, MI - Granted
16.TRO Filed Wayne County, MI - Granted, August 20, 2007, Gowan v. Quixtar
16. TRO Filed Montgomery County, TX - Granted August 21, 2007, Walker v. Quixtar
17. Pending TROs: Reading, PA; Hartford, CT; Lansing, MI; Maricopa County, AZ
18.LAWRENCE et al v. QUIXTAR, INC 8/27/07
19.Walker v. Quixtar, Inc 8/27/07
20.Orrin Woodward et al v. Quixtar, Inc 8/09/07
21.Stewart et al v. Quixtar, Inc. 7/13/07 (#2)
22.Kenneth Busiere v. Quixtar Inc et al 6/20/07
23.NCR Corporation v.Alticor Inc. et al 2/22/07
24.MIDDLETON et al v. QUIXTAR INC 2/16/06
25.Stewart et al v. Quixtar, Inc. et al 11/3/05
26.Stewart & Associates International, Inc. et al v. Quixtar, Inc. et al 9/21/05
etc, etc, etc,…Any questions…?
August 30th, 2007 at 2:03 pm
ok results is the name of the game mr. former ibo.
Go and try to sell TEAM tools to Quixtar IBO’s…and see what happens!
The name of the game is results… and TEAMs has LOST priveleges they once had. (how do you spell priveliges?)
August 30th, 2007 at 2:06 pm
Jerad #41,
All of my needling of Ron is done in a humorous spirit, which sometimes doesn’ come across in writing. However, he did start the barbs, when he made fun of my “Tex” handle. I do my best to treat other bloggers like they treat me, and sometimes I forget who said what, when, etc. But if you can’t take it, don’t dish it out.
The name change probably wouldn’t show up in the renewal contract. Do you get the Achieve magazine? The inside front cover advertised the adatudes blogs a couple of months ago. YOUR upline knew, ask them why they didn’t tell you. I suggested Quixtar advertise it stronger, such as on the front part of the Quixtar site or via e-mail, but I understand their choice to make the news more gradual and give the upline a chance to figure out how they would tell their downline, rather than have the appearance of shoving it down everyones’ throat. It looks like many upline, such as mine, chose to not inform their downline, which they also have to live with. No method would have been perfect.
AEM #42/4/5,
No, TEAM doesn’t want to shut down Quixtar. They just want the courts to declare them to be an illegal pyramid. Then the Quixtar IBO’s can join the new “character and integrity” MLM Orrin and Co. are starting up. Good plan, Orrin. Too bad it’s more transparent than air. Also too bad Nutrilite didn’t have similar rules in place to defend themselves, isn’t it? But then again, the MLM industry was much less advanced than it is today. Oh, the good old days….
makingadifference #46,
Looks to me Ron got a response, but not an answer. I don’t care if I get a response, I just want an answer.
If you don’t think there will continue to be one-sided messages from both sides, you’re kidding yourself. That’s why I asked to see the actual documents, so I can separate the facts from the posturing.
As I wrote on another thread, I still haven’t heard from Quixtar whether they instructed upline not to disclose tool profits, and I’m not a happy camper.
The Cowboys do look decent. It all boils down to injuries.
New Platinum #47,
Let’s say you win in CA. Ever heard of appeal, which would take place outside of Commufornia? Orrin and Co. will be pleading for mercy when their tool profit filled wallets run dry.
Chuck #48,
Good points, there have been a number of Amway/Quixtar income enhancements over the years. There have been several new enhancements announced, and perhaps even more to come in the near term.
Brad,
The 6 month/2 year rule protects those with a group most of all. Orrin and Co. obviously didn’t think through the results their termination/resignation had on their IBO’s or the other IBO’s. But when you’ve been getting rich on tool money, it’s par for the course.
If A/Q makes bad rules, they will also suffer. So far, the rule changes I’ve seen are positive for IBO’s. Not that the rules are easy to understand, but that’s another issue.
Administrator #51,
Okay, that was a little too much “potty mouth”, but all I am doing is providing a “fair and balanced” retort to some of the hogwash on the freetheibo site. How’s this?
Peace #26,
*******News Flash********
Message to Legal Department:
Sic ‘em!
Message to corporate:
Keep tightening the screws and maintain the pressure until they lose the court case or say “Uncle”.
Message to the Team Execs:
Give it up.
August 30th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
rdknyvr: The blog is authored by multiple people and reflects the company’s official positioning on issues. Rob is director of corporate communications for Alticor. He was chosen to represent the company for interviews on the legal developments in this case. As spokesman, his comments reflect the company’s official position as well.
