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Alticor Media Blog is the official news weblog from the Alticor family of companies.
August 24th, 2007 @ 12:22 pm ET…
Order, from the court
You can post a comment or trackback from your own site.
Quixtar and our IBOs won in court today.
Three times.
The court told Orrin Woodward and the other TEAM members that we terminated last week that they cannot ignore contracts.
The court told him that he could not help himself to confidential information from our company and the trade organization that has suspended them.
The court told him that our rules matter.
The court did not find merit in Mr. Woodward’s arguments that rules do not apply to him. And obviously, we could not agree more.
We are happy to stand up for playing by the rules. We are happy to stand up for ethical business dealings. We are proud to stand up for every IBO in the world who believes in those things, too.
Filed by: Corporate Communications
Posted in: Alticor, Amway, Quixtar, Transformation
August 24th, 2007 at 12:45 pm
Not suprised.
August 24th, 2007 at 12:47 pm
Nice touch: “our IBOs”.
August 24th, 2007 at 12:56 pm
Dearest Amway/Quixtar,
Looking foward to receiving your next ultimatum email. Can’t wait to be told what to do AGAIN.
August 24th, 2007 at 1:00 pm
Suddenly the crowd of ibos need not look on anymore, just run…..run for your lives!!!!!
August 24th, 2007 at 1:02 pm
Wow. Quix you did a great thing for your Employees, er.. I mean Property.. doah, assets? Field Sales Agents? Oh what did you call us when I signed up..
*thinking*
*thinking*
Oh yeah, Independent Business Owner. Somehow I dont feel that I am. I have a job, and a boss. I do not need another.
/waiting to see how September 12 pans out.
August 24th, 2007 at 1:05 pm
well orrin only has millions upon millions of dollars after the 8 years of BS he put people through. Im sure hes going to fly to flordia and head out on his yacht and all the lone TEAM members are going to get screwed.
August 24th, 2007 at 1:11 pm
Slavery was outlawed sometime ago. It doesn’t matter if Quixtar/Amway wins a few battles in court. Their doors will close soon, so they will know no victory in the end.
August 24th, 2007 at 1:12 pm
We can still leave your Amway company right? I am not the property of you!!! This is just a little bump in the road and we will overcome this. Orrin will not let us down. I know it.
August 24th, 2007 at 1:20 pm
Thank you for keeping the tone of this posting civil and respectful, even when you could crow about three back-to-back wins in court, and your earlier sense of anger at betrayal by the tone and false claims in the original “Complaint” filed in California.
Interesting that the Court one of the above rulings noted the explicit connection between Quixtar’s concerns over aspects of TEAM’s training methods and the significant liability for all IBOs and Quixtar pending from Federal regulator agencies which ensue if Quixtar did not act. This is part of the basis of the Complaint against Quixtar in the UK — that they had the ability to correct wrong training methods and didn’t act there as quickly as they perhaps should have.
ALTICOR/QUIXTAR, thank you for acting responsibly!!!
August 24th, 2007 at 1:33 pm
I’m calling on all of my other TEAM-mates to join my family in writing all of the Partner Stores and letting them know of your intention of boycotting their businesses until they drop any and all links they have with Q.
See you all on the other side of the fence, where the grass is greener…
August 24th, 2007 at 1:36 pm
“Oh yeah, Independent Business Owner. Somehow I dont feel that I am. I have a job, and a boss. I do not need another.”
You signed a CONTRACT with Quixtar, as a distributor. Not unlike CONTRACTS other distribution companies sign with their suppliers.
If you didn’t agree with the terms, then why did you sign it?
August 24th, 2007 at 1:40 pm
To MLM nightmare:
The TEAM members are getting ’screwed’ by Amway, not Orrin. What we signed up for is not what the business plan is anymore. Our leaders had enough guts to stand up against the nightmarish changes.
Instructions for the rest:
1. Hurry up and get your case discounts on LOC, SA8, and Double X before it’s too late.
2. Buy some shelves for you basement and garage.
3. Place your discounted Amway inventory on the shelves
4. Start Selling!!
As a bonus you can get training up by Rich DeVos on YouTube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCYWAKJ256w
August 24th, 2007 at 1:43 pm
Thank You Alticor for the civil post.
Yes, rules and contracts do matter.
Thank You for protecting the “systems” that do play by the rules.
August 24th, 2007 at 1:44 pm
I’m not an IBO, but this situation is no different than the banking industry or any other industry that has competition. I’m sure Mary Kay, Avon and other large MLM organizations would have done the same to protect their organization as well.
If you are a lender at a bank, you sign a non-compete agreement that keeps you from having contact with your customers for at least a year. Why is that? Well, because the bank you left doesn’t want to loose the business of those customer because of your client/lender relationship.
I know Quixtar/Alticor to be reputable organization. They just happen to have an industry that deal with “PEOPLE” in far bigger way than other legitamate companies like Walmart, Meijer, Steelcase and etc. Because of the nature of this buisness, they are always going to encounter people who want to take an opportunity that backed by business rules and ethics and twist it to their advantage like Orin Woodward did.
He made money not by retailing, but by duping half of you dummies into spening more money or tapes and what not than what you should have been making by selling the products. If you are a member of TEAM, wake up. Do you think Orin is going to really reach back to all of his TEAM members, NOT!
He’s going to continue to pursure a lawsuit for his to save his own but b/c in the end he doesn’t even know most of you. He know’s himself, his family and his own financial situation. This is called the TRUTH, something that some of you can’t handle.
Way to go Quixtar/Alticor. Actions speak louder than words and your proved that you are not going to allow “people” to run their business unethically as long as their associated with Quixtar/Alticor.
August 24th, 2007 at 1:50 pm
I am actually in the middle of writing this don’t know how many people out the are thinking the same way I am but 6 months isn’t that long in the skeem of things. Good luck with the new name.
Dear Quixtar/Amway,
Please be advised that as of today August 24, 2007 I am issuing my resignation as a Quixtar IBO.
First with the announcement of the pending name change to Amway corp. I will not be affiliated with a company whose name breeds anger and distrust. In my experience there when presenting the Quixtar business to a prospect eighty percent of their first comments were, “if it has anything to do with Amway don’t even talk to me.”
I personally don’t have any confidence in the Amway name and would not have become an IBO if the name of the distribution company were Amway. At least with the name Quixtar I could distance myself from the name Amway as a sister company.
Product and price at first glance need to be recognized as competitive. Except for a few products such as XS Energy Drinks the prices are not seen from the common level as price competitive. Put your products on the shelves next to competitive product in the average store and see what the percent of purchase would be with the existing prices.
August 24th, 2007 at 1:51 pm
Yes, the TEAM “system” is a scam.
And to dave no one buys LOC, SA8 or double X that isnt involved with quixtar. Its low quality products at the same price (Or more) as the rest.
August 24th, 2007 at 1:55 pm
WOW…it’s amazing to read these posts by Team IBOs. If anyone misled you, it was Orrin. You’ve come to believe everything he says and now it’s coming back to haunt you. Be careful who you listen to and who you “follow”.
Blue suit, red tie…sounds like a cult organization to me.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:08 pm
It’s a good day for all IBOs and Systems that play by the rules.
There’s a lot of hollering from team IBOs here, but I suppose that’s to be expected. Thanks for posting the good news!
August 24th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
It is over! That sure was Quick!
IBOS will be just fine. At my last two opens, we are saying the Amway name and are #’s are phenomenal.
TEAM vs. Quixtar - was not a negative at all. Now IBOS building a business in partnership with Amway/Quixtar ought to have massively increased belief in the stability of their partner/supplier.
freetheibo forum deleted bloggers that did not agree with the message they were trying to get their ibos to believe in.
TEAM ibos - get mad… but after you express yourself, you have two choices.
1. You can start more stupid anti-amway websites and become another disgruntled ibo that makes no real difference with the rest of their lives
OR
2. You can stay with Quixtar (and allign with a team that is just as successful, but without breaking Q rules) or seek another opportunity/path… set goals, keep dreaming, LEARN from this experience, and be better, smarter, and stronger in the future.
jthompson
August 24th, 2007 at 2:09 pm
Response to post #10. I was waiting for something like this to come from a TEAM member. A boycott…. nice (sarcasm by the way to those on the system). It seems to me that the trashing of this “tyrannical” corporation has become a pasttime to you all, and yet you still register IBO’s into Quixtar (an illegal pyramid to you). MAKE UP YOUR MINDS if that is possible since you have been systemitized and cannot form an intelligent opinion of your own. I was told that the grass is greener over a septic tank. Sounds like your downline may be in a world of ________.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
11#
When I signed on, I was free to build my business how I wish, attend any instructional or motivational seminar, read any book that I “thought” (yes I’m still allowed to do that) I could. AND recommend that to my downline. In the new QBOB it says that I am still allowed, yeah right.