Folks: A number of you have inquired about the TROs. You may then be interested in the following post. As for some other questions directed to CC, they are being addressed in order. Thank you for your patience.
Tex: Much better; much obliged. As for making you and others happier campers, read the above.
August 30th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
Ya’ll need to share the love… www.iboaiblog.org they are responding to many of your questions….
You have heard what the IBOAI board thinks about all this Amway Transformation stuff… why don’t you ask them!
Its a good place to sort out fact vs. fiction.
Click on the comments section.
You can also email the iboai board and they will reply to you.
August 30th, 2007 at 3:35 pm
“to much tex” #55 wants to rid “Tex” of these blogs. Your problem is you can’t handle the truth and Tex can dish it out!
Go Tex go! I vote you permanent member of the IBOAI board. You have a better grasp of the business than most of the past and present board members. That is pretty amazing for someone that only has 2 front line. Oh, I forgot, you’re in the “team” system and that’s what they teach.
As clever as you seem to be, I’m scratching my head wondering how it is you didn’t see right through the entire “Team” scam early on.
Have you checked with your upline…you might be one of the 900 platinums (if this is true) in the two legs “team” has and you don’t even know it!
August 30th, 2007 at 4:41 pm
FIRST OF ALL, I SUPPORT the non-TEAM IBO’s and Q/A in the current situation thrust on all of us by the “leaders” of TEAM. BUT, based on the administrators following comments: “The blog is authored by multiple people and reflects the company’s official positioning on issues. Rob is director of corporate communications for Alticor. He was chosen to represent the company for interviews on the legal developments in this case. As spokesman, his comments reflect the company’s official position as well”, I AM VERY CONCERNED ABOUT DECISION MAKING AT THE HIGHEST CORPORATE LEVEL. For me, Mr. Mohr’s message is a disgrace and to have the administrator say that his message “represents the company” is tremendously disappointing. Somewhere there is a disconnect; the type of communication put out by the DIRECTOR OF CORPORATE COMMUNICATION should not be so flippant and petty. Just the facts make the point much better than Mr. Mohr.
Please make sure we, IBO’s and Q/A and Alticor, are represented in the most professional manner possible. This kind of communication is totally unnecessary and does nothing to help us, IBO’s who believe in Q/A, stand up for the right way of doing business. Pettiness and flippancy are not pretty and they certainly are not professional. Please have a reliable source review all posts before they are made and that obviously means you need to choose a different “OFFICIAL” voice in legal matters. Thanks.
August 30th, 2007 at 5:48 pm
Tex - is there a public TEAM schedule of meetings or anything in Texas? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Anyone?
August 30th, 2007 at 6:02 pm
Jared,
I honestly don’t have anything against Ron Simmons personally.. most of my blogs are in the same attention grabbing nature that the freetheibo forum has about quixtar.
free the ibo’s target is amway
my target is TEAM leadership this month
I bet if i got to know Ron, orrin, Chris… (before this fiasco) that they are cool people… we would relate and share a lot in life philosophies…
Many of my blogs is to expose the comedy-like behavior of the freetheibo forum.
I love studying human behavior and success principles…. TEAM is just giving me great entertainment.
As i have said many many times… i think most of the TEAM downline ibos in the freetheibo forum were really cool. We were starting to get along very well when me and my 80 conversations were banned from the forum without a note of explanation. At the same time, someone called me a curse word and was not banned.
Orrin, Chris, Ron… they probably are incredible people….. and I know that David as recorded in the bible was also an incredible person… btw he committed murder and adultery.
There has not been a “perfect” person ever in the history of the world except for Jesus in terms of performance in never stepping out of the LOVE/AGAPE commandment.
When people get mad, their thinking processes changes, and they lose self-control.
in all my blogs i have tried to separate TEAM executive/leadership/forum from “team” (lowercase) downline ibos.
August 30th, 2007 at 7:40 pm
Tex:
Just saw your answer and thought by now the administrator would say something about whether or not Q has gagged the leaders of the board on the tool profits issue. Could that be the real history of Qs discussion with TEAM leaders for the last several years. People who were there on the side of TEAM, including those who just recently joined with TEAM say that all of their materials that fall under rule 7.whateveritis have been content reviewed, and TEAMs depth building approach had Qs stamp of approval. This is an interesting issue which I have no doubt is backed up in writing, and since someone is lying this should all come out eventually.
Another interesting issue is the latest claims from both sides about what recent court rulings mean. All of these court rulings happened because Q threatened the platinums with termination, and after the 3 rulings in Michigan sent out 75,000 emails telling TEAM members they would be in violation of a court order for participating in the TEAM system (interesting vague and seemingly sweeping choice of words there, not specific enough to be incriminating maybe, but my 8 year old picked up on the intention immediately). Result so far? No one besides former board members have been terminated, and TEAM meetings have grown weekly at about the rate they were before Aug 9, and TEAM materials are still available to at least myself that I know of. What do you make of this?