If Michael Dell wants to do another seminar on E-Commerce, do I need to contact the corp for permission? That does not sound like freedom to me.
Secondly, I overheard a Quixtar IBO open meeting last night, and I quote “You dont need to sell anything, you consume or use products from your own busines and teach others to do the same.”
How is that any different that what TEAM is being accused of? I nearly flipped out of my chair. That was in East Lansing last night, off US 127, you know who you are and where the place is.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:14 pm
Thanks Alticor.
An0801: well said.
MLM sucks: not even going to waste my time.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:17 pm
Everyone seems to be missing the point on the whole we signed a contract to Quixtar to follow their rules argument.
Yes, I did. And so far I do not believe I have broken any of those rules.
However come September 1st a lot of rules and methods of doing business are changing. I did not sign on for that. So yes I think that if the entire game is changing we should be given the option to continue or not without restriction. And I do not believe it is correct or ethical to send out ultimatum e-mails causing us to pledge our allegiance in return for our annual bonuses being held ransom.
To those who wish to stay on and change to the new way of doing business, I wish you luck. I do however wish that you had all of the details before making that decision, but full disclosure of those details is part of the legal maneuvering going on. To those who wish to leave and pursue income in another venture, I wish you luck as well. Hopefully a jury of our peers will see through to allow us to do just that.
And to those on both sides of the fence please have the wisdom to cut through the slander and school-yard talk that occurs on this and other blogs and see the facts so you can make an informed decision whatever that may be.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:20 pm
cult,
Is McDonalds a cult because they wear the same looking uniform that helps them put forth a positive professional look.
how many times would you go back to a doctor if he walked in to do an examination with holes in his\her jeans and stains on his t-shirt.
A professional uniform is all it is.
Dictionary.com says a cult is:
1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3. the object of such devotion.
4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5. Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
6. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
7. the members of such a religion or sect.
8. any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:21 pm
Well this is not a VICTORY! It is a big lose for Q/A… All you Q/A supporters What happens when you HIT a bee hive with a stick(this judge is a judge working in Q country) Billllllion $ Q/a Country. Come on this is a sad state of afairs did you expect any fair play. NO this is about $ and BIG $ at that. Get your eyes open the real battle is in FED court in CA on the 12-13th of Sept. Read CA. law on Non-Compete… Google it (California law on Non compete) This is the real DEAL FOLKS.
Labor law clearly states even if a company does not want you to compete with them they can have you sign something but can NOT prevent anyone from earning a living as the see fit! IBO’s On TEAM i’m not one of you but you will see you will have your day in court and as I live in CA and have been witness to MLM’s Trying to enforce this here and no Chance!!
Stay together TEAM
Your future is bright!
August 24th, 2007 at 2:22 pm
This gets more comical every day.
“We are happy to stand up for playing by the rules. We are happy to stand up for ethical business dealings. We are proud to stand up for every IBO in the world who believes in those things, too.”
The corporation has known the rules weren’t being followed for many years and have done nothing. They have known about tool abuses for years and done nothing. The high level pins have known about the abuses and profited from them also for years at the expense of the lower level IBOs.
There is no playing by the rules or ethical behavior in any of this.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
As someone who was approcahed by Amway several years ago and didn’t sign up for it, it appears to me that things never change. I was recently approached to join the TEAM. All I can say is the spin that is used has not changed to attempt to get you to sign up. (e.g. I am in business and would like to have someone come talk to you about it, but I can’t answer any questions right now that you may have)
This court case seems to have 8 sides to its story instead of the usual 3 or 4 we are all used to.
That being said, I have no interest in touching either entity with a 10 foot pole or a 50ft one for that matter. It seems like all these organizations do is tell everyone to “obey” upline instead of allowing the individual thought process to take place.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
Contract law must be upheld, and TEAM leaders should keep their contracts.
Likewise, if TEAM leaders are so virtuous, they shouldn’t have revealed confidential and privileged information through their lawsuit and blog. True leaders wouldn’t do that, but con men would.
Also, Quixtar is taking real quantifiable action to improve the business for ALL pin levels. Quixtar is far from perfect, but they are moving in the right direction, unlike former TEAM leaders.
And lastly, to TEAM leaders: if you do the crime, you better be willing to do the time (6 months in this case).
August 24th, 2007 at 2:34 pm
#20 i actually agree.
Not all TEAM ibos are like this so their boycott would fail miserably.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
If you talk to Leaders within other IBO organizations who are just as big as TEAM was, they are not suprised that TEAM Leaders got thrown out of Quixtar.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:37 pm
>>> Craig says: If you didn’t agree with the terms, then why did you sign it?
August 24th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
I am so pleased to have some official notification on the court proceedings. Our systems our critical to building our businesses, but none of us should be violating the rules of conduct, that we all agreed to. Yes rules change over time, but the prinicples we build our business on do not. TEAM members, don’t give up on your dreams, but you must learn new ways to build. Our team did a lot of depth building recently as well and it has not proven to be very profitable…the old one leg issue. Time to change, again…
thanks quixtar/amway, I am proud to show our business plan and focus on my future.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
What I hate to see is decisions that can impact a family for decades being made based on the cult-like loyalty to Orrin Woodward. I have heard several different people suggest that TEAM likes to say something along the lines of “discrimination is the enemy of duplication”. We are not talking about racial or sexual discrimination, but rather independent thinking, or the ability to discriminate against bad ideas. In other words following someone to the point where your personal judgment and clear thinking are clouded. That is a scary position to place yourself and your family in.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
The problem with people in the TEAM is they are told not to think for themselvs. They teach that you should only listen to those that have success and mimic them. This leads to a cult like group of zombies that can neither think for themselfs or even form a valid opinion. I feel sorry for all of those team members brainwashed. You got screwed, accept it. Also I couldnt be happier that “system” was considred illegal. Its 175$ a month for a bunch of BS that you have already heard before. I spent a month on that and came to my senses, you should too.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:46 pm
To post #20, that must be one heck of a leak in your septic tank if your grass gets greener over it… I’d have that checked if I was you, your most likely breathing in the fumes if your believing the bull that Alticor is throwing at you.
August 24th, 2007 at 2:49 pm
Money Talks and many big corporations such as Amway have enough money to buy off even the Judges. Why do you think Quixtar filed their restraining order in Michigan and Orin filed his lawsuit in California? They probably send bonus checks to the local Judge and eat lunch with him on a regular basis. What was proved in court today was that good doesn’t always prevail over evil. So now you have to decide for yourself. Evil -vs- Good. Goats -vs- Sheep. Amway -vs- Team Wish side do you plan to be on? I quess we will all find out in six months how many stay and how many leave?
August 24th, 2007 at 3:11 pm
Time for Orrin and his crew to go and get jobs again!
August 24th, 2007 at 3:18 pm
THE TEAM STANDS UNITED!!!
This will all end soon, and TEAM will come out on top. What Quixtar fails to understand is that the TEAM is not like their corporate structure. Each of us are leaders, right down to the 1000 pin. Either join us, or watch…
THE CONSUMER REBELLION!!!!!!!!!!
August 24th, 2007 at 3:21 pm
I’m sure Kresge Corporation had some SHORT-TERM victories as they tried to compete against what Sam Walton…
Let’s see where things are when TEAM reaches 1 Million Independent Business Owners.
August 24th, 2007 at 3:22 pm
When the majority of an organization (outside of a job where you have the freedom to choose your clothes) wears the same outfit (blue suit & red tie)…that gives the impression of cult to me.
I’m all for professional dress…but take a step back and look at yourselves.
August 24th, 2007 at 3:41 pm
tO # 33 ( “discrimination is the enemy of duplication”)the correct term is “DISCRETION is the enemy of duplication”
Did anyone else notice that Q DID get ruled against in states OTHER than “Q country ” ?
wonder what will happen in a “free thinking ”
( since that is so encouraged by all teams other than TEAM ) state like California, where the non compete laws are a bit different ?
personally, I know from having owned retail businesses for almost 20 years, that a non compete is completely unenforcable in the great state of Arkansas…we don’t even have a right to work law..unions have never made any inroads here…everywhere is NOT “Q country ”
and that is irregardless of WHAT kind of contract you signed…a no compete is a joke here
August 24th, 2007 at 3:46 pm
It is obviuos many of the comments above were made by folks who did not read any of the litigation. Just like the “aura” we’ve been fighting for years, people throw their uneducated opinions out left and right. Perhaps a good read of the “facts” prior to spouting. Even sounds like a few folks may be showing jealousy. Even if Orrin and Team leadership never get anywhere with this, something good is destined to come of it. The “confidential” and etc info that Q/A is upset about is the TRUTH that there is piles of money in the tool “system” side of the business. Q/A is totally against anyone generating income there except the big pins. Doesn’t that bother any of you? As soon as someone huge decides to start sharing the wealth, they’re axed. I wonder why? Why is having a transparent system wrong? Only the system organizations that hide that information from their groups are allowed to operate?
Doesn’t it bother anyone that these same leaders were representing IBO’s on the IBOAI board for years and years. Communicating with Q/A regularly. The very board that is suppose to represent you all to the corp. Your voices to be heard.
My organization spent considerable time “waiting” for approval from Q/A to begin using TEAM meetings, tools etc to build our business. 5 weeks after being allowed to begin, our leadership is axed. Why did they waste their and our time approving our move. Why not the suggestion that we maybe don’t move. Is there a faster way to stop momentum, and destroy belief than that?
Perhaps a good read of the new Q/A rules and operational changes too. I bet alot of IBO’s will be very surprised to actually see the details of the new changes.
Or not, maybe just keep blogging your uneducated opinions and furthering the clouded stigma that surrounds our industry.
Ridiculous
August 24th, 2007 at 3:47 pm
# 36
Goats Vs. Sheep ?
when was that ever an epic struggle?
August 24th, 2007 at 3:48 pm
Post #35
Where was it written that I believed everything that Alticor said? You said the grass was greener on the side of the fence where you are going, by the way. Is it part of your systematic approach (CD’s et al for those of you on the system) to everyone that questions what the TEAM does negatively by just trashing them? If you are still an IBO are you planning to send your checks from Quixtar back…starting next month? I doubt that very seriously. Please answer me this ……why does your Organization keep registering IBO’s in what you and your leaders call an “illegal pyramid”? Rather simple questions, don’t you think? Oh my God, I just asked “dont you think” to a TEAM member buried in the system…wait until I tell that to my business partners. aaahahahahahahahaha.
August 24th, 2007 at 3:48 pm
Give me a break Max. The dress attire is simply the advice from leadership books long before quixtar advising the most relatable look.
In a cult, people do what they’re told. If you have a group, you know that aint happening. hehe
August 24th, 2007 at 3:55 pm
Interesting discussion on non-compete/non-raiding laws in California. Explains why TEAM quickly ran to California with their lawsuit. Looks to me TEAM doesn’t have a chance, even in Arnold Country:
http://www.andersenalumni.net/%5CCalifornia%20Non-Compete%20Agreements.pdf
August 24th, 2007 at 4:06 pm
This will definitely have an impact on the pending class-action filed in California. The judge in this case even said in one of the judgments that he based his decision partly on the merits of whether or not the class action will go TEAM’s way.
TEAM is no longer able to sell their support materials and their leadership is gone, I’d say TEAM is no more. But what about all the other training organizations using the Quixtar business? Are they going to be forced out as well?
August 24th, 2007 at 4:15 pm
Max #40:
The blue suit, white shirt, and red tie idea came from a book called Presentations Plus. This is one of the top presentations and persuasion books out there. Inside that book is a study done on dress and it was found that the blue suit, white shirt, and red tie combination was the most relatable.
My simple questions to all of the IBOs that are not affiliated with TEAM:
1. Why would someone that the company supported and actually endorsed all of the sudden be terminated?
2. Don’t you think the “Jay Factor” is a bad thing? Why are you against the guys that are trying to get that changed?
3. If you don’t think that TEAM’s style of building was good, why has it been leading the pack for the last 7 or 8 years?
4. Why would other HUGE leaders in the business resign along side Woodward and Brady if there wasn’t a problem?
5. How come IBOs keep stating that they have no problem retailing their products when facts show that only 3-4% of sales are to customers?
These recent lawsuits are only the beginning. The big lawsuit begins on the 12th of September. Quixtar is going to have a hard time winning this one. At the very least, TEAM will be allowed out of the non-compete clause. This is all we need.
August 24th, 2007 at 4:19 pm
Tex #46:
How do you come to the conclusion that TEAM doesn’t even have a chance out there? Any warrants to your claims?
August 24th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
This just reinforces, yet AGAIN, why I will have nothing to do with Quixtar/Alticor/Amway/TEAM ever again. It took 13 yrs for Orrin to finally make the decision that he was unhappy with the way Quixtar set things up, and yet it also took Quixtar 13 yrs to “figure out” that Orrin was not “following the rules.”
I ASK YOU: how much $money$ did Orrin & Quixtar make during their 13 yr long passionate love affair??? And now that the relationship is over, the IBOs have to choose sides like children in a divorce. NO THANKS.
August 24th, 2007 at 4:36 pm
Clint,
1. Because they broke the rules. When Quixtar found out, they offered to help them get back on track. TEAM refused. TEAM was terminated.
2. The “J Factor” is the simple markup any product distribution model has, nothing unique to A/Q.
3. It’s easy to lead the pack when you’re breaking the rules. Just ask Enron, for example.
4. Because they are all part of TEAM. And not very smart, just like the TEAM “leadership”.
5. Because most tool systems, including TEAM, spend so much time on the system in order to make the big bucks, there isn’t enough time left to conduct retail efforts. Assuming the tools tools are priced properly (which isn’t true, they are too high), this is the way to maximize profit for the upline. The retail becomes “collateral damage”.
Don’t count on it. Read the pdf in #46, above. Even if TEAM wins, Quixtar will appeal to the Federal level, and it would probably be overturned/reversed. 5.
August 24th, 2007 at 4:37 pm
#25 You are right, what out come did we expect in a Michigan Court. That’s like a Baptist being held for trial in Vatican City…Hello, we will have to wait for the Federal Court hearing.
August 24th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
How can the Team & Associates call Quixtar/Amway an illegal pyramid after many years of getting substantial incomes from them. I find this troublesome.
August 24th, 2007 at 4:57 pm
Just because terminating someones Independent business cause they don’t renounce Team is legal doesn’t make it ethical or good for business.
Months before all this Jim Payne was shown Team approach and had no problem with any of it.
This is one battle of a war. And Quixtar/Alticor has much more to lose than anyone, because of that and the very good chance of losing in CA, expect them to be making as big a deal out of this as possible, which is exactly what they are doing.
And lastly Woodward, Brady and the rest of them resigned their Business because they didn’t believe in the direction the company was going. They are “fired” IBO’s for bad business practices. They didn’t get thrown off the boat, they jumped off.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:04 pm
Hello Bob? This is Jake, I wanted to come over and talk to you about my Amway business. CLICK. Bob? Bob? … are you there?
August 24th, 2007 at 5:14 pm
Clint #49,
I read parts of the document I provided and came to the conclusion they picked the only state they have a chance, but it is still very slim. Have you read it?
BillyB,
They claim Quixtar’s prices gradually became too high. They will have to prove this in court.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:15 pm
Victory against deception, halleujah!
August 24th, 2007 at 5:18 pm
Example of LACK of personal integrity by Woodward
“The agreement entered into was written and signed by each of the defendants. It specifically required that defendants “keep in confidence all Confidential Information” to which they gained knowledge and also required them to agree “not to make any use whatsoever of Confidential Information except for the purpose specified” therein.”
His own forum defined integrity…. when you give your word and then break it, that is not integrity.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:27 pm
Tex #51
1. Quixtar has known about how TEAM operates since the beginning. They only terminated them after Orrin and Chris went to them wanting them to change their prices or they were out.
2. It is a unique markup in that it happens before the wholesale cost and goes directly to one family. Markup of that percentage usually happens when retailed…not before it’s supposed to be retailed.
3. Enron is a terrible analogy to use in this case. If you look at many of the rules, what TEAM did (use their own BSMs which were approved by quixtar), it is specifically allowed in the rules of conduct.
4. They are not all apart of TEAM. Some of them have been in the business since the 70s…way before TEAM. Legacy and 5K just recently joined with TEAM because it is doing the best out of all of the quixtar businesses.
5. Be careful what you say here. Using alticor’s claims that TEAM only represents 15%, it cannot possibly be because of team that the other 85% can’t retail.
I guess we’ll see in the next year or two how the class action suit pans out.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:27 pm
Looks like the big bad Alticor is scared again…
August 24th, 2007 at 5:53 pm
This claim that total “retail” (ie. non-IBO sales) is only 3.4% is intriguing. From another post, this 3.4% is based on registered online Customers. However, most of the Customer sales I make are directly to a customer, out of the stock I’ve ordered to myself as part of my monthly order. I wonder how many others do that — directly service a few customers, and this is not counted in the purported number for retail sales.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:56 pm
Tex, thanks for digging up the reference at #46.