Also wondering if you think the Sept. 12 date can be postponed by Qs attorneys. Don’t really know but I do have access to a couple of the terminated IBOs, and my understanding is that DJ Poyfair, Orrin’s attorney, is the expert in matters of network marketing cases. In other words he’s the guy often called in to testify for one side of the other as THE recognized expert. I also understand his personal record in court is 49 wins and 1 loss and almost a third of these in network marketing cases where he’s undefeated. I also hear that they filed in California where no non compete rule for any company has ever been upheld (that’s interesting coming from a liberal state). I can’t state as fact for obvious reasons that Qs legal department has to date done exactly what Orrin’s legal TEAM expected. Colt’s are a good team with a great leader in Peyton, I think it comes down to Chargers, Cowboys, or Colts, but you’re right when you say it comes down to injuries.
August 30th, 2007 at 9:23 pm
Administrator #61,
Thanks, but I liked the first one better.
jthompson #62,
Shame on you. The last thing the TEAM IBO’s want to be confused with are facts.
Greg #63,
I only saw the TAM system recently, but the ones I was using before weren’t much better. Only less vocal, they were smart enough not to draw undue attention to their “arrangement” with the tool profits. Unlike Orrin “Rosie Ruiz” Woodward.
jthompson #64,
It isn’t public, but I can get you the times/locations. Did you see my message on the other thread? All I need is an e-mail you have that you can allow the trash you will get from the TEAM people who see it, or I can get you on another site that has private messaging.
August 30th, 2007 at 9:31 pm
This is like watching a news debate. Alticor is in a lose-lose situation though. No matter the outcome of the September hearing they have created masses of critics whose negetive messege about them will spread to reach masses more. Totally counter-productive to their objective of growing good will toward the Amway brand. All because of the fixed profit margins the owning families have. There is something called a P/PC balance, and when it came time to feed the goose Alticor choked it.
August 30th, 2007 at 11:28 pm
#42 AEM, I did read the lawsuit.
See my comment (#230)
http://media.alticorblogs.com/2007/08/10/just-go-team/comment-page-3/#comments
August 31st, 2007 at 2:57 am
“Advise your clients to stop selling through our IBOs”
Since when does Alticor own IBOs. Doesn’t the I stand for Independent. I started an IBO business with the dream of escaping a “boss” who thinks he owns me. I didn’t register to become someone else’s property. I’ve shared the plan with my children and other relatives, now I find out that they are your IBOs and IF I leave I’ll be in violation of court orders if I have a list of my own family (part of my LOS.
PS Do I have to turn in my subscriptions to Success and Guideposts and the books I bought off Amazon. They haven’t been approved.
August 31st, 2007 at 9:49 am
TEX - thanks buddy,
can you email me a private msg through the www.thetruthaboutamway.com site
I really will go to a TEAM meeting
August 31st, 2007 at 10:04 am
AEM #69,
I’m glad you think that way, because if you haven’t heard, there’s no such thing as bad publicity.
Sure, Alticor could still screw it up, but now that they’re in the limelight, there is added incentive to do the right things.
Thank you AEM, I’m sure Orrin “Rosie Ruiz” Woodward is proud of you.
I’ll bet you thought the Bears were going to win the last Superbowl after they ran the opening kickoff back for a touchdown, didn’t you?
August 31st, 2007 at 10:28 am
TEX - do you have a website that has all your thoughts about tools in one place.
I appreciate your great activity on the internet and am trying to clarify your view on a couple things.
I read you don’t think tool profits are illegal… and i also heard Quixtar does not want tool profits made known…
I have a feeling your beef with tool profits has possibly to do with you believing in the “moral amount” - that a certain amount of income and profit is ok… but too much and its immoral? (greg duncan private franchising CD)
Anthony Robbins and Steven Covey make a much bigger income and bigger profit margin than IBOs on their cds, books, seminars….
IBOs that make money from tools (platinums and up) are the ones that did the work and have the skill to promote these tools.
Show me some diamonds that don’t use tool and succeeded in the last 10 years.
Ok sorry guys - i will get back on topic
August 31st, 2007 at 8:18 pm
I am an inactive IBO, I am NOT in TEAM, and I work in corporate communications for a multi-billion dollar, multinational pharmaceutical company.
I am shocked by the incredibly unprofessional posts by the Alticor/Quixtar communication team. If this blog is (per post #61) “authored by multiple people and reflects the company’s official positioning on issues”, then the “multiple people” need to be fired and this multi-billion dollar company needs to hire a communications consulting team that will show them how to comport themselves as business professionals.
You reflect very poorly on the company and are an embarrassment to the legion of IBO’s who DO act professionally.
August 31st, 2007 at 8:51 pm
jthompson #72/4,
I would love to, but ibofb has “banned” me, just like freetheibo. And they both did it TWICE! (used 2 names at freetheibo site, ibofb temporarily “forgave” me) Perhaps he could give me another temporary “reprieve”, or we could come up with another option.
I don’t have my own site, as I don’t have the interest or time to set one up and maintain it. Plus, the corporate blogs have much more credibility than any independent site, but you can find a summary of the facts and what I believe the proper conclusion these facts lead to, here: http://www.thetruthaboutamway.com/index.php/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,91/func,view/id,202/catid,14/
This summary should clarify my views.
I read you don’t think tool profits are illegal…[correct, but I also believe hiding tool profits from your fellow “teammates” and “business partners” (the uplines’ terms, not mine) are unethical.
I also heard Quixtar does not want tool profits made known… [Quixtar has neither confirmed or denied this issue.]
I have a feeling your beef with tool profits has possibly to do with you believing in the “moral amount” - that a certain amount of income and profit is ok… but too much and its immoral? (greg duncan private franchising CD) [There is no “moral amount”, there is a free market price. But the free market is with “teammates” and “business partners”, so it is reasonable to know the level of profit being realized, particularly since the current levels are FAR above what Quixtar profits are, and we show the Quixtar profits to our prospects, which results in an incorrect description of the true business model and causes large tool expenditures. I have used an analogy of inviting you to help build my house, and we can share the profits when it is sold. I agree, then find out you are selling the hammers to me and the others for $400.]
Anthony Robbins and Steven Covey have marketing costs and do not claim to be our “teammates” and “business partners”.
As long as the tool profits are known, I have no issue with Platinums and above being the only ones getting paid. TIF tried to change the deal a few years ago and pay all IBO’s (why didn’t they just lower the prices?), but this would have been an illegal pyramid, because there aren’t any outside customers, so about 18 Diamonds quit or were terminated.
Show me some diamonds that don’t use tool and succeeded in the last 10 years. [I’m not against tools, I am FOR tools, I am also for tool profit transparency.]
Don’t be concerned, you’re on topic!
Think about it, what is the most important thing to know about a business? I suggest it is where the profits/losses are coming from. If the largest source of profit (for upline) and losses (for most IBO’s) are kept secret, is it a mystery the problems I showed on ibofb’s site occurred, or the business has a bad reputation? Think it through.
August 31st, 2007 at 9:12 pm
74 / tex
Tex did answer respectfully and intelligently about his “beef” (my word) with “massive” tool profit incomes
At http://www.iboblog.org/my_weblog/2007/08/former-iboai-di.html#comments we discuss views.
We both believe the books,cds,functions can HELP an ibo build a Q/A business. We just want it to be done honestly.
jt
August 31st, 2007 at 11:21 pm
As a former Profit sharing Direct ( what is now called Platinum , I believe) I’d like to comment on the “Tool Bonus”. #1. It does exist as an added Bonus/income when Platinum is achieved. I use the word “Achieved” because it is a level in the Business that isn’t handed to anyone or stumbled upon because someone’s Upline drives depth. I achieved and earned it. I can honestly say a lot of my motivation came through the very tapes and Books , in question. What’s sad…is I believe none of this would even be taking place if ALL parties involved were actually living and acting , on the very principles of Business( in general) interpersonal relationships and Personal Growth , honesty and Integrity the very Books in question teach the readers! Steven Covey( 7 Habits…)Napolian Hill- Think and Grow Rich, Norman Vincent peale- The power of Positive Thinking, these books propelled me forward in my Business, but more importantly, in my Personal Life from the time I read them (1990) to current. These pieces of Literature were not written by anyone in Amway or Quixtar. I could have purchased them at a local Book store. But why would I , when I believed in the whole basis that purchasing through MY own business would be the only logical thing to do. I was completely surprised when reaching the Platimum level, to learn I would recieve bonuses on Business materials, as well as products. I felt absolutely NO shame in finding that out or getting the bonuses because I truely believed in them, I was walking proof to myself. I simply kept promoting the very books/tapes I myself had been purchasing, and found to be crucial in my personal education and growth within. did i ever intimidate anyone in my downline to buy them? No! In fact, there were many times I told people not to purchase them if they thought they *had* to, that it would only be worthwhile if they wanted the info. they could get from them. If,in the last 5 years I haven’t been active, it has become twisted and poisoned and self serving, it hurts me deeply. I realize 95% of the Blogs are about the *issues*, TEAM vs. Alticor, the Atty’s, the class Action suits, the injunctions, the Board, and my Blog may sound so incredibly simple minded. However, I’m just reminded that there are times when the best thing to focus on, to get to the core of the issues….are the Basics.