August 24th, 2007 at 5:59 pm
to Kristin (#50)
You are right, it doesn’t make sense it would take Orrin 13 years to figure out he didn’t like it. Because that’s not the case. What makes sense is that when began building, the business was different, and over the last 13 years changed into something he no longer wants to be part of. And it doesn’t make sense that Amway/Quixtar would take 13 years to figure out he was breaking the rules, because he wasn’t. Quixtar is taking the position it is because they are being sued. Read Chuck Goetshel’s post. Read the complaint filed in CA.
August 24th, 2007 at 6:09 pm
C’mon Tex. TEAM broke no rules. TEAM does not stack. I am on TEAM. So I know. Q LIED!!!!! How do I know that they lied? Because they lied about ME! And then they somehow believe that I am stupid enough to think that they can help to “re-educate” me to overcome illegal proceedures that they, and I, know that I haven’t been taught in the first place. Q knows that they lied. I know that they lied. But it doesn’t matter what Q and I know…all the world’s a stage and it only matters what the world thinks. Q knows that the truth is just a formality. Otherwise they would not have offered to help me overcome something that I know didn’t happen in the first place.
The bottom line is this, Tex:
You no longer have a say in Q. The board no longer represents you and the company can (and now has) “change the deal” with out reguard to IBO’s.
August 24th, 2007 at 6:26 pm
It sounds like a spoiled child to denounce the character of a judge (must be in Amway’s pocket) because he didn’t rule your way. I’m sure there are many people that would defend his integrity and character just like many of you broadcast Orrin’s integrity. His reputation is also his livelihood.
The judicial system isn’t impartial only when it rules in your favor. A child doesn’t like it when a parent ‘rules’ for the sibling in an argument either but must accept their authority. It is not useful in our society to denounce the judicial system or one particular judge because a ruling is not in our favor. It might be expected to cry foul but it is not useful.
I would bet the contracts were very clear and the majority of us never read them or understood their impact on our business. The Merchants of Deception is a very interesting read. With the technology available why does it cost $6 for a tape/cd when an mp3 file could be distributed almost for free? Just wondering?
August 24th, 2007 at 6:38 pm
Where are the official Q/A new rules and regs. that people keep referring to? I have been all through the Q site and have not found anything that would let existing IBOs know what these new changes will be. Can someone please enlighten me? Thank you.
August 24th, 2007 at 6:46 pm
I am concerned for all IBO’s!! Quixtar boldly claimed IBO’s are property of Quixtar!! They will determine what I read and listen to! This company has gone off its rocker! I will continue to listen to what I want to listen to! I will continue to read what I want to read! and I will continue to talk with whomever I choose!! No company is going to take away my rights given to me by the constitution!
August 24th, 2007 at 6:50 pm
Hey Jake i would hang up on you too,i’d hang up on you if you offered me Microsoft stock at $1.00 a share.I’d hang up on YOU.
August 24th, 2007 at 7:10 pm
Tex(Ext)and others -
I appreciate all of your passionate comments, I really do as this is what makes our country great - the ability to have civil discourse. However before you loose credibility by walking too far on the ledge let’s go back and look at the facts.
1. The retention rate for first year IBOs is less than 25% - if prices were good and money was great then why is this the case? 75% percent of the people, after being registered by their friend or family quit. These are just facts - indisputable facts, the percentages came from the company to me personally on several occasions. One such occasion was a personal meeting that Don Wilson and I had with Doug DeVos and Ken McDonald in the summer of 2005.
2. Orrin and Chris were prohibited today from raiding the Company’s los to solicit for another business and to not disparage the company. As far as I know I have not seen them do either since their meeting with Company on August 9th (in which they were respectful gentlemen)so asking them to stay the same is the way I see it. If any of you have seen specific examples of them disparaging the Company or raiding your los then please let us know.
3. The Company went to the court on August 10th claiming that Orrin and Chris had started a new MLM and the court must act immediately to stop them from damaging Quixtar. In the hearings this week the Company lawyers could not prove (because it was not true) that a new MLM had been started even though they had told the public and every IBO it had. Also Quixtar’s own rules state that a Training System Company is not considered a competing company (read the rules folks). So at the end of the day the court simply told Orrin and Chris to obey the rules, which they are already obeying.
4. At least 10 other Judges around the country have entered TRO’s AGAINST Quixtar in the last few days forbidding them from suspending or terminating IBOs which they threatened to do in emails sent out last week to thousands of IBOs. They wanted to suspend or terminate IBOs for just attending a meeting(are there any historical reminders here????). Quixtar can not suspend or terminate anyone for the reasons stated in their threatening emails. Why the judge in Grand Rapids did not do the same, no one knows, but judges make mistakes. Maybe if he knew the dispute resolution process, in this case at least, is not an unbiased process he would have ruled differently. Obviously by their own communications the IBOAI and Quixtar are collaborating on this issue and are obviously biased (simply meaning that they have an opinion already on the situation), yet they control the dispute resolution process.
5. Let’s don’t lose sight of the fact that started all of this. A group of very veteren and long term IBO leaders tried to work with the Company for an extended period of time to get the company to 1) lower prices 2) improve compensation plan “reachable” incomes and 3) bring in new products that could be easily sold by the new IBO and that the new IBO would want to buy for himself. The changes the Company announced this Summer signaled to these leaders, with OVER 150 years in combined IBO experience, that the Company was going in a different direction they felt was best. Even though these leaders disagreed and felt these changes would endanger the viability of the business they respected the Company’s right to do so and simply asked that they and others be allowed to move on to whatever the next phase of life had in store and to not be incumbered by inappropriate restraint of trade rules that should be suspended given the Company’s massive business transformation - which the Company have themselves called it a whole new Amway.
My question remains the same - If the new business is so good then why is anyone worried if current IBOs will stay or not?
Every IBO will make their own decision and even though we have evidently been called “property” by the company - we are not servants and the Company should be so confident in their new model that they would be proud to give people a choice. For many people I am sure they will choose to stay and if they feel that way they should. For others they just want to move on and not participate in the new deal.
What say you Doug?
6. Finally a technical correction - Tex - I think the lawsuit is already in federal court??? Again no damages have been requested, just the right to move on for those that wish.
August 24th, 2007 at 7:11 pm
suspensions for non-revoking of team?? The quixtarian inqusition has begun. Michigan courts……..another reason I hope The bucks stomp that team up north…..
August 24th, 2007 at 8:00 pm
Why has my post not been listed? It was sent sometime ago - before the latest post?
Thanks
Ron
August 24th, 2007 at 8:01 pm
I am sickened by all the garbage you people can say about Orrin Woodward, this man has integrity, character, he is a man of principle. (For a lot of you reading this you can reference websters dictionary for definitions of character, integrity, and principle, I understand most of you have never been taught these things). The amway business will never build in this state or country for that matter. Talk about wasting money, I can’t see why anyone would want to spend money to try and build an amway business, I would much rather invest my money in books, cds, and seminars to actually grow myself personally. Truthfully our culture as a whole could benefit from the TEAM trainings system, it would lessen the cynics out there and teach people to live on the higher side of life. Orrin Woodward and Chris Brady are champions for freedom, they have sacrificed and blazed the trail we can all follow. It is unfortunate all this time in quixtar I thought this company actually shared in the belief of free enterprise, and I thought they actually had character and integrity (again reference websters, or wictionary) but I admit I was duped not by Orrin Woodward but by Quixtar and the controlling families. To think I actually voted for Dick deVos, I am thankful that he didn’t win the election, I thought Granholm leaned toward socialism but based on quixtar’s recent actions I am starting to think amway and its esteemed owners and founders are the ones who are leaning toward socialism. If your business was so great you wouldn’t need to change the contract half way through the plan. Now it is amway who claims IBOs are their property. I know one thing as far as I can tell this country is still free for the time being and I will not be a slave to amway or anyone for that matter. All of you who throw stones at Orrin Woodward you might as well shoot spitballs on a battleship, because it will have the same effect. One last point, if Orrin was such an enemy of quixtar, soon to be amway, then how is it that you for all these years you have built him up, having him as the keynote speaker at quixtar live and other events. The sad thing is Orrin’s vision is to build the Wal-mart of the internet, and quixtar and all of its IBOs were part of that vision, but the short sightedness of the 2nd generation owners wouldn’t even hear him out, instead they had the brilliant idea to lower PV, raise prices, and change their name to amway. Good moves! I refuse to represent this business to anyone, and I find it hard to believe that any IBO in the field will have success building the amway business. To bad more people haven’t stood up and spoken out against amway and its benevolant dictators, but in time I think more and more will stand up and fight for their rights.
August 24th, 2007 at 8:29 pm
its amazing how full of **** this company is
August 24th, 2007 at 8:31 pm
Way to go Quixtar! We’re proud of you for standing up for ethical business practices and keeping a high level of integrity for the rest of us IBO’s that voluntarily AGREED to abide by the rules of conduct. We’re proud to be supported by a company with such high standards. Thank you thank you thank you.
August 24th, 2007 at 8:45 pm
Tex, et al,
The California class action suit was in Federal court, and is thus a Federal suit. The definition of an illegal “pyramid” business is based on federal law or regulation. And, as IBOs reside in more than one state, it was necessary for TEAM to file in California.
As to the applicability of the non-compete agreements noted in the “Lawzilla” link, that is California state law, and it remains to see how it applies to our Independent Contractor agreement.
Taking a look at the complaint point-by-point, I would say TEAM is on slim footing.
Quixtar products are not so high priced that they cannot be sold by persons properly trained in the features and benefits of the product, as well as general sales training. I have hundreds of retail customers who call me to reorder the products. Nutrilite XX, Amway and eSpring water filter replacements, SA8 products, Artistry products, and LOC and other household cleaning products. When I say hundreds, I mean hundreds in each category.
In my opinion, it is faulty field training that leaves IBOs unable to sell our premium products. They only thing IBOs know is to try to sell on price. That would be like trying to sell a Cadillac against a Chevrolet based on price alone.
[to be continued]
August 24th, 2007 at 8:50 pm
Sam and Aubree,
What rules of conduct have TEAM affiliated IBO’s broken? Just curious.
August 24th, 2007 at 8:50 pm
Mr. Simmons: We have your comment from 7:10 p.m. ET this evening still in queue. Out of respect for the parties involved, we wanted to run it by our legal department to validate it as coming from your real email address. Once we get the go-ahead, we’ll publish the comment in its entirety ASAP. It appears you’ve already posted to the Opportunity Zone on more than one occasion, so hopefully this won’t take long. Thank you for your understanding.
August 24th, 2007 at 8:56 pm
I just read some interesting news. Posted within the last hour. Evidently many counties around the country minus the county where Q/A just won their decisions today. TRO’s against Q/A all over the place. Perhaps you won’t be reading this stuff on the Q/A blogs. It won’t be coming from me, but I’m feeling very encouraged right now.
I fully support the TEAM’s efforts.
Again, maybe folks should read more before they post. It would weed out the ignorant posts.
August 24th, 2007 at 8:57 pm
[continued from previous post]
Point B (in TEAM lawsuit) talks about “profitability in favored in lieu of saleability.” It seems to say that a company’s decision on how to price their product or service should be outside that company’s control.
If the TEAM leaders didn’t like the premium quality and prices of our products, then why did they sign up to begin with, or, at least, why did they stay in the business? The leadership of TEAM wanted to pull a “Walmart” on Quixtar. They thought they were big enough to force Quixtar to reduce their profitability.
Profitability is essential to a company’s survival. Amway/Quixtar has been around for 48 years. They’ve never missed a bonus, they invest in new products, not all of which are successful, and they have a generous compensation system, if one uses all aspects to which they’re entitled to use.
Going back to the general lack of effective product and sales training that largely exists in the field, one might ask why don’t more Systems properly train their IBOs? Because they recruited them on the promise that they wouldn’t have to “sell” anything, but rather, just use the products yourself and sign others up to do the same.
[to be continued]
August 24th, 2007 at 9:11 pm
[continued from previous post]
TEAM and many other (but not all) Systems do this because they aren’t interested in even attempting to move Quixtar products to anyone other than someone who has a financial interest in the sale of those products. The sale of the BSM materials (which, for the purposes of my discussion, includes any gathering of IBOs where they charge a fee) are their primary products to sell. These BSMs contain little to no product or sales training material. The overwhelming content of the BSMs is promotion of the System itself, of System leaders, and of more BSM materials.
BSM materials are extremely profitable, and because IBOs want to learn how to achieve the large income they were told about and shown, they eagerly snap up these profitable BSM materials.
So, the Quixtar products, for all intents and purposes, become the lure, or one could say, the bait through which IBOs are recruited to be sold the highly profitable BSMs. Unfortunately, these profits are not shared with the rank and file below Platinum, and even there, only a token amount.
With no skill to sell products at retail, and the reluctance of people to be recruited into a scheme where income won’t come for a long time, the Quixtar (and Amway) name takes a big hit.
[to be continued]
August 24th, 2007 at 9:11 pm
In addition to this ruling on behalf of certain IBOs in Texas, several other Temporary Restraining Order (TRO’s) protecting other IBOs have been granted throughout the country, including an additional county in Texas, three counties in Michigan, Georgia, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, New Hampshire. �
In Western Michigan’s Kent County, a judge issued a court order today that said in part all parties should follow the contractual provisions. Following the contract was never disputed by Orrin and Chris. Interpretation of the judge’s order in full detail is still being handled by attorneys. As to Sullivan’s opinion he says, “the entry of such an injunction is not a final decision on the merits of this case and shouldn’t be interpreted as the Court’s opinion as to what the ultimate decision will be.” �
The TEAM will continue to host meetings and sell materials within the terms of the Quixtar Rules of Conduct. Rule 7.1 and 7.2 states that prospect and IBO plan material needs to be authorized by Quixtar. Out of respect for the Kent County court order, the TEAM will not be selling any such material. All materials not so covered by the Quixtar authorization will still be available.
August 24th, 2007 at 9:14 pm
In the United States District Court for the Easter District of Texas, U.S. magistrate judge Don D. Bush entered a temporary restraining order stating in part that
“. . . defendant, Quixtar, and defendant’s respective officers, managers, trustees, agents, servants, employees, attorneys, confederates, and all other persons in active concert or participation with them, are hereby restrained and enjoined immediately from, directly or indirectly:
1. Interfering with Plaintiff’s Team business support system;
2. Sending verbal, written, or electronic communications to business associates and upline or down-line business partners of Plaintiff’s related to violations of the rules of conduct, use of Team materials and attendance at Team meetings and conferences, and threats to suspend or terminate any Quixtar distributor’s business based on Team materials;
3. Terminating or threatening to terminate the distributorships or businesses of Plaintiff’s and other IBOs who use Team materials forwarded by Plaintiffs;
4. Disparaging the Team approach;
5. Taking any adverse action against Plaintiffs pending disposition of this order;
6. Refusing to pay any bonus to Plaintiffs that may be due in the ordinary course of business;
7. Interfering with or prohibiting, in any way, the operation of the Team as a business support system for Plaintiffs or taking any action to shut down or interfere with the Team’s business”
August 24th, 2007 at 9:19 pm
I find most interesting that everyone has something to say…but are not willing to say their name. I was brought up to believe that your opinions do not have merit unless you have courage to claim them. Let’s please stop the bickering…if any of us have read Dale Carnegie’s book How to Win Friends and Influence People, you will remember that no one ever wins an arguement. It is clear that each side believes they are right. So let us just go out and build our two separate businesses and focus our energy on that rather than fighting. By the way, I am a proud TEAM member who chooses to not slander AMQuix hoping for the same treatment in return. “Do unto others…”
August 24th, 2007 at 9:21 pm
DY #52,
Did you read the judge’s decision? It is complete with references to the law, and if this case was appealed to a higher court, the judge could get in real trouble if he acted irresponsibly. It’s a pretty clear case to me, I doubt TEAM will spend their precise tool profit money on an appeal, they’ll need all they can scrounge up to pay for the California case, especially since they’re not bringing any money in any more. May have to even sell the Florida tool house and tool furnishings.
August 24th, 2007 at 9:22 pm
[continued from previous post]
Regarding the point, “Quixtar advises IBOs to Self Consume Instead of Retail.” That point is absolutely ridiculous. Quixtar may bemoan that most IBOs self-consume, but in my 35 years as a distributor/IBO, I have never read or heard any Amway/Quixtar communication that advised to substitute self consumption for retail. Conversely, I was part of a System for a number of years, and that IS what that System taught.
They aren’t interested in an IBO spending their time retailing, because, a.) it would take time away from the IBO attending meetings or taking other action that would result in the sale of BSMs, and b.) retail customers aren’t going to buy BSMs. The priority here is to make sure the activity supports the sale of BSM materials.
But now we have an interesting paradox. TEAM’s lawsuit claims Quixtar is a pyramid, ostensibly because their products “can’t” be sold to retail customers. But TEAM’s BSM products certainly won’t be bought by those outside the business!
[to be continued]
August 24th, 2007 at 9:35 pm
Far from over my friends!
Good thing the whole Team doesn’t live in Kent County!