Respectfully submitted,
A Life Achiever
September 1st, 2007 at 3:39 pm
TEX,
IBOFB did not DELETE ALL of your posts like freetheibo does.
TEX76 - you keep talking about “business partners” and “teamates” - be specific to what LOA/team is saying these terms.
in bww, ltd, gala, yager old tapes…. i honestly have never heard them use these terms.
what price should they be.
Tony Robbins has sold 40million of his “Personal Power” and “Get the Edge” and other programs like “Power to Influence” program. It is 24cds/10cds/10cds for each program. The prices are $200/$200/$300.
On average this means that each CD is about $15 each.
By the way, i am not complaining. I own every product Robbins has… have spend thousands of dollars on his cds programs. I have spend over $15,000 on the few seminars of his I went to at ages 18-22. This was only for me. I did not get rewarded for the many people I passionately referred to Tony Robbins Seminars or persuaded to do his Personal Power program.
I don’t complain. The VALUE was worth the money.
TEX - most ibos organizations charge $6-7 per cd. that is LOW. This is what Ministries charge for their cd. I own literally thousands of non-amway books and cds programs from ministries, personal development people, etc…. Its called a Library.
I have spent the least on Amway seminars and cds… I have been to 25 functions (got one next month) of 3+ days within BWW/LTD/Gala/TIF, etc… and my cost has YET to equal my first Tony Robbins Seminar.
IBO organizations need to raise their prices, not decrease.
Try listening to Larry Winters (funniest person i have ever heard in my life) on a $7 CD and tell me its not worth it. You can say that you (or whoever) are not worth the value in that cd…. but don’t say its not worth $7.
Quit comparing the tool prices to online garage sales.
Successful and Wealthy people buy first on value/quality, not on price.
My dad taught me this.
BROKE/POOR people love discounts.
example -
Go to a DISCOUNT grocery store and see what kind of people you find. Poor. The prices are cheaper, but its crap.
Now Go to Whole Foods Market or Central Market - you see less poor people there… b/c the organic produce and products have higher quality
It used to be that you could tell the property value of your home by how close the nearest Walmart is. The closer your home to Walmart, the broker you were…. now there are so many Walmarts…. but the rule still works.
go to the poor part of town and that is where you find discount store and Dollar storeus.
TEX - i don’t have the endurance and blogging longevity to keep up with you and others…. I will be gone very soon…..
September 1st, 2007 at 3:57 pm
Former PSDD #78,
That was a lot of words.
I don’t know what your opinion is on tool profits, however.
September 1st, 2007 at 5:27 pm
Former PSDD:
You are absolutely right on. Let me clarify THE thing that matters. Did IBO leaders deliberately mislead their organinzation until they were at least Platinum (or Direct I was there in those days too) OR IS IT TRUE THAT AMWAY/QUIXTAR GAGGED THEM WITH THREATS OF TERMINATION IF THEY DISCLOSED TO PROSPECTS AND NEW IBOS THE POTENTIAL FOR TOOL PROFITS? Maybe you can get an answer from the administrator, but so far he’s been asked twice that I know of and will not answer this question. But common sense dictates that if there was even more potential than shown in the marketing plan to recruit someone into your organization, why, on earth wouldn’t you do just that. And the idea that they believe they are doing something wrong offering profits from a system that apparently you and I achieved simialr results from is just lame. It’s like saying, “hey, we have a service that will improve the lives of everyone who chooses to take advantage of it, but if we’re going to run this service at a profit to continue to help ever more people, then it’s wrong to help them”.
makingadifference
September 3rd, 2007 at 3:27 am
Tex- I am not opposd in the least to profits being made on tools. Especially,like #81 stated, it’s not like they are outrageously priced! How much $ ispent 0n aMusic Cd, $12-17.00? I can understand why the Business Material Bonus isn’t in the plan actually. Most people getting in the business will most likely switch from Cheer to SA8, and from Crest to glister…product for product basically. Not all people are in the habit of reading books or listening to tapes or going to Functions to better themselves. Changing what you brush your teeth with is not a huge deal. Changing the way you think…can be! Tools were something people grew into as they grew in the Business. It’s absurd to think that “tools” would be exempt from Bonuses. Everything that is purchased has built in Bonuses. If you disagree, the next time you purchase a car, from a Dealership, try to get the same price the dealer actually payed the manufacturer for the vehicle. Also, tell the Realtor who sells your home you don’t intend to pay him a “bonus” for selling it. It’s really in the way you view things. For $140.00, price of a Function ticket, I got a Teaching Seminar with Zig Ziglar. For $1095.00 you too can take his Seminar in las vegas , Oct.25-26, 2007.