TRO Filed – Berks County, PA - Granted
TRO Filed Gwinnette County, GA - Granted
TRO Filed Wright County, GA - Granted
TRO Filed Columbia, SC - Granted
TRO Filed Collin County, TX – Granted, Simmons v. Quixtar
TRO Filed in Genessee County, MI - Granted
TRO Filed in Oakland County, MI - Granted
TRO Filed Wayne County, MI - Granted, August 20, 2007, Gowan v. Quixtar, case no. 07-722348
TRO Filed Montgomery County, TX - Granted August 21, 2007, Walker v. Quixtar
TRO Filed U.S. District Court, New Hampshire - Granted August 21, 2007, Fish v. Quixtar, no. 07-CV-262
Pending TROs: Reading, PA; Hartford, CT; Lansing, MI; Maricopa County, AZ
Never underestimate a Team with a Dream!
August 24th, 2007 at 9:39 pm
Lewis #54,
Seeing the theory of what TEAM was doing and finding out what they actually did was 2 different things. Thrown off, jumped off. Who cares, they’re all wet.
Jake #55,
Did you used to call your friends and tell them you wanted to talk about your Quixtar business? Come up with something better, please.
Clint #59,
1. See answer to #54 above, there is a huge difference between theory and practice. They told them about the rules they were breaking prior to the price discussion coming up. I think this has a lot more to do with the name change than TEAM wants to admit.
2. It’s a unique business, what’s your point?
3. Enron is an excellent analogy. There were literally teams (pardon the pun) of lawyers, accountants, etc., from multiple companies that “blessed” what was going on. Many of them didn’t see what was really going on behind the curtain. Much like what is STILL going on with the other tool systems, raking in massive tool cash and pretending it is coming from Quixtar.
4. Okay, they were absorbed by TEAM. Better? Everyone was amazed with Enron for a while, too. Another part of that great analogy that is consistent with TEAM.
5. No problem with that issue, the tool companies are more alike than different.
In the meantime, I won’t be holding my breath on the class action suit.
August 24th, 2007 at 9:43 pm
lol #60,
Scared of what?
Jerad #64,
Okay, you changed my mind with your silly ranting….NOT!
Anastasia
August 24th, 2007 at 9:44 pm
[continued from previous post]
And to TEAM’s final point, about “the nature of a classic, illegal, pyramid scheme,” their argument makes no logical sense. They begin with an accurate definition: An illegal pyramid scheme is characterized by the payment of money to a company in exchange for: a) the right to sell a product, and b) the right to receive awards for recruiting others to join the scheme, independent from the sale of products to the ultimate user.
Has an IBO ever earned a penny just from signing someone up in the Quixtar business? No. Has an IBO ever earned retail profit, Performance Bonus, Ruby Bonus, Emerald Bonus, etc., without the sale of a product happening? No.
Paragraph 71 in the lawsuit is a non sequitur, meaning a conclusion that does not logically follow from the previous statement. Independent from my earlier proof that the products are marketable. Bonuses are not paid unless there is product sold.
But as I, and many others will attest, the products are sellable. Even as I was writing these posts, a customer called, reordering an E-85 water filter. I took the order, at suggested retail price, thank you!
Without winning the fundamental argument about Quixtar being a pyramid scheme, Point E, that Quixtar violates the 1979 FTC decision “Amway” is moot. Quixtar has never, ever encouraged IBOs to “make a significant investment in inventory.” Quixtar rules prohibit inventory loading.
Conversely, many Systems do encourage new IBOs to make significant BSM purchases. Again, TEAM accusing Quixtar of practices it engages in itself.
[to be continued]
August 24th, 2007 at 9:48 pm
This is a sad day in the Biz the A/Q need to lower the prices and pay the IBO’S.
The IBOA board needs to have the power to keep the company in check because they have never built this Biz! WAKE UP A/Q or this Biz will not last.
August 24th, 2007 at 9:55 pm
In addition to this ruling on behalf of certain IBOs in Texas, several other Temporary Restraining Order (TRO’s) protecting other IBOs have been granted throughout the country, including an additional county in Texas, three counties in Michigan, Georgia, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, New Hampshire. �
Of course this is just speculation, but I have a feeling that MANY more of these same rulings are about to come in from around the country…….
August 24th, 2007 at 10:01 pm
Its funny that you non TEAM members listen to this crap from this company. If you knew anything you would know that this ruling was the only one like it across the country. Others states ruled in favor of the team. All this ruling is saying is that the team can not temporarily use the training system that was set up by Orrin and Chris. Its funny that for 13 years these two gentleman ran one of the largest businesses in quixtar, have been joined by some of the biggest teams (Legacy) and when they approach the company about concerns with a name change and prices, they are now running an illegal business. The federal trade commission has looked at the training system and the business and says everything is legit. So truly research what you guys are listening too because it may be you guys that are getting the wool pulled over your eyes.
August 24th, 2007 at 10:03 pm
lol #60,
Scared of what?
Jerad #64,
Okay, you changed my mind with your silly ranting….NOT!
Anastasia #66,
The new rules are not available yet. Cutting it close to September 1 if you ask me.
Concerned IBO #67,
I think your diaper needs changing.
Lee #68,
I’ll take you up on Microsoft stock for $1.
Ron #70,
You will get your post, unless legal determines it may not be a wise thing to post, given the TEAM lawsuit. Unlike the freetheibo forum, where they banned several people for asking questions. Did you ever see my question to you requesting the amount of tool profit Platinums and above “earned”?
FreedomFighter #71,
Feel better? Much of what you think is true isn’t.
rpr7768 #72,
Not any more, TEAM’s gone.
The Big Apple #74,
There’s not a Federal Court outside of California? The “lawzilla” document addresses some situations outside of California as well. Give the tool companies a break, they’ve only had almost half a century to come up with a training plan on how to sell.
Brad #77,
Got some links?
August 24th, 2007 at 10:06 pm
moved to Texas eh. the name quixtar/Amway will be getting a lot of press in the south now. Too bad it will be attached to negitive information. Which State next eventually we end up in California. Who knows by the time it’s all through everyone will have a bad taste in their mouth for Amway/Quixtar once again
August 24th, 2007 at 10:08 pm
[continued from previous post]
Finally, TEAM’s resounding defeat in the Michigan court on simple matters of contract law speaks volumes about their wisdom and state of mind regarding what they are trying to do. It could be that their lawyers see a group of rich businessmen with deep pockets and a passion for what they believe in, and the lawyers tell the TEAM leaders what they want to hear. Whether TEAM wins or loses, the lawyers win.
For all the TEAM Platinums who have been contacted by Quixtar, be glad they did. What if you are one of those who isn’t planning on following Woodward and the others, but your upline was allowed to come in and recruit people out of your organization. You’d be hopping mad, and the only one to help you would be Quixtar.
The Line of Sponsorship may belong to Quixtar, but your business belongs to you. Quixtar is protecting your business, and the business of many others, through their actions. You can make a business decision to stay or not. Quixtar would not be reducing it’s own sales and profitability unless it was worth it to them.
The U.K. and U.S. regulators talk to each other. The action taken in the UK was not by their equivalent of the FTC, the DTI (Dept. of Trade and Industry) is like the financial arm of the FBI. The charges against Amway UK were criminal, and the company was withing three weeks of being completely shut down! And all because of a failure to take action against BSM abuses.
I believe Quixtar will be taking more serious action against U.S. BSM problems in the near future to forestall possible FTC action. So what’s the best course of action for IBOs to take? Include selling products to retail customers for a profit in your mix of business activities.
Thanks for listening, and good evening. It’s way past dinnertime!
August 24th, 2007 at 10:09 pm
big apple you are not reading all the facts. look at this info on all the things that bring question to quixtar and the legality of the company as an illegal pyramid.
http://forums.freetheibo.info/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=101
go to this web site and read the entire article.
August 24th, 2007 at 10:20 pm
C’mon Tex. I made some points. Care to counter-point? “NOT” isn’t really a counter-point.
Again, what makes you more familiar than I with TEAM methods? Simply answer the question.
August 24th, 2007 at 10:27 pm
One last thing before I log out. You guys say that BSM’s wont be bought from people outside the business. Thats funny have you heard o Launching The Leadership Reveloution. That book was given to TEAM IBO’s when they signed up. It is about to be launched by Time Warner in Sept. Oh Yeah all the profitsa that Orrin and Chris would make off of this book is going to charity. Thats the type of leaders these guys are. Who wouldnt want to follow that kind of character and integrity.
August 24th, 2007 at 10:31 pm
I find it very distressing that so many of you on this and other Blogs are so quick to throw out negative comments, at Quixtar/Amway, at Team, at each other, . . . if the only thing you have to add is criticism then I’d like to suggest you move on to something else.