Ok..so much for logic. #81 said”OR IS IT TRUE THAT AMWAY/QUIXTAR GAGGED THEM WITH THREATS OF TERMINATION IF THEY DISCLOSED TO PROSPECTS AND NEW IBOS THE POTENTIAL FOR TOOL PROFITS? ” I agree, therein would be the Question of importance. Not whether tool bonus’ are right or wrong, but the deception , if any, forced upon IBO’s at certain levels to conceal information, or mislead thier downline. I for one, recall being told ” there are other bonuses that come into the picture at Higher Levels.” I didn’t feel mislead or decieved. I felt motivated to reach higher levels. What some view as misleading, I simply viewed as a challenge.
September 3rd, 2007 at 7:28 pm
Tex:
You don’t seem to be able to grasp you’re perceptions of the tool profits have been incomplete, and that it is Qs policies not that of the “kingpins” (a term first used in lawsuits of former IBOs who felt their upline had taken advantage of them), that causes the deceit. Some of Jthompson’s remarks are right on. The tools are a great value for anyone who listens to them at the prices they pay. Period. The tools have become the main source of profit in the business because the Amquix business model is broken. No one who has lasted long term has done it any other way. Period. The remaining board members are just as upset about corporate decisions as those who resigned (resigned first, terminated after). That is a fact, I’ve heard some of their comments personally.
Read Chuck Goetschels post. It is the complete story. I hope you’re flexible because your position is understandable with the info that was available untill now. But that info is available now.
September 4th, 2007 at 1:06 am
Former PSSD #82,
I’m not opposed to tool profits either, as long as there is honesty. I have been to many training sessions where it was mentioned we should value all of the free mentorship we receive, when in reality there was a lot of payment going on. Same with major functions, when the guest speakers were given a gift and told there was no way they could be repaid for their contribution, and they could have been anywhere in the world on some beach, but they “chose” to help our group. Didn’t hurt to get the five figure payment for speaking, did it? You don’t buy a music CD, let alone several, every week. Let’s say theoretically the corp did gag them from disclosing tool profits. Did the corp also force them not to lower prices, such that they wouldn’t be making much more on tools than Quixtar?
September 4th, 2007 at 12:56 pm
Several years ago, Brady and Woodward published a book called, “Leading a Consumer Rebellion.” This book was meant to be given to prospective IBOs after being shown the plan. There was a chapter in the book that described how one could make money from selling products AND from tool system profits.
Last year, that book had to be revised, per Quixtar. The chapter describing tool profits had to be removed, per Quixtar. In fact, this was the ONLY time Brady and Woodward were threatened with termination–if they refused to rewrite the book. They rewrote the book. I happen to have both copies.
As for Tex, I wish everyone would quit debating with him. He really does NOT want any answers. He just wants everyone to agree with him that Orrin Woodward is the whole reason Amway has a bad name. (Gee, Orrin is 40. Amway is 50. Was this started in utero?) Orrin is the big, bad liar man who ruined it for everyone forever. Now please, please, go away!!!
(P.S. Quixtar loves Tex because he is doing so much of their work for them. They too want to make everyone believe that Orrin is the reason everything is so bad. You know, before he got started, this business was PERFECT!)
September 4th, 2007 at 3:02 pm
Dude!
There are over 1000 ibo couples/singles that make over 50k Quixtar income. That is not broken to me. And with the new $60 million bonuses, this number will got to $70k
My LOS had direct fulfillment with Quixtar for products and direct fulfillment for tools with their LOS. This means that each ibo only has to buy tools/cds/functionTickets for their personal use. This means that there is a lot MORE PROFIT than in the old business.
The old business (directly speaking time period) was awesome and better than other opportunities in Amerca - now its incredible how good it is.
September 4th, 2007 at 3:10 pm
JThompson,
It seems to me that there is a meeting scheduled, just for you, at the Comedy Showcase. Just go right on up to the stage and start talking about any ole’ subject that you have no personal stake in… kinda like you do here and on every forum that has anything to do with IBOs or Quixtar. Maybe you could say a few things about the way aliens are mistreated when they visit earth or something.
September 4th, 2007 at 5:58 pm
SOMEBODY know how to find (BILL LEWIS)??
i want to be in his TEAM…….I DONT WANNA BE WITH QUIXTAR ANYMORE…………..MY FAMILY FIRST..WHO IS DRIVING QUIXTAR/AMWAY O WHATAEVER..THEY NEED LEADERSHIP…I MISS THE REAL AMWAY GUY’S THEY BUILD THIS COMP..NOT THE SON’S..GOOD BYE……
September 5th, 2007 at 9:56 am
87amazed,
i do have a stake. 1/2 of my primary life mentors are ibos. I became ibo in 2001. if you want to to why i am blogging… you can email me or call me… its personal. my email is on one of these blogs.
Orrin, Randy, Chris, etc… are not the only ibos who have positively and massively influenced the lives of millions of people (including the people who quit but went on to be leaders in other fields like Pastor Stanley in GA). i refuse to let a few ibos who want out of Quixtar try to speak for all ibos.
My “LOA” are more excited about Quixtar/Amway than ever before.
TEAM does not represent all ibos, only themselves…
September 5th, 2007 at 9:58 am
TOOL PROFITS
I agree with Tex - the tool/training systems run by ibos are extremely valuable. The “teams” are what can make this business great. I believe they should receive ample profit. I believe things should be run honestly. I probably disagree with the specifics of Tex arguments….
September 6th, 2007 at 1:52 am
#89 jthompson said,”Orrin, Randy, Chris, etc… are not the only ibos who have positively and massively influenced the lives of millions of people…TEAM does not represent all ibos.”
Yeah.
What he said!
September 6th, 2007 at 3:42 pm
jthompson-
On post#17, you state you are not an ibo but yet in post#89, you state you have been an ibo since 2001? hmm…
September 6th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
#89 JThompson,
You have one thing right… the “TEAM” is only about 40% of the IBOs , according to quixtar; what you are missing is the FACT that the leaders of the TEAM do represent ALL IBOs as they were ELECTED TO DO. The fact the the IBOAI had its
teeth kicked out” by quixtar is why they are taking the actions needed for the benefit of all IBOs.
Perhaps it is because you didn’t get to vote for IBOAI board members that you seem to miss that; only active Platinum IBOs get a vote.
September 7th, 2007 at 3:58 am
Tex…yes, people do spend $ on music cd’s every week, or hwatever thier hobby/passion happens to be. sheesh..some spend $20-30 on Starbucks! Seriously now…step outside all the arguments on this blog and use some common sense. We spend money on whatever it is that will give us our need for instant gradification..whether it be music, coffee ..whatever! As for being told “you’ll get free mentoring” , I translated that to mean I wasn’t going to be billed an hourly rate to sit with my Upline Diamonds( which I did on many occasions) and go over my business strategy and get the input and advice from them. That free advice was priceless, and came from a source that was where I wanted to be in the Business world. As far as speakers being paid to address IBO’s at a major function, of course they were! Again, it’s obsurd to think they wouldn’t be. This is a business….to make money…you spend money. HOWEVER..please don’t Generalize and make it sound like all IBO’s are getting the major shaft and run around. There are so many amazing compassionate ,concerned and decent people in this Business, who truely DO build lasting friendships/mentorships that will last a lifetime…in or out of this Business. I truely hope , at some point in your Amway/Quixtar experience, you get a personal look at what I am talking about. all this blogging tends to bring out only negative, and folks, there’s an up and downside in every corporation. It’s how it is dealt with and how it moves forward with the best interest of ALL in mind. For the record too, as stated in my nmae, I am a Former Profit sharing direct ( Platinum) . There’s no blame to put on my Upline, downline,crossline, amway, quixtar , tool bonuses or anything else. My life circumstances, were the basis for my decision to move in another direction. I took with me priceless insight into Life, relationships, business and personal growth. Just the other evening, My daughter, now 20, said ” Ya know…I think listening to all those Amway tapes really helped shape my attitude towards life and the importance of having goals and sticking to them, and not letting situations or other people steal your dreams or shape who you are.” She was 2 years old when “those amway tapes” started being bought and listened to by me. Am I glad I spent the $5.00/ week? HECK YAH! The fight should be that those “Tools” never be taken for granted or banished, and that Justice, in the grander scheme of things, Prevails around this issue for all IBO’s and future generations of IBO’s.
” Listen to the Mustn’s, child,
Listen to the DON’TS,
Listen to the SHOULDN’TS, the IMPOSSIBLES, the WON’TS,
Listen to the NEVER HAVES,
Then Listen close to me-
Anything can happen child,
ANYTHING can be.”