This is a very serious situation for many of us. We come to this Blog looking for information and answers, not mud slinging from either side.
During our time in the business we have utilized tools from different sources. ALL of those tools used the same sort of system that the TEAM is now being condemned for by so many. The System (of tools) is optional. In any business a wise person would take the time to learn from someone who is already successful in that field and then emulate the actions or behavior that made them successful. This business is no different and that philosophy is taught in most lines of sponsorship, not just TEAM. The fact that there is money in the tools is true in all organizations that use tools. TEAM worked to make that known instead of hidden.
We have put 12 years in to our Amway and then Quixtar business. Over the years the rules have changed. Now we are faced with the decision of returning to the Amway name, along with many other changes. We choose no, others will choose yes. That is our and your right. We also choose not to stay with a company that does not show the character and integrity that was there when we first got involved in the business. Will we go with TEAM? That is yet to be determined.
The truth is we all loose. And the more comments that are made on this and other blogs that are so negative and hateful toward other IBOs, the worse that is going to make this and other MLMs for all of us.
We were all drawn to this business, not only for the possible income, but for the character & integrity we saw in the company and people. Whether or not you still see that, I challenge you each to remember to maintain your own character and integrity.
As for TEAM members, your/our leaders have worked hard to teach us about true character. Remember, when you speak ill of anyone, you represent the integrity of the entire TEAM. Pocket your anger and check your words. Please.
August 24th, 2007 at 10:31 pm
oh yeah Tex! They do make the profit sharing bonuses available to Platinums and above, but I guess you would have to be a TEAM IBO to know that info! You guys comment on all this stuff and dont know anything cause you are not a team IBO.
August 24th, 2007 at 10:33 pm
and that info is made known to all team ibo’s not just platinum and above.
August 24th, 2007 at 10:56 pm
I’ll bet you’d like to know the answer to that question. Too bad it doesn’t matter.
I am going for Quixtar/Amway worldwide tool profit reform, so it doesn’t suit my needs to answer your question at this time.
You made no points. You stomped and fumed around, thinking if you were FORCEFUL enough, and said it often enough, you MUST be right. Sorry, that’s not how the truth works. The Michigan judge is one data point to support that statement. You will be getting many more if Orrin decides to go forward with his silly and baseless California lawsuit.
August 24th, 2007 at 11:02 pm
IBO - Independent Business Owner
Means: No group or training organization or ANYONE can determine what kind of success I MAKE for myself.
It means that even if my leaders were to get sued, terminated or WHATEVER, I am in charge of MY business. I am not in someone else’s business. I am in MY business. I determine my OWN success.
I fully applause the corp reinforcing good business ethics. They would NEVER do something to harm their company. Remember, they are employees not business owners. They have just as much of a vested interest.
Did it ever occur to anyone that you just might not know 100% about what is going on here? From my perspective, my OPINION, anyone that doesn’t have the integrity to stick to the contract that they agreed to and signed their OWN name on the dotted line, doesn’t have much credibility with me. So why in the world would I trust a single word that an uncredible person says?
Pull up your own boot straps and make things happen in YOUR OWN business. Build it as the corp has outlined. You are in charge of what happens, not your diamonds.
August 24th, 2007 at 11:09 pm
Karen, thank you for that perspective. Keep what she says in mind people, wherever your allegiances are. Post constructively. Remember where you get your information from, and then try some objectivity! The more dirt that gets thrown about the less likely somebody who actually knows and understands whats happening will post. I’m sure that the mud slinging will continue, so just don’t respond to it. They’ll eventually tire of not getting attention and leave.
August 24th, 2007 at 11:10 pm
rnffemt: It was mildly amusing the first time.
Mr. Simmons: Understood. As soon as legal responds, your comment will post as-is. Again, thank you for your patience.
Folks: We’ll resume in the morning. You night owls in the Americas as well as our colleagues around the world, please continue to post comments as you normally would.
August 24th, 2007 at 11:21 pm
Tex, I think that I do know the answer to my own question I was just seeing if you were honest enought to answer it for yourself. You weren’t. I’m not surprised.
I’m not stomping my feet nor am I being forceful. It’s simply called honesty. I’m even honest enough to use my real name.
My point is that I think YOU are willingly telling lies about me and hiding behind Q* to do it. For obvious reasons I take that personally and would like to see you post proof or retract.
August 24th, 2007 at 11:31 pm
FOR THE RECORD, THERE SHOULD ONLY BE ADULTS POSTING ON HERE. LEAVE YOUR WHINING AND ILL BAHAVIORS OFF OF HERE.
Q IS A GOOD ORDERING PORTAL. ANYONE CAN MAKE PRODUCTS AND SHIP THEM. ANYONE!
LETS SEE HOW TEAM’S VOLUME IS GOING TO LAY OFF EMPLOYEES AT ALTICOR.
AND PLEASE, MY OTHER FRIENDS THAT ARE IN OTHER SPONSERING ORGANIZATIONS ARE SICKENED BY “BIG BROTHERS” BEHAVIOR.
MY VOLUME WILL BE BOYCOTTED FOR THE MONTH OF SEPTEMBER. I AM JUST ONE OF HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS. ONE MONTH OF VOLUME WILL AWAKEN THE OWNER OF DBO’S, DEPENDENT BUSINESS OWNERS.
August 24th, 2007 at 11:33 pm
Tex #101:
The lawsuit that Quixtar won in Michigan is the only one out of very many. They’ve been losing the fight all over the country except for in their own back yard: grand blanc.
Your arguments have yet to counter mine. Things like, “you’re wrong,” etc don’t say much to your intelligence.
August 24th, 2007 at 11:51 pm
Has anyone else on the Team noticed new customers showing up in your group? I’ve heard a buzz that at least 25 ‘new’ customers have been assigned within the Team organization in the last couple weeks.
Hmmmm, Team files a class action lawsuit alleging Q/A of being an internal consumption company, then people who’ve never had customers before start getting new customers without any notice. Coincidence?
What could be going on here? Could someone be trying to make the numbers look a little better before they take an important trip out west?
Anybody else noticed this in your group?
By the way, don’t forget it’s almost the end of the month. Time to do your member/client volume reporting if you weren’t lucky enough to get some new customers assigned to you by Q/A! I doubt the new customers will last long once they see the prices!
August 25th, 2007 at 12:06 am
Hey TEX,
We ALL know you HATE Team and everything it stands for, it’s leaders, its members and even are hateful toward other ibo’s who are not a part of Team but see a valid point to all of this. I just don’t see, or understand your vendetta towards the Team or Ibo’s looking for the truth, we have seen very little “truth” in your comments, just vicious intentions. I know I am one of many, that have lost ANY interest in the things you say. I was trying to keep an open mind to your views but one can only handle so many negative comments. All I hear you say any more is Blah, Blah, Blah.
August 25th, 2007 at 12:26 am
I am certainly NOT surprised that a judge in Grand Rapids would rule in favor of Quixtar. Is that really a victory? Did you think a GR judge would do any differently? (I’m not disparaging the judge. I’m sure he’s a practical man and he knows who pays the bills.)
For those of you who state that IBOs should just honor the contract they signed–the point is, we DID NOT sign the contract we are being held to. Quixtar unilaterally changed the deal, and we are being held to it; obviously without representation.
In any other business contract, one party cannot change the terms of the contract without the other party’s agreement. Unless of course one of the parties is Quixtar/Amway. (Yes, I know, I should have re-read the compendium every year when my automatic renewal kicked in. Silly me.) It’s kind of like saying, “Here, sign this agreement. Never mind what it says today; our side can change the rules at any time and you will be held to the new rules too.)
By the way, that is exactly what the contract says as it is written today. But it did not say that back in 1999, when I signed.
I was under the assumption (there I go again!) that the IBOAI was there to protect IBOs from just that sort of thing. Guess I was wrong.
For those of you who are happy to see bad old TEAM put in it’s place, remember, the rules can change at any time. Next year it could be YOUR methods they don’t like.
August 25th, 2007 at 1:45 am
#101 Tex,
I’m amazed you reference the “1″ judge in Michigan. How do you ignore the dozens of others nation wide who disagree. Are they all on TEAM payroll? hehe. Keep posting, your helping our cause.
August 25th, 2007 at 1:59 am
My mom always told me to “Never cry over spilled milk!”
The “Milk” is spilled everyone!
Enough already, Let’s stop going back and forth…
By now, every person here has made their decision on what they want to do.
Some of us look at the new Amway ship as the Titanic. We asked the experts ( IBOAI Board ) to go check out the hull after WE were hit by the “transformation” ice burg. ( Yes, A/Q hit us )
None of the Board was happy with what they saw and eight yelled ” The ship is sinking!”