~ Shel Silverstein- 1930-1999~
September 7th, 2007 at 1:27 pm
92/tc - read it again - it says i BECAME an ibo in 2001.
but thanks for pointing out any conflicting statements…
September 7th, 2007 at 8:10 pm
What is Team?
Each of us are called upon to be leaders at different times in our lives, whether at home, at church, in our communities, at work, or in a business. The TEAM is a leadership development service provider (LDSP) designed to help individuals learn leadership principles, grow in their personal leadership abilities, and develop other leaders. The TEAM is not affiliated with any particular company, business, opportunity or enterprise
September 7th, 2007 at 9:31 pm
Well, mex, that’s the problem.
TEAM IS affiliated w/Quixtar. However, instead of selling business support materials to support their Quixtar business they’re peddling something completely different.
September 9th, 2007 at 2:58 am
jthompson #90,
Which part of my specifics do you disagree with?
former PSDD #94,
Only a very small percentage of people spend money on music CD’s and Starbucks, so that argument is invalid.
As usual, you only look at yourself and your own situation. How about the several dozen IBO’s in your group who bought the tools, would they have the same glowing opinions as you do? I doubt it. Very much.
September 9th, 2007 at 4:43 am
NOT ANYMORE…GIRLPOWER CHECK THE RULES OR CALL THEM TO TELL YOU THE TRUE ABOUT NEXT 18 MONTHS CHANGES…GOOD LUCK..BUT Q.AMWAY IT’S NOT A BUSINESS FOR OUR KIDS….
PROUD TO BE TEAM.
September 9th, 2007 at 9:22 pm
Administrator: Why have you not addressed the price issue?
What is the % this supposed to be sold for Amway to stay legal? Is is 10%? Do you really only sell 3.4%?
WHY WON’T YOU ADDRESS THIS?
September 10th, 2007 at 11:56 am
100confused,
you are confusing b/c of the info spread at freetheibo site.
If you are seriously interested in possible building a Quixtar business still… then… if i were in your shoes, I’d persist in contacting iboai and Quixtar until i could set up a meeting (maybe by phone or in michigan) to get your questions answered.
1-800-253-6500 and ask for Business Rules dept….. unless moderator has a better answer.
September 10th, 2007 at 9:20 pm
mex #99,
Many of us aren’t afraid of the Amway name. PROUD TO BE AMWAY.
confused #100,
What price issue? There is no price issue, except in your imagination. No, YOU only sell 3.4%, and can thank your upline for not emphasizing it enough. There is no percentage for Amway to stay legal, there is a minimum amount each IBO is supposed to sell. Ever read the rules, there’s a lot of good inormation there. WHY WON’T YOU READ THE RULES?
September 10th, 2007 at 11:34 pm
#99 mex:
Not only do your posts make no sense whatsoever, but you’re also completely mistaken.
Gotta love people who take someone elses’s word as the gospel, but don’t bother to do research themselves.
Good luck, TEAM. (And congrats on finding the most gullible people ever to be your followers.)
September 13th, 2007 at 4:42 pm
Tex-
The issue isn’t if BSM’s are of value. It’s IF the distribution of Tool bonuses is fair and upfront.
As far as my comment about music cd’s and starbucks…it IS valid. Using music and starbucks as examples, was merely a representation of $ spent on things that have nothing to do with self improvement or motivation. I read the books, listened to the tapes and gained insight and knowledge. I wasn’t forced, and niether was anyone in my downline. What they chose to do with thier BSM’s was strictly up to them, as it was to me.
Unfortunately, your comments make you sound like a bitter and judgemental (if not disgruntled) IBO , who thinks your upline is responsible for your success or failure.
September 18th, 2007 at 6:33 pm
good luck anyway,,,,you only have 18 months to see all the true,,,,,,i hope you find any mary kay,shaklee,royal prestige to keep selling to live
September 20th, 2007 at 2:11 pm
PSDD #104,
The issue IS if BSM’s are of value, including how much profit is made. If there is massive profit from tools and they don’t share this information with their “teammates” and “business partners”, we have a problem.
Both Ron Simmons and Chuck Goetschel have stated Quixtar told them not to disclose tool proits, the IBOAI has denied this, and Quixtar won’t answer the question.
Of course nobody is “forced” to buy the tools, but they ARE told they won’t succeed without them. I doubt they joined to fail, right?
My comments are factual. Facts are neither bitter nor judgmental. My upline is responsible for lying to me about the level of tool profits (via silence) and being too cowardly to admit it.
October 3rd, 2007 at 3:50 pm
peoples emotions are at stake here.
October 4th, 2007 at 2:58 pm
kvs #107,
So are their wallets.