I looked around, did my due diligence, agreed with the eight, then headed for the life boats.
Some on this blog or others, see the transformation as a way to make the Amway ship better.
Get rid of the “rule breakers”, limit the systems, add some new money to the pot, toss in a few more products you can sell..
In your mind, you did your due diligence and can’t wait to go. You are 100% entitled to that opinion and I wish you the best of luck!
Really! I hope you all achieve your dreams.
( As a side note, many on my “Team” have decided to stay, I respect that decision and pray for their success as well.)
All, I would hope ( and considering A/Q’s recent actions I use that term loosely ) Is that A/Q would sail their ship the direction they have set and not circle around, pull out the guns, and keep firing at all of us in the lifeboats.
If they do, I believe they will lose sight of their destination, damage countless lives, and it will be fatal to most that stayed on board.
( Spilled Milk A/Q…Those of us that want to go REALLY want to go )
For us on team, It will be burdensome for a while, But we are headed in two totally different directions now;
You have a product business that has people…. We want a people business that has products.
What you have seen the last few weeks reflects this!
That’s just my opinion,
Jefe
August 25th, 2007 at 2:01 am
To those of you that would like a little history of past men of great character who tried to fix the tool income problem within the organization….go to this link for a youtube video.
To all those that claim they are not in a cult and can think for themselves then have the courage to listen to those of you that have come before, tried and failed. Because they failed….this is why all of this is happening now….Quixtar must clean it up or risk being shut down like in the UK.
http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/archives/2006/05/andrews_explains_quixtar_tool_problems.php
August 25th, 2007 at 2:05 am
David #85 — Thanks for that enlightening and encouraging information to end my night! You rock!
And TEAM will rock on to victory and success for all of us!!
August 25th, 2007 at 3:49 am
I believe when this business was first started the distributor really got 30% retail and could really get 25% and an additional 4%. Rich and Jay really let the distributors earn 60 to 64 % of the total amount.
Many things have changed over the years and the past is the past; I do not know what the future will bring. I know that I am a better person than I was 20 years ago because of the support material. I probably spent more money on the support material than I should have but in 20 years I still have not spent close to what I spent going to College for 4 years in the 70‘s and what I learned from my association with the people in this business is worth 5 times what I learned at college.
My up-line also gave me books and tapes [one of the books] - How to win Friends and Influence People. Three different people asked me if I had read this book before I read and studied it. (I really needed to read it; I was a lot like several people that post on this and other sites) I always had to be right and I did not care who I hurt.
Think about what you post. A lot of people have worked hard and depend on the money that they make. I was a general contractor but I had an accident in 2003; I have 100k + medical each year - I am a quad.
I have a question - this is totally new - posted for the first time today. When I went online to look at my down-line’s PV to see who I needed to call. People real close to the next PV bracket this is what I saw.
Confidentiality Agreement
The information contained within this section includes Line of Sponsorship (LOS) data, which constitutes trade secret, confidential, and proprietary business information that is developed, compiled, maintained, and owned exclusively by Quixtar and protected under Rule 4.27.1 of the IBO Rules of Conduct. By opening the files, viewing these pages, or otherwise downloading or accessing the LOS data, you agree to maintain the information in strictest confidence and to take all reasonable steps and appropriate measures to safeguard the information and maintain the confidentiality thereof. You agree not to compile, organize, access, create lists of, or otherwise use or disclose the LOS data contained within this section except as authorized by Quixtar, and only as necessary to facilitate your Quixtar business. Use of LOS data in connection with any other business or activity is strictly prohibited.
I do not accept these terms
I accept these terms
How is my down line your confidential material, a trade secret.
People are not Property.
Quixtar STOP insulting us. DO YOU WANT US TO QUIT!
August 25th, 2007 at 6:28 am
Quixtar name change to Amway
It is a shame that the DeVos and VanAndel families made this decision without any communication with the field, including the IBOAI board. This name change creates obvious challenges to growing one’s business. It is a hurdle that was placed in the in front of already struggling people. Furthermore, the name change dramatically hurts the trust between the field and the company—not a good thing. For the past eight years IBOs have been telling people that this is not Amway; that it is an independent corporation being a subsidiary of Alticor Corp and a sister company to Amway. Many were told Quixtar is just Amway online and we were all taught to point out that Quixtar is actually a unique business model designed specifically for the internet. Although it takes many aspects of the Amway business and incorporated them, it is its own unique business. With Quixtar now folding back into Amway, it makes everyone look like a liar. How do you tell those people that you actually are in Amway online? What do you tell those people who asked, “Is this Amway?” before registering, and you said, “No?” Now they are in Amway. These uncomfortable and frankly unnecessary situations the IBOs will find themselves in will be difficult. The feelings will not be good. And, the trust with the owners for suddenly “changing the deal” is definitely damaged.
August 25th, 2007 at 8:34 am
>>> Craig Eddy: You signed a CONTRACT with Quixtar, as a distributor… If you didn’t agree with the terms, then why did you sign it?
August 25th, 2007 at 9:45 am
Shocking, Amway won in Grand Rapids! I heard their lawyers called TEAM a “cancer” and the IBO’s their “property”. I am so glad they are on my side. Hmm……
This blog doesn’t mention the rulings TEAM has won. What about a report on those?
August 25th, 2007 at 10:10 am
#104….administrator…..if my posts were so amusing then why not post them? All I did was spin the statements of Alticor with the truth from the ten other TRO’s already granted throughout the country AGAINST QUIXTAR…..
August 25th, 2007 at 10:19 am
10 TROs issued AGAINST Quixtar and more are pending. It would have been political suicide for the judge in GR to go against the company that pretty much owns most of the town.
Now I know that Q is promoting this victory as a COMPLETE LOST FOR TEAM, yada, yada, yada and that Woodward and company are finished but from my calculations the score is 10 to 3 in favor of the IBOs AND the most important case is yet to be heard in CA.
August 25th, 2007 at 10:53 am
team ibo #97/98/100,
I wonder how many less books Time Warner is now going to print, since Orrin’s captive audience is essentially gone. I thought you were logging out after message #97, then you post 98 and 100. First you say the tool profits are known to Platinums and above, then you say they are available to everybody. Do tell us the numbers, team ibo. Unless you are ashamed of this information.
KarenW #98,
Some truth about how much money was being made on tools would help the issue. Do you know this information?
boogybren #102,
Bingo.
Jerad #105,
You lost. Go away. Or stay and the unanswered questions will continue. I will retract nothing. I have seen the abuses I reported to Quixtar with my own eyes and ears.
SuperM #106,
Go for it. I expect the products that back up in the warehouses will soon be on clearance for IBO’s like myself to scoop up in a month or two, just in time for Christmas!
Clint #107/Brad #111,
I have asked the Moderator what the impact of these other TRO decisions will have, I will wait for their answer. In the meantime, I consider you WRONG.
KNP #108,
The new customers are probably due to all of the publicity TEAM has brought to Quixtar over the past couple of weeks. Thanks for the marketing help. Are you saying you don’t have any customers? If true, were you taught, like I was, how to lie on the computer and report customer volume that doesn’t exist?
SK #109,
I like the principles TEAM claims, it is how they don’t carry out these principles that is the problem. Take integrity and character, which seems to be the favorite idea of the day. Is it called integrity to make most of your money from tools and not tell prospects and IBO’s of this “minor factoid”?
George’s Girl #110,
You’re right, the IBOAI has not done their job. They should ALL be fired from their positions. They have been so busy raking in the tool profits they “forgot” they were supposed to be representing US, the IBO’s in their groups.
Jefe #112,
If you would paddle your lifeboats away from the ship, Quixtar wouldn’t care. But you’re shooting back at the ship (California lawsuit), so the Quixtar ship will defend itself, with the 16″ guns if necessary. Paddle, Jefe, paddle. Stop shooting.
MarDJay #113,
Andy was part of the TIF group that was trying to set up an illegal tool pyramid, by trying to pay ALL IBO’s with tool profits, and not having outside customers for those tools. Andy also said on that video, about 11-12 minutes into the video, that Diamonds make “several times” more from tools than Quixtar. Still think Orrin’s a swell guy? How about the rest of the LOS/LOA’s? I don’t.
August 25th, 2007 at 11:02 am
Cathy #114,
The only rocks you have are the ones Jefe’s lifeboats are about to thrown into.
Perry #115,
They don’t want us to quit, they want us to follow the rules. If we don’t, it will hurt all of our businesses.
mex #116,
You tell people things have changed and Quixtar is now Amway. If they have a problem with this, you have lost people who aren’t grown up enough to be business owners.
August 25th, 2007 at 11:05 am
Moderator: where is Ron Simmons post? I would like to read that please.
Jefe: well